Talking to several people lately in my local hobby store they mentioned that they were trying to build their layouts and that the cost of trying to get something that looked halfway decent was starting to price them out of the hobby. They mentioned how even basic box trainsets were getting expensive and trying to create even a decent 4x8 layout for themselves or for their kids was getting harder. I am wondering if this hobby is starting to price it's self out of existence where people can't afford to get into the hobby and it will drive people away from the hobby?
What do you think?
Ray
I'm not new to the hobby by any means since I've been doing this most of my life but I finally started building my own layout. By the time you count the benchwork, track, DCC system, wire, etc my 4'x8' layout will easily approach 3 grand before buildings or scenery!
I totally agree that it's getting way too expensive. Prices alone could kill the hobby. I think it's sad that the generation just below me could easily care less about model trains in any way. They'd rather sit in front of the computer or TV 24 hours a day and play video games.
John F.Perham, MNRailfan Photography | Modeling HO Scale Trains & O Gauge Trains
Bachmann F-7's and GP's for $30 with DCC/DC dual mode decoders (found commonly online)Another $70 for track and a few cars
$30 for plywood
And you are in business for a year.
....Nope, not too expensive.
Two video games: $110. Entertainment length...maybe 2 months.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
Yes it is!
Gone are the days of reliable kits & inexpensive but durable Athearn BB locomotives.
Lots of people push RTR & other expensive items in my opinion people simply do not need to get started in model railroading.
Just my 2 cents
Gordon
Brought to you by the letters C.P.R. as well as D&H!
K1a - all the way
I personally tend to believe higher prices will force younger modelers (those younger than 18 or so) without a high-income job out of the hobby until an older age... There's certainly no shortage of inexpensive railroad simulator games available to keep these younger fans entertained...
I understand there's been a push towards having highly-detailed, sound-equipped models that come fresh from the factory with all of the details you'd ever want to install, but personally, if I had the choice between paying $250-$300 for a locomotive that already comes equipped with all the details, or paying, say, $50-$100 for a locomotive completely devoid of any detailing, and I'd have to spend time applying custom details myself, I'd do the latter; not only because it's cheaper but also because (to me) it sounds much more enjoyable, and would prove to be a good learning experience... I think many people on here will agree that assembling a kit from scratch, custom-detailing a locomotive, or even kitbashing one yourself provides a good sense of accomplishment, and that seems to be slowly disappearing, since we can have it done at the factory instead for a little bit of extra cash...
It's the same story with freight cars... I can pay $40 for some highly detailed fancy ready-to-run car, or pay about $15 for an equally-nice (in my opinion) Accurail kit... Yes, it's nice that the model makers are finally producing incredibly accurate, smooth-running, and fairly reliable models, but we're all paying the price for it... Quite literally...
My little 4x10' HO layout may be small, and I may not have enough money to make it a masterpiece, but that doesn't make me any less of a modeler!
Well ... there is more good track available to beginners now than when I started. More good scenery products. Some interesting structure kits, and many of the old reliables from Like Like. Beginners are no longer saddled with just horn hook couplers in HO but might actually get to start with Kadee or Kadee compatible couplers. The deals are out there -- Blue Box at swap meets galore, for example -- but you have to know so much about the hobby to take advantage of the deals that, yeah, maybe beginners are left out.
I think it is a mixed bag. I would agree it is harder and more expensive to be a mere dabbler in the hobby. And if it takes 10 dabblers to create 6 interested, and 10 interested to create one real hobbyist ... we have some work to do
Dave Nelson
Model railroading is a lifetime hobby. "Instant-gratification" in model railroading spans most of your lifetime to come, and; it is never all-at-once as our media-rich culture might suggest to us daily.
Thus, it takes time to accumulate the layout from start to finish (or is it never quite finished). If you take the long-term visioning -- the material costs of your model railroading hobby is spread out over many years -- and our instant-gratification occurs everyday instead of just once. Do what you can as you can.
Conemaugh Road & Traction circa 1956
I am up around $7000.00 on trains since getting back into it in 2007. That is about $1750.00 a year. I use to fly R/C airplanes and would spend much more than that on transportation to and from the club airfield alone. I think trains is a lower cost hobby than most.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
tgindy Model railroading is a lifetime hobby. "Instant-gratification" in model railroading spans most of your lifetime to come, and; it is never all-at-once as our media-rich culture might suggest to us daily. Thus, it takes time to accumulate the layout from start to finish (or is it never quite finished). If you take the long-term visioning -- the material costs of your model railroading hobby is spread out over many years -- and our instant-gratification occurs everyday instead of just once. Do what you can as you can.
You must be part of the older generation, like I am, and your "instant-gratification" mode that you mention is indicative of younger people. I've been working on my current layout for almost 10 years, and I've gotten a lot done on it. When we wanted something, we SAVED for it. That included cars, houses, slot cars or model trains. We didn't expect ANYTHING NOW!
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
The hobby has been trending that way for a number of years now. And not only is it driving off the newcomers, I known of many longtime hobbyists who have thrown in the towel too with regard to purchasing anything further new unless it is absolutely essential to keep their layouts operating. Long gone are the days when a hobbyist strolled into a hobby shop and bought stuff simply on a whim (once a traditional part of the hobby!).
I certainly don't envy anyone coming into the hobby today who isn't wealthy, because if they aren't, they are in for a considerable disappointment. JFR posts that he's approaching $3k with his 4x8 and has yet to get anywhere with his scenery and structures. Well, I can attest to the fact that a 4x8 of any real quality runs $5k to $7k these days and stepping up to a 5x10 will easily push you well past $10k.
Yes, you can still purchase a small selection of cheap junk; folks did that with Tyco back in the day. But that resulted in a great many of them becoming disillusioned and leaving the hobby for good. That might have been a situation the hobby could endure in days of yore, when hobbyists numbers were large and still growing, but that's no longer the case. And after seeing the layouts in the magazines, running the cheapest junk on a bare plywood pacific clearly isn't what model railroading is supposed to be in any sense at all.
Of course, as I've indicated in the past, prices aren't nearly as high yet as they are going to get...and in the relatively near future, too. As the market shrinks, prices will rise, causing the market to shrink and so on. Model railroading's future is with a small segment of wealthy individuals, not the blue collar element that drove it for three quarters of a century.
CNJ831
I think it depends on several things. If you just want to run some trains and not too worried about things like roadname, prototype accuracy, DC operations and basic scenery, one can build a pretty good layout for relatively little money. Remember, one has to look at the beginner as many of us began, train sets for Christmas and some extra cars that the relatives bought for birthdays cause they know you liked trains. When we first started out, most of us didn't know a 2-8-2 from GP40. All we saw was a train with cars and we wanted to expand the track and buy more cars, especially if they were "cool". As we grew more knowledgeable, we started getting selective (Athearn yes!, Tyco no!) and maybe started concentrating on modeling a specific railroad, after all, not all that many of us had the Santa Fe warbonnet F units screaming past our houses.
If a begginer goes to a typcial model train show, they could walk out with a pretty decent selection of rolling stock and a locomotive from the usually large selection of used stuff. 40-50 dollars can get quite a few BB cars, most with Kadees and metal wheels. Another 50 could get a pretty decent running and reliable locomotive. Track and transformer could be found too, but even a simple loop with a switch can be purchased new for under 50 for track and another 50-80 for a transformer.
Horsetrading with other modelers can net even more as many of us have track and rolling stock we know we'll never use again.
Wood for a layout could be less than 100 for a 4X8.
Bottom line, if you don't need top of the line everything and basement empire right away, you can enjoy this hobby on a budget.
Ricky
Depends on the 'beginner'. If he is flush with cash, not at all. If he doesn't have the cash, yes, it is too expensive. As an example of my logic, an RV is too costly for me, and I rightfully decline to try to change that. They cost what they do, and they should somehow keep their manufacturers in business, with some adjustments to production and prices now and then as seems right to do.
None of us can have everything. If you can buy it all, you are left unhappy because you have nothing left to buy.
I think the hobby is priced just right. When I decide that its acceptable fit with my budget is incongruous, I move on.
Crandell
Snip
CNJ831 I certainly don't envy anyone coming into the hobby today who isn't wealthy, because if they aren't, they are in for a considerable disappointment. JFR posts that he's approaching $3k with his 4x8 and has yet to get anywhere with his scenery and structures. Well, I can attest to the fact that a 4x8 of any real quality runs $5k to $7k these days and stepping up to a 5x10 will easily push you well past $10k. CNJ831
I don't doubt that JFR has $3K in model railroad stuff, but how much is really invested in the 4X8? If he has ten $200 locos, how many can be run on the 4X8 at one time? Average cost for structures may be about $50 but how many can go on a 4X8, 10-15? Again, I'm not discounting what he has spent, but how much is really just for the 4X8 how much is extra for the next layout?
I've been building a Christmas layout almost every year for the last 13 years. Most of them would cost 1000-1500 and they are fully scenicked.
I have to agree it is becoming expensive. I modeled european trains (mostly ROCO) for over 15 years. The prices skyrocketed to the point about five years ago I decided to dropout and switch to US trains. In the last year or two, I am seeing the same type of price increases (although not yet close to the ROCO prices) which I am afraid will eventually drive me completely out of the hobby for good.
I am a lifelong table top roleplayer. Rulebooks and supplements for that hobby usually start at $20 and go up to $60 each. Many games can have a couple dozen of these. I also dabble in trading card games. These usually start at $20 for 50 cards and then $5 for 8-10 card booster packs. Since the cards are random, you end up buying many packs to get the cards you want. And generally a new set comes out every 6 months or so.
My point is that younger people are conditioned to pay a lot of money for their hobby. A post above mentioned video games, he didn't point out the cost of the game system itself which go for $250-$600, and that isn't adding in headsets and fancy controllers, etc etc etc.
Any hobby can cost as little or as much as you are willing to invest. If you have few financial resources you learn to be creative.
Yes and no. Yes that current equipment, locomotives, etc are priced well beyond what many of them would have cost on inflation alone due to the extras (RTR, DCC, etc) they come with. Alternatives aren't readily available now days due to the limited run mentality of the manufacturers -- better buy now at an inflated price or you won't get it. While locomotives and such are available if you spend the time looking, it's not readily available at the local hobby shop to pick up and buy on the spot; you have to search the web.
The other part of this comes in large part from the magazines. I know this is a hot button, but we are constantly presented with a bevy of large, expensive, layouts in the press. This will just discourage the newcomer. Same with all the "you must do it this way or you aren't a real model railroader" style of writings out there. If I had seen what I see today back years ago, I would have been locked out too, only I didn't know I wasn't good enough.
And, scratchbuilding has become a lost art. Structures you can build for a few bucks with balsa and paper have been replaced with RTR structures that cost ten times as much and only produce a few seconds of modeling pleasure. Again, I think the press could help by including more on simple, economical projects.
RedGrey62 Snip CNJ831: I certainly don't envy anyone coming into the hobby today who isn't wealthy, because if they aren't, they are in for a considerable disappointment. JFR posts that he's approaching $3k with his 4x8 and has yet to get anywhere with his scenery and structures. Well, I can attest to the fact that a 4x8 of any real quality runs $5k to $7k these days and stepping up to a 5x10 will easily push you well past $10k. CNJ831 I don't doubt that JFR has $3K in model railroad stuff, but how much is really invested in the 4X8? If he has ten $200 locos, how many can be run on the 4X8 at one time? Average cost for structures may be about $50 but how many can go on a 4X8, 10-15? Again, I'm not discounting what he has spent, but how much is really just for the 4X8 how much is extra for the next layout? I've been building a Christmas layout almost every year for the last 13 years. Most of them would cost 1000-1500 and they are fully scenicked. Ricky
CNJ831: I certainly don't envy anyone coming into the hobby today who isn't wealthy, because if they aren't, they are in for a considerable disappointment. JFR posts that he's approaching $3k with his 4x8 and has yet to get anywhere with his scenery and structures. Well, I can attest to the fact that a 4x8 of any real quality runs $5k to $7k these days and stepping up to a 5x10 will easily push you well past $10k. CNJ831
JFR=JRF
My estimate was not counting locomotives or rolling stock. If we count that well I probaby wouldn't want to know what I've spent, especially within the last 5-7 years...
What I have is a sheet of plywood with beautiful oak trim and then underneath the table to hide the wires and to provide additional support for the plywood is more oak in a rectangular type shape. Then I have a Digitrax system for my DCC needs. The legs are metal and fold under the table if and when I would be required to transport it. I've also got storage under the table for storing locos and rolling stock. Sure I could have picked up a piece of plywood and nailed some legs to it in crude fashion and got by a lot cheaper but I wanted it to look neat and last for many years. The way it's being setup I can operate 1 "through" train and one local type train. Maybe just maybe I could run a third unit to switch industry but that may get dicey... It's been a work in progress and I sure haven't picked everything up right away nor do I recommend anyone do that unless money isn't an issue.
I also have a Free-Mo module which is 26" x 6' that has been a work in progress for the past 4 years. With all the electronics and scenery I've picked up for it and the bench work it's easily approaching a thousand dollars and it's still not done!
One thing I did not add in my original post is that I believe the internet has been great for the hobby. It allows the hobbyist to virtually shop around for the better deal and to hunt for specific items they are looking for. I do agree that the RTR aspect of the hobby is getting expensive too but boy oh boy are things looking nice!
I couldn't agree more! Even DC locomotives from Walthers are way to expensive for me. After all teens have to worry about college and car insurance which is getting more costly ever year. And for hobbies, we like to while our time with expensive game systems. The inexpensive stuff from Bachmann isn't getting as much attention as I think it should. Who can beat $80 for DCC equipped locomotive?
Just my cut of cars,
The Lone Geep
Lone Geep
\
I guess it must still be a radical concept that if you want something bad enough you will save for it...
I know of two kids who have spent their winter doing snow shoveling so they could get model train parts and things....
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
When I was a kid, Atlas/Kato and even Athearn BB were more premium products compared to Tyco, AHM, etc. Brass track was the norm an nickel silver was the premium stuff.
I think the hobby has moved upscale. its probably due to the lack of sales of the lower end product. The baby boomers are aging and have more disposable income to spend on better products, and younger entries into the hobby are not as numerous. Supply and demand dictates the lower end product has been pretty much eliminated. Even the Athearn BB, which was more of a premium product back in the 70's.
Fortunately, today there are better outlets for buying used products or estate items than in the past. If you are price conscious, its going to take some unconventional searching and time to find things. Going to a hobby shop or even an internet shop and buying your complete layout over a six month period is the expensive way to do it.
- Douglas
Here's the thing..Basic model railroading isn't that much expensive then it was years ago where it gets expensive is when the unnecessary items is added like sound,DCC,high end locomotives and cars.
There is still lots of BB kits out there and then there's Accurail.There's e-Bay and on line shops with decent discounts.I seen RTR cars for $9.99 and Athearn RTR as low as $39.95.
During the fair I am often ask how expensive is the hobby? My standard answer is "its as expensive as you what to make it." You can buy a some cars a locomotive or two and join the club.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Starter Lifelike kit (engine, caboose, power pak, track, 2, 3 cars) $50
OR
Bachmann F-Unit or GP $30->$35 (This is a very good buy for the money! Reliable and runs on DCC)
Atlas trainman caboose and cars $10->$15
Accurail Kits $15
P2K Timesaver Gonds $8
Why can't you create a quality layout from the above selections?
Prices are even down from 30 years ago. TYCO Golden Eagle set about was about $45.
Sure quality plastic has shot through the roof in recent years. But the entry level is still VERY affordable. And todays plastic runs better and sometimes has the detail of brass from 20+ years ago.
What more do you guys want? Seriously?!? Quality is up. Prices are down.
What I see happening is that the HO economy lines of the past are disappearing. Model Die Casting and Athearn were two of the economy main stays but are now RTR only at a higher price. AHM, TYCO, IHC, etc. are gone (I started with Tyco in 1971 and still have fond memories of it). Many freight cars in HO are in the $30-40 range (some are more). Couple this with wage stagnation/decline for the bottom 80-90% of the population and there is a real possibility that the hobby will seriously decline.
For now there are still ways to enjoy the hobby without spending thousands of dollars on a 4x8 layout. But are people willing to accept having a layout that looks like those found in MR in the 70's? I remember one that had track nailed to plywood - no roadbed or ballast. And yes you can find kits on the secondary market at lower prices (I just bought an MDC oldtimer stockcar kit for $8 in an antique store), but how long will that last?
Frankly I'm glad I bought ahead before I retired. I have plenty to keep me going for years and just need to fill in here and there occasionally.
Paul
We can say what we want about the cost of the Hobby but I bet that if one knew those that can't afford to build a layout have a 4 wheeler - a boat and a couple of motor cycles!
It all comes down to what do you want to do - Play Trains or play with all that other junk!
If you want to spend money - try going the CAR SHOW route or restoring old CUB CADET Tractors.
BOB H
jrf JFR=JRF
My apologies on the initials.
Did I meet you at the NTS in Milwaukee as I had a module in the large Free-mo setup?
This subject comes up frequently.
Some will point out it is cheaper hobby than, say owning a boat, RV or Piper Cub airplane as a hobby. Or golf, or even scrapbooking-some spend hundreds on that hobby for scraps of fancy papers and "embellishments" for a book of photos or mementos.
There are times I am shocked at what they want for this or that in this hobby, on my meager budget, but I make do with what I can afford, when I can afford it.
Sure, I have spent probably a god grand or two on my 3.5 foot x 5.1 foot HO DCC pike and the under the tree layout as well.
But I buy what I can, don''t over-extend my budget and am happy with my Bachmann DCC On Board locos...all 12 of them..the most expensive of which was a buck and a quarter. Most around the $40-50 mark. I bought track as I could and 5 years ago I think it was cheaper than it seems to be now.
I buy other stuff on sale, clearance, closeout, or cheaply at the hobby/crafts stores with their 40 or 50% off Sunday paper coupons, one item a week with each weekly coupon.
carefull planning and buying can reduce the cost of any hobby. I don't see myself spending $300-500 for an MTH loco.
I also dont see myself buying a $125,000 RV as Crandell mentioned either. Even a $3000 pop-up tent trailer and all the equipment to go with it for camping properly is too much for me, but I don't go camping anyway.
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
While I have read all of the comments, I have begun to agree and disagree with some of the posts. I have only seriously been in the hobby for about 4 years now, but I have begun to form an opinion in regards to the price increases.
First of all, the economy and the weak value of the dollar is one factor. With everything made in China and imported hear, products are going to cost more.
Second, it all about choice. Hobbyists have choices when it comes to digging into their wallets. When I was a kid, I started out with a Life-Like set and gradually grew from there. I had one powered loco and six cars. Over time my parents and relative began to give me more cars and two more locos. I also had some cheap structures. About five years ago, I started to get more detailed locos and rolling stock because my income grew (until recently), and I found out I was enjoying the hobby a lot more.
We all have choices.
Will
I have been in the hobby since the mid 70's when my dad bought me my first train set, AHM with the C-Liner ATSF engine. ( I still have the original train set minus the track and transformer ), I bought few cars at a time from the local hobby shops back in the day, mostly Athearn BB and roundhouse with some accurail mixed in. Then after I join the service I bought brass equipment when I was stationed in Korea since it was cheap to buy it there and having plenty of boring time off duty on base I could either get drunk or work on my trains I bought. I kept collecting equipment over the years and stored the equipment until I was "retired" by the military. I have spent over 10k in benchwork, trackage, and basic scenery cover ( haven't finished the mountains or 80% of the scenery shell yet ) I have spent about $700 in materials to make trees for the layout. I am in a position where I don't have to spend alot of money at this point to get my layout completed. But when I was talking to some of the people who are trying to get started their biggest issue is finding affordable equipment. There are not many train shows near where we are so you have to drive anywhere from 3-5 hours to get to one and the problem one person mentioned to me was trying to buy on ebay was you can find the cheap equipment but the shipping cost many times were as much if not more than what the item cost. They see the layouts in the magazines and it catches their imagination but the reality crashed down on them when they have a beer wallet and it's Johnny Walker price tag. Sadly I am part of the one of the last generations that learned to earn it and not have it given to you or couldn't wait or have the patience to build it rather than RTR. But I can see how this hobby is getting very expensive to break into if you want to build a decent layout. It's one of those situations where you can save .10 cents now and end up spending $10.00 later to fix the problem or upgrade the layout later when you can afford it. Perhaps we can get MR to run some articles on budget layouts some 4x8 and maybe even a "L" shaped layout to show newcomers how to build a nice layout without spending a ton of money, even go so far as to show the readers how to do some old-school scenery tricks that don't cost alot of money to make.
jrf I'm John and I like trains
I'm John and I like trains
There you go, admitting it is the first step...
(BTW, welcome to the forum!)
John
jwhitten jrf: I'm John and I like trains There you go, admitting it is the first step... (BTW, welcome to the forum!) John
jrf: I'm John and I like trains
It is the first step. Not sure if it's going to work though because I'm amongst others who have the same "problem".
And thanks for the welcome! People here have been very friendly and helpful so far when I've had questions.