Sorry guys, but this is not the right forum to debate gas taxes. This thread will be locked.
--Steven Otte, Model Railroader senior associate editorsotte@kalmbach.com
Higher taxes on gas or anything else to pay for what I receive in the way of services is okay with me. I am a right of centre blue collar guy and I prefer to pay for what I get now even it it lowers my standard of living ( which doesn't seem to be the case ) and even if I don't agree with what the Government spends my money on.
Before anyone scoffs at the tax load of another country they better look in the mirror and think about the debt they are leaving their future generations. The Canadian Government slipped from surplus to deficit when the recent downturn happened. I will really be ticked if they are not back in surplus within five years. I don't want to steal from my children just so I can have more trains.
I want my children to have a better life than I did ( and I have had a great life ) Not struggling because I didn't want to pay my way.
Who was it that said " leave more than you came with" ?
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
If anyone is to be blamed for the high cost of model railroad equipment,we are to be blamed for that.There are quite alot of "modelers" that want the details,sound,all the fancy stuff on the freight cars and locomotives. I dont.I have been in this hobby for 36 of my 40 years living.I grew up building kits,using my imagination,making things out of cardboard,using REAL dirt and rocks form a field for details,and building my layout with the knowledge from my days in school.Now we have LAZY modelers (oh there out there) whom just want to take it out of the box and put it on the layout. And they call him / her a model railroader doing this? What fun is it to put a RTR locomotive,freight car,or building on your layout? What if you want to put a interior in a building,or even lights with a RTR building.Cant do it without wrecking the whole thing. Look at the locomotives....I want to put my own details on it,the way I want it to look, not what Athearn,MTH,Broadway,or any other manufacturer should feel is necessary to have on it. I always thought that the manufacturers WERE to listen to us,the model railroaders,to tell them what we wanted,and how we wanted them formed,like in kits,or partially assembled.Seems no one is listening to us at all.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL blownout cylinder: mmmm....and off to crabbiness we go.... Any wagers how many pages this will go before it gets locked up? I wager 2 pages..then a delete.... I'll bet I could get it locked real fast, gas prices?, China's standard of living, "spoiled" people in the US - following up on any one of these could do it in a hurry. Fact is things cost what they cost, you either want it or you don't, you can aford it, or you can't. A liberal I knew years ago, yes a liberal, always said "the answer to inflation is to make more money". He was being somewhat sarcastic, but the point is control what you can, don't complain about what you can't. Being self employed I don't "complain" about the price of anything - nor do I do business with people who complain about the prices I charge. If I think the price of something is too high, I shop around or do without, depending on the level of "need". If I really need something, I work harder or do without something else. Is that $299.00 price with DCC and sound? When Proto first hit the market there was no DCC with sound. I didn't buy DCC than, I still don't - I decided it was not worth the money. Despite how many people tell me I'm wrong, I still think it's too expensive for what you get, especially the sound part. We all make our choices and set our own "values" on things. (now this one might get us locked) To our European friends who suggest we join them and settle for less, I say nonsense, I personally have worked hard and don't expect anything from the government or from others - and I'm tired of funding those who can work and don't - that situation is already out of control here, God forbid if ever gets like Europe or Great Brittan. Gaffen, you may think it's fine to pay $9.50 for gas, a price that is more tax than product, good for you. You can stay there, I promise to stay here. And, it appears on that other thread that many agree with me, $2000 a year spent on this hobby is typical, if not low. If gas is $4 because of the market fine, but if it is $10 because of socialist taxes, I'm ready for the revolution - just like the founders of this country. My guns are loaded and I'm ready to vote for anybody not currently in office - kind of like our mid term Congressional elections - a big change back to conservative may be comming - sorry Europe, we are not going to roll over and become like you. There are reasons our ancestors left in the first place. The inflation ajusted price of gas in the US compared with the mid 60's is nearly $3 anyway, the current $4 runup is just the nervious market over the current mid east non sense. It will go back down, at least to $3 where it belongs - yes it belongs at $3. If it was worth 30 cents in 1968, than it's worth $3 today - sorry gas price whinners. As for China production, if the US government would ignore some of the wackos, eliminate some of the rediculious taxes and regulations, our models could be made here, we could all make more money because OUR economy would be stronger, and we could afford any higher prices that brought with it. Toyota and Ford make cars here and sell them just was well as any that come over on a boat? Well if this rant does not get us locked and asked to move on, we are surely doomed. Sheldon
blownout cylinder: mmmm....and off to crabbiness we go.... Any wagers how many pages this will go before it gets locked up? I wager 2 pages..then a delete....
mmmm....and off to crabbiness we go....
Any wagers how many pages this will go before it gets locked up?
I wager 2 pages..then a delete....
I'll bet I could get it locked real fast, gas prices?, China's standard of living, "spoiled" people in the US - following up on any one of these could do it in a hurry.
Fact is things cost what they cost, you either want it or you don't, you can aford it, or you can't.
A liberal I knew years ago, yes a liberal, always said "the answer to inflation is to make more money". He was being somewhat sarcastic, but the point is control what you can, don't complain about what you can't.
Being self employed I don't "complain" about the price of anything - nor do I do business with people who complain about the prices I charge.
If I think the price of something is too high, I shop around or do without, depending on the level of "need".
If I really need something, I work harder or do without something else.
Is that $299.00 price with DCC and sound? When Proto first hit the market there was no DCC with sound. I didn't buy DCC than, I still don't - I decided it was not worth the money. Despite how many people tell me I'm wrong, I still think it's too expensive for what you get, especially the sound part. We all make our choices and set our own "values" on things.
(now this one might get us locked) To our European friends who suggest we join them and settle for less, I say nonsense, I personally have worked hard and don't expect anything from the government or from others - and I'm tired of funding those who can work and don't - that situation is already out of control here, God forbid if ever gets like Europe or Great Brittan.
Gaffen, you may think it's fine to pay $9.50 for gas, a price that is more tax than product, good for you. You can stay there, I promise to stay here. And, it appears on that other thread that many agree with me, $2000 a year spent on this hobby is typical, if not low.
If gas is $4 because of the market fine, but if it is $10 because of socialist taxes, I'm ready for the revolution - just like the founders of this country. My guns are loaded and I'm ready to vote for anybody not currently in office - kind of like our mid term Congressional elections - a big change back to conservative may be comming - sorry Europe, we are not going to roll over and become like you. There are reasons our ancestors left in the first place.
The inflation ajusted price of gas in the US compared with the mid 60's is nearly $3 anyway, the current $4 runup is just the nervious market over the current mid east non sense. It will go back down, at least to $3 where it belongs - yes it belongs at $3. If it was worth 30 cents in 1968, than it's worth $3 today - sorry gas price whinners.
As for China production, if the US government would ignore some of the wackos, eliminate some of the rediculious taxes and regulations, our models could be made here, we could all make more money because OUR economy would be stronger, and we could afford any higher prices that brought with it.
Toyota and Ford make cars here and sell them just was well as any that come over on a boat?
Well if this rant does not get us locked and asked to move on, we are surely doomed.
Sheldon
Sheldon,
Well said, especially about the gas taxes. As much as some want to believe, there are no free lunches, the cost is always shifted somewhere.
One big factor you left out was the rapid decline in the value of the US dollar against other currencies over the last 12--18 months. At the same time the Chinese yuan is being decoupled from the US dollar. These two factors have a compounding effect on the prices of Chinese goods imported to America.
Jay
Please do not compare European fuel prices to North American fuel prices. There are far too many basic differences between the continents for the comparison to have any validity.
Recovering former former model railroader.
Javelina No matter how you vote the world is a bigger place than the good ol' US of A. Things all over affect us, and it's up to us to do things about it, not complain. Scratchbuild, go solar, ride your bike to work if you can, do all you can to cope with things. But don't waste your time being a victim. Railroad with what you have, just like the real guys did in the Great Depression. Respectfully, Lou
No matter how you vote the world is a bigger place than the good ol' US of A. Things all over affect us, and it's up to us to do things about it, not complain. Scratchbuild, go solar, ride your bike to work if you can, do all you can to cope with things. But don't waste your time being a victim. Railroad with what you have, just like the real guys did in the Great Depression.
Respectfully,
Lou
I'm not sure I agree with this. The US could be self-sufficient if our powers-at-be would allow it. Going solar might solve the problem if I wanted to light one light bulb...I couldn't afford a solar panel big enough to power my house. Bicycles? A lot of people, me included, have moved away from the cities to escape all of the crap. There is no way I could ride a bike to work. I'm certainly not playing the victim...I just don't like where we are headed.
And to respond to another post, I have the right to complain about high gas prices. The previous pres was hammered when gas prices rose...the current occupant gets a pass.
I think we need a bit more spice in that..a few more habanero peppers oughta do it...
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
johnnyshiloh Just recieved the latest preorders from Walthers, Evident the recession is bothering anyone, $299.00 pre order on Engines up from the Standard $249.00 pre order scam in the past year,. I can't beleive that people will actually pay these prices for Model Train engines, I stopped shopping for the rest of the Recession, Due to the Fact I live in Connecticut ,where the price of Living has doubled this year , slashing my Hobby purchasing power
Just recieved the latest preorders from Walthers, Evident the recession is bothering anyone, $299.00 pre order on Engines up from the Standard $249.00 pre order scam in the past year,. I can't beleive that people will actually pay these prices for Model Train engines, I stopped shopping for the rest of the Recession, Due to the Fact I live in Connecticut ,where the price of Living has doubled this year , slashing my Hobby purchasing power
Another Rant. I have heard this for many years. It never changes.
I live in Massachusetts and prices not much different. When it gets to be too much, I get some Cheese to go with my Whine. I live on SS checks and can still get mrr items . I shop carefully on the "Net. Walther's catalog is only for reference. Actually have not bought a Walther's catalog in eight years. Walther's on line is my reference now.
I only buy what I need, not what I “think” I need.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
ndbprr ...causes the citizens to demand a higher standard of living when they see the products that develoiped countries are spending their money on.
...causes the citizens to demand a higher standard of living when they see the products that develoiped countries are spending their money on.
So, there are a billion potential model railroaders in China, eh? With a customer base that large, we could leverage the economies of scale and get some price reductions, right? Trouble is, 3/4 of them are just going to model the Pennsy like everyone else...
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
blownout cylinder mmmm....and off to crabbiness we go.... Any wagers how many pages this will go before it gets locked up? I wager 2 pages..then a delete....
Well, we always wanted cheap goods and such. And. As people discovered, they were not getting paid well to produce the stuff we wanted cheap..well, guess what? Like it or not prices are going to go up...you want them to work for pennies simply so that you could have your cheap goods?
...off my
ndbprr So anybody prefer a military engagement with China? Free trade with third world countries causes the citizens to demand a higher standard of living when they see the products that develoiped countries are spending their money on. So get used to these gas prices because China is coming on materially and will soon be the biggest importer of oil in the world. Don't forget to write your favorite politician and thank him for not allowing drilling in Anwar and to the President for shutting down Gulf drilling. We have enough oil to be self sufficient. We could blow the Arab cartel sky high just be announcing drilling would start. I will resist the desire to say more about a certain party.
So anybody prefer a military engagement with China? Free trade with third world countries causes the citizens to demand a higher standard of living when they see the products that develoiped countries are spending their money on. So get used to these gas prices because China is coming on materially and will soon be the biggest importer of oil in the world. Don't forget to write your favorite politician and thank him for not allowing drilling in Anwar and to the President for shutting down Gulf drilling. We have enough oil to be self sufficient. We could blow the Arab cartel sky high just be announcing drilling would start. I will resist the desire to say more about a certain party.
jeffrey-wimberly Those high prices have put me off of the Proto 2000 locos. Way too expensive for me. I buy the DCC Bachmann's now and put in a Digitrax decoder for motor control. I don't fret about the lack of detail.
Those high prices have put me off of the Proto 2000 locos. Way too expensive for me. I buy the DCC Bachmann's now and put in a Digitrax decoder for motor control. I don't fret about the lack of detail.
I second that notion! my Bachmann DCC OnBoards have served me well at a very reasonable price.
Sticker shock will continue in the USA on EVERYTHING you buy. If you haven't noticed, some packages are smaller than their predecessors.
AS my father says "ain't nothing I can do but pay it."
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
Don't talk to me about RIP boxes!! ...I've got 4 of them sitting here under my workbench plus who knows how many kits...and scratchbuilding supplies...
YES!! I know I'm a model junkie!!
The price of EVERYTHING has gone up, but the Walthers one is the most visibile. Why? Because MSRP from Life Like prior to the buyout was NEVER that high. But back then they weren't sold with as much discount, either. New P2K locos sold for closer to MSRP, although the MSRP was lower. Now they have a rather ridiculous MSRP (when it passes $400 for an AB set of sound locos and one of them is a dummy - come on!), but if you pay attention where you buy you won't pay anywhere near that to actually buy the loco. I have said before, and still stand by this, that the high MSRP is artificial and designed to make the product look like more of a bargain when advertised at 40% off - others with a more realistic MSRPS can't offer that much of a discount and consumers are brainwashed into believeing 40% is a better bargain than 10%, even if the price they pay is slightly higher for the 40% off item. The only people who get soaked end up being those who don't know any better and order directly from Walthers and pay full MSRP on top of ridiculously high shipping.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
It's time to work on your scenery, I guess. Foam scraps from the box under your benchwork. Plaster cloth and acrylic paint from the craft shops. Tree armatures from your yard. Maybe you can find a bargain on a set of figures at a train show. Buy a "For Sale" sign from Wal-Mart for the styrene. Back to the craft store for balsa wood strips and sheets. Before you know it, you'll be doing old-time model railroading and having a blast at it.
Or, how about working down that inventory of your own? Confess. How many kits do you have in your workroom, waiting to be assembled and painted? Confess! We know already, but we want to hear it from you. Confess!! OK, OK, I've got a City Classics diner, and a Merchants Row, half a dozen boxcars, and several Jordan vehicles. Then there's the car float and it's associated apron. I've got at least a six-month backlog there.
Who's got a "RIP box," where you put engines and cars that need work just to make them serviceable? 2 engines and 7 or 8 cars in there, too. More backlog.
When I think about it, I can spend the next year modeling without buying anything but glue and paint.
Before Crandell locks this thread, I will throw in my
It strikes me that so many of the products marketed by Walthers are manufactured in China, supposedly to keep down costs. What the heck would these products cost if they were manufactured here? Actually, I wish they were manufactured here in the good old USA.
Alton Junction
For the love of..... Stop complaining about the gas prices!
In Sweden we pay $ 9.50 per gallon! Yes! $ 9.50!!
And with higher taxes and lower incomes we still are in the hobby. And then we pay shipping,customs AND taxes on all train products we want to have.....
The fact is that the US will have to join the rest of the world sometimes.... It will be a harsh awakening, I know. But you better get ready for it.....
Swedish Custom painter and model maker. My Website:
My Railroad
My Youtube:
Graff´s channel
Guys,There are ways to cut the costs of the hobby from buying discount to used..
The last full MSRP sticker shock at my LHS showed me the folly of buying locally and now at $4.12.9 a gallon its back to on line ordering instead of a 52 mile round trip.
I will still attend the N Scale weekend in Columbus and the RPM meet in Marion since those are once a year meets and I'm not getting any younger...I will still take my two annual railfan trips to Bellevue/Sandusky and Fostoria.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
riogrande5761 Yes, with 4 dollar a gallon gasoline, and having to commute to work in DC, I won't be buying much merchandise from China so their citizens can all have Iphones etc.
Yes, with 4 dollar a gallon gasoline, and having to commute to work in DC, I won't be buying much merchandise from China so their citizens can all have Iphones etc.
Heaven forbid that anyone else on this planet have the same luxuries that Americans have.
"God bless America, and no one else" - From Chris Rock's movie, Head of State.
Just hang in there fellas...as soon as our toy suppliers find another country to exploit the prices will come down again.
TONY
"If we never take the time, how can we ever have the time." - Merovingian (Matrix Reloaded)
Folks, if you think that $ 299.00 is expensive, take a look at this:
Brawa BR 40102
This is what we have to spend here in Europe.
The loco is made in China, has a plastic body, NEM-type pizza cutter flanges, well, smoke and DCC w/sound is added.
There are many ways to avoid high costs in our hobby:
It is what it is!
Why don't you start scratch-building? For $10, you can buy wood shapes, glue, and any Model,RR magazine will provide pictures. Are turnouts too expensive? Buy some rail and try scratch-building them. Those who feel they must buy everything are missing a very large part of the fun of the hobby. Or maybe 70 years in the hobby has affected my viewpoint somewhat. I haven't bought a kit in 25 years.
As nice as they are I will not be purchasing anymore Proto series EMD F series locomotives. Their price has skyrocketed and while they may be very detailed and smooth pullers I find that Intermountain locomotives are every bit as comparable and significantly less expensive than the Walthers offerings. Currently I am waiting after pre-ordering a few sets of Intermountain's new FT series. I opted for the sound version and the total price is approx $150 less than the Walthers MSRP.
Why can Intermoutain keep their prices from increasing to the extent that the Walthers prices have increased?
As mentioned..model railroading can be done with what you already have as well as with scratchbuildiing...most of us had to start somewhere.
Besides, it is only a hobby..it is not a necessity of life....
Yes, with 4 dollar a gallon gasoline, and having to commute to work in DC, I won't be buying much merchandise from China so their citizens can all have Iphones etc. Gas grills? Right now buying one would be a luxury after I took a major salary cut and moved to an area with a very high cost of living just got get a job at all. That is my reality check.
Yes, I've had a good decade and have about 110 loco's and lots of rolling stock. Honestly I've been very blessed and now that the dollar is devaluing and Chinese have a higher standard of living, my purchasing has gone south and I'm only buying a little here and there. I suspect a lot of other people are in my boat. Yes, Walthers is along for the ride and we can't Shang Hi them for the current situation. But I can't afford to patronize $299 engines when I am barely able to get by.
It is true I'm having sticker shock with new products from all the manufacturers. Even more, I'm simply holding on to my wallet and not spending money on new engines, not at $150 to $300 each. I may pick up one or two more loco's if I can get them for under $90 such as the nice Athearn SD45's or SD40T-2's. Due to my economic circumstances, the prices of many better quality new engines are simply out my price range but lucky for me I've got plenty and can just bide my time and see how this goes. If price remain out of reach, I will survive and try to be content with what the good Lord has allowed me to obtain. I will likely continue to add a few odd pieces of rolling stock but certainly not at the rait I once did.
Cheers all and lets hope the economic recovery picks up or the hobby will remain squelched along with many other lines of business.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
If you are concerned about model train prices going through the roof - look at everything else. We are seeing $4 gasoline, and the next round of consumer items made in China will carry hefty price increases. I was talking with a friend in retail - he mentioned that gas grills will be going up 25-30% before the season is over. They were short-changed on orders this spring, and the 2nd installment will carry much higher prices. Candy bars went up 25 cents in the vending machine at work today.
About all I have bought as far as model trains go this year - flex track & turnouts for a new layout that I am planning for retirement. And I bought two new Milw rib-side box cars. No new engines(as if I need more).
Walthers is trying to blow out passenger cars with their Amtrak 'Rainbow Era' promotion. A friend just bought a complete Walthers 20th Century Ltd for less that 1/2 price at Trainword last month. I suspect we are seeing existing stock being turned into fast cash so they can pay for the new arriving stock.
The great ride we have has for the past decade is running up to a reality check....
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
I have curtailed my spending drastically the past three years. One can only run so many locomotives. Becoming a packrat is just another name for hoarding. When things get too expensive, stop spending. You won't get sick or die. However, a person can get used to/addicted to spending on credit....that's a slippery slope in hobby behaviour, and probably indicative of general spending habits.
Food, shelter, transportation, insurances, clothing, and health. Everything else is gravy.
There's always darts, playing cards with friends, reading, whittling, fly tying, scratch-building things, dumpster diving....a person could keep really busy if he wanted to.