While on another thread, I noticed a definite dislike of 4x8 layouts. I've also been reading about dislike of them in other publications.
Mind you, if I had the space for it, I would consider a shelf type layout. I just don't think that we should do away with the 4x8 either. I feel that there are uses for 4x8s as well as shelf switchers.
__________________________________________________________________
Mike Kieran
Port Able Railway
I just do what the majority of the voices in my head vote on.
Exactly my point.
Sure there is some need for the 4X8, but it is in no way a good use of space.
Neither is it good to have a 4x8 as you are bound to 18" curves.
I started with a 4x8 and is SOOOO happy to have gotten rid of that space eating monster.....
If you are hard pressed for space, don´t build a 4x8, build a shelf!
A 4x8 takes an area of roughly 8x10, at the very least.
In that area you can have so much more interesting trackplans, just look at what Iain Rice makes!
Swedish Custom painter and model maker. My Website:
My Railroad
My Youtube:
Graff´s channel
Mike,
You are right. There has been and is a lot of dislike/derision of the 4x8 HO layout over the years. It continues to this day, but with less vehemence than in the past.
In my case, the layout started as a 4x4 and grew to its present 4x10 feet as the space became available. I too would like to have a larger around the walls layout, but I fear that is not in the cards any time soon.
From my point of view a 4x8 or 4x10 layout is better than no layout at all. If I fold my tent and wait for a larger layout/space, I would have three disappointed model railroaders. My two grandsons and myself.
Remember its your railroad
Allan
Track to the BRVRR Website: http://www.brvrr.com/
Mike,As I said before and I will say it one more time there is nothing wrong with a 4x8 footer.
In fact I would build this layout if I had the space.
http://www.gatewaynmra.org/layouts/gc02/gcrr2.jpg
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I would not go that far to state there is an animosity towards the 4 by 8 layout. There are some major drawbacks to it that need to be considered:
Just because 4 by 8 is a standard size for sheets of plywood does not make it a good size for a layout.
There is nothing "wrong" in building a 4 by 8 layout. They can be nicely done and very rewarding to build - just take a look at Rick Van Laar´s layout featured in the Feb. 2011 issue of MR. But why not to attempt to make something good even better by choosing a different footprint?
As others have noted, the 4x8 isn't the most space effiecient, nor as conducive to hard core switching as a shelf layout. And, as has also been remarked on, good 4x8's do exist and will continue to be designed. I think the strong bias against them is just one of many biases that exist. Most folk have VERY defined ideas about what constitues a "proper" model railroad and what's legit or not in our little world. Lip service is paid to "it's your layout, do what you like", but secretly (or publicly) we have our favored ways.
Besides, I hold that the 4x8 is kind of like a chair. Everyone knows what a chair looks like, but just for kicks try to design one that looks good and is comfy (and is easy to build, ship, cheap to produce and so on). You'll get a lesson in how hard it can be, and in my case, a reason to admire the Italians for their designs.
Even the hard core guys have to design a 4x8 now and then for a client with money burning a hole in his or her pocket. I also like John Armstrong's idea about cutting the 4x8 sheet up and making the 4x10 boat with pointed ends.
Lou
There is nothing wrong with a 4x8. It was my first layout I started building in my garage. Unfortunatly the economy came along and sucked all the wind out of my sails and I had to move. I didnt have the space for it so out to the curb it went(luckily someone knocked on the door asking if they could have it, i said yes of course so it wouldnt go to the dum). After that I am strictly a shelf layout guy now. I started with 2 corner sections things got better and we moved again(Who loves the economy). I didnt have a corner where I am at now so it is sitting SAFELY in my closet. I do however have a nice 8ft section on one wall that I am currently building the Timesaver+ and it is working out to incorporate into a bigger layout as soon as i get my basement. The point is that 95% of us start with a 4x8, yes you are constrained to 18in radii if you make it go round and round. But there is a 4x8 steel mill in one of the issues of model railroad planning that looks amazing. You build what you have space for and enjoy the relaxing fun that is model railroading.
Haha! Who cares what size your layout is. I sure don't. I have recently started building a 4x8 where I work because there is no room for anything in the RV that I live in. I think 4x8 is the perfect size to begin with and add to it if you can as you go along. I'm using 22" radius on this layout all around the edge and 18R inside and it will have plenty of action for me. A 4x8 is easy because a sheet of plywood IS 4x8. just add a frame and some legs and whalla,you have a nice train table.
I don't think anyone has any right to criricize anyone else because of the size of their layout. Just build what you can and have fun with it. I am thrilled to death to have this little train table at work and I'm having a ball with it.
Pete McGill,Bonita Springs,Fl.
N.A.Pete McGill
On time is when I get there.
I;ll have to say that it really surprises me that 4 X 8's are looked down upon.
In fact 4 X 8's are more challenging to model as they are usually walk arounds and you have to scenic them from all angles unless you use a divider. No back ground buildings here or unfinished buildings either.
For a lot of modlers it is their best and only choice. Not only that many would rather have a 4 X 8 than a shelf.
Are the 4 X 8 modlers to be drummed out of model railroading.?
Happy Railroading
Bob
Don't Ever Give Up
superbe Are the 4 X 8 modlers to be drummed out of model railroading.?
Come on, Bob!
Nobody looks down on a model railroader with a 4 by 8. But there is also no reason to withhold the arguments against a 4 by 8, when asked.
Graffen Neither is it good to have a 4x8 as you are bound to 18" curves.
Graffen,
Although it does push it fairly close to the edge, you can squeeze R22" curves (with a 2" buffer) onto a 4 x 8" layout. It looks much better, too.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Please bear with me. I'm going to put up a point of view that I posted on another thread, 4x8 Layout advice:
I do have one reason for a 4x8 (or in my case a 4x6) over a shelf layout. If I had a finished basement or dining area, I would be able to run my trains on the layout and then later on, stand it on end (or side) and put it against the wall (or any other out of the way location) for other uses.
People don't always have the space (or spouse/roommate) to dedicate ONLY for model railroading.
I’m going to try to not make this thread about me and my layout. I’m only going to discuss the concept of my layout and its portability (Port Able). I plan to start building it after Easter as time frees up.
The design is not groundbreaking. It’s a 45 inch by 63 inch loop with 3 trailing point turnouts. It will break into 3 sections measuring 45 inches by 21 inches. I plan to store the 3 sections on a shelf above a doorway and assemble them together when it’s time to play with my trains. I also wanted to be able to take it to train shows while fitting it in the back seat of a mid size sedan (48 inches of space). I was originally going to make it 2 sections that were 28 inches by 45 inches and have the layout attached by hinges to make it a 56 inch by 45 inch layout.
The concept is that it’s a shortline that took over a shortened branch line that has no passing sidings. The interchange is located near the engine house. The engine picks up the train and pulls it engine first to the two online customers – a manufacturing company and a building supply (cement hoppers). After switching the customers, the engine will push the train caboose first back to the interchange.
I mentioned that this can be done with a 4x8 or a 4x6 layout because the layout doesn’t have to be bolted to the floor. If you build the layout on lightweight framework and foam core, the layout can be built 6 inches thick and light enough so that you can pick it up and place it somewhere else on its end or on its side.
My premise is that a 4x8 layout can be useful if it shares space with other household necessities (eating, sleeping, etc). It can rest on a dining room table, straddle a bed (Don Mitchell’s Oakdale Central), or along a hallway. Our layouts are only limited by our imaginations.
Many modelers are finding themselves constantly moving, lacking space, or don't have loads of time to spend on a layout. Model Railroader has been presenting articles and features on modular and 4x8 layouts recently for a reason. Carl Arendt had a popular website devoted to micro layouts for a reason.
I have been seeing a lot of posts regarding such lately on a lot of railroad forums. One must realize that views have different sides that must be presented. That's why there are forums and on a more serious scale, court systems. From there, the person making the decision must weigh the pros and cons before coming to a conclusion. I've found that I come to better decisions if I listen to conflicting views before I listen to views that support my original opinion. If you don't like the post, then bypass it and move on.
I myself would prefer an around the walls layout. For one thing, you can use background flats against the wall to suggest larger industries. Sharp curves don't appear as sharp from the inside of a curve.
There is a good argument against 4x8 layouts if they are permanently affixed to their space. There must be adequate space surrounding the 4x8 layout. The point that I was making is if a layout is mobile and can fold against a wall,
I feel that Model Railroader is presenting 4x8 foot layouts because they are simpler to set up, easier to envision, and affordable for those entering the hobby. Over the years, Model Railroader has taken polls, and it seems that modelers are more likely to build the Beer Line than the Franklin and South Manchester (which started out as a 4x8 layout) or the Gorre and Daphetid (which started out as a 4x6).
The bottom line is each layout design has its faults and merits. Some people want a continuous run because when someone comes over, the visitor could care less about seeing the engine shunting back and forth. Some people go with a loop because they want the continuous run in order to break in locomotives. Others go with the loop because they just want to see the trains run while they sit down and veg out.
A loop can also have the curves double as switch leads, interchange tracks, and running tracks. A 4x8 can be stored against a wall either as is or placed on a side or end to allow mixed use in the room. The footprint of the layout depends on the Givens & Druthers of the layout’s builder.
The problems with a 4x8 loop are that you are limited as to what kind of locomotives and rolling stock that you could use, you are limited in the size of the industrial customers on the layout, and it’s a space eater because you need at least 2 feet of space around each side (unless one end is against a wall).
With a shelf layout, you can build a layout anywhere between 9 inches deep to 30 inches deep. You only need about 3 feet of space in the middle. In theory, you can build a shelf layout inside of a 4x8 foot space. Industries can be enormous because you are only modeling the area served by the railroad and the structure isn’t viewed from a 360o perspective. Curves don’t look as sharp from the inside as from the outside. Curves can be wider, thus lowering restrictions on rolling stock.
On shelf layouts, getting in often requires a duckunder or a removable section of track if you want a continuous run option. If it’s a shelf switcher layout, you need to have a switch lead (and runaround) length long enough for a locomotive and 2 cars to appear somewhat prototypical. For 40 foot cars, that’s 18 inches, for 50 foot cars, that’s a minimum of 22 inches. Shelf layouts must also blend in with the room’s decor if it’s for mixed use (unless it’s a portable, modular layout).
My layout is a simple loop. I don’t have wall space for a shelf layout (which l would prefer). It’s going to sit on my dining room table when in use. While it’s only going to measure 61 inches by 45 inches, between track, structures, lumber, scenery, rolling stock, locomotives, and track power, it will cost around $500 when it’s finished. A larger layout costs a lot more than that. It will come apart with removable structures. Rolling stock will be stored. Not my dream layout, but it's a necessary compromise.
As much as 10 years ago, layouts were simpler and cheaper, now it takes a lot more financial assets to build a decent pike. Even with deep pockets, one has to consider the time needed to build, operate, and maintain these layouts. I've gone to well detailed layouts with a layer of dust on them because maintenance is time consuming.
In this ever increasingly mobile society, people are often finding that they are moving more often than they have in previous generations. A 4x8 is easier to transport and set down in a new space than a shelf layout.
I agree with Steinjr’s post in the 4x8 Layout Advice thread. 4 2x4 sections would be even better. After they are taken apart, they can be stored on shelves and out of the way. I'll even build upon your thought, if I may.
In one of the Model Railroader Planning issues, Linda sand had a design for a 4x8 (patience people, patience) that was cut down the middle. This gives the layout owner options.
You can run it as a conventional 4x8, you can run it in an L configuration, or you can run them end to end in a 16x2 foot configuration. The Beer Line built upon than idea by using smaller modules that could also be configured in a g, f, or a t pattern as well as the above mentioned configurations.
The only problem I have with a backdrop down the middle is visually, it can be distracting. Art Curren’s idea would be more appealing because your buildings along the center line are double sided, so they appear to be 2 different buildings. Don Mitchell did something like this with the Union Terminal plan, but with staging included.
I am a big proponent of the domino layout because you can always take it with you. Some people have a problem with sectional layouts because they don't want to put turnouts over a seam on the modules or just the sight of seams on the layout. That's the reason why people keep the 4x8 whole. I actually knew someone that put their 4x7 not only stacked up on its end, but behind a bookcase. He had a wide doorway next to the bookcase and slid it behind. He had felt on the end to make it slide
Yes, I did start with a 4 x 8 and over the years have had other designs, including a shelf layout. I am now retired, moved to a home with a basement and while I now have the space for a large layout, retirement funds don't allow for a lot of discretionary spending. So, I have reverted to my childhood so to speak and am in the process of building a 4 x 8 layout that I found on-line that is a modification of John Allen's original Gorre and Daphetid.
This layout has a logging theme, fits my skill and resource level and allows me an opportunity for scratch building wooden structures, trees, trestles, rolling stock, etc. that I find very enjoyable. My model railroading interests are scratch building, running trains, with the operational aspect of our interesting hobby a distant third.
I understand and agree with the footprint issues mentioned above; however, the 4 x 8 that I'm building just happens to meet my needs and skill level at this point in time.
Wayne
Modeling HO Freelance Logging Railroad.
I'm sorry. I meant a compilation.
tstage Graffen: Neither is it good to have a 4x8 as you are bound to 18" curves. Graffen, Although it does push it fairly close to the edge, you can squeeze R22" curves (with a 2" buffer) onto a 4 x 8" layout. It looks much better, too. Tom
Graffen: Neither is it good to have a 4x8 as you are bound to 18" curves.
Yes, but then there isn´t much room for anything else
I know that the 4x8´s you see in the mag´s are often made with a mix of 22" and 18" curves, but it is nevertheless the smallest radii that defines what equipment you can run on it.....
I know of one who built a layout where he used curve in the 22" to 30" span, but he had a tigt spot where he decided to use a 18" curve.... Does he regret that? You bet!
IIRC, John Allen's original Gorre & Daphetid was a 4x8 (or possibly 4x6) layout and instead of discarding it as he expanded into his entire basement, he just added onto it, keeping the original layout as a mining branch.
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Time marcheth on. People live in larger homes now, generally. You should see the expanded home my Dad grew up in in the mining town in northern Ontario. His dad, a carpenter at one of the local gold mines, lifted the roof in 1930 or so and added a whole top floor. Still only had maybe 900 square feet. Many apartments are that size today.
So, while 4X8's were common many years ago, I think the hobbyist tries to encourage a newcomer to work out something from the area of a 4X8 and make something a little more like what we see when walking along the real-world tracks. To me, that is really the issue, or at least one of them. The tight radius is also a bit of a bite on reality, along with the reality of trying to move around a sheet of plywood and not bang one's head on an angled roof or basement joists....or worse, crawlspace joists. A 4X8 knocks the heck out of a single car garage.
It may read as animosity, and I am sure those who conclude they have little practical choice but to work with a sheet of plywood feel that their circumstances and choices are disdained when they read opinions posted here that are contrary to their use. I would like to blow some smoke and say it isn't personal, but for both parties discussing the matter, it darned well IS personal. Everything about the hobby is a personal decision, and we naturally invest a lot of emotion in it. It is worse when the self-doubt, or the realization comes, that the 4X8 may not have been the best choice...if it comes. Then we have to talk to others who share our waking hours, and discretionary dollars, and admit that we, uh, may have been a bit hasty.
It should suffice to say that quite a few of us have moved beyond the 4X8 the same way many of us have moved to larger homes, and for the same reasons. I would hope there could be some encouragement for everyone to try to consider the intended message, however unartfully it may be tendered. I don't think anyone intends to hurt anyone with his words.
Crandell
You are hitting the nail on its head, Crandell!
Tom,
Here is the track plan that I refer to as the original Gorre and Daphetid, which served as template/guide for the layout I'm currently building.
sfcouple Yes, I did start with a 4 x 8 and over the years have had other designs, including a shelf layout. I am now retired, moved to a home with a basement and while I now have the space for a large layout, retirement funds don't allow for a lot of discretionary spending. So, I have reverted to my childhood so to speak and am in the process of building a 4 x 8 layout that I found on-line that is a modification of John Allen's original Gorre and Daphetid. This layout has a logging theme, fits my skill and resource level and allows me an opportunity for scratch building wooden structures, trees, trestles, rolling stock, etc. that I find very enjoyable. My model railroading interests are scratch building, running trains, with the operational aspect of our interesting hobby a distant third. I understand and agree with the footprint issues mentioned above; however, the 4 x 8 that I'm building just happens to meet my needs and skill level at this point in time. Wayne
I agree, people should move forward at a pace that's comfortable for them. I also agree that funds can be a limiting factor. A 4x8 layout can run around $1000 for lumber, track, power, rolling stock, scenery, and structures. While a shelf layout can be built just as frugally, if not cheaper, the physical parameters of a 4x8 can prevent us (thankfully) from the proverbial 10 gallons of water into a 5 gallon bucket.
I like your comment. Room is the big issue with building a layout, however, being new to the hobby myself I started with my first layout as a switching layout (which I like) for experience and learning. It is only 1x6 and sits on top of a dresser.
My next layout will be based on the MR 4x8 cover layout, CSX (Appalachian on a 4x8). I am moving to this as my next level of education and experience in the hobby. I like that the layout has all the elements of scenery, grades, back drop, tunnels, water features, country and city. I will just change the main industries from coal to cement/concrete. I am excited about it.
After that I will build an 11'x12' around the wall layout with staging on the lower shelf. I have the room but I love the stepped approach and I have yet to learn CadRail to draw up the final track plan for the larger empire and I am working on developing a name for my proto-freelanced road.
-Ron
AlcoRS-3
I use the old time philosophy that if I'm having fun with my hobby then I must be doing something right. If we all had the same tastes life would be pretty boring. I love hearing about different ideas and try not to take things too personally, it is just all part of the never ending learning experience.
Just think. If the standard plywood size had been 36-by-72 inches, the standard minimum radius would be 14/16 inches rather than 18. Modeling can get so arbitrary. Maybe TT scale would have become dominant instead of HO.
Seeing as how now all I can afford space wise is to have a 3.5 foot x 5.1 foot HO layout, with definite NIX on a shelf-style in that room, I'd be tickled with a 4x8!!!! I WS going to try to push limits and expand that loittle pike a bit in both directions, but read on:
I am now in a position to move from a trailer home to a Model Railroading space with a house over it!!!
I will CELEBRATE having a basement with enough space to build a 4 x 8 set within a {same level} 2x4 frame, which will give me enough room I think to utilize a 24R" outer oval and a 22R" inner oval, which will be far less disappointing curve wise. The overhange will be allowed over the 2x4 frame, and will of course have a clear plexiglass border edging to keep any derailments form hitting the floor.
My Other Half, also into trains will want a 4x 8 or less to build an Nscale layout on. SUrely a basement can handle two 4x8s, or the house isn't worth a darn!
I don't mind two ovals for round and round use, as I like to watch them go around and around for awhile...
Besides should I get grander ideas, I can always use the practice of building the 4x8.
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
Each type of layout has it's own arguable good and bad points to which there is no denying either. Or is it iether. That being said, what ever works for you the best, for whatever reason, IS the best.
Some will argue a shelf or around the whatever is the best for switching, well that's nice if you are into switching. Some say many things for other than a block of flat top. Some like scenery, some like switching, some just want to see a train roll around the tracks and each style, if thought out can hold a very nice layou. To each there own and as long as their choice does not force me to do something I don't want to do with my layout, then by golly they can have whatever type they want for whatever reason.
There is nothing wrong with expressing an opinion, but let's remember that is just what it is. An opinion based on life and circumstances the way they se it. Not necessarily mine, not necessarily yours. Most arquements are given as just that, an opinion. Problem is there are some who feel their feelings are the only feelings and everyone should do as they do. These are the very very few. But, like most things, the few sour the bunch and then we begin to see every differing opinion as bad mouthing.
I wouldn't say by any stretch, that the mighty 4 X 8 is going away anytime soon. Build what you want and if your opinion changes, then either build on or tear it down to build something else.
I might suggest however, that when you build this you take into consideration you may want to expand or change. It may be a good idea to build in at least a way to alter your vision. This too is an opinion. You may be in a spot where a 4 X 8 is the biggest and only option available. Your layout area is not the same as everyone elses.
A good response to those few who are "right" is to ask them to come up with the space, finance and assist in the project. After all, it is your little world. No one elses.
Todd
Central Illinoyz
In order to keep my position as Master and Supreme Ruler of the House, I don't argue with my wife.
I'm a small town boy. A product of two people from even smaller towns. I don’t talk on topic….. I just talk.
We started with a 4 X 8 but I built the table in two 4 X 4 halves. Since we moved (4 years ago now) we are starting to put another more permanent layout together and have separated the table and added a 2 X 4 section in the middle along one edge so it's sort of like a dog bone. total of 12' long now. 22" radius curves with an over and under plan at one end. As soon as it's at a point that I'm happy with I will post some pictures.
If you cannot fix it with a hammer;
You have an electrical problem!
IMPO if one is not going to be tackfull (my way or the highway type...go away) Also we have to take things said with a grain of salt. One time I just said I was back into the hobby and a guy took great offience, of me stating somthing to the effect that I left due to a lot of discontent on this site years before, reread my post, had others reread it and we all here came to the openion he was having a bad day and let it go, My only point here is that different people read different meaning into anything and post in a negitive manner..
I really think IMPO is that the hobby is paramount, as each person to thier own desire, and why put anyone down for not having the space, monatary funds of which is expendable income, of any type of layout.
Here is my point. I have three friends in this hobby
1 ...A friend purchases hi buck items and all he has is a diorama over his fireplace. The chooses to just look at his empire, perfectily happy and content. I wired it so that his passengers cars could be lit. He enjoys it greatly....he is a rivit counter and change's them out weekly to a diferent period, extreamly nice rolling stock that anyone would love to have.
.I had personal openions at first viewing it, but never would state them as this is the model railroad hobby to him. he enjoys it differntly.
2 Another has a roomfull of equipment, also a rivit counter and a 5x8 plywood central with a few buildings. He has more stuff then a lot of mom and pop hobby shops perhaps 500 frieght and 20 steam and I have no idea of the diesel count, I would love to have the income to afford that, but he has no desire to do ops or scenry, he too is content to just watch and run it occasionly.
So what...its his hobby and Im glad for him, enjoys it a bit differntly,
3. Another has a larger layout, its a complicated bowl of speggetti, he call's me me a rivet counter...Im not but he enjoys it in his own way. My only complaint here is he calls a coupler a hitch LOL and will never state the word coupler LOL
so what...he enjoys it differently
Me I have and around the room layout because I have the space, was a book case layout and a 4x8 at one time...so what i say....I enjoy the hobby, perhaps differently then you.
Now then I do have a neighbor who thinks I should get rid of my my big dualy, I know he has the loot to get me a smaller new one LOL , but I know he does not have the desire to,
So enjoy it your way, share it with me, and I will enjoy it, as your way too......Take care...John
The main reason for the animosity is that a number of folks feel like their way is the right way and anything else is wrong. Some of these people get pretty vehement about it.
The really sad part is that the animosity prevents people from exploring the island/table top concept beyond the 4x8. For example, with 2 sheets of plywood you can build a 5'4" x 10' 8" table top layout with some wastage or 5'4" x 12' with no wastage. The nice thing about this size is that any 4x8 plan with 18" curves can be used but with 24" curves. Larger turnouts can be used as well.
Enjoy
Paul
sfcouple I love hearing about different ideas and try not to take things too personally, it is just all part of the never ending learning experience.
I love hearing about different ideas and try not to take things too personally, it is just all part of the never ending learning experience.
I agree.
In my opinion, the core problem is not that someone else points out a weakness or challenge with the solution you (or I or a third person) have chosen.
The problem only comes (still in my opinion - your mileage may vary) when people choose to take comments on or suggestions about their layout (or even some third person's layout) as a personal affront.
When some people start talking about how others are "looking down" on them, or "showing animosity", instead of thinking about whether there are any ideas in the suggestions or comments that they could pick out, and use to further their own goals.
It is almost never a bad thing to think more about whether something can be further improved.
If the answer you end up with is "no, the solution I chose is actually pretty good for my circumstances", then that is not a problem - on the contrary - it is a wonderful thing.
And if something someone else suggests something makes you think "hmm - if I take that idea and play around with it a little, where does it lead me?", then again - no problem. That's how we often get new ideas - in the interaction with others.
Smile, Stein