DCC Systems Poll

[darth9x9]

Hey Charles Cole,

This poll isn't meaningless if you actually read the responses. Some admit they haven't tried other systems. A few of have tried different systems and have stated as such in their responses (kbfcsme and JimdeBree).

As for everyone else,

As mentioned before - all decoders will work with each system. That is part of the NMRA spec. The problem arises at the command stations themselves as there is no standard on protocol or baud rate for throttle buses. Each manufacturer can do what they want. Digitrax uses LocoNet (loosely based on the Ethernet wiring spec and their own protocol). NCE is based on Lenz's RS485 spec (which is an IEEE wiring and protocol standard) although NCE uses a different command set and baud rate than Lenz.

There is talk that the NMRA will come out with a spec on DCC throttle buses. You can bet your last dollar that if they do, it will be based on the Lenz protocol as Berndt Lenz has made his specs open to the NMRA. Almost everything in the DCC world is based on Lenz's specs.

Here are some facts which are irrefutable:
- Digitrax is not NMRA compliant because they modified their system to allow a non-decoder equipped locomotive to run on address 00 which is spec'd out to be a broadcast address.
- Digitrax's wireless falls short of being useful. Digitrax cannot make or break a consist with their wireless throttle. They call this a feature! Just like Microsoft calls all of their bugs 'features’.

Here is a truism I have observed over the years:
There are those people who were born Digitrax and will die Digitrax. There are those people who were born NCE and will die NCE. Then there are those that were Digitrax and went NCE and have never looked back. But NEVER ONCE, have I met or heard of a person who was NCE and converted to Digitrax and was happy. That should tell you a lot about the products themselves.

Yes, Digitrax was first and captured the early market. But being the first isn't always the best. Digitrax was made by technical people for technical people. Their manual is horrible (confirmed by many Digitrax owners - even in this thread!). NCE was made by technical people for non-technical people.

Digitrax for years had the opportunity to redo their manual - they haven't. Digitrax for years had those awful two button cabs that were such a pain to use where NCE had its ProCab years before and it took Digitrax a long, long time to come out with their DT400.....too little, too late. Many had opted for NCE just because of the easier one button - one function controller. No NCE customer that I have talked to or heard about has had any regrets.

There is nothing opinionated in my reply. Everything is based on the facts (with the exception of my prediction of which protocol will be chosen for a possible future throttle bus standard).

Hey AntonioFP45,

Hopefully I supported my statements with enough facts this time.

[Anonymous]

What you said is all true, except the part about no one going from NCE to Digitrax, as I know some people that did just that. NCE is easier to use, but the Digitrax's LocoNet is much more powerful, reliable, and expandable, due to a true two-way Multiple Access network, which none of the other systems have.

In my opinion Digitrax is a much better choice for large layouts due to the ease in adding additional boosters.

Also, your "irrefutable" fact:

QUOTE: - Digitrax is not NMRA compliant because they modified their system to allow a non-decoder equipped locomotive to run on address 00 which is spec'd out to be a broadcast address.

is refutable because there is no address 00 brodcast over the rails, only inside loconet, which does not violate NMRA guidelines. The address 00 on your remote only communicates to the command station, which then raises power on the rails but does not send a DCC command (causing an analog train to move), leaving 00 open for brodcast on the rails.

[michealfarley]

Well, my NCE system is now on order. I will give a brief review on set-up, ease of operation, etc. when I test it out.

[Anonymous]

Voted Lenz.
I have Lenz, not sure if it’s the best, but it works fine with me.
But, if I look at the comparison page at Tony's train exchange DCC pages....

http://tonystrains.com/productcompare/dcccomparison.htm

I think it is the best you can get at the moment also. [:D][:D]
Rgrds
Cor

[darth9x9]

QUOTE: Originally posted by milesdf

What you said is all true, except the part about no one going from NCE to Digitrax, as I know some people that did just that. NCE is easier to use, but the Digitrax's LocoNet is much more powerful, reliable, and expandable, due to a true two-way Multiple Access network, which none of the other systems have.

In my opinion Digitrax is a much better choice for large layouts due to the ease in adding additional boosters.

Also, your "irrefutable" fact:

QUOTE: - Digitrax is not NMRA compliant because they modified their system to allow a non-decoder equipped locomotive to run on address 00 which is spec'd out to be a broadcast address.

is refutable because there is no address 00 brodcast over the rails, only inside loconet, which does not violate NMRA guidelines. The address 00 on your remote only communicates to the command station, which then raises power on the rails but does not send a DCC command (causing an analog train to move), leaving 00 open for brodcast on the rails.

Hey milesdf,

A couple of inaccuracies here. Digitrax's Loconet isn't any more 'powerful, realiable, and expandable' than Lenz's or NCE's. I recently converted a friend's 3000 sq ft layout from Digitrax to NCE. The wiring was simplified a tad bit with adding the boosters in the NCE system. The NCE system has proven more reliable than his Digitrax system. He was frustrated for 8 years with Digitrax and almost went back to DC. He is much happier with his NCE system.

Digitrax, NCE, and Lenz all have a true two-way multiple access network. Each command station communicates with the throttles. This is evident with the DT400 (Digitrax) and the ProCab (NCE) in which information from the command station is displayed.

As far as adding boosters to an NCE system, nothing is easier than daisy-chaining them with RJ11 phone cable available from Radio Shack.

Address 00 is used to broadcast command to ALL devices/decoders on the layout. Every NMRA compliant decoder will respond to instructions sent on address 00 - that is the NMRA spec. For example, the command for emergency stop.

Lastly, Digitrax does NOT raise the power on the rails to run a non-decoder equipped locomotive. If it did, it would potentially fry decoders. Instead it stretches the pulse negatively or positively to make the non-decoder equipped locomotive move. For simplicity's sake, we'll say the voltage applied to the rails is AC (though it is truly not AC but that is way beyond the scope of this forum). When the non-decoder equipped loco is sitting still, you will hear a noticable hum coming from the motor. This is the AC going back and forth equally in each direction. The motor is going back and forth so fast that it doesn't move (plus you are burning out the motor as DC motors aren't meant to be exposed to such signals). When you use the throttle to move the loco forward, the command station changes the pulse from being equally back and forth to being slightly more forward than backward. You will notice that the faster you go, the more the hum dimenishes. The same thing happens when you go in reverse but the pulse is stretched more negatively (or backward) than positively (forward). The ability to do this with a non-decoder equipped loco makes it non NMRA compliant.

I hope this sheds some light for those that actually want to understand how this works.

[ClinchValleySD40]

I tried all systems before deciding to buy. That is the only way to go if you're thinking of getting a system. Only you know what you want from a system and trying them let's you see which fits. Do not ever ask someone elses opinion on what you should buy, it's your money, spend it wisely.

I'm lucky in that I get out and operate on other layouts quite a bit. Some layouts still run DC, some analog command control (Dynatrol and RailCommand), some use Lenz, some Digitrax, some EasyDCC and some NCE. For what I wanted to do, NCE was the only one that fit the bill and I'm very happy with it.

[nslakediv]

Wow, NCE sounds true to grit. But I find it hard to believe that they to do not have any flaws of thier own. I use 4 boosters and 1 command station and have 45 decodered units with digitrax and am happy with the system. I will say I have had only minor problems that were easily fixed, and will also admit some were my fault for not reading manuel thourghly. For customer service, I have found email is the quickest way, usually in the same day. I have operated NCE and enjoyed it as much as my Digitrax. Have also operated Easy DCC and found it a little less multiple user friendly than Digitrax and NCE(response time from throttle to engine was sometimes as much as 2-3 seconds when multiple trains were operating). The point of my thread is each to his own, for newbies, operate as many systems possible and take notes and enjoy DCC.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Digitrax, NCE, and Lenz all have a true two-way multiple access network. Each command station communicates with the throttles. This is evident with the DT400 (Digitrax) and the ProCab (NCE) in which information from the command station is displayed.

False, the NCE and Lenz systems have limits, no true call and then response, it is done in a serial array, versus the ethernet standard.

QUOTE: As far as adding boosters to an NCE system, nothing is easier than daisy-chaining them with RJ11 phone cable available from Radio Shack.

The same way as Digitrax, however I believe with the NCE some configuration is required of the system. My Digitrax boosters are plug and play, with the exeception of one jumper to lable it a booster.

QUOTE: Address 00 is used to broadcast command to ALL devices/decoders on the layout. Every NMRA compliant decoder will respond to instructions sent on address 00 - that is the NMRA spec. For example, the command for emergency stop.

OVER THE LAYOUT! There is no address 00 brodcast over the layout for the analog train. The 00 brodcast is only on loconet to tell the booster to:

QUOTE: stretches the pulse negatively or positively to make the non-decoder equipped locomotive move. For simplicity's sake, we'll say the voltage applied to the rails is AC (though it is truly not AC but that is way beyond the scope of this forum). When the non-decoder equipped loco is sitting still, you will hear a noticable hum coming from the motor. This is the AC going back and forth equally in each direction. The motor is going back and forth so fast that it doesn't move (plus you are burning out the motor as DC motors aren't meant to be exposed to such signals). When you use the throttle to move the loco forward, the command station changes the pulse from being equally back and forth to being slightly more forward than backward. You will notice that the faster you go, the more the hum dimenishes. The same thing happens when you go in reverse but the pulse is stretched more negatively (or backward) than positively (forward).

Of course it would fry the decoders, ever thought that I was simplifying things? Isn't putting more positive pulse on than negative almost the same as saying that you gave it more power?

QUOTE: The ability to do this with a non-decoder equipped loco makes it non NMRA compliant.

How so? Why does it matter? The system still works perfectly with your decoders! It still operates with NMRA compliancy! Why does it matter that I can let my neighbor run his train on my layout? Isn't that the whole goal, to have fun? Why would you care if my system can run an analog locomotive? Is that going to make you somehow angry? I don't understand why anyone would look down on a something because it has an optional feature that does not affect any other feature of it. If you don't like that particular feature, don't use the offending feature. Don't call the product bad because of it.

It is like saying that a particular car is bad because it has fold down seats. If you don't like the fold down seats, then don't use them. It is no reason not to buy the car if it has all of the other features you are looking for, and, failing that, telling others that the car is bad because of it.

[Anonymous]

I have a Digitrax Chief system, that started with as an "Empire Builder'...Very satisfied. I have two boosters now, with their DCS 100 as the main booster, with the DB150 as the second deck power booster...Their new signaling decoder systems are excellent!! I have never enjoyed model railroading as much as I have with Digitrax!! Their decoders are very affordable as well. Digitrax is very hard to beat!!

[simon1966]

How long will it be before someone comes out with HO scale decals of the little guy pissing on Digitrax/ NCE like the Ford/Chevy bumper stickers? [:D]

[cmrproducts]

>> I recently converted a friend's 3000 sq ft layout from Digitrax to NCE. The wiring was simplified a tad bit with adding the boosters in the NCE system. The NCE system has proven more reliable than his Digitrax system. He was frustrated for 8 years with Digitrax and almost went back to DC. He is much happier with his NCE system.<<

Almost sounds like the layout I visited the week end of the Train Show in Maryland in June.

Nice layout but it seemed that it took 45 minutes to get the trains up and running after a NCE command station change (to an updated one????) and then all of the sound engines would stop on every turnout. And this was overheard from the operators. Then they spent 15 minutes trying to get a train out of a tunnel that ran into a dead section of track.

The owner wasn't even down in the train room as he was up stairs playing music. So I ask why the change over from Digitrax to NCE and the one operator could not give me a good reason but just kept saying that Digitrax was junk.

I know one person that would love to change over from NCE to Digitrax as he has operated on my 25 x 75 layout and can not understand how we can run 25 trains on mine and he can't on his NCE. He just keeps buying new updated command stations? He says that he has too much invested in keypads and command stations. BTW his layout is as big as mine.

And why is it so hard to find a LHS that has a NCE demo unit. But at every train show there is the Digitrax system for all to try out. I would like to try out the other brands of DCC but no one within a reasonable distance has one to use on a really big layout.

Bob H Clarion, PA

[Anonymous]

I have also seen many such examples of this on NCE layouts.

I never have had to buy a new Digitrax equipment. All but it's oldest stuff is compatible.

[ClinchValleySD40]

In these cases it's not the systems it's the layouts. Sounds like some people have some track and/or wiring problems. Regardless of which system they use they are still going to have problems. I run up to 20 trains with as many as 60 engines all at once on my NCE system and everything is smooth as silk.

[Anonymous]

I really don't think the Digitrax vs NCE argument is being very helpful, it seems to me that there are good things about both systems, and a lot of the bikkering here is about really technical stuff that isn't all that important to the end user who isn't a techy. Like some of the folks in the earlier posts I can only speak from personal experience and preference. If you get the chance test the system - preferably on a layout so you get a feel of how it handles in an operating session - before you buy, so much the better. But also have a good read of the manufacturers litterature and you will get a feel of how their sytem works. You'll generally either love the way it works or hate it - this is personal preference so there is no right or wrong.

Most folks in the UK, me included, run small layouts so one of the "entry level" systems is ideal. I use a Digitrax Zephyr, which I find excellent - but I also know people who use CVP, Lenz 90 and Compact (the Atlas Commander is sold as the Lenz Compact over here, showing its real origin) or also a wierd and wacky home-built system. I know of no-one here in the UK with an NCE system - simple reason - its way too expensive for most. Although I like the look of the system it was never an option for me on expense grounds alone, just like the Digitax Chief.

Why do I like the Zephyr over the other entry level systems?

• I like the Digitrax button-for-everything style of throttle, I don't like having to scroll through addresses like on Lenz
• Being able to run an analog loco on address 00 is really useful (and I really don't give a monkeys nuts whether its NMRA compliant or not)
• The Zephyr has proved to be more robust than the Lenz Compact "in the field" - I know of one guy who switched to DCC using a Lenz Compact on his exhibition layout - after blowing the second Compact he switched to a Zephyr and hasn't looked back
• The Zephyr is completely compatable with the rest of Digitrax's range of throttles; the IR wireless function of the DT300 & 400 is particularly useful - as its illegal to import or use US frequency radio throttles in the UK. I don't know if the XPA cordless phone adapter for Lenz is available here or not, if it is then thats another plus point for Lenz too
• The ability to read back CVs is a must, only the Zephyr and the Compact/Commander offer this at budget level

One of the few down sides to Digitrax has already been mentioned here - their decoder manual is not user friendly[xx(]. I just wi***hey'd sack their technical writer and get someone else to re-write it in plain English.

Bang for buck though you just can't beat the Zephyr, particularly as it gives you loads of advanced features with complete expandability. The Atlas Commander/ Lenz Compact is a close second and really that's it at budget level. However, depending on the pricing the MRC Advanced Progidy might just give Digitrax and Lenz some useful competition.

[Anonymous]

Okay, the one Zimo owner showed up and did what I should have done rather than just be flippant. The Intellibox is a multi-protocol, multi-functional unit that can, unlike the Zimo, end all the debate between NCE and Digitrax owners. After all, it's really all about the system - here it's either LocoNet or ExpressNet. The Intellibox handles both, in addition to Marklin, Roco, LGB, etc. With the Intellibox you should be able to control all that neat Digitrax stuff with your super-user-friendly NCE throttle. Personally, I think Uhlenbrock's new infrared throttle (IRIS) alone is worth checking out the system.
The IB has 2 throttles, a 3 Amp booster, a keyboard for controling turnouts and signals, feedback input, a computer interface, read/ write programming, routing capabilities, and software upgradablilty. You can plug-in old Marklin control units and keyboards and such, and make them all see in DCC! The Intellibox is the highest rated DCC system in Europe, far eclipsing Roco, Lenz, Selectrix, and Marklin. To be honest though, I think a Digitrax and a Zimo system should have been included in the evaluation. BTW, the top rated DCC software is Railroad & Co. The Europeans have been trending heavily toward complete railroad automation for quite a while now it seems, so I thought I would follow their lead and got both. I can run my railroad in several ways from hands-on to computer driven. At least, that is what will happen when all the feedback modules are wired in. I did play with a Digitrax and a Lenz System before, and found one throttle was trying to do too much, and the other wasn't. Maybe it's because I always preferred a console based system - with handhelds playing a more limited role. The IB just seemed right to me, and it's capabilities seem endless. It's all about what makes you feel good. I want to have a good feeling about every part of my new layout. Now, where did I put those Lederhosen?

[bruce22]

mrc 2000 good intro to dcc but limited looking now to upgrade

[darth9x9]

QUOTE: How so? Why does it matter? The system still works perfectly with your decoders! It still operates with NMRA compliancy! Why does it matter that I can let my neighbor run his train on my layout? Isn't that the whole goal, to have fun? Why would you care if my system can run an analog locomotive? Is that going to make you somehow angry? I don't understand why anyone would look down on a something because it has an optional feature that does not affect any other feature of it. If you don't like that particular feature, don't use the offending feature. Don't call the product bad because of it.

It is like saying that a particular car is bad because it has fold down seats. If you don't like the fold down seats, then don't use them. It is no reason not to buy the car if it has all of the other features you are looking for, and, failing that, telling others that the car is bad because of it.

Hey milesdf,

Why would I be angry because you can run a non-decoder equipped locomotive? That is an inappropriate statement for your argument. As a matter of fact, when my club evaluated the systems that we did, we noted that Digitrax did one thing that no one else did and that was run a non-decoder equipped locomotive. Initially, we thought that ability was a good thing. But we soon learned that by running a non-decoder equipped loco on the layout, you end up burning out the armature in the motor. A DCC system that destroys non-decoder equipped locos is not a good thing. Do you think the NMRA accepts such a trait as being compliant? Let’s face it, you are one of those that will live and die by Digitrax. I am not trying to persuade to convert.

[darth9x9]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cmrproducts

>> I recently converted a friend's 3000 sq ft layout from Digitrax to NCE. The wiring was simplified a tad bit with adding the boosters in the NCE system. The NCE system has proven more reliable than his Digitrax system. He was frustrated for 8 years with Digitrax and almost went back to DC. He is much happier with his NCE system.<<

Almost sounds like the layout I visited the week end of the Train Show in Maryland in June.

Nice layout but it seemed that it took 45 minutes to get the trains up and running after a NCE command station change (to an updated one????) and then all of the sound engines would stop on every turnout. And this was overheard from the operators. Then they spent 15 minutes trying to get a train out of a tunnel that ran into a dead section of track.

The owner wasn't even down in the train room as he was up stairs playing music. So I ask why the change over from Digitrax to NCE and the one operator could not give me a good reason but just kept saying that Digitrax was junk.

I know one person that would love to change over from NCE to Digitrax as he has operated on my 25 x 75 layout and can not understand how we can run 25 trains on mine and he can't on his NCE. He just keeps buying new updated command stations? He says that he has too much invested in keypads and command stations. BTW his layout is as big as mine.

And why is it so hard to find a LHS that has a NCE demo unit. But at every train show there is the Digitrax system for all to try out. I would like to try out the other brands of DCC but no one within a reasonable distance has one to use on a really big layout.

Bob H Clarion, PA

Hey Bob,

Yes, that is the layout that I converted. The jackass dealer who sold the owner the actual components, decided he wanted to swap command stations two minutes before the open house. Actually, the swap was a downgrade as the booster contained in the command station chassis wasn't being used. Unfortunately, he exercised poor judgment of when to do the swap. This is an excellent case of when you shouldn't allow the dealer/salesman to touch your layout. What he didn't realize was that all of the older decoders on the layout that couldn't handle advance consisting, their consist addresses are kept in the command station. So he lost all of the non-advanced consist addresses by swapping the command station. This would have happened no matter what system was installed on the layout. I was thoroughly ticked when I discovered he took it upon himself to swap the command stations right at the beginning of an open house. I didn’t get downstairs until 8:35pm that night just when they got trains running again.

The sound resets whenever dirty wheels and dirty track cut off the current. No one has invented a DCC system yet that ultrasonically cleans the track. He has a big problem with dirty wheels and track.

And as far as the train stuck in the tunnel....some other jackass threw a switch under the train while in the tunnel. That event had nothing to do with which system was installed. It would have happened even if he had DC.

I am sorry that you didn't come away with a better view of the layout operationally. I was worried about visitors' perceptions of trains sitting around and the dealer/salesman told us that no one would mind. He couldn't have been more wrong.

Thanks for your viewpoint!

[Anonymous]

Darth9x9:

I agree, there are just some things that cannot be changed. What were your bad expiriences with Digitrax?

Also, where is the FCSME located? Maybe I'll drop by one day.

[michealfarley]

I received and installed my NCE Powerhouse Pro system yesterday. So far, everything has been a breeze. Installation took only a few minutes, and I was up and running on my layout. I am currently operating with the cab plugged right into the unit, and I will have to install the cab fascia panels in the future.

The guide that comes with the system is easy to use and is very clear on instructions. I even installed a decoder in an Blue Box Athearn GP38-2 with little trouble once I got my bearings and everything I needed in one place.

For anyone looking to make the leap, NCE will not disappoint you! Quick and easy installation, simple menu displays, and fantastic tech support.

[jfugate]

You missed one of the major contenders: EasyDCC. If the 2004 National Train Show is any indicator, they are a major player indeed, since they had one of the larger DCC vendor booths of the entire show, placed right at the front door of the exhibition hall.

In my research, the only two systems that have comparible ease of use and feature set are NCE and EasyDCC.

Therefore, the poll is a bit skewed, since the directly equivalent system, EasyDCC, is not even mentioned as an option.

A major oversight, in my opinion.

[ClinchValleySD40]

Originally posted by jfugate

You missed one of the major contenders: EasyDCC. If the 2004 National Train Show is any indicator, they are a major player indeed, since they had one of the larger DCC vendor booths of the entire show, placed right at the front door of the exhibition hall.

In my research, the only two systems that have comparible ease of use and feature set are NCE and EasyDCC.

Therefore, the poll is a bit skewed, since the directly equivalent system, EasyDCC, is not even mentioned as an option.

A major oversight, in my opinion.

Joe,
I agree 100% with everything said. Some of the layouts in our ops group use EasyDCC and it is very very user friendly.

Larry

Larry

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