Is the cost of model railroading out of reach for most?

[Anonymous]

This hobby can cost you as little or as much as you want to spend, I to am on a tight budget. Plus I model logging, which beyond the high cost of a decent logging engine is very affordable. I have tried the cheaper geared engines, ie bachman spectrum shay and a rivarossi heisler, the rivarossi ran the best, but for the money should have run better. Rather than have several locos, I chose a small narrow gauge line theme, on Brass, PRM Cowichan RR, Shay, they run well to start with, and with a small can motor and making it 8 wheel pickup will run very reliably, cost around $400, the rest of the stuff to make a logging layout can come out of your scrap box for the most part. Train shows make great hunting grounds for cheaper trains. Most older models can be made to run will with a little TLC. So I feel the hobby, while it is getting more expensive if you want the newest and greatest models. The models with sound from Broadway Limited are just stunning, they arent a requirement to have fun with this hobby. When I run my shay, I hear the sounds in my mind. Cheers Mike

[bcammack]

One point to bear in mind as well is that the industry isn't producing $30 pieces of rolling stock and $300-$500 locomotives because nobody is buying them. Only Iomega does that and they're in the computer biz, not model railroading. [:)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BRAKIE

Now,One doesn't need a $150.00 engine and $30.00 cars to enjoy the hobby.Few good Athearns,catch some P2K locomotives at deep discount,some Blue Box cars,Atlas track and your good to go.

[#ditto]

[nkpltrr]

I have enjoyed reading all the responses to this thread. It is interesting to see people on both sides of the fence. Several good points have been made concerning building kits vs rtr equipment and buying engines at deep discounts (provided you are willing to buy undecs or roads you dont model). As always, the markets will bear only what people support but one thing I find interesting is that we see fewer and fewer young people getting into the hobby. Are we losing the ability to build kits. There is another thread going about this issue. Those that do get into the hobby may be more interested in RTR than building kits and thus inflate the markets. It has been very interesting reading peoples opinions. As diversified as our hobby is, also has been the many ways people achieve what they want out of the hobby. I agree that our standards have changed as far as detailing goes which may be one reason for increased cost. I still feel that the industry is leaning to the higher end products but I am sure it is because they feel the market is going that way as well.

[darth9x9]

I have been amazed at how frugal some model railroaders are. Some are quite imaginative and can build very good looking models for pennies. I guess it all depends on your imagination and willingness to try something new and/or different.

BC

[MAbruce]

Here comes one of my favorite subjects again… [dinner]

“Is the cost of model railroading out of reach for most”?

I am going to take this question as it relates to the general public, not the model railroading community in itself (of which it is an issue, but not as sizeable).

The answer is a big YES. However, I agree that this hobby has always been expensive. But I also think there are factors today that make the cost issue bigger than ever.

Things in this hobby are going pretty good for MRR manufactures right now. The “Baby Boom” generation (by far the largest current segment of the MRR population) is at a point where most have significant disposable income to spend on a hobby. But I think this only a temporary situation. In about ten years, this generation will start to pass in greater numbers and it will have a profound impact on the MRR population. Even if this hobby attracts a record number of new people, it’s going to be a huge challenge to replace the numbers that the baby boomers represent today. And what do you think will happen with their vast collections of loco’s and rolling stock when they pass? Estate sales and ebay. Double jeopardy for MRR manufacturers: A rapidly declining MRR customer base and a wealth of cheap second hand goods to compete with.

Another factor playing against this hobby is today's culture. Trains are not as widely visible as they were in the baby boom childhood days, so more and more young people these days just can’t relate to them. Add to this something that “orsonroy” observed in his post:

QUOTE: In reality, the days of a $1200 car and $20,000 house are long gone. Everything's more expensive. And have you taken a good look at what every other hobby costs these days? How about $18 for a CD, $24 for a DVD, $80 for a Play Station game? Most people I know who entertain themselves this way have collections of these items with numbers that rival our large freight car collection (2000 CDs isn't uncommon).

While this post was primarily an argument about how expenses have increased for everything, it also effectively illustrates something about today’s competing hobbies. Sure, DVD’s and play station games are not exactly cheap, but they are selling far better. Why? Because they appeal far better to our instant gratification culture. These hobbies are truly “RTR”. Hobbies like ours are not as appealing because besides cost, they require a significant investment of time and effort. So when people consider a $24 DVD or a $24 RTR freight car, you don’t need to be a rocket scientist to guess which will win out a majority of the time.

This is where I think cost is now hurting more than ever. Model railroading is a tough enough “sell” for younger people these days, but it becomes more so when it matches (and sometimes exceeds) the cost of rival hobbies. I still think it’s easy to get kids interesting in model railroading. It’s what happens when they (or their parents) walk into a hobby shop and look over the prices that will undo their initial interest: Classic sticker shock. While it’s going to be the same sticker shock they will get when looking at video game systems, I think the video games win out because they get more out of them sooner (little assembly required). You can try to sell the virtue of the satisfaction they will get in building a model railroad, but it’s going to be an uphill battle unless you have something else to “sell” them on. I think that key selling point has to be lower cost.

So in this time of increasing prices and limited runs, I think that MRR manufacturers had better be careful. The market may be ripe today to support these pricing strategies, but it’s not going to last too much longer. Time is ticking away for the baby boomers, and the generations behind them are not going to be as willing to put out nearly as much cash when they will get quality used equipment for pennies on the dollar when the estate sales pick up.

[Anonymous]

MABruce

I think your analysis is dead on accurate.

[BRAKIE]

Guys,Think of this..In this era of high cost RTR engines and cars,built to order layouts,high dollar building kits and the slow introduction of prebuilt buildings one can not help but wonder what type of signals is being sent out to the manufacturers..[?]
Think of this..After the buyout of Athearn and MDC by Horizon how many more distributors is getting this idea? After all IF few distributors controls the market by buyouts of manufacturers or the right to become the sole distributor of any brand we can start to see the deep discounts go by the way of the Dodo bird in the next few years..Not to be a alarmist but,I fear that is what the hobby is coming to.Reason? Let's say the MSRP of a locomotive is $139.95 but at discount you can buy it at $99.95 somebody is losing money.[}:)] Now,if the distributors can control the market then they can get a deeper slice of the pie if they own the manufacturer or becomes the sole distributor of a given brand name.So now with a MSRP of $139.95 the dealer would have to up his price closer to full MSRP due to the distributor getting a bigger slice of the pie to recover his costs plus the railroad'slicensing fee.
Scary? You better bet it is and very little can stop this from happening..The only question remains who's next on the buyout list by a distributor? Atlas? Life Like? Kato USA? Stewart? Accurail? Kadee? Mirco Trains? Model Power? Bachmann? [}:)]
IF this comes to past (and I am sure it will) who will be able to AFFORD the hobby? [:(][:(]

[Anonymous]

HELLO : I HAVE FOUND THAT SCRATCH BUILDING TO BE VERY REWARDING IF YOU HAVE THE TIME ,THE MATERIALS CAN BE HAD FOR ALMOST NOTHING , IF YOU KNOW WHAT TO LOOK FOR ,AND ARE NOT TO PROUD TO PICK OVER WHAT OTHER PEOPLE THROUGH AWAY , AND THAT IS ALOT OF GOOD MATERIALS ,EVEN TOOLS POWER ,AND THE LIKE , THERE IS ENJOYMENT IN ALL PARTS OF MODEL RAILROADING . YES PRICES SEEM TO HAVE GONE UP ,BUT SO HAS EVERYTHING ELSE , BUT IF YOU ARE TRULY WANTING TO GET INTO THE HOBBY YOU WILL FIND A WAY GOOD LUCK AND ENJOY THE HOBBY

[tstage]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dave9999

It also depends on how much "stuff " you need. I prefer a few higher end locos to
a lot of cheaper ones. I don't need a fleet of locomotives, so I have purchased a
"Mike" by Athearn, BLI NYC Hudson, and a Rivarossi Allegheny. Others are mostly
Proto 2000 deisels that I have found on sale.

Dave

Dave,

You took the words right out of my mouth: need vs. want. I only have two locos: an Athearn Mikado and a Proto 2000 S1 switcher (of which I got from Trainworld for 75% off list!). For my layout, I don't really NEED much more than that.

My aunt gave me some wise council many years ago: "Buy the best you can afford" - and I try and do that. Whenever I shop for locos, rolling stock, or structures, I look for bargains but I spend extra in order to buy quality stuff. I may not have as much as other MR's, but what I have both looks good and runs well - and should for many years to come..

Tom

[randybc2003]

Check quality discount stores, swap meets, i-net, etc. Quality products can be had at very economical prices. I have purchased excellent locos for $20. A local discounter can give us Bachman Spectrum at 50% discount. Check for close-out sales, etc. Roundhouse, Athern, and (I think) Acurail produce good rolling stock. For buildings, learn to scratchbuild, or other economies. It is well known an avid scratchbuilder can put a hoby shop out of business.
Learn to hand-lay track. (this includes making ties & spiking rails) Ballast with sand, or as with one layout I saw, Coffee Grounds!! [%-)]
R.B.C.

[Jetrock]

An avid scratchbuilder can help keep other parts of the hobby shop well-stocked, though: that scratcher will need wheels and detail parts for his engines and rolling stock, plus wood and styrene and other raw materials, and paint, and decals, and brushes, and glue...Any hobby shop worth its salt certainly doesn't mind selling those things, and there are non-scratchbuilders to buy those $500 Trix engines. Scratchbuilders and kitbashers still spend money--just not as much, or as often.

[Anonymous]

As a former Manufacturing Engineer, when we actually made things in this country, Labor for most companies only represented 3-5% of the cost of the product. If your product is made in Europe, the USA, or China, the labor costs will only affect that 3-5 % range. For many reasons, which I will not get into at this time, buy going to China or some other 3rd world country will not show a dramatic drop in manufacturing costs. But you will see lower quality. That is why I finished buying my Rivarossi's that I wanted before the production goes to China. Watch the quality really go down hill! And you'll see that the costs will probably rise on the Rivarossi's being shipped in from China. Keep your old Wather's Catalogs for price comparison next year.

[Hawks05]

some of you may have heard me complain about this before.

i'm in HS, i get paid $4.50 an hour and get raped when it comes to tips, i deliver pizzas, i have to give 20% of what i make to the cook. i worked 17:15 hours and made $70, if i was making what a normal person would make i would have gotten $102, so yes i'm a little mad about that.

anyways, when it comes to trains i never buy anything because i'm on a tight budget, i'm already about 3-4 months behind on car payments to my parents because i didn't work all summer due to baseball.

if i do go to the train shop i drop like $80-$100 because i know i won't be coming back for awhile. hopefully there is a show coming up because i really need to get some RTR things for $3-$5 and another loco for $45.

i can hardly afford anything at the hobby shop because one thing is like $30 and i'd rather get like 5-6 pieces for that price than one really super nice thing that i really want. the locos are the real kicker. i only have 5 and i really need to get at least 2 more, a UP, a BNSF or CSX or NS. but to order them online or from Walthers would be a huge hit to the check book.

i guess i'll just have to wait and get stuff at shows. until prices drop my layout will look like crap.

[Anonymous]

A couple of points:

1. I am not a manufacturing engineer, but if stuff being made in China at the most only results in a 3 to 5 percent reduction in costs (and I'm sure somewhat of an increase in shipping product accross the ocean), why are all these manufacturers (Athearn, Atlas, Life-Life, Revell, Monogram etc) moving production to China?

2. I see that lots of folks talk about Athearn Blue Box and MDC as alternatives to the higher priced things moving into our hobby. But it seems Athearn Blue Box and MDC are getting a little harder to find. Will another manufacturer (or a new one) step up to the plate and start producing kits that although not as well detailed as the state of the hobby are a whole lot cheaper? Is this perhaps a niche market that someone can take advantage of?

3. While I agree that there are bargains to be found out there. A newcomer to the hobby won't know about these things and most likely can only gauge the cost of this hobby on visiting a LHS. Will this potential model railroader think "i bet I can find all this equipment cheaper at a train show, whatever that is, or on the net, but I have no idea what I am looking for."?

4. It's interesting. This thread is talking about the increase in cost of products. Theres another thread where the bottom line seems to be "I want it completely RTR, totally accurate for the line I'm modeling and it must run perfectly, cost is no issue." Seems like there are two different markets out there.

[CNJ831]

dkelly had posted, in part, "There's another thread where the bottom line seems to be 'I want it completely RTR, totally accurate for the line I'm modeling and it must run perfectly, cost is no issue'. Seems like there are two different markets out there."

This observation is quite correct and is contributing a great deal to the current spiralling cost of our hobby, as I had indicated up-stream earlier. Manufacturer's see this duality as well and it is only logical for them to cater to the group who is willing to pay two, three, or even four times the price of a kit item for RTR versions, or for locomotives priced at $500+. Sadly, this will progressively come at the expense of those with more limited hobby budgets as the less expensive or basic kit items decline in availability.

As someone familiar with the hobby's evolution and prices from the 1950's forward, believe me that, in spite of what some posters may contend (and quote incorrect figures for), model railroading was always an "affordable" hobby for just about everyone up until the last ten years. In this last decade much of the pricing has advanced far more relative to average earnings than in the any preceeding decade. While scratchbuilding, scrounging, and searching for bargins were always a part of the hobby, they were _never_ the necessity for most hobbyists they have become now.

We are perhaps at a crossroads in the hobby's history. Certainly if prices continue to escalate at the current rate we will see a dramatic reduction in the number of younger people entering the hobby (already an obvious problem) and in those of retirement age leaving it because of its unrealistic costs.

CNJ831

[Anonymous]

CNJ831 (it's great to see another fan of the Big Little Railroad here!)

I agree with your closing paragraph completely!! The question is what can be done? I'm at a crossroad myself on this issue. I love the detail on the expensive stuff, but really don't want to spend that much on a hobby. I also want to have rolling stock that's a little more detailed than Athearn Blue Box or RDC. I think there are many folks out there that have the same problem, but the issue is seen as blue box or RTR, no gray area. How do we enter the gray area?

I think an article where the author showed step by step how he took an Athearn hopper and by adding a few detail parts and some decals came up with a car that looks almost as good as the expensive RTR stuff. These articles used to be pretty numerous a few years back. They have all but disappeared, I think mostly because the idea then was to come up with a better looking model, not save money. Well, now that the better detailed models are here, somefolks don't see a reason to detail their own stuff, hense the lack of articles. But heres, the kicker. In the article have a price breakdown. 12 RTR cars - $150.00. 12 Blue box cars, some packs of grab irons, some number decals, some paint - total cost $100.00. Now, if the modeler was smart he could tell his spouse - "look what I did!" She/he might not understand why a couple of hours were spent in putting on those 'funny little wire things' and stuff, but would definately enjoy the dinner out that the saving allowed!!! Wow! Same total cost and you get 12 cool looking cars plus a spouse that thinks that your genius modeling ability saves money!

There must be bunches of experienced modelers out there that could write such an article and I really do believe that such an article would have tremendous interest in our hobby. Remember the dozens of articles that came out when Athearn frist introduced their GP38-2 and SD-40-2 models. I bet Athearn sold a ton to folks that were inspired! The same can be done with Blue Box and MDC.

Hopefully, someone will get inspired and write such an article!

[Anonymous]

Until people start putting a value on what they purchase, prices will continue to rise. Most people today don't ask themselves if a certain piece is "worth the money", but instead ask themselves "can I afford it"? That's the way America is becoming. I think it started with the automotive industry. In the late 80's, the car dealers started asking people how much they wanted to spend a month instead of how much they wanted to spend period. People just decde if they can afford the monthly payment, whether the product is worth the money or not.

[jfugate]

Interesting discussion. Actually, higher prices are a mixed blesssing.

Of course, none of us wants to keep paying more for something.

But on the other hand, if the prices of rolling stock was still down in the $5 range, and the typical loco still sold for less than $50, we would not have the variety nor the improved detail we see today.

The higher prices have made it worthwhile to start up a new company or for existing companies to enter the market.

If you look at back issues of Model Railroader, you will see less selection and lower quality for many many years through the 50s and 60s and into the 70s. During that time, prices didn't change much either.

Then in the late 70s and through the 80s and 90s, prices started to creep up, and then jumped dramatically in the mid to late 90s. But as the prices went up, so has the overall quality of detail and the variety.

Just go look at the ads in an MR from the 1960s. See anything in there you would like to buy? Even at the cheaper prices, I sure don't find much that looks attactive compared to what I can get today.

[nkpltrr]

Originally posted by dkelly

CNJ831 (it's great to see another fan of the Big Little Railroad here!)

"I think an article where the author showed step by step how he took an Athearn hopper and by adding a few detail parts and some decals came up with a car that looks almost as good as the expensive RTR stuff. These articles used to be pretty numerous a few years back. They have all but disappeared, "

I don't feel there is a lack of magazine articles (he-he if you can afford the high-price magazines!) but I think one of the reasons fewer people scratch build is because we don't have the time (or don't make the time) to devote to our hobby. People's lives have become much busier, many working two or more jobs to make ends meet. More activities and things to do, including surfing the internet, online games, TiVo, Playstation, etc that take away from time that used to be spent working on that highly detailed model. Now many just want to rush out and buy that RTR model at that higher price, throw it on the track and run trains. I know I have been guilty of that once in a while, but I also know that when I complete a model that I built from a kit and added even a few details, I feel like I have accomplished something more that ripping a car out of a box and putting it on the track. So I guess we are indeed playing into the hands of the manufacturer who is seeing highly detailed and RTR is bait for modelers at just about any price the market will bear! Maybe as modelers we need to try and teach the youngsters how to add details to that Athearn Blue bx kit if we could only get them off the Playstation long enough to do that.....[8D]

• Reply