Is the cost of model railroading out of reach for most?

[nkpltrr]

I am curious how other modelers feel about the rising cost of model equipment. Certainly the models have improved greatly and with DCC and sound chips added to the cost, it makes locomotives even more. What spurred this for me was a review I just read about the new Mikado 2-8-2 by Trix. The review was great and I was even remotely interested until I saw the list price of this jewel, $595!!! Now realistically who can afford to shell out $600 bucks for a new engine? I know I sure can't. I got into this hobby when your choices were fewer but cheaper. A good Athearn engine would cost $35. I good steam about $50. Cars were $3-5. Now RTR cars are over $25.00. I know inflation plays a factor and again the quality is better but where do we draw the line on cost? Does this high price exclude those who can't afford it from the hobby? What if you were starting out? I am not complaining so much about the cost as I am about the inability to purchase at these high prices. I won't even get into the limited runs which drive the cost even higher.

[Roadtrp]

I think there is a price point for just about everyone in MR. I know that the standard Life Like and Bachmann product gets a lot or scorn on these boards, but that is what the majority of my 'N' scale equipment is and it works just fine. I did not want to invest more heavily when I was first starting out; because I wanted to make sure I was going to stay with the hobby before making a large investment.

Now, even though I am pretty well hooked for life, I still by Bachmann and Life Like product. Sure, every once and a while I will treat myself with a Kato locomotive or passenger consist. But the bulk of my equipment remains the lower cost stuff.

Now that I have my structures and rolling stock pretty well built up to where I want it, the hobby is really pretty cheap. Now I buy primarily scenicing stuff, and you can buy a TON of that for $50.

For those who would never be satisfied with the stuff I buy... no problem. Your money, you can buy what you want. My point is that people CAN get in to MR without spending a fortune.

[:)]

[Anonymous]

Detailed brass engines cost in thousands. As Roadtrp pointed out the hobby cost what your price point is. Beyond a certain point it begins to compete with other priorties. Most of us appreciate, lust, admire stuff (Ferrari) after a certain point and then go back to the stuff (Ford, Chevy, Toyota) we can work with and build a railroad. The affordable stuff is still pretty good. I don't feel priced out yet.

[dave9999]

It also depends on how much "stuff " you need. I prefer a few higher end locos to
a lot of cheaper ones. I don't need a fleet of locomotives, so I have purchased a
"Mike" by Athearn, BLI NYC Hudson, and a Rivarossi Allegheny. Others are mostly
Proto 2000 deisels that I have found on sale.

As for rolling stock, I buy blue box when I can. And RTR only when I need something
I can't find in a kit or when I find them on sale.

I also find that it doesn't hurt as bad to buy things a little at a time, instead of everything
at once. I figure that I'm in it for the long haul and there will be time to accumulate the
things I need(want). Dave

[Anonymous]

I'm low income, selective & shop for the discount. Not being DCC I can't get tempted by all those new bells, sounds & whistles.
P1k, absolutely and limited Spectrum too. The higher product end is beyond my budget.
For newbies,. Athearn blue box has a great reputation.

[nkpltrr]

The points made so far are valid and I will change my tune a little and agree that you can still get into the hobby at the lower end of the price scale. Brass has always been expensive and owning one or two of those items is within reach of some. I guess my point in this was that it seems like more and more products are getting closer to that high end of cost. It used to be that only brass was more expensive and the plastic and cast equipment was reasonable to own. The other side of this coin is the limited run issue. Even if you wanted to save your pennies for that great new model, if you don't buy when it is offered, you are out of luck in many cases because of the limited run issue. So I guess you save your pennies and hope another model of equal desire comes along when those pennies have accumulated. I guess the shock of the Trix price was more that my railroad budget could afford and I overreacted in making this post but I still feel that like most hobbies now days, cost is an ever increasing factor in the pursuit of our dreams. Thanks for the input!

[BRAKIE]

Now,One doesn't need a $150.00 engine and $30.00 cars to enjoy the hobby.Few good Athearns,catch some P2K locomotives at deep discount,some Blue Box cars,Atlas track and your good to go.One doesn't really need DCC to run his trains a good old MRC power pack will do that rather nicely.[:D]
Now my rules for buying is simple.Buy at the best price,buy use and if I don't need it I don't buy it..
Now,Of all my locomotives my favorite still remains a Athearn SW1500..Now looking at my high end locomotives whats wrong with that picture? So,for me the question is do I need 107 locomotives? Simply put no I do not.If I had to start over I would buy no more then the 18 locomotives I need for my C&HV roster.What was I thinking when I started to buy all those locomotives??[B)][8][:(!]

[orsonroy]

This has always been an "expensive" hobby. When I started buying models in the late 1980s, you basically had four grades of models: Tyco crud, Athearn/Roundhouse mid-level, craftsman kits, and brass. The highest level of authenticity and reliability I could reach was the Athearn/Roundhouse stuff. Even then, it was a struggle to be able to afford an occasional $20 F-unit or more than one or two $5 freight cars. Being able to afford one Mantua Pacific was a major accomplishment for me!

Times have changed. Not only do more people make more (believe it or not), but there are many more choices in products for the hobby. We still have the above four categories, and we now also have many more midrange choices. Inexpensive eraftsman kits (F&C), midrange quality steam (Bachmann & IHC), and many more midrange manufacturers (Red Caboose, Intermountain) that rival or surpass the quality of brass. And while the high-end stuff has continued to rise in price ($1500 for a brass steamer?!?), mid-high range quality items have moved in on their territory ($300 plastic engines). We also have more choices in our buying habits (mail order and the internet) which help us stretch out hobby budget (did you know that we can currently buy $90 MSRP P2K diesels from Trainworld for $30?). $50 street price DCC starter sets are right around the corner, too.

In reality, the days of a $1200 car and $20,000 house are long gone. Everything's more expensive. And have you taken a good look at what every other hobby costs these days? How about $18 for a CD, $24 for a DVD, $80 for a Play Station game? Most people I know who entertain themselves this way have collections of these items with numbers that rival our large freight car collection (2000 CDs isn't uncommon).

Yes, there are stupidly high prices on lots of model railroad equipment these days, but that doesn't mean you have to pay them to get what you want. Look at your example of the Trix USRA light 2-8-2. Being my favorite type of steam engine, I like a large roster of these engines. My choices for just this one type of stock USRA engine include IHC ($90), Athearn Genesis ($115), used Oriental Powerhouse brass/cast ($175), Bowser ($185), a Mantua/Cary kit conversion ($150 or so), Broadway Limited ($225), used brass ($150-$400), Trix ($600), or new brass ($1000 and up). Being a MODELING hobbiest, I knew that I would either have to shell out big bucks for used brass that fit my needs, or buy less expensive models and convert them (superdetailing). I tried the IHC engines forst, but found them to be lacking. I then settled on the Athearn engine, shopped around, and bought 10 at an average price of $75 each, new. Since they won't pull for poo on my new layout (even with modification), I've sold them (at $75 apiece) and standardized on the Oriental engines, which are a good compromise. Sure I'll get one o two of the BLI engines for their sound, but I'm still able to get what I want for a relatively affordable price that's stretched out over several years.

So the line that "this hobby is too expensive for the average startup modeler" just doesn't fly with me. I'm involved in several hobbies, most of which can be much more expensive than this one. When I was active both as a professional horse trainer and American Civil War Reenacting (mounted cavalry), I would regularly show up to participate in reenactments with well over $100,000 between my horse, truck, trailer, and gear!

[CNJ831]

I'll agree with Brakie to a certain extent. At least for the moment it is still possible to get fully started in the hobby without expending more than several thousand dollars to get a modest-sized layout up and running (a "nice" 5x10 layout fully scenicked and with a conservative roster of rolling stock probably runs in the neighborhood of $4,000-$5,000 currently - I've just finishing up such a new layout [by no means my first] in the last year and can speak from experience).

However, it seems to me that in recent years a number of the manufacturers have realized that there is a faction within the hobby (arguably Baby Boomers in their 40's and early 50's) willing to pay any price for a product that fits their momentary desires and they are responding to this crowd. It is becoming typical to see any newly introduced plastic steam priced at $250 - $500 and there are certainly examples well above this figure. Diesel, especially with sound, is approaching the $200 mark. Yes, you can buy certain examples for less but that percentage is steadily declining. Limited runs are allowing this concept to be quite profitable for the manufacturers and it is likely they will continue to raise prices and reduce production runs until they find the ceiling the traffic will bear.

Athearn (and to a lesser extent MDC) was the the great controlling influence in industry pricing for decades. Other manufacturers knew that if they raised their prices considerably most hobbyist would fall back on an Athearn product. Now that Athearn's influence is in decline and they seem likely to progressively limit (or eliminate) blue box production of cars and locomotives in favor of RTR while raising their prices along with everybody else, the hobby is likely to largely price itself out of range of the major portion of modelers within the next decade.

Definitely, the idea of impulse buying, so long a basic premise among hobbyists, has already passed from the scene. As someone expressed up-stream, the market's prime concept has become "buy right now or miss out." Undoubtedly, as many Boomers enter their retirement years they will withdraw almost totally from the purchasing aspect of the hobby and whatever broad appeal model railroading ever enjoyed will vanish.

CNJ831

[rogerhensley]

The question was, " Is the cost of model railroading out of reach for most?" and without doing a lot of 'qualifying', I would have to say, "Yes."

No, it has not 'always' been an expensive hobby, but it certainly has become one. If I was not already in the hobby, I would not start at today's prices. My opinion only. Your mileage may vary.

[Anonymous]

There is no "law" of model railroading that says you must have the newest, biggest, most expensive items to enjoy the hobby! Take a look at the Trainworld site - they have perfectly decent Life Like Proto 1000 F-7's for $19.95. Good and heavy, good motors, less fine detailing than Proto 2000, but will work just fine. They are a lot better than the original Athean F-7's, which have been around for more than 50 years. You can operate without an Athearn Genesis f-7! They also have their RDC-2 and -3's for the same price, and other similar bargains.

Geese, they're offering the Rivarossi two truck Heisler for $79.95 currently - when I got back into the hobby 20 years ago the earlier versions were around $75.00, so this can be a bargain. Shop around and it does not have to be expensive. You DO NOT require sound or DCC equipped motive power to operate a model railroad!

Have fun! [:)]

Bob Boudreau

[Paul3]

Folks, don't forget the main reason why the Trix is so much more expensive... It is made in Austria, not China.

Paul A. Cutler III
*****************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*****************

[Anonymous]

Good point Paul. I would really like to see a comparison between two identical items, one made in the U.S. and one made in China. Giving the manufacturer the same profit margin (or even the same $ amount), what would be the difference to the consumer? How about this idea. Atlas comes out with another line of track. USA Track. Code 83 made in the USA. Red White and Blue packaging. Labor would be more expensive, but shipping would be less. Because it is made in the US would delivery be faster?Would enough people go for it that it would become a viable line to carry? Would enough modelers pay the extra knowing that some American workers were gainfully employed? Would be interesting!

[bcammack]

I think that no matter your income level, there's always a cost/performance level that exceeds your ability to acquire. It's a personal choice to be unhappy with the cost/performance level you can afford. Value is subjective.

Me, I'm happy at the Life-Like, IndustrialRail level of N-scale railroading. I doubt if I've spent $500 so far on my little 2'x4' layout and I've got almost everything necessary for it, save for the time and energy to assemble/apply everything and finish it. [:)]

As far as cost of DCC goes, the new Bachmann EZ-Command can be had for $60 on-line. Decoders are available for < $20 without trying very hard. My next two steps after finishing the layout will be converting my rolling stock to MT bodymount couplers and DCC.

[egmurphy]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bcammack

I think that no matter your income level, there's always a cost/performance level that exceeds your ability to acquire. It's a personal choice to be unhappy with the cost/performance level you can afford. Value is subjective.

Me, I'm happy at the Life-Like, IndustrialRail level of N-scale railroading. I doubt if I've spent $500 so far on my little 2'x4' layout and I've got almost everything necessary for it, save for the time and energy to assemble/apply everything and finish it. [:)]

Well said. Congratulations on learning one of the great secrets in life, being happy with what you've got.


Ed

[Roadtrp]

QUOTE: Originally posted by CNJ831

I'll agree with Brakie to a certain extent. At least for the moment it is still possible to get fully started in the hobby without expending more than several thousand dollars to get a modest-sized layout up and running (a "nice" 5x10 layout fully scenicked and with a conservative roster of rolling stock probably runs in the neighborhood of $4,000-$5,000 currently - I've just finishing up such a new layout [by no means my first] in the last year and can speak from experience).

Wow! I've got maybe $900 in my 3-1/2 x 7-1/2 ‘N’ layout. If you have $4-5 K invested you must be going after much higher quality than I'm willing to pay for.

[:)]

[Anonymous]

The hobby is definitely expensive at times. I buy the things I need in dribs and drabs. I dont have the most expensive equipment but in time I hope to upgrade to better things.

[FThunder11]

WAY YO EXPENSIVE FOR ME. I never get to buy anything because of the cost. I need to buy track for my entire layout. It will cost me $170+, thats an insane amount!!! It sould gost $30-50 for that amount of track, not over $170!

[TrainFreak409]

I, too, agree that the prices of locomotives, and RTR rolling stock is too much. So, I usually buy Bachmann, or Athearn Blue Box. There is nothing wrong with the models. Sure, some might have a little less detailing, or less plastic. Overall though, there is usually no problem with them.

[8]TrainFreak409[8]

[Anonymous]

This thread is so interesting I have to jump in with my opinion.

You can get into model railroading rather cheaply compared to the late forties and early fifties. And in todays dollars you can get better quality today.

You spend money on track and locos. And alot of locos are cheap right now. You build everything else. Anyone scratch build anymore? You can purchase old MRs for 50 cents a copy and get plans. Other model railroad types are willing to help if you only ask.

The more you do yourself the cheaper it becomes. The satisfaction of seeing a creation that you have finished in operation on your own layout is beyond words.

There is a large overlap now with regards to brass versus plastic prices.

I guess what I am saying is if you want in and have your own model railroad you can do it creatively without it costing an arm an a leg. One step at a time. And today you have more resources than ever before to accompli***his. The fact that you are reading this indicates you have access to the resources out there.

PS - Took me 50 years to finally own a Mantua 4-6-2 Pacific for many different and varied reasons that took precedence. You can do it if you want - just do it. And have fun. :) :)

[Anonymous]

With the wages today, one must place things in prioritiy. Rent/mortgage, monthy bills, insurance which sucks up most incomes. So when you look at the AVERAGE persons money left after paying the things you need to survive, there just isn't alot left for train supplies anymore, so from that standpoint YES model railroading may very well be to costly these days. I wish I could go buy what I need for my railroad when I wanted it but one just can no longer afford to do it.

[Fergmiester]

Can you say "marketing"! a few years ago most of us would have been happy with Mehano, AHC, and Pre Horizon Athearn. Now we all want "Top End". As long as we support the market the sky will be the limit.
Only a certain %'ge will ever be interested in the MR hobby so the consultants will get the biggest bang for the buck out of a limited buyer's market, which is comprised of you and me.

that's "You and Me Babe"!

Sorry for being so rude, but.......

[IRONROOSTER]

I think part of what's happened over the years is that some of the low cost construction techniques are no longer acceptable. I have some craftsman kits from the 70's where the user was instructed to clip and bend a piece of wire to be the door handle on a box car. Under body detail was a brake casting no other detailing - wooden shapes were used for the bolsters, no rivets here. Years ago MR used to run a feature called dollar car that showed how to build a car for a dollar. Wooden box cars used spikes for door guides and handles. All of these can still be done, but can we be happy with it now?
Enjoy
Paul

[Anonymous]

Ironrooster - I think you have a good point.

I'm debating N scale Vs. HO scale - getting back into the hobby.

One of the beauty's of HO scale, I figured, was I'd be buying Athearn Blue Box deisels, superdetailing, and having some nice loco's for cheap!

I just stopped by the hobby shop and checked out some of the new $100 loco's. WOW. They look amazing. I don't think anyone could apply paint jobs / details like these new loco's coming off of the assembly line.

It's as if the hand-crafting can not compare to the current manufacturing techniques.

50 years ago you could probably assemble a cool electronic device at home (maybe a radio, etc.) that would rival anything you could buy. These days, no home electronics guru is building any integrated circuit boards in their garage. If that's your hobby, these days you buy components and put them together.

Is the same thing happening to model railroading? Maybe so. DCC, etc. is obviously that way.

Interesting topic.

[Anonymous]

Im on a strict budget and ,I know sometimes the cost of modeling can be expensive. With all different gadjets out there , like DCC and all the annimated structures.Sure it would be nice to own them. The hobbie shop ,I buy from is a great place, They have a wide section and they give you good discounts on items.and they have a lay-away plan the best option for me. I use this option most the time.(example,every friday.Ill put $5.00 to $10.00 a week on something.) Its a real satisfaction to finnally have it. I've bought a lot of used engines (a ) they work just as good most the time. I remember the first brand new engine , I ever bought. It was a Athearns Genesis SD70 IL. CENTRAL $100.00 . I got it out ran it and loved it .It ran so smooth and out pulled all my other engines. Thats the most ive ever paid for an engine. It took me awhile to get it. I do agree prices are high on wonderful things.I make a lot of things too, like bridge and trestles and structures. Building things from scratch are just as nice too. One time I picked up a MTH wish book from the hobbie store .Brought it to work just to pass the time.I remember some of the reactions from people I work with. they asked me ,do you pay that for sets you run. I said heck no!! I told them MTH is one of the top makers,I just like to look and dream. Model railroading is my hobbie,I love it ,its rewarding an expensive at times,but worth it.

[TDouglasH]

Well I think it has become rather expensive compared to past years but then so has everything else. With regards to the Trix 2 8 2 I would like one but only if it was $200 less. It seems that everyone is jumping on the bandwagon to raise prices and yes the Quality is better but is it worth the great increase in prices. ie quality up 20% price up 75%. Since I started in this hobby and to this date there have been many changes but since the fiftys prices did remain in the range were a young person could afford to start with good quaity at a fair price up to the last 8 years or so. That I believe has changed. Good quality fair price = lots of sales, manufacterer makes money, good quality high price = much fewer sales, company may or may not make as much money . Just my opinion for what it's worth.

[Anonymous]

I would say no, it isn't. Sure, there are expensive Trix and BLI locos out there, but there's also Athearn, Walthers, and Lifelike equipment for those of us on a budget. It's possible to build decent-looking models and have a lot of fun without spending outrageous sums. Many stores have items cheaply - I notice advertisers in MR listing Proto 1k locos from $19, which is a truly amazing price-cut. It's a case of shopping around for the best deal, and being flexible in what you're willing to buy and run - do you want an E-unit or do you want an E8 in C&NW livery? If you're willing to settle for any E in a paint scheme you like the look of then it's possible to find bargains, while finding a specific roadname often means that you have to pre-order and pay full list price.

To my mind, quality model railroad equipment is an investment. Over the past year or two I've been building a small collection of LGB G-scale equipment - prices are high at between £45 and £60 per car, but these will still be working for many years to come and will hold their value. Compare this to buying equipment for other hobbies (or worse, designer clothes), which depreciate massively and will not be usable for anything like as long as a decent loco or car.

[Jetrock]

Model railroading IS ONLY AS EXPENSIVE AS YOU MAKE IT.

It's no different from buying just about ANYTHING else--if you do a little hunting for deals, you will find them. eBay, train shows, the discount bin at the hobby shop, and of course the scratchbuilding components section of the hobby shop, and of course your imagination and JUNK LYING AROUND YOUR HOUSE, you can do more with less money.

IT IS ALWAYS MORE EXPENSIVE TO DO THINGS THE LAZY WAY.

Cars are a good analogy--sure, owning a huge garage full of sportscars is expensive, but you certainly are not required to own a huge garage full of sportscars to have an interest in cars! Gearheads don't have the money for that--so they check bulletin boards and classified ads for cheap deals, go to swap meets for cars, and ARE NOT AFRAID TO GET THEIR HANDS DIRTY AND DO A LITTLE WORK.

Sure, you used to be able to buy a nice brass locomotive for $50--when $50 was the amount you'd pay for monthly rent on an apartment, and bottles of Coke cost a nickel. Proportionally, things cost about the same--but, as mentioned above, the detail is greater and what used to be considered a "shake-the-box" kit is now considered craftsman-level because you might have to drill a hole in a piece of plastic. One difference between now and the 50's-60's is that most workers' incomes are proportionally less--as we have moved from an industrial economy to a service economy--so people have less disposable income for hobbies. While this is an annoying and sometimes difficult reality, it's certainly not the model railroad companies' fault.

Some advice for the cheapskate willing to do some work: Pick up old copies of MR and look for those "Dollar Model" articles. Most of them can still be built for a few bucks, if you can handle the horror of buying a few pieces of stripwood and cutting them up, harvesting the "junk boxes" at swap meets for useful parts, or, etcetera.

YOU ARE NOT REQUIRED TO OWN A $500 TRIX LOCOMOTIVE or brass or anything like that. You are not required to build a giant basement empire. Take a hint from European modelers and look at smaller plans that can be done on a smaller budget in a smaller space, take the time to build things from scratch and from kits. Sure, we have mroe choices now--which means WE DO NOT HAVE TO CHOOSE THE MOST EXPENSIVE WAY TO DO IT!

[Anonymous]

"Is the cost of model railroading out of reach for most?"

Yes.

[RMax1]

The value is the question. $30 boxcars and $600 locos??? The trend is going more to the very expensive TOY train RTR's. They are not worth the money at least to me. Prices have got way out of hand on just about everything in this hobby. Selection is bad due to limited runs. There have been some that say you can buy perfectly good Proto F's for $20 but it they don't fit what you are doing what good are they. Most of the Athearn and Atlas RTR cars can sit on the shelf. I'll buy from shows and what ever to get the kits I want. The point about the so called World's Greatest Hobby is that it's a Hassle to get what you want and you can spend way to much money for it. All of which is bad. I don't like to hunt for things and then be gouged for it. What fun is there in that. Hobbies are supposed to be FUN!!! This one is quickly becoming irratating and a hassle. And before a Model Railroad snob berates me and ask me what rock I just came out from under they are a big part of the reason and cause for some of the hobby's problems. Bolt counting snobs with too much time and money need to realize why other people do this. There are a lot of good model railroaders but there are an aweful lot that are not.


RMax