jeffrey-wimberly One reason steam locomotives stayed around as long as they did was because of something called World War 2.
One reason steam locomotives stayed around as long as they did was because of something called World War 2.
Yep, that's about it. Diesels were starting to make big inroads in th late 1930's. Then with the war every engine that ran on track was needed. No time for any thing new. Since the steamers were there they were used. which made lots of sense.
Just a brief reading of history shows that the railroads were more then ready to give up the high maintenance steam engines. Diesels could be mixed and matched for the power needed with far less cost and effort..
This is my take on it. Oh, by the way I also find diesels to be far more exciting then steam for a model railroad. ever though steam is what I saw a lot of at the SP South San Francisco yard in the 50's
Ken G Price My N-Scale Layout
Digitrax Super Empire Builder Radio System. South Valley Texas Railroad. SVTRR
N-Scale out west. 1996-1998 or so! UP, SP, Missouri Pacific, C&NW.
His message is that he just doesn't know steam, and he finds it about as appealing as many of us find an Edsel appealing
Is that really true? I wasn't around when sailing ships were the primary means of ocean transportation, but I find them extremely fascinating. A lack of day to day unfamiliarity really isn't a reason for not likeing something. I also wasn't around when stationary steam engines powered factories, but I'm quite willing to pay to see an industrial steam engine in action. And if someone's got an old steam tractor steamed up, well.....
An Edsel is unappealing because, well, quite frankly, Edsels are ugly (and their mothers dressed 'em funny). They also represent the excesses of the 50's at their worst.
Andre
Actually as a modeler that models both steam and diesel with a bias towards prototype steam I am grateful to be able to respond to this thread. I’ll get this out of the way first by saying that I model 1ate 1940’s Seaboard Air Line and I do like their diesels – some quirky diesels, they operated at this time – I don’t see these as being box cars on wheels but pieces of classic industrial design that I relate to and have a historical interest in.
I was born in 1947, steam was an early fascination and I remember having the stink frightened out of when, as a small boy standing along side this steaming, hissing vibrating, panting, noise making, bell clanging, black behemoth, and then the engineer pulled the whistle cord. Or hearing an engines whistle at the crossing a mile or so distance away tearing out of my house running to the curve in the road above the tracks to see steam in action; smoke and steam and side rods flashing pulling passenger and freight trains – it’s living breathing untiring energy, might and strength and movement with all of its vitality on the outside. The memories of steam locomotives is very real to me and it’s wonderful to have them still in my head.
But back to MRR – I have to agree that with my specific modeling interests I do face the same difficulties that you describe as one of the reasons for you not to model steamers. I don’t, nor would I want, these unfortunate hurdles to put me of modeling steam engines. They say that no two steamers – of the same class, were alike and the fact that what is predominately available for me to choose from in RTR plastic shell steamers are mainly USRA style. Not such as bad thing where these are applicable to the road I model, but pretty darn useless when I need a different model from that of a USRA steamer. So yes, I have to seek out models from other roads, just like the SAL did, but for different reasons than mine, and use those. Unfortunately this requires scouring the internet for cheaper brass models of non-USRA locomotives that I can use or detail as close to the SAL prototypes as I and my limited modeling skills in this area will allow.
A case in point: Recently listed on eBay was a GN 4-6-2, close in most respects to a much sought after Seaboard P3 Pacific. The catch was that I would need to remodel the GN’s Belpaire firebox and goodness knows what other damage I would create attempting this modification. So I wait. A similar situation arises when I need to run other wheel arrangements where either availability or price gets in the way of acquiring the models I would like to have and need to modify to represent a Seaboard prototype. Scratch building brass really is outside of my abilities and deteriorating eyesight. Fortunately I don’t have this problem with Seaboards diesel fleet, other than perhaps with two or three specific examples.
Remember, its not always those who have a personal experience of steam who model this era, often its those guys who relate to these engines and feel a connection with them – steam and the era in which these locomotives operated has this effect on some people.
Bruce
alocoThird, real steam locos are built to the railways' specifications. I would not be satisfied with commercial plastic models of USRA Mikados or Pacifics. I'd probably throw everything away except the drive train and wheels and end up scratchbuilding the boiler, cab, and tender and adding prototype specific details. That's a lot of work. But with diesels, there were standard production models purchased by many railways, and less effort is required to model a specific prototype.
Aloco has much to learn. Steam has some charms unique to the genre. I worked in 1972 as the engineer at the National Railroad Museum in Green Bay (they still ran steam then). We ran steam on every weekend from Memorial Day to Labor Day. I had to go out back of the locomotive shed (where we kept most of the static displays) every Saturday and Sunday morning to steam up the locomotive.
Just after sunup, with the air cool and crisp, and the birds singing, I start the air compressor for the blower, climb into the cab, throw some wood into the firebox, shovel in 4 or 5 scoops of coal, toss in a quart or so of fuel oil on top of everything, crank open the blower, toss a lighted fusee into the firebox, and slam the door. Then after I checked the lubricators, and oiled around, I could sit back and relax, and just watch the steam gauge. The occasional whiff of coal smoke was like the sweetest perfume.
And running a steamer, you understand why the Native Americans dubbed them "The Iron Horse": they have a gait like a cantering horse. They (steamers) have moods, too: some mornings the engine would steam on a lit candle - other mornings they'd get cantankerous, and take a hundred pounds of coal, just to move the needle off the peg.
I think the appeal of steam engines to many people is visual, in the way their running gear is going in about 4 directions at once when they're moving (kinda like a woman walking...), and audio (listen to a steam engine blowing for a crossing a mile away on a frosty winter night - sends chills up your spine!), and smell (that whiff of coal smoke, and hot valve oil). Diesels on the other hand are noisy all the time, smelly (not in a good way; like a bus or a truck) and visually uninteresting.
I heard an old engine shop worker describe the difference in another way: With a steamer, a problem can be spotted in 10 seconds, and take two hours to fix; with a diesel, it takes two hours to find the problem and 10 minutes to fix it.
A steamer doesn't hide anything - all its workings are on the outside for all to see. A diesel hides everything behind sheet metal panels, like it's ashamed of it. A steam engine's beauty and appeal lies in the fact that it follows a basic design principle: form follows function. That's one reason why attempts to "streamline" the steam engine rarely improved its visual appeal. That's why many modelers who have never seen a real 1:1 steam locomotive in action are still drawn to them.
"I love the smell of coal smoke and hot valve oil in the morning!"
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Gary M. Collins gmcrailgNOSPAM@gmail.com
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"Common Sense, Ain't!" -- G. M. Collins
http://fhn.site90.net
sfcouple Young man, you are missing out on a lot of fun. I rode in the cab of a Shay Locomotive in Cass, West Virginia and let me tell ya that thing is a living breathing beast. It is alive.
Young man, you are missing out on a lot of fun.
I rode in the cab of a Shay Locomotive in Cass, West Virginia and let me tell ya that thing is a living breathing beast. It is alive.
No doubt it'd be fun to get a cab ride in a real steam loco. Like I said at the beginning of this thread, I like to see real steam locos in action. They are interesting to watch.
locoi1saYou can bash steam models all you want. People have died to give you that right. No one ever said that you have to have this or that or you can't be a model railroader.
No, I'm not bashing them - although if I were a steam modeler I'd be kitbashing them.
I don't model steam in HO because I model the year 1974, a period long after the last steam locos were retired.
I model the year 1956 in N scale, and I do have a couple steam locos in my N scale fleet. I would like to add a few more, but the selection is limited. A couple decent running 0-6-0 switchers and a 4-8-2 Mountain would be nice.
First, I am too young to remember the steam era. The last steam locomotives were taken out of service the year I was born. Without any real steam locomotives to inspire me, I have no incentive to model them.
-----------------------------------------
While I can vividly recall the last days of main line steam I have no real desire to model those things even though the thought has cross my mind from time to time so,I don't think age has anything to do with not modeling steam.
Besides all that modeling the steam era in its truest form may be near impossible.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Hey, aloco, stick this in your pipe and smoke it!
Alton Junction
I was born in 1954, the year of the GP9. By the time I became aware of what a railroad is the steam locomotive was gone. My experience with live steam was at museums or fan trips. So what I modeled was diesel themed, with a few steamers thrown in for context, fantrip engines if you will. There is no native historical context for me to compare what it was like in the steam era, I read profusely on many railroad subjects and could profess knowledge about some parts of it. But what is being said here by many is we often model what we grow up with and closely and clearly remember.
And saying all of the above, I've written a book about a man who dearly loved steam. He saw his first steam locomotive at the age of 8 and decided then and there to become a locomotive engineer. Red Standefer began his Cotton Belt engine service career in 1917 as an engine watchman, became a fireman in 1918, was promoted to engineer in 1939. And when he retired in 1967 he was the #1 seniority Cotton Belt engineer in TEXAS. Red showed me what it was like to appreciate those that follow steam's path.
Ed in Kentucky
Interesting scenario here..in Woodstock ON we had a couple of switchers...2-6-0's if I'm not off here...when I was about 6..in 1960...yes, some areas did still have them...but not many.
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Diesels are foreign oil guzzeling labor busters. Steam locomotives run on domestic coal, and employ a heck of a lot more people to maintain and operate. The decline in railroading in this country can be directly connected to the demise of steam power. Also, Diesels have no soul. I know, I'm a retired engineer. They're like driving a big rig with 100 trailers. I love hearing the stories of the engineers and firemen on the steamers. They could identify a loco by the sound of the whistle, or the skipped beat of the air pump. They'd tell you about the switcher that would "use water with the air pump running", or the mallet with the ring in her stack. The only cool diesels were the early ones. F units, FA's PA's GP's RS2's Baldwin sharks centipedes, many more. We have a fairly balanced layout representing the transitional period of the early 1950's with 35 steam locos and 37 diesels. Everyone runs what they like here, and I always keep steamers out on the mainline. One more point, steamers needed turntables. That's what people flock to see on our layout, a working turntable with a steam locomotive on it!
-Stan
sfcouple:
---------------------------------
You ever fire a steam locomotive?
I fully believe what my Grandpap said even though his spoken words is unprintable so,I will write in plain english.
Any man that likes a steam locomotive has never fire one or is a fool*.
Grandpap was always blunt and to the point.
* Even though I was 5 or 6 years I knew the "fool" he was referring to was my other Grandpappy who loved running a steam locomotive more then anything.
B&O1952 The decline in railroading in this country can be directly connected to the demise of steam power.
The decline in railroading in this country can be directly connected to the demise of steam power.
Yes, it had nothing to do with all the other things that happened between 1925 and 1960.
Why I'm not interested in why someone's not interested in steam.
1. I doubt I'll convince the person to change their opinion.
2. They like what they like, I like what I like.
3. In the grand scheme of things does it matter?
4. I know that opinion's change as one grows older :)
I'm waiting for the day where I have enough layout that I can pull a drag of 60' hi-cube boxcars and pneumatic covered hoppers with my USRA Light Pacific.
I used to be clueless, but i've turned that around 360 degrees.
I think that we should start a movement to ban aloco from the forums.
Hey, seriously though, he replied to another thread about some steam engines that he owns. What's up with that?
http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/t/194085.aspx
Rich
richhotrain Hey, seriously though, he replied to another thread about some steam engines that he owns. What's up with that? http://cs.trains.com/TRCCS/forums/t/194085.aspx
BobH13 Why I'm not interested in why someone's not interested in steam. 1. I doubt I'll convince the person to change their opinion. 2. They like what they like, I like what I like. 3. In the grand scheme of things does it matter? 4. I know that opinion's change as one grows older :)
5. In a hundred years who's gonna care?
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
100 years from now someone is going to find a treasure trove of forum topics on an old trains.com site archived by some rather eccentric old gentlemen and discover "The Great Steam Debate Of 2011"
BRAKIE sfcouple: Young man, you are missing out on a lot of fun. I rode in the cab of a Shay Locomotive in Cass, West Virginia and let me tell ya that thing is a living breathing beast. It is alive. --------------------------------- You ever fire a steam locomotive? I fully believe what my Grandpap said even though his spoken words is unprintable so,I will write in plain english. Any man that likes a steam locomotive has never fire one or is a fool*. Grandpap was always blunt and to the point. * Even though I was 5 or 6 years I knew the "fool" he was referring to was my other Grandpappy who loved running a steam locomotive more then anything.
Brakie,
No, I've never fired a steam locomotive but when I took my ride in the Shay I asked the "real" engineer if I could take some coal home with me. He said sure, so I packed a few lumps in my pockets with the idea of grinding them up for a real coal load on my steamers. Never did, I have them on my shelf as a memento of my very interesting ride on Shay #11.
Wayne
Modeling HO Freelance Logging Railroad.
There's never time to do it right, but always time to do it over.....
---------------
Wayne,I never fired one either but,if I was in good health I would love to fire a steam locomotive for a day or two just to see if my Grandpap was right.
I remember reading a quote (can't recall who said it) that "this is a hobby, not a religion." I agree. Model whatever you're interested in.
I'm old enough to remember seeing steam locos in service and so I model the year I was born, 1947. I like the atmosphere of the era, the movies, etc., and most of all the railroads of that time. But that's just my preference.
I used to not like steam locomotives. Dad had a couple, mostly 0-4-0's, a 0-6-0 w/tender & his 4-4-0 V&T Reno. Loved it when he brought out the Reno though.
I then started reading about steam in Trains Magazine. Hmmm! Woah! Really? that much horsepower out of that????? WOW!
That's when I started liking steam, no wait, Loving steam. KInda helps that Canadian Pacific has one of the nicest looking steam roster. Note I said one of the nicest! Chill please!
My son has loved steam from a really early stage, probably has something to do with Thomas the Tank Engine & the fact I have several steamers for the layout.
I was born in the late 60's, CN was still doing the excursions around Toronto. Never made on one though.
Biggest thrill was being on CPR's private cars behind 2816 in 2003 & then in the cab of her in 2004 while she was still alive & breathing fire. No cab ride though. It is one noisy working environment.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCBgZuihTYU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb_eNClF2I4&NR=1
Please excuse the video, i was juggling the video camera, a 35mm camera & a digital camera all at the same time
Gord
Brought to you by the letters C.P.R. as well as D&H!
K1a - all the way
aloco I notice there are a lot of steam loco enthusiasts on this forum, and whenever I come across a steam-related thread I just bleep right over it. Why? First, I am too young to remember the steam era. The last steam locomotives were taken out of service the year I was born. Without any real steam locomotives to inspire me, I have no incentive to model them. Second, after having seen a couple real steam locomotives operating at museums I found it much more exciting to see the real thing than to look at a model running on a layout. ( 1) The steam, the smoke, the sparks, the flames, the smell, and the chugging of a real steam loco can't be replicated in miniature, especially not with electrically powered model railroad equipment. Third, real steam locos are built to the railways' specifications. I would not be satisfied with commercial plastic models of USRA Mikados or Pacifics. I'd probably throw everything away except the drive train and wheels and end up scratchbuilding the boiler, cab, and tender and adding prototype specific details. That's a lot of work. (2) But with diesels, there were standard production models purchased by many railways, and less effort is required to model a specific prototype.
I notice there are a lot of steam loco enthusiasts on this forum, and whenever I come across a steam-related thread I just bleep right over it. Why?
Second, after having seen a couple real steam locomotives operating at museums I found it much more exciting to see the real thing than to look at a model running on a layout. ( 1) The steam, the smoke, the sparks, the flames, the smell, and the chugging of a real steam loco can't be replicated in miniature, especially not with electrically powered model railroad equipment.
Third, real steam locos are built to the railways' specifications. I would not be satisfied with commercial plastic models of USRA Mikados or Pacifics. I'd probably throw everything away except the drive train and wheels and end up scratchbuilding the boiler, cab, and tender and adding prototype specific details. That's a lot of work. (2) But with diesels, there were standard production models purchased by many railways, and less effort is required to model a specific prototype.
(1) Ditto with a box on wheels, (pardon me, Diesels) but at least with a Steam Loco there is all kinds of movement to watch. With the boxes on wheels, all you can do is get dizzy watching the wheels go round. I can do that watching the Merry-Go-Round in the Micro Wave Oven. Real men and Ladies that model the steam era just never get tired of watching and enjoying all the different makes and models of Steam Loco's with all of the moving parts and imagining all that wonderful steam hissing and spitting. At least not this man.
(2) Yep. Every box the same except for the paint job. BUT, you still get to watch the wheels go round. OOOOOH!!!
But then again, it's your railroad. Who am I to tell you what to model. Have fun. That's what it's all about. Isn't it???
Just my worth.
Blue Flamer.
BRAKIE You ever fire a steam locomotive?
Yes. The hardest job on a steam locomotive is that of the fireman.
I fully believe what my Grandpap said even though his spoken words is unprintable so,I will write in plain english. Any man that likes a steam locomotive has never fire one or is a fool*.
I'm an exception to that, I guess. I find it a very satisfying job, though neither easy or glamorous. I like it when I can toss in a shovel full of coal and place it precisely where on the fire I want it to go. I'm getting a bit long in the tooth for the job now, though - don't know if the creaky joints would still handle it.
NittanyLion wrote in response to me: "Yes, it had nothing to do with all the other things that happened between 1925 and 1960". And what would the other factors be? I'll bet they had to do with internal combustion, Electricity, or another mode of transportation relying on oil. If these weren't available, what would we have? Electricification was not cheap, and although many Railroads may have gone that way eventually, the Steam locomotive most likely would have remained the main source of power without the invention of the internal combustion engine. I'm not ranting against the diesel, heck they're a lot easier on the engineer, but their arrival was the biggest turning point in the history of railroading.
If you wish to operate diesels exclusively, that's ok. Steamers are more fun.
B&O1952 Diesels are foreign oil guzzeling labor busters. Steam locomotives run on domestic coal, and employ a heck of a lot more people to maintain and operate. The decline in railroading in this country can be directly connected to the demise of steam power. Also, Diesels have no soul. I know, I'm a retired engineer. They're like driving a big rig with 100 trailers. I love hearing the stories of the engineers and firemen on the steamers. They could identify a loco by the sound of the whistle, or the skipped beat of the air pump. They'd tell you about the switcher that would "use water with the air pump running", or the mallet with the ring in her stack. The only cool diesels were the early ones. F units, FA's PA's GP's RS2's Baldwin sharks centipedes, many more. We have a fairly balanced layout representing the transitional period of the early 1950's with 35 steam locos and 37 diesels. Everyone runs what they like here, and I always keep steamers out on the mainline. One more point, steamers needed turntables. That's what people flock to see on our layout, a working turntable with a steam locomotive on it!
Your dog don't hunt, my friend!
Admittedly any internal combustion engine is "guzzling" foreign oil but that is the result of a p-poor and very short sighted fifty year old lack of a sound engergy policy which would have allowed us to increase our domestic production as consumption increased. It was always advocated that it was better to be consuming Saudi oil than Texas oil because we needed to conserve our oil resources in the interest of national security. There is nothing really defective in that argument but up until the 1950s we were one of the world's largest oil exporting nations. The purpose of the WWII-era gas rationing and 35MPH speed limit had nothing whatsoever to do with the conservation of oil -- it had to do with the conservation of rubber. If you will remember those Sons of Nippon had taken control of 85% of the rubber production in February of 1942 when they drove the British out of Malaya. Sometime in the late 1950s however there was a rapid proliferation of the number of American automobiles needing fuel -- in 1940 there was only about one automobile for every three households; by 1960 this had risen to about 1.2 automobiles per household -- and, with our energy policy now being conservation of our domestic supply, it became increasingly necessary for us to begin importing oil from abroad to meet our fuel needs both for ttransportation and manufacturing.
What do you say we conserve oil by returning to the use of coal for industrial use as well as home heating. I remember riding the tractor out in the field and looking up and seeing smoke belching from the farmhouse chimney and saying, "Ah, yes! Gramma's fixin dinner!" If we eliminated the consumption of oil we could get rid of all those pesky tractors and go back to farmin with horses. It took about five times as many farmhands producing food in the old horse days as it does today using internal combustion. I don't know about you but I've looked at enough north-end-of-southbound-horses in my life to know that I don;t wanna go back to them romantic days of yesteryear. Boy, I;ll tell you what! if we play our cards right we can come up with about 150 million chimneys and smokestacks all belching out prodigous quantities of black coal smoke. We can make China look like a paradise! And by golly, all those closed anthracite mines up in northeastern Pennsylvania can reopen with a flourish.
And one more thing; just as 24 thousand diesel engines replaced 44 thousand steam locomotives we can replace today's 40 thousand diesel locomotives with about 150 thousand steamers completed with the seventeen men it takes to operate and maintain em.
Yes, sir, the diesel has been the real contributor to the demise of the American railroad; I understand that everybody is shutting down day after tomorrow and we can replace all the diesel locomotives with 13 and a half million trucks. There was an article in Trains Magazine some years back dealing with the famous EMD103; the diesel that didf it! So successful was the 103's coast to coast journey that Emd's major problem became convincing the railroads that it was in their economic interest to replace a 50 thousand dollar steam locomotive with a 200 thousand dollar diesel locomotive. They did it in about 20 years; we should hunt all those underhanded salemen down and string them up by their t . . . . . . . . . . well, at least by a big toe!
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
National Train Day in Winslow Arizona, 2010, the Grand Canyon Railway had an engineer in the cab of #29 which was a non-operating 2-8-0 on display to answer questions and act as a docent.. The BNSF had loaned one of their new diesels for display also, and when someone commented on the comfortable cab in the computer equiped diesel the docent engineer in #29 disparagingly commented "It's a girly engine". When the laughter subsided we admitted that said it all.
Ernie C
Mr. Poteet, I never said that the diesel was the real contributor to the demise of the american railroad. I think you shouldn't put words in my mouth! I imagine though that you would blame something like labor costs? Anyway, I have faith in the american railroad surviving. I think that once we finally break away from dependence on foreign oil, the Railroads will only get stronger.