I am sorry to hear about the Happy Hobo closing down, I spent a lot of time and money there as a teenager. Loved driving the 20 miles or so from Brandon to shop there in the 80's.I travel around a lot and I notice most of the shops that survive do a good mail order/internet business and offer discounts. I have always heard store owners complaining about mail order, train shows, discount stores, customers getting older, etc. for the last 30 years!! Way before the internet was common. I never understood why these same shop owner could not use a train show to move inventory and get new customers or use the internet in the same capacity. A lot of Hobby shops I visit seem to be dust collecting museums of yesterdays merchandise priced at list. To be fair the shrinking of disposable income for many folks and lack of decent jobs in many areas isn't helping, but for a hobby shop to survive this would make getting into e-retailing ever more critical. I don't know why , but I always find these discussions interesting.
James Sanchez
BRAKIE Rich,Here's the other side of the coin..I've made several long time friends at LHS and got to visit home layouts that is usually kept from public viewing. I have several friends on forums and have several invitations to visit their layout when or if I'm ever in their area. I even got to meet several of this forum members at the Berea train show! I do miss the Saturday morning gathering of the faithful at a well stock small hole in the wall hobby shop.I will cherish those enjoyable Saturday mornings as long as I live and I didn't mind the the 30 minute drive to get there.Of course I picked up the needed supplies and maybe a kit or two. All to sadly this shop closed 16 years ago(seems like yesterday) and many of the group has passed including the owner..
Rich,Here's the other side of the coin..I've made several long time friends at LHS and got to visit home layouts that is usually kept from public viewing.
I have several friends on forums and have several invitations to visit their layout when or if I'm ever in their area.
I even got to meet several of this forum members at the Berea train show!
I do miss the Saturday morning gathering of the faithful at a well stock small hole in the wall hobby shop.I will cherish those enjoyable Saturday mornings as long as I live and I didn't mind the the 30 minute drive to get there.Of course I picked up the needed supplies and maybe a kit or two.
All to sadly this shop closed 16 years ago(seems like yesterday) and many of the group has passed including the owner..
Larry,
That is certainly an interesting perspective.
When I got into the HO scale side of the hobby 8 years ago after a 40 year hiatus after running American Flyer trains as a kid, I made my first visit to our LHS with my wife in tow because I felt intimidated visiting a model railroading only retail shop.
I no sooner got in the door when the owner pounced on me and quickly sized me up as a newbie. Although this guy suffered no fools, as I later learned, for some reason he took a liking to me and helped me time and time again even though I always amused him with my lack of knowledge about the hobby and about the prototype.
There were always a number of characters in the shop. They hung around and B.S.'d but never bought anything. Some were older than me, some were younger, but all were aged 50 or older. I avoided them like the plague, and my knowledgeable store assistant buddy often told me that I was wise to do so.
So, I never developed any friendships among the LHS crowd. Good to hear that your experiences were different. Sad to hear about so many passing away.
Rich
Alton Junction
richhotrain cedarwoodron: This forum does an excellent ( and entertaining ) job of serving as an alternative, in part, to that loss. Many of us are far less " the lone wolves" we otherwise might be, because of it. Cedarwoodron That is a great point, and I agree wholeheartedly with it. I have met some great friends through this forum that I never would have met otherwise, LHS notwithstanding. While I have never met any of them personally, through email, we have shared a lot of experiences and helped each other with our layouts and other train related agendas. Rich
cedarwoodron: This forum does an excellent ( and entertaining ) job of serving as an alternative, in part, to that loss. Many of us are far less " the lone wolves" we otherwise might be, because of it. Cedarwoodron
This forum does an excellent ( and entertaining ) job of serving as an alternative, in part, to that loss. Many of us are far less " the lone wolves" we otherwise might be, because of it.
Cedarwoodron
That is a great point, and I agree wholeheartedly with it.
I have met some great friends through this forum that I never would have met otherwise, LHS notwithstanding. While I have never met any of them personally, through email, we have shared a lot of experiences and helped each other with our layouts and other train related agendas.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
cedarwoodron This forum does an excellent ( and entertaining ) job of serving as an alternative, in part, to that loss. Many of us are far less " the lone wolves" we otherwise might be, because of it. Cedarwoodron
For me, the Train show has replaced the LHS. Each year there are 2 or 3 three within an hour's drive from where I live. And another 8-10 within 3 hours (don't go to all of those, but some).
Enjoy
Paul
Blah,blah, blah.
Guys, this thread is beginning to resemble Elliot's Trackside Diner.
What is the point?
The LHS is dead. If it isn't gone already where you live, it will be gone soon.
When I first starting working after college in downtown Chicago in the mid-60's, there were 3 large hobby shops and several small ones that we would visit on our lunch hour. By the beginning of the 1980's, they were all gone.
When I started into the HO scale side of the hobby 8 years ago, there were 3 fully stocked local hobby shops within a 20 minute drive of my house in the Chicago suburbs. They are all closed now.
So, the Internet is where I go to buy anything and everything that I need.
So, the LHS is dead. If you can find one, and if you like it, enjoy it. It will be gone before you will be gone. So what?
Even when all three local hobby shops were still open in my neck of the woods, I couldn't always get exactly what I wanted if it wasn't in stock. No one gave me the opportunity to "try before you buy". If they didn't have it, I could order it from my LHS and get it within a few days and usually at a 20 percent discount. So, no big deal.
The one thing that I miss about the local hobby shop is the ability to ask questions and get answers and advice from a knowledgeable assistant in one of the three LHS. When the LHS closed and the owner retired, that knowledgeable assistant was gone for good. So, I turned to this forum for Q&A and solid advice, and I get it.
Forget about the Local Hobby Shop. It's gone. Its era is over. At one time, the largest corporation in the United States was the American Leather Company. Can you find it today?
The more I think about it, the less I miss it. Long live the Internet!
cf-7 CTValleyRR: You need to be the instant gratification guy -- like when I use my last strip of 0.01 styrene at 9:00 Saturday night, I know where I can get more on Sunday morning.... you ARE open Sundays, right? Because the Internet is. I don't agree with this. The internet may be open, but you won't receive the needed styrene until at least Wednesday, probably even a day or 2 after that. Whereas the LHS will be open on Monday or Tuesday to purchase the needed item. I also order more by mail than in the past. My nearest train only store is about 40 miles away. Thankfully, I do have a full range shop a lot closer for items such as styrene. Plus, I model in a scale/gauge (Sn3) that is not the most popular and that stuff I have to mail order.
CTValleyRR: You need to be the instant gratification guy -- like when I use my last strip of 0.01 styrene at 9:00 Saturday night, I know where I can get more on Sunday morning.... you ARE open Sundays, right? Because the Internet is.
You need to be the instant gratification guy -- like when I use my last strip of 0.01 styrene at 9:00 Saturday night, I know where I can get more on Sunday morning.... you ARE open Sundays, right? Because the Internet is.
I don't agree with this. The internet may be open, but you won't receive the needed styrene until at least Wednesday, probably even a day or 2 after that. Whereas the LHS will be open on Monday or Tuesday to purchase the needed item.
I also order more by mail than in the past. My nearest train only store is about 40 miles away. Thankfully, I do have a full range shop a lot closer for items such as styrene. Plus, I model in a scale/gauge (Sn3) that is not the most popular and that stuff I have to mail order.
Perhaps you don't agree because I got caught up in being cute and didn't communicate clearly. My point was really that in our 24/7 world, stores that aren't open Sundays get left in the dust by retailers, or e-tailers, who are.
I'm blessed with 3 stores within a half hour's drive where I can buy styrene on a Sunday. Since I work on Mondays and Tuesdays, it's much less likely that I'll be stopping by one of them Monday or Tuesday. But a place that's open Sundays instantly gets my business, because then I could finish my project on Sunday. If there weren't a place I could buy it on Sunday, I'd be more likely to drop my order on the Internet on Sunday morning and postpone the project until the following weekend.
The point is that a lot of customers now expect you to be open Sundays, and if you aren't, you're at a disadvantage. When I worked in retail, my "weekend" was Tuesday and Wednesday.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
On my last trip to the local hobby shop in Greenville, I went to get on I-85 South and saw the northbound lanes at a stand still. Turns out a truck took out one of those electronic message boards and blocked all six lanes. I had to take US 29 home and all the lights on that road seemed to be timed so you get ever last stinking one of them red. It took me twice as long to get home as it did to get there. Not dealing with that pain-in-you-know-what drive as part of the reason I buy online.
Modeling the Pennsylvania Railroad in N Scale.
www.prr-nscale.blogspot.com
Steven Otte Folks, let's keep our photos, as well as our text, on-topic. Mmmkay?
Folks, let's keep our photos, as well as our text, on-topic. Mmmkay?
Thank you Steve!!!
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
Sir Madog I have to make a confession - I am one of the bad guys who does all his sourcing through the Internet. I would not mind shopping at a local hobby shop, but there is none around. The nearest, about 10 miles from my home, is run by a close to 80 year old gentlemen, who is just selling off his inventory before he ´ll close the place - he has been doing that for the last 10 years. Next in distance is a place in Hamburg, that´s over 30 miles to drive, but I don´t go there. First of all, the price of gas is prohibitive, second, you have to add a parking fee, as there is no free parking, and third, the shop does not carry any of the products I need for my layout. My layout follows Japanese prototype and I use mainly Woodland Scenic products for my scenery. Structures are made by Tomytec, Kato, or Greenmax, brands hardly known in Germany. Even so I wish I had a hobby shop nearby - I still prefer to see things before I buy them.
I have to make a confession - I am one of the bad guys who does all his sourcing through the Internet. I would not mind shopping at a local hobby shop, but there is none around. The nearest, about 10 miles from my home, is run by a close to 80 year old gentlemen, who is just selling off his inventory before he ´ll close the place - he has been doing that for the last 10 years. Next in distance is a place in Hamburg, that´s over 30 miles to drive, but I don´t go there. First of all, the price of gas is prohibitive, second, you have to add a parking fee, as there is no free parking, and third, the shop does not carry any of the products I need for my layout. My layout follows Japanese prototype and I use mainly Woodland Scenic products for my scenery. Structures are made by Tomytec, Kato, or Greenmax, brands hardly known in Germany.
Even so I wish I had a hobby shop nearby - I still prefer to see things before I buy them.
Wie gehts!
When I visited Germany several times in the 1990's I did have a chance to step into a hobby shop or two, but of course American trains were not generally on the shelves. I even got to visit a museum in Belefeld which include railroad stuff and I recall there was a model railroad being build there from scratch, hand laid track and all. A friend knew someone there so I got to go behind the scenes - very cool!
Anyway, most of us are forced to deal with online or mail order these days. I looked for shops in my area and not much here, and it would be more trouble than it's worth to order stuff, I mean why? I might as well just do it from home and cut out the middle man. Prices are higher in shops and online/mail order will ship directly to me.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
BRAKIE Richard,My son is 40 and been fooling with computers for years-He built his first gaming computer when he was 17..Darnest thing I ever seen..Every week he would order a part and first thing I knew he had a gaming computer that was very fast-in fact this would become my first computer after he built a much faster one.. What I like about this deal is every time he upgrades his gaming computer he rebuilds mine with those "older" parts..Needless to say I have a very fast computer.The only stock part left of my Compaq computer is the tower. BTW. He's self taught...
Richard,My son is 40 and been fooling with computers for years-He built his first gaming computer when he was 17..Darnest thing I ever seen..Every week he would order a part and first thing I knew he had a gaming computer that was very fast-in fact this would become my first computer after he built a much faster one..
What I like about this deal is every time he upgrades his gaming computer he rebuilds mine with those "older" parts..Needless to say I have a very fast computer.The only stock part left of my Compaq computer is the tower.
BTW. He's self taught...
That is so neat. Shows a lot of intelligence and persistence.
Richard
Sir Madog The nearest, about 10 miles from my home, is run by a close to 80 year old gentlemen, who is just selling off his inventory before he ´ll close the place - he has been doing that for the last 10 years. Next in distance is a place in Hamburg, that´s over 30 miles to drive, but I don´t go there.
The nearest, about 10 miles from my home, is run by a close to 80 year old gentlemen, who is just selling off his inventory before he ´ll close the place - he has been doing that for the last 10 years. Next in distance is a place in Hamburg, that´s over 30 miles to drive, but I don´t go there.
Oh My! The nearest TOWN is 25 miles away. The nearest hobby shop is in Bismarck, 75 miles away, and he is going out of business soon anyway. And besides, nobody in North Dakota sells subway trains. Sure, they can order them, but then so can I. And I can order from a retailer who offers a lower price than Walthers.
Gas? Expensive? At $3.35 a gallon? ☺ Maybe it is your TAXES that are too high.
[Edited by moderator to remove off-topic image]
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
You could always try to help bring the next generation along in to the hobby. Boys and Girls Clubs, 4-H, etc all would love to have people volunteer to work with kids even if it is just one day a month.
4-H especially would be a great place to start. Invite a different local 4-H club to your Club and let them view the layout... run the trains.... maybe even do some hands on construction etc... Exposing kids to the hobby is going to be the best way to get new kids involved. After a while you will definitely gain a group fo young kids who love the hobby and want to be a part of what you are doing. 4-H is the worlds largest youth organization... it is located in every county in every state in the country through your states Land Grant Univ(s).
A good question would be how many clubs have youth outreach programs and youth days etc to help bring this next generation in?
I mostly shop directly in Japan, because it is much cheaper than buying at the only source in Germany which carries Kato or Tomix trains. It is also much faster, about half the time from order to delivery at my doorstep.
Hah hah Larry,
I built my first computer in 2000 when I had been kicked out of the house. I wanted to build a gaming computer for low cost - at the time the "Coppermine" Pentium III FCPGA processor was a good deal and I was able to over clock it from 550 mhz to 733 mhz easy. I've built some 40 computers since then but not for a while now, but it isn't hard if you do a little research and get some good advice!
BRAKIE Richard asks: For those of you who point to the teenagers/younger generation using the internet to buy vs stores--do you say that from seeing your own kids or others doing it? How do you know that? ---------------------------- Richard,That's a very interesting question..Here's my observations. In todays computer world its so much easier to shop in your home..You can order pizza on line,order a carryout dinner from Bob Evans and other such restaurants(some restaurants deliver),buy clothes,sporting goods,watch and order movies,buy books etc,etc,etc..You can do all this from your desk top,lap top or cell phone.. When my son buys computer parts or the latest action video game its from on line even though there are several nearby computer and game stores.. Its a whole new world of computerized shopping that's slowly squeezing out the old shopping methods. I suspect one day you will walk into a store sit down at a small private computer desk and order your needs,pay and wait until a porter brings your purchase.I suspect there will be a complimentary coffee or soft drink while you wait.. A personal off topic thought. When I was a kid back in the 50s I never dreamed that one day I will have a computer in my home,a phone in my pocket that has a GPS system and a camera that doesn't need film and will show you the photo before you take it.. So,its only natural the new methods replaces the old methods.
Richard asks:
For those of you who point to the teenagers/younger generation using the internet to buy vs stores--do you say that from seeing your own kids or others doing it? How do you know that?
----------------------------
Richard,That's a very interesting question..Here's my observations.
In todays computer world its so much easier to shop in your home..You can order pizza on line,order a carryout dinner from Bob Evans and other such restaurants(some restaurants deliver),buy clothes,sporting goods,watch and order movies,buy books etc,etc,etc..You can do all this from your desk top,lap top or cell phone..
When my son buys computer parts or the latest action video game its from on line even though there are several nearby computer and game stores..
Its a whole new world of computerized shopping that's slowly squeezing out the old shopping methods.
I suspect one day you will walk into a store sit down at a small private computer desk and order your needs,pay and wait until a porter brings your purchase.I suspect there will be a complimentary coffee or soft drink while you wait..
A personal off topic thought.
When I was a kid back in the 50s I never dreamed that one day I will have a computer in my home,a phone in my pocket that has a GPS system and a camera that doesn't need film and will show you the photo before you take it..
So,its only natural the new methods replaces the old methods.
Thanks for the reply. How old is your son, if you don't mind me asking?
BTW, the concept of using computers/internet is something we do every day. We have 7 computers networked in my household(two are set up to run the layout) and I used to own a business that supplied CNN and other major enterprises some of their computer equipment. I guess that's one thing that makes me so passionate about this subject. I've owned/own 5 businesses including IT, mfg and services--have teenagers, love the train hobby, a Boy Scout leader which gives me insight as to what teenage boys like/don't like (peer pressure/group think is a big part of what influences a teenager. Not as much peer pressure when younger).
One thing I've learned from being in business is that you have to have some level of passion to make it work. And when the owners get older/retire and can't find a buyer that's usually the end of any small business. You hear about so many businesses either failing or not going to the next generation.
There is a new train store here which opened up about 4 years ago and he is growing--already moved into a bigger store. A lot of his business is from the internet--so he does both which he has proven can be a winning strategy. He tells me that Horizon won't let you sell Athearn or other product without having brick and mortar--so at least Horizon is trying to help the LHS business. He does a pretty good business from the store and has some passion.
Here in Louisville Ky we have 2 very nice Hobby shops.One all trains and it does well and the other that does all hobbies and it is allways packed.I live quite far from them in southern IN and since one of our bridges got closed due to cracks getting their is allmost impossible.I due order most of my stuff from MB Klien but I do use the local shop quite a bit when I can get their.One installs decoders and I use them allot.Most of the local kids like the RC stuff tha is ready to race 'most do not have the skills or a father to show them all the skill in model rail roads.I do watch Youtube and their seems to be plenty of young folks buying and getting into trains.I would say aound here MR is healthy.Bob
CTValleyRR You need to be the instant gratification guy -- like when I use my last strip of 0.01 styrene at 9:00 Saturday night, I know where I can get more on Sunday morning.... you ARE open Sundays, right? Because the Internet is.
Oh brother, how did I miss this thread for so long? It has already been up for 24 hours, and it escaped my notice until now.
Another LHS thread, probably the most discussed topic on these forums. Simply gotta be.
Hey, I love the LHS as much as the next guy. But all three of the LHS's that I used to patronize have all closed. They all went down for the same reasons. These reasons have all been discussed ad nauseum.
They are all gone except the ones that are still in the process of going.
Arggggggggghhhhh.
CTValleyRR But the hobby shops -- especially the dedicated train shops -- share a lot of the blame for their demise. Unfortunately, retail is all about inventory management. First and foremost, you gotta have it to sell it, and you have to aggressively price dead stock to move it (I've gotten many a bargain at my LHS because he had priced an item to move -- when I ask "what's wrong with it?" the answer is always, "I've had it too long"). Never stocked, never sold! The biggest advantage that a brick and mortar establishment has over an e-tailer is instant gratification. The opportunity to inspect the product close up is another. Many hobby shops lock up their stock so that you can get a better view on the Internet, and keep the same old dead stock on the shelves long after the box corners are worn smooth, and then lament the lack of sales.
But the hobby shops -- especially the dedicated train shops -- share a lot of the blame for their demise. Unfortunately, retail is all about inventory management. First and foremost, you gotta have it to sell it, and you have to aggressively price dead stock to move it (I've gotten many a bargain at my LHS because he had priced an item to move -- when I ask "what's wrong with it?" the answer is always, "I've had it too long"). Never stocked, never sold! The biggest advantage that a brick and mortar establishment has over an e-tailer is instant gratification. The opportunity to inspect the product close up is another. Many hobby shops lock up their stock so that you can get a better view on the Internet, and keep the same old dead stock on the shelves long after the box corners are worn smooth, and then lament the lack of sales.
The reason I ask is that my two teenagers much prefer going to stores for a lot of reasons such as friends/socializing, trying stuff out, instant gratification, etc. When I ask their friends they tell me the same thing and this includes many different races--Indian, Asian, Caucasian, Latino, AA,etc as middle class. From my experience my wife buys the most using the internet and so her friends. Of course I do as well. So, from my experience the internet buyers tend to be those who are older/working--post high school.
And yet from our experiences most of us on this forum probably developed our love of trains before graduating high school. And without the LHS having something to put your hands on to help you with those early experiences, do you think it would have been as good??? Maybe, but for a youngster few things beat instant gratification--seeing it, touching it, buying it, using it.
I generally post similar comments each time this topic comes up.
First of all, WGH estimates that there are half a million model railroaders in the US, who spend about half a billion (or about $1000 each) annually on train stuff. I can't imagine that the hobby has ever been a whole lot bigger than that, so I don't think it's fair to blame video games or other distractions.
Similarly, interests change as we age. When I graduated from college, I loved my computer game.... pretty much the only one available: Flight Simulator. While I still enjoy computer games, my interest has shifted from the action-oriented / real-time games to the more cerebral ones. Similarly, I now really enjoy MAKING things with my hands and tools, so that I spend very little time actually on the computer any more.
Doing things right costs a lot of money. You've gotta have inventory to draw the customers (and get the sales), and you've got to have a constant flow of new items to keep them coming back. And you've got to compete with the e-tailers -- your profit on an item that you don't sell is $0, so you've got to figure out what price moves the item at a small margin for you. I know how I feel when I walk into a store looking for a loco, model kit, or rolling stock: if I;m getting it for less than MSRP, I think I'm getting a bargain, despite the fact that I could probably find it still cheaper on line if I looked. And you have to be willing to suck up the occasional damaged piece -- it's an opportunity for a quick sale. It doesn't have to be on the low shelves where every child can poke it, but it shouldn't be locked away where a prospective buyer has to spend 5 minutes trying to find the right clerk so he can look at it. One of my local shops has everything in a big display case, and if you spend more than 30 seconds looking at the same model, someone will ask you if you'd like to take a closer look at it.
And finally, as the LION (I think) said above, don't bother offering to special order stuff. These days, anyone can do that. You need to be the instant gratification guy -- like when I use my last strip of 0.01 styrene at 9:00 Saturday night, I know where I can get more on Sunday morning.... you ARE open Sundays, right? Because the Internet is.
Tastes and interests change.
Remember when video games were the exclusive domain of nerds and weirdos? Now a major video game release rivals movie money. Call of Duty Modern War 3 has already made over $780m in sales. It hasn't been out a week. Can you imagine a movie making $780m in six days?
Guilty here of foregoing the local hobby shop. The shelves are thin with generally high prices. Sometimes they carry old, out-of-production stuff but by and large, I never go there and I shop online at hobby stores that have a better selection. The $10-$15 in shipping easily beats the time and money I have to spend driving the 60 miles round trip. Part of the reason they continue to have out-of-production stuff is because they sell at or above MSRP in most instances and don't sell online.
The last time I did shop there, I noticed Shinohara #5 turnouts were on sale ($5.00 off MSRP). I grabbed a few together with some CA. On the way home, I realized they didn't even discount the turnouts for the "sale." It was about that time I said "forget it" and decided to go straight online.
I think hobby shops 'could' stay relevant if they were more involved in clinics, customer service, layaway on special orders, etc., but frankly, the ones that I have frequented aren't all that helpful, even when I have my son along.