richhotrain What seems to have been forgotten here is that the original purpose of this thread was to address the issue of availability of product, or lack thereof, not the issue of cost. Everyone should go back and re-read the OP's initial post. You cannot spend money, no matter how much or how little, if product is not available. Rich
What seems to have been forgotten here is that the original purpose of this thread was to address the issue of availability of product, or lack thereof, not the issue of cost.
Everyone should go back and re-read the OP's initial post.
You cannot spend money, no matter how much or how little, if product is not available.
Rich
True, but it is still no small matter that "if" you made the product available by making it in the US, and it cost 3x as much as UP4-12-2 asserts, that wouldn't do much good to the average modeler, who is already struggling to buy products at the "new" higher prices that we have been seeing in the past 12 months. So having a product available and unaffordable ain't much good to most of us is it?
So I can understand why many manufacturers just don't want to "go down that road" because they are probably assuming if they could capitalize a project made in the US, would they lose their shirts because the items would be priced out of the range of most customers, and not sell. This is obviously a huge consideration. Sure, it would be nice to employ Americans, but would it be sustainable? in many cases those folks would be back out of work after the product is produced and fails to be a sales performer due to excessive MSRP price, and eventually has to be dumped on the market at a huge loss, and the folks who made it back in the unemployment line, the investors haviing lost hundreds of thousands in the experiment gone wrong. But its the job of all companies to do a feasibility study and a business plan that has a chance of succeeding, isn't it?
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
UP 4-12-2 Having worked in model train manufacturing here in America, I can say with very good authority that making a new model train locomotive here, with new tooling, from the ground up, and assembling it here with American labor, would actually result in the retail price being at least 3 times as high as it is now with Chinese produced goods. That means the actual street selling price would be at least 3 times higher than it is now. So, how many of you are really willing to spend that much for 100% American made product? I seriously doubt it would be enough to make such a project worthwhile.
Having worked in model train manufacturing here in America, I can say with very good authority that making a new model train locomotive here, with new tooling, from the ground up, and assembling it here with American labor, would actually result in the retail price being at least 3 times as high as it is now with Chinese produced goods. That means the actual street selling price would be at least 3 times higher than it is now.
So, how many of you are really willing to spend that much for 100% American made product?
I seriously doubt it would be enough to make such a project worthwhile.
Alton Junction
Odie If what the other posters are saying about Jason's post is true, then that is a pretty low blow by the mods on here. I am very disappointed MR staff has decided what is fit for my eyes and what isn't in this case. I really would like to know what part of the TOS Jason's post violated.
If what the other posters are saying about Jason's post is true, then that is a pretty low blow by the mods on here. I am very disappointed MR staff has decided what is fit for my eyes and what isn't in this case. I really would like to know what part of the TOS Jason's post violated.
I agree here. If Jason Shrons post was removed, it seems there was some sort of draconian soviet/peoples republic of china style censoring going on here. Jason has always posted consistant with most of the industry information. For shame MR/moderator(s)!?
Jason's post made me think about River Station Products, which was having the New Haven Pullman Standard stainless steel cars produced. I'm now assuming that the issues overseas may have affected RSP's production schedules as well.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
I am sorry I missed Jason's post. In the past he has answered questions that have quelled the rants of the "emotionally uninformed" as I like to call them. He is very professional and comes across to me as a person of good character. Maybe he could post his comments on the Rapido Website for us to read.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Hey, what's going on here?????
The post from Rapido (Jason) was probably one of the most valuable and truly informative posts I've seen on the subject. And now it - and several responses referencing it - are gone (including mine).
I've been on this forum for a long, long time, and this is the first time I feel the "deleters" jumped the gun.
Neither the subject nor the responses were - imho - out of line, and in fact were more productive than not.
If there was a problem in the eyes of those with the forum power, then explain it to us and lock the thread.
Deleting posts is just downright wrong!
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
AntonioFP45 Jason from Rapido made what, imho, was an outstanding post that hit on target. I was looking for it and wondered what happened. It was not controversial nor inappropriate, but well thought out and professional. Very disappointed to see it zapped.
Jason from Rapido made what, imho, was an outstanding post that hit on target. I was looking for it and wondered what happened. It was not controversial nor inappropriate, but well thought out and professional. Very disappointed to see it zapped.
I agree. I find it disappointing that it was somehow found necessary to delete that post. It directly answers and addresses questions/speculations.
A manufacturer provided insight into the issues that has many of us concerned and instead of allowing it to remain it was decided that modelers are "best left in the dark", deleting the post and paving the way for more speculation, conspiracy theories and baseless insinuations.
Although a small issue on the radar, I urge Rapido to continue participating with the end users and occasionally providing continued insight into how the business works.
I'd like to say more but I'd hate to provide another reason to have additional posts removed (I probably said to much already)
~Kyle
The Mary Lindsay Railroad - Featuring Amtrak Model Trains Your HO Rail Journey Starts Here.........
www.marylindsayrr.vze.com (Last Update: 5/31/12)
Jason (Rapido) and Blain (Exactrail) explained the situation in detail when I interviewed them for podcasts several months ago. They are fortunate in that their production is with suppliers other than the one which impacted Athearn RTR, Atlas, etc. Their's is also more of a partnership than a mere customer relationship.
Listen to Jason's answers to my queries about bringing the manufacturing back to North America. While there is truth in a previous post about the who and what drove the manufacturing overseas, we consumers also played a large part in our pursuit of lower retail prices.
None of these influences are bad in and of themselves; they just had unintended consequences.
Hmmm. I just finished reading a bunch of deleted posts, one of which was very informative, a couple were a little silly and the rest were rather innocuous. I saw nothing inflammatory or especially controversial, so I'm wondering why they were thought to be veering toward a "political" discussion. As a moderator on another forum, I have no issues with the moderators here doing their job, but the preemptive strike seemed to suppose a lack of self-control among the Members engaged in this discussion. In my opinion, it would have been preferable (although not my choice) to leave the one informative post, then lock the thread. That information, along with the information in the original post, explained much of the problems occurring within the industry. Whether or not we agree on a solution, we at least no longer need to speculate on the problem as it applies to our very narrow interests
Wayne.
richhotrain galaxy: If you don't like Bachmann, then you may be stuck. Maybe you shoud try a Bachmann? Maybe "try a Bachmann, Buy a Bachmann" will work too! Sheldon?
galaxy: If you don't like Bachmann, then you may be stuck. Maybe you shoud try a Bachmann? Maybe "try a Bachmann, Buy a Bachmann" will work too!
If you don't like Bachmann, then you may be stuck. Maybe you shoud try a Bachmann?
Maybe "try a Bachmann, Buy a Bachmann" will work too!
Sheldon?
I feel like doing a "Buy a Bachmann, chuck a Bachmann", despite having a 44-tonner from them.
The Lehigh Valley Railroad, the Route of the Black Diamond Express, John Wilkes and Maple Leaf.
-Jake, modeling the Barclay, Towanda & Susquehanna.
Yes Rich, We the USA, have taught these manufactures how to design and build by out sourcing to them. It seems like everyone wants cheap prices. Being a retired Union Man who was paid a fair wage to support my family for forty two years I appreciate well made goods and I also want it made in the good ol USA or Canada and probably the UK. That is the way it was along time past. If we keep going our population won't know how to manufacture let alone design anything. I'll pay more for good quality American manufactured goods. I remember when my folks sent a Frigidare to the junk heap to be dismantled for parts and metal after it had served its purpose for over 40 years. That is what we in America used to build and can again if we get with it. We, the USA can do this if we get serious about what is going on. We don't need anymore trade imbalance with china. We just don't!!!! Doug
IRONROOSTERI'm glad that I have enough stuff to keep me going for years.
I feel the same way. I think my locomotive fleet is as big as it's ever going to get.
There you go...
This proves how important that the US has become to other countries in the world...
We go down, and the others will follow...
This also proves that making, say, a brass 2-8-8-4 yellowstone decorated for the DM&IR with sound, is much harder than making, say, a Nintendo 3DS (which is still hard to do)...
Yet, it also proves that the dealers are merely taking the brunt of our anger, not the manufacturers, who don't need it as well...
DigitalGriffin Bachmann purchased the factory well over 2 years ago. But don't blame Bachmann for the shortage. You don't buy a large factory and then idle a very large percentage of it. That cost you way too much money. I heard what the real problem is, and it's not really Bachmann's fault. I would say more, but it's 2nd hand hearsay from an insider and that would irresponsible for me to repeat it as it could affect the company's business.
Bachmann purchased the factory well over 2 years ago.
But don't blame Bachmann for the shortage. You don't buy a large factory and then idle a very large percentage of it. That cost you way too much money.
I heard what the real problem is, and it's not really Bachmann's fault. I would say more, but it's 2nd hand hearsay from an insider and that would irresponsible for me to repeat it as it could affect the company's business.
Oh, nice DG. Just leave us hanging. LOL
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
superbe I'm have a hard time believing that Bachmann was able to tie up all of the production capabilities in China and has a monopoly on new train production. No disrespect to CMT but I'd be more impressed if this information came from the likes of Walthers, Horizon, and Model Train Stuff. In fact if this is true I would have expected for MR Magazine to have commented.
I'm have a hard time believing that Bachmann was able to tie up all of the production capabilities in China and has a monopoly on new train production.
No disrespect to CMT but I'd be more impressed if this information came from the likes of Walthers, Horizon, and Model Train Stuff. In fact if this is true I would have expected for MR Magazine to have commented.
If you pull together all the information out there, the picture becomes a little clearer. CMT was avoiding naming names in the e-mail. Bachmann is owned by Kader, which also owns the largest mr manufacturing plant in China. Sanda Kan (spelling?) was the second biggest manufacturer, and was the contract shop for many of the bigger importers. Sanda Kan over-committed their facilities, causing many delivery delays, and had other problems. Sanda Kan was bought by Kader. Kader sent letters to many importers - not all, but most of the smaller ones - that had been using Sanda Kan telling them to find another source for their production. And so the scramble for production facilities and supplier infrastructure has been on for the past year or two.
So Bachmann has a lock for Chinese production time. Blackstone/Soundtraxx appears to be pretty high on the list for Kader facilities due to being the supplier of Tsunami decoders, as well as buying Blackstone production. Being in HOn3 with little competition, Blackstone can get and pay higher prices. Atlas is trying to set up alternatives to Kader, as witnessed by their track production issues earlier this year.
Like it or not, it takes experience and practice to get model locomotive production up to reasonable quality standards (cracked gears, over-oiled models, anyone?). Model train production is not generally first on the list of investors looking for decent returns - it's not known for high profits or low risks. If it was easy any of us could do it. But it sure sounds easy listening to the forums.
Fred W
[quote user="tpatrick"]
superbe: Bob, I am the OP. CMT (Canadian Model Trains) did not receive the email. They wrote it. They sent it to me and I posted it here for you.
Bob, I am the OP. CMT (Canadian Model Trains) did not receive the email. They wrote it. They sent it to me and I posted it here for you.
The CMT News Flash should not confuse you.Their email laid out the problem: a competitor has tied up the Chinese manufacturing for themselves. The News Flash is CMT's response to the situation. They are going to manufacture their own products.
We should applaud CMT and hope for their success. Who knows, maybe one day CMT will be the supplier for other brands and we will find our models made in Canada (or wherever CMT builds its factory).
Tim
tpatrick,
I hope CMT can get a production facility up and running. It would be good for model railroading and I wish them all the luck they can get.
Bob
Don't Ever Give Up
I'm curious about the math. If, in fact, there is only one "A" factory and it's 10 x larger than the three "B" factories, does this mean that Bachmann is going to use all of the capacity of the sole "A" factory?
It also seems odd to me that in the manufacturing capacity of China there is only one "A" size factory.
I was suggesting Bowser Kits, in which case their website clearly states they are made in the USA! If this is a false statement on Bowser's part, I have no way of knowing and until someone proves otherwise, I will take Bowser's word for it.
NP 2626 "Northern Pacific, really terrific"
Northern Pacific Railway Historical Association: http://www.nprha.org/
richhotrain The only thing that this all tells me is that once you surrender the means of production to a foreign country, you are thereafter held hostage. The solution is to return to our roots and bring production back to the United States and employ American workers once again. Rich
The only thing that this all tells me is that once you surrender the means of production to a foreign country, you are thereafter held hostage.
The solution is to return to our roots and bring production back to the United States and employ American workers once again.
If it were just the assembly line or the injection molding machinery, moving production back would be fairly easy. Chinese business practice and loss of the supporting infrastructure in the US make the reality of moving production back to the US very difficult.
Notice that the letter addressed that model train manufacturing - especially locomotives - is a complex undertaking. The original reason for production moving overseas was the cost of cutting dies. The difference in assembly costs alone didn't push production out. But a difference in die costs of $20+ per locomotive on a run of 5,000 units is significant. Then add the sourcing of supporting parts that have to be ordered - motors, gears, shafts, flywheels, wheels, and so on. These are generally not produced in the US anymore, either - especially in numbers that are not large scale production but beyond basement manufacturing.
Getting paint masks made and spearately applied metal or plastic detail partes is another infrastructure issue. I know the basement manufacturers here in the US struggle to locate sources of supply for trucks, detail castings, and decals for their kits (not every basement manufacturer wants to produce his own AB brake system or windows or trucks)
Bottom line is that returning production to the US involves reviving a whole infrastructure of specialty suppliers who can produce economically in the desired quantities - not just opening an assembly factory.
just my thoughts
Milepost 266.2 Railphotog: NP2626: Interesting read and very significant! We can support US production, very simply by buying from Accurail, Bowser and other kit manufacturers! Learn that it isn't hard at all to build model kits as opposed to buying RTR! I beleive Bowser's latest diesel offerings were made in China too. Bowser diesels are made in China. Bowser cars are made in the US.
Railphotog: NP2626: Interesting read and very significant! We can support US production, very simply by buying from Accurail, Bowser and other kit manufacturers! Learn that it isn't hard at all to build model kits as opposed to buying RTR! I beleive Bowser's latest diesel offerings were made in China too.
NP2626: Interesting read and very significant! We can support US production, very simply by buying from Accurail, Bowser and other kit manufacturers! Learn that it isn't hard at all to build model kits as opposed to buying RTR!
Interesting read and very significant!
We can support US production, very simply by buying from Accurail, Bowser and other kit manufacturers! Learn that it isn't hard at all to build model kits as opposed to buying RTR!
I beleive Bowser's latest diesel offerings were made in China too.
Bowser diesels are made in China. Bowser cars are made in the US.
Everything from Bowser is made in China now, even the Cal-Scale parts, I just received another RS-32/36 detail set made in China and the price jumped from 14.95 to 19.95.
Botchmann is still Botchmann!
Stop calling Athearn, Atlas, Bowser , Walthers and others manufacturer's they are importers and most of the time due to the new order policies they don't even have anything in their warehouses (if they even have one). Accurail is a manufacturer they make everything here in the USA.
Most of ExactRail and Intermountain's stuff is molded in the USA and shipped to China for assembly.
Rick J
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
superbe I for one would like to know from whom CMT recieved the purported E-Mail spelling out all of the doom and gloom. It is very conusing after reading the OP's post that Bachmann has sewed up for all intents and purpose all of model train production when CMT (the OP) released this news bulletin on their very own web site. NEWSFLASH - July 10/12 CMT is changing from a dealer of many manufacturers into a supplier/manufacturer of its own products. This is an exciting time for us. As a result, we are making many changes to our operations. Due to the time commitment to do this, we are running behind in answering emails. Do not be alarmed. Perhaps the OP would explain this. Bob
I for one would like to know from whom CMT recieved the purported E-Mail spelling out all of the doom and gloom.
It is very conusing after reading the OP's post that Bachmann has sewed up for all intents and purpose all of model train production when CMT (the OP) released this news bulletin on their very own web site.
NEWSFLASH - July 10/12 CMT is changing from a dealer of many manufacturers into a supplier/manufacturer of its own products. This is an exciting time for us. As a result, we are making many changes to our operations. Due to the time commitment to do this, we are running behind in answering emails. Do not be alarmed.
Perhaps the OP would explain this.
galaxy If you don't like Bachmann, then you may be stuck. Maybe you shoud try a Bachmann? Maybe "try a Bachmann, Buy a Bachmann" will work too!
Harold drives home an important point. The injection molding industry was the first to be set to Mexico and Asia. There is still a lot of equipment available, but very little available capital to fund a new production facility. Compound that problem with few "craftsmen" able to build new tooling at any cost. Many of the Asian manufacturers own the tooling that produces the models. I've been in the tool & die business since 1965, and it ain't what it used to be! Can it come back? I certainly hope so. .
I started stockpiling three years ago, saw this coming. Didn't take much to connect the dots.
I even bought a bundle of code55 n scale track as an investment, has went up $50 bucks October 2010.
Harold
Bachmann trains have generally been quite available, even if not directly "in stock" at a supplier and only "available". Others have had the production troubles, promising then nto delivering or delivering years late. Perhaps now we know why. BAchamnn does tend to manufacture to put on the shelves.
The underdog is emerging ahead of the leaders of the pack and succeeding?.
I personally have no problems with my Bachmann locos {14 of them} and have yet to need to resort to the "great Bachmann Service Departement" I hear tell good things about. Bachamnn DOESN't necesssarily have to "build the better mousetrap", it just has to put all others out of business!
The auto industry ate itself up time after time to a few manufacturers for US Automobiles. Then came the foreigners and now the US auto industry fights to hold on.
I will happily continue to aquire Bachmann DCC OnBoard locos as funds and wants/needs allow.
If you all think bringing model RRing manufacturing BACK TO THE USA would help, perhaps you can all get together and pool your money and build a bigger/better plant to manufacture all the locos you desire! Put your money where your mouth is, so to speak. If you don't, you have no reason to complain about lateness, non-production, or "Bachmann taking over".
"Try a Kia, Buy a Kia" was a slogan for the Kia dealers. Maybe "try a Bachmann, Buy a Bachmann" will work too!
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.