Point taken - frustration was speaking more loudly than sense.
Strezzy
Been in that boat, too, Jim. I understand...
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Add me to the list of BLI steam fans. I have owned nine of them: four of the original Blue Box USRA Heavy Mikes, and five of the Paragon USRA Lights (I'm down to one heavy, simply because I needed more of the lights!). I've had ZERO problems with any of them, aside from some overlube issues. They all run great and have been behaving themselves very nicely, even the four that I currently have on loan to a friend who's backdating a LARGE home layout from 1970 to 1956. Those engines have been run heavily for two years now without a single problem. I plan on selling off what's left of my BRASS USRA Mikes in order to get more BLI Mikes.
Speaking of that large home layout, my friend also has about a dozen BLI light and heavy Mikes of his own. He's had ZERO mechanical issues (he's a bit pickier than I am when it comes to decoders, so does occasionally rip out the BLI guts and replaces them with Tsunamis). I have another good friend who has another eight or 10 BLI Mikes as well, and he hasn't mentioned any problems with them either. Considering he's investing dozens of hours and LOTS of money on each engine to superdetail them to match a specific prototype, I'd think that he'd want to shake out any problems beforehand!
One thing I seem to see in this thread is that people have no clue as to how complex and fussy steam models really are. That most BLI engines look AND perform AND sound great right out of the box is a minor miracle compared to what this hobby has dealt with since the 1920s. Except for a couple of the commenters on this list, I doubt anyone here has ever fiddled with a Mantua or Bowser engine to get it to run reliably enough for mainline use; getting those same engines to perform well enough to SWITCH with can lead to "colorful" language. If most of you guys who were sending BLI steam back to have thrust washers installed saw the mess of brass Key and Oriental steam parts on my workbench right now, you'd all faint!
Ray Breyer
Modeling the NKP's Peoria Division, circa 1943
orsonroy:
Are your Paragons the first round or the Paragon 2s?
I have a Paragon Hudson that I have no problems with (didn't even have to "tweak"). The Paragon 2s are the issue.
Maybe we need a post on how to tweak with some visual aids. I would love to get my T1 running perfectly. It's beautful when it 's not convulsing.
JimStrez orsonroy: ... I would love to get my T1 running perfectly. It's beautful when it 's not convulsing.
... I would love to get my T1 running perfectly. It's beautful when it 's not convulsing.
Has your T1 been returned to you 'repaired'? I wonder if the techs and BLI found nothing really wrong with it, which kind of leads me to suspect there is something about your DCC system, maybe speed steps on your throttle, or something that doesn't allow this one engine to perform well on your layout. Stranger things have turned out to be the case after tons of shipping costs and transit time have passed in the night.
I will be the first to admit that the past two years don't seem to have been kind to BLI. People have written posts on their website forum complaining about Paragon and Hybrid locomotives. In most cases, pretty much all of them in fact, BLI or other membes have helped to get them fixed.
Orsonroy,
You've got a good point. I don't think there is one manufacturer for which I haven't tweaked a locomotive for one reason or another. Granted, I don't use diesel so I accept this. I've got quite a few brass models that are waiting their turn in the shop/workbench for tweaking and upgrade. I have even more from Bowser, Walthers, and yes, Bachmann's that all need tweaks for one reason or another. I can't say there's a huge price differential to any of these frankly in comparison to the brass models I have.
OK, I'll chime in.
I have 5 BLI/PCM steamers and 4 BLI/PCM diesels - results vary.
The first, an N&W class A, from the first run, was and remains perfect out of the box.
The 2nd and 3rd, two Reading T-1's, had minor issues which I fixed, poor balance (weight added in smoke box) and drawbar hit tender frame when close coupled - a liitle filing fixed that. They run and pull very nice. I replaced the rubber traction tires with nylon ones from Calumet trains - no more traction tire problems.
4th and 5th - two heavy Mikes, both ran very poorly after only a short amount of use - but I had already heavily modified them cosmenticly - so returning them was not an option - I completely disassembled them and fixed them myself, with some PURCHASED parts from BLI.
The diesels - a four unit set of F3's run very nice.
DISCLAIMER - all of these locos are DC, some came as original "stealth" DC versions, others have been deprogramed by removing decoders, replacing tenders, etc.
Not a great track record in my opinion. Especially considering I have over 30 Bachmann Spectrum steamers and have only had three duds, which they promptly replaced with engines that run perfectly.
And considering the price difference - Bachmann is a considerablely better value - I can't wait for the EM-1's, I think 4 or 5 will do nicely.
Crandell, the Bachmann J is without question one of Bachmann's weak links,and I appreciate the fairness of your comments relating to your experiance with yours.
Just to mention a few, I have nine heavy Mountains, eight 2-8-0's, four 2-6-6-2's, and five 2-8-4's converted to 2-8-2's, two 4-6-0's - all run well and look great.
As for MTH, everything I have seen suggests great mechanical build quality - but until they change their view on the electronics I am not interested. And I must say, I'm not impressed with the oversized cast metal detail, toy like drawbar spacing, and other toy like features of the sound and lighting systems.
But, I don't care for onboard sound in HO, so what do I know?
Sheldon
PS - note all following this thread closely, I successfuly built my first Mantua steam loco kit in 1969 - at age 12.
Lets not compare BLI to Spectrum. Most will agree that the Spectrum 2-8-0 is a great loco. Both of mine quit running only after a couple hours. The plastic motor gear slips on the shaft. My 44 ton is on its third motor. And both of my K4s could only pull 3 cars without spinning its drivers on a small grade until I added lead to every place I could fit it. The only good spectrum I have is the 4-8-2. That make a score of 1 out of 6. If that is a good track record then why are we complaining about BLI?
If you want the best quality control program then bring back the kit locos. All my Bowsers run great and can pull a house down. Mass production of a precision steam loco is bound to have problems every now and then. By the time a mass produced part is found out of tolerance there could probably be hundreds already assembled and packed. Take side rods for an example. If one hole is off even by a thousandth of an inch there could be binding and poor performance. Testing every loco is impractical so they randomly spot check here and there. The hundred in between could be good or bad. No one knows for sure. At least the manufacture is making good on repairing or replacing defective ones.
Pete
I pray every day I break even, Cause I can really use the money!
I started with nothing and still have most of it left!
JimStrez Every one of the Paragon 2 locos has jerked sometimes violently enough to shake the 20 cars behind it.
Sometimes that is not a mechanical problem, but a problem with the CV settings.
If you have the Back EMF settings too high for example it can cause problems. I would try setting up Decoder Pro if you don't already have it, and go thru the CVs and maybe try turning BEMF (and momentum) off and see what happens.
You might also try - if you run only in DCC - to change the CV to turn off the "dual mode" capacity so the engine only runs on DCC. Some folks have found that doing that makes the engine run better.
Also make sure the CV29 is set to allow 128 steps.
It may be none of these work, but I'd try these things before giving up on an engine.
Motley
Can you tell me a little more of this MTH flash upgrade? Or better yet show me where you read this? This is the first I have heard of this.
I would like to turn up the volume on some of my engines using the CV's
Thanks
Joe C
Pittsburgh
I have several BLI steam engines:
M1b- QSI
I1sa-Paragon II
J1- QSI
Both QSI's have been sent in for repairs. The J1 was my fault. The cost was very reasonable and living close to the company service was quick. They are all great looking and running loco's and I am happy with them. I wish they would make a smaller loco like a 2-6-0 or a 4-6-0.
Curt Webb
The Late Great Pennsylvania Railroad
http://s1082.photobucket.com/albums/j372/curtwbb/
dominic c Motley Can you tell me a little more of this MTH flash upgrade? Or better yet show me where you read this? This is the first I have heard of this. I would like to turn up the volume on some of my engines using the CV's Thanks Joe C Pittsburgh
Joe, this news has been out for several months now. I called MTH customer support, and they told me I can have all my SD70Aces upgraded with the new chip.
You can also get Ulrichmodels to do your upgrade for you for $20. http://www.ulrichmodels.biz/servlet/the-Locomotives--dsh--HO-Scale-cln-MTH-cln-Diesel--dsh--Sound/Categories
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
locoi1sa Lets not compare BLI to Spectrum. Most will agree that the Spectrum 2-8-0 is a great loco. Both of mine quit running only after a couple hours. The plastic motor gear slips on the shaft. My 44 ton is on its third motor. And both of my K4s could only pull 3 cars without spinning its drivers on a small grade until I added lead to every place I could fit it. The only good spectrum I have is the 4-8-2. That make a score of 1 out of 6. If that is a good track record then why are we complaining about BLI? If you want the best quality control program then bring back the kit locos. All my Bowsers run great and can pull a house down. Mass production of a precision steam loco is bound to have problems every now and then. By the time a mass produced part is found out of tolerance there could probably be hundreds already assembled and packed. Take side rods for an example. If one hole is off even by a thousandth of an inch there could be binding and poor performance. Testing every loco is impractical so they randomly spot check here and there. The hundred in between could be good or bad. No one knows for sure. At least the manufacture is making good on repairing or replacing defective ones. Pete
Did you return those those 2-8-0's for your free replacements? I have eight of them, never had a gear slip yet.
Yes the K4, like the N&W J, has its flaws, but can be made very nice with less skills then it takes to build a Bowser kit.
You can choose to compare oe not compare anything you want, but 30 to 9 Bachmann wins at my house. My purchases - BLI = 44% failure rate, Bachmann = 10% failure rate. I love paying twice as much for four times the problems.
BLI service department - willing but unable to help with my defective Mikados because they have been made in 4 different factories and not all parts interchange - they could not supply the needed parts.
Bachmann service department - Has replaced all three problem locos no questions asked, returned my shells the one time they could not match the road name.
And we agree on one point - the 4-8-2 Heavy is in my view one of the best locos from any manufacturer in the last 10 years. I have nine, they are the backbone of the ATLANTIC CENTRAL steam fleet.
And my five 2-8-4's converted to 2-8-2's run great as well. Those did get a lot of extra weight during the conversion, and now they pull great too.
BLI has yet to even tempt me we anytihng in last several years, but I'm making room for some EM-1's and maybe a 2-6-0 or two.
I would not have started a thread had the issue been with one or even 2 locos. 4 of 4 on the Paragon 2 line seems out of the ordinary.
I too have had an issue with a Spectrum Shay - full immediate replacement.
I too have completely functional BLI diesels. No issues here.
I will go home tonight and try those decoder suggestions. I am hoping (yes "hope" is the reason I keep coming back) that this will solve the problem.
Has anyone ever replaced the BLI decoder and put in a Tsunami?
Decoder changes (no back EMF (CV2, 3, and 4 and CV 29 set to no DC) did not work.
The only thing I will try is full decoder replacement unless some already knows this will not work.
Thanks you all for your responses!
Remember me saying at the beginning of the post about my BLI Hudson has never has a problem? Well scratch that, no power pick up the tender.
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
Strezz.
Are you running those traction tires? They have caused nothing but problems with all the BLI steamers in the club. Jerky running can also be caused by an out of quarter wheel set. It must have come with that little nut driver. Take one side rod off and run it. If you have no jerk then one or more wheel set is not quartered. I have expensive brass locos that needed re quartered.
If the frustration level becomes an issue then a hobby it is not. When the steam starts popping the safety valve its time to drop the fire for a little while and cool down then start again later. This is what I do. Its always easier the second time with a cool head.
No tractions tires - I had heard this one before.
I would be willing to try the requartering, but am not sure how. Is there a description somewhere or is it just a matter of positioning the drivers properly? In other words, how do you properly requarter the drivers?
Strezzy, if you have a hobby shop, or a repair guy nearby, who can investigate this engine's quartering, it has to be done with a tool. North West Short Line (NWSL) is a smallish company in the hobby that makes quartering tools, gear pullers, wheel pullers, entire drive sets with motors and gear towers....quite the deal, actually. But the quartering tool is a must. Some guys can eyeball it and get it so close that it works just fine.
Crandell
Strezzy.
I have had my NWSL quarter for about 20 years now. If you have steam engines then I consider it one of the essential tools along with a wheel puller. http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/NWSL-44-4-The-Quarterer-p/53-44-4.htm The puller is another tool that comes in very handy. http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/NWSL-45-4-The-Puller-Puller-Drivers-Gears-W-p/53-45-4.htm They are not hard to use and make the job of quartering very painless.
The RR I model used a left hand lead in axle quarter. I have a $500 brass steamer that I had to re due all five drivers. For some reason the Japan built loco came with a right hand lead. It took longer to remove and instal the wheels then it did to re set the quarter. I am in no way a rivet counter type but that just bothered me to no end. It was very noticeable in a double header on a curve.
Before dropping money on the tooling make sure that is the problem. Removing one side rod and running it is one way. If the jerk is gone it may well be a quarter issue. Another thing to look for is a bent side rod. They both must be the exact same length. If one is bent then a bind will be created twice for one wheel revolution. One more thing to check is to place one side rod on top of the other and make sure every hole is centered on the other. If one hole is off even by a fraction it will cause a slight bind. Quality locos will have jointed side rods and sometimes the rivets loosen and become sloppy. A couple taps with a mini ball peen hammer on an anvil will bring it back to speck.
This is in no way your problem but one of my Spectrum 2-8-0 the drive belt took a set from sitting and made the little loco wobble as it went down the track. After a couple hours of running the motor drive gear started spinning on the shaft. It has since resided on the display shelf.
Hope all this helps in some way to resolve the problem.
It sounds like I have my work cut out for me. For the record, I had been out of the hobby for 30 years and got back in 2 years ago. This "tinkering" was the part I liked.
I will keep this thread updated on the outcome so that others may benefit from any potential solutions.
I have a BLI brass-hybrid Dreyfuss Hudson that would short out between the drawbar and the tender. After trying to insulate the drawbar with no luck I took it off and tested the loco with only the wires connected. It ran perfectly with no drawbar. I then used the stock drawbar to make one out of styrene. With this installed it works great. It sucks to spend $350 dollars on a nice loco and have to re-engineer it. Hopefully this fix will help someone else.
LOL
The last time that we had this discussion, they locked the thread, but here goes.
I have seven BLI steamers. Five of them are my best steam locos. The two that aren't are the 2-10-2 and the 2-10-4.
I have 5 Spectrum steamers. They are my 5 worst steamers.
I have 3 Proto Heritage steamers. Awesome.
There seem to be diamonds and lemons with each manufacturer.
I just think that steam engines are hard to design in the first place compared to diesels.
Rich
Alton Junction
cdlaudio I have a BLI brass-hybrid Dreyfuss Hudson that would short out between the drawbar and the tender. After trying to insulate the drawbar with no luck I took it off and tested the loco with only the wires connected. It ran perfectly with no drawbar. I then used the stock drawbar to make one out of styrene. With this installed it works great. It sucks to spend $350 dollars on a nice loco and have to re-engineer it. Hopefully this fix will help someone else.
Had the same problem with my M1a, I used electrical tape on the bottom of the tender and a plastic screw that came in a Kadee kit as mounting post. Cut the head off the screw so the draw bar could slip on. I forgot all about that problem till now.
Ken
Yup, I have to agree............ the typical diesel has 8 or 12 wheels, all the same size and boxed into two "trucks". The gearing and mechanism to get the motor pile to the geared axles is pretty similar from one diesel to another.
Steamers obviously have several drive wheel configurations, thus requiring different - or modified - drive mechanisms to get power from the motor to the drive wheels that are powered. If that was all there was, I suspect problems would be minimal. But, there are lead and trailing trucks of all kinds, and a pletora of sidebars and rods and what have you attached to the outside of the drive wheels.
IMHO, you really can't compare steamers to diesels in that they are just two different animals.
BTW, my most favorite loco is the BLI ATSF 4-8-4.................
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
I read somewhere that during the 'transition' era from steam to diesel that with a steamer, it took three minutes to find the problem and three days to fix it, where with a diesel it took three days to find the problem and three minutes to fix it.
I"ve been running HO scale steam for a long, LONG time, and 'tuning' is the price I pay for all of those neat rods going up and down and in and out. Brass or plastic, all of my locos go in for 'shop time' eventually. I've only recently--within the past several years-- started to pick up a few first-generation diesels, and even as stubborn as I am about steam, I can really see why the railroads decided to switch over.
Like the prototype, model steamers need a lot of TLC, simply because of all of those moving parts. But I agree with a lot of the posters--it's nice to have a steamer that works at least decently right out of the box, without having to either take it apart (something that seems to be more and more impossible with a lot of today's steam models) or send it back to the Mfgr in the hopes of either repair or replacement (and why on earth does it take a degree in Engineering to get into a plastic steamer when with a brass one all you need to do is undo about 3 or 4 screws? ).
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
twhite (and why on earth does it take a degree in Engineering to get into a plastic steamer when with a brass one all you need to do is undo about 3 or 4 screws? ). Tom
(and why on earth does it take a degree in Engineering to get into a plastic steamer when with a brass one all you need to do is undo about 3 or 4 screws? ).
Tom,
You raise an interesting point. For the most part, my problems with steamers have been pilot trucks and trailing trucks derailing. Are you saying that is not a problem with brass steamers? And if it is not a problem, why not? Is it simply the sheer weight of brass steamers that keeps the trucks on the tracks?
Our layout has seen just about every HO manufacturer from Marx to MTH in 43 years, and I've had to deal with issues from nearly all of them. We have seven BLI locomotives on the layout, and all still run very well. That doesn't mean we haven't had porblems with them, though. As of now, our best steam locomotives have been our two PRR M1's which are currently handling a 35 car mixed freight with ease. The first one I purchased had the broken gear on the driver axle, but much like the early Genesis pacific which had the same problem, I was able to fix it with a couple of drops of Gorilla Super Glue. It's been running that way for over two years now without having to re glue it. The second one had no problems whatsoever. The other BLI locos needed little attention, and work well. I have had worse problems with other manufacturers, like our Proto 2000 steam fleet. One C&O Kanawa had valve gear issues on both sides, and I had to repair them. I had to solder jumper wires on a MTH K4 from engine to tender for better pickup. It's smoke unit died a few months ago. Brass locomotives are great lookers, but few have DCC installed, and they are a nightmare to equip with decoders. Only two of the five brass locos that I own are DCC equipped. That goes for older Rivarossi and Bachmann locos as well. For the cost of these new locos, we expect good performance out of the box, but with all of the working parts, you have to be ready for anything. BTW, my new MTH Nickel Plate Berk has a heck of a squeak in the drive somewhere. I'd better find my Labelle oil and give it the once over today!
-Stan
I've had 3 BLI C&O T-1 (Texas class 2-10-4) I never had a problem other than a broken lighting wire (my fault). Two of these were their Blueline series. I didn't appreciate the sound of the bluelines so much. Sounded a little "tinny/hollow" The QSI equipped one however sounded excellent.
I wouldn't trade them for the world! They are excellent runners and are very very heavy. This makes them useful haulers as opposed to Bachmann's H-4, H-5, and Berks (and P2K Berks for that matter) which look pretty, but barely haul anything.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!