The topic seems to have exhausted itself. Time to call it baked.
Crandell
[locked]
markpierce
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
steinjr In my opinion, the core problem is not that someone else points out a weakness or challenge with the solution you (or I or a third person) have chosen. The problem only comes (still in my opinion - your mileage may vary) when people choose to take comments on or suggestions about their layout (or even some third person's layout) as a personal affront.
The problem only comes (still in my opinion - your mileage may vary) when people choose to take comments on or suggestions about their layout (or even some third person's layout) as a personal affront.
IRONROOSTERThe main reason for the animosity is that a number of folks feel like their way is the right way and anything else is wrong. Some of these people get pretty vehement about it.
I see the same thing in other area's as well. In the DCC arena I see many Johnny-come-lately people being the most anti-DC people out there. I just have to laugh being one who had the control the train not the layout epiphany in 1979. Almost the same with "staging" those who have just learned of the concept seem to be the most admimant that everyone has to have it.
This is one reason I really liked the philosopy Friday question this week. It addresses what some people have gone through to get where they are today.
While it might not be the best use of space, I dont dislike them and infact have a layout that is 5'8" by 8'. Its land locked on 3 sides and I have to pull it out from the wall to deal with issues on the back side. But my room is small, around the room shelf layout was not an option for us. And we got this layout given to us. I like it and I dont mind dealing with the limitations of the curve radius and getting to the back side of the layout. I stay with 4 and small 6 axle diesels due to the 18" curves. I run predominantly Alco diesels with RSD5's and RS11's depending on which prototype I am running at that time(C&O branch line or early BN in the Oregon/Washington state area) Although I might make a modlers choice and update my C&O to more modern times but still with Alco's and use the BN RS11's for the shortline that connects to the main railroad. As long as we enjoy what we have, then who is to say different? In the future my wife and I plan to move to a larger house with more room for a layout. Then I will move to an around the walls type layout. The layout is track plan #23 from the Atlas track plan book, folded dog bone with reverse loop if you use the crossovers of which there are 2. I did modify the rear side small yard to just a connection track for interchange since you cannot see or switch it. Cheers Mike P.S. We had to cut the layout in 2 to get it out of the previous owners basement, so that is the line you see thru the scenery. I havent had time to blend it back together yet. I would have never made it into my room thru the hall door intact either. So I will keep the joint, like a modular layout, so I can remove the layout when we move again. I also hate building layouts, and this one is right were I like to take over, final details, signals ect. I use NCE DCC to operate it.
LHS mechanic and geniune train and antique garden tractor nut case!
There are definite instances where a 4 x 8 footprint can be effectively utilized to build a model railroad. My situation is an excellent example.
I have an area in my basement 10 feet by 21 feet in which to develop my layout. This space comes with a series of complications such as access requirements to windows, closets and an electrical panel. I've drawn up numerous track plans for the space, none of which seemed to be suitable in the long run.
Instead of attempting to fill the entire 200 square foot space with layout all at once, I've decided to build a 4 x 8 foot section and treat it as two 2 x 8 foot "layout design elements" with a view block running down the center. I have an old layout plan book by John Armstrong in which he has a design for a layout he dubbed the "Happy Acorn." The acorn being the nucleus for a railroad designed for future expansion.
With my 32 square feet of "acorn" aligned lengthwise I can lengthen it at my leisure by adding additional sections over time. For now I'll be able to run trains and get something going without worrying about how I'm going to fill my whole space in one fell swoop. And as an added bonus, I can keep everything I've built in case I ever have to move, as a 4 x 8 frame is fairly portable.
For me, a 4 x 8 works very well as I have room to expand it. Those with less space to devote to a model railroad may find that 32 square feet put to better use in some other configuration.
eaglescout Why not have the best of both worlds? After reading one forum that advised adding one foot onto my 4 x 8, I went with a 5 x 8. This allows use of 18 and 22 radius track. I also added several sidings with one end being expandable to both sides if I move to a larger home to add shelves off both sides. with the 5 x 8 forming a T out into the center of the room.
Why not have the best of both worlds? After reading one forum that advised adding one foot onto my 4 x 8, I went with a 5 x 8. This allows use of 18 and 22 radius track. I also added several sidings with one end being expandable to both sides if I move to a larger home to add shelves off both sides. with the 5 x 8 forming a T out into the center of the room.
That's a very good point. A 4x8 can be a good starting point for a larger layout, where the 4x8 may be a peninsula in the final plan. That's why I think a 4x8 could be built as one large industry or one town, with that town being the destination/origin point for the around the peninsula shelves. What doesn't work so well is trying to simulate distance in that small of a space
- Douglas
I have built several layouts ,from 4X8 to 14X22. I am currently in the middle of a 9X12.
The one common factor that they all have had is that I can lay the mainline and start running a train without any assistance from me to switch etc. This is what I enjoy,and it's what I do.
I would not consider a module or a diorama to be fun but thats just me.
SIZE and shape does not matter,enjoyment and personal statisfaction are the the things that count!
Just a big hooray for 4x8, some of the most elaborate layouts are this size, one contributor to this forum mentioned it will make you really use your imagination to make it realistic in this (limited ?) space, one quoted by adding 1 more foot (5x8) will give more room for curves, certainly a wise decision, glad to see there are more than 7 modellers out there that think 4x8 is a great size.
jmbjmb Room factors often dictate our choice more than perhaps some realize. Placement of doors, windows, etc can often limit choices for shelf layouts. In a previous home, I had one end of the basement rec room for a layout, with the stipulation that none of the windows be blocked. Putting that together with a couple of doors, stairs, and some other things, a free standing 5x10 was the best choice for that room. Took up no more room than a pool table would have, but most importantly, left the walls open for her "decor." In contrast, my current layout is a 10x8 L shaped shelf layout, again limited by the room layout. The room itself is actually larger, but I lose an entire side of the room to a weird traffic flow in our home.
Room factors often dictate our choice more than perhaps some realize. Placement of doors, windows, etc can often limit choices for shelf layouts. In a previous home, I had one end of the basement rec room for a layout, with the stipulation that none of the windows be blocked. Putting that together with a couple of doors, stairs, and some other things, a free standing 5x10 was the best choice for that room. Took up no more room than a pool table would have, but most importantly, left the walls open for her "decor." In contrast, my current layout is a 10x8 L shaped shelf layout, again limited by the room layout. The room itself is actually larger, but I lose an entire side of the room to a weird traffic flow in our home.
And this is the point often forgotten by many in the "4x8 vs shelf" debates, and the reason why people offering track planning advice often ask for a sketch of the whole room, not just a rectangle representing the layout, and also ask what other uses of the room the layout will have to peacefully coexist with.
For bigger rooms, walk-around layout can be an excellent idea - especially if you can take the width to 5 feet (for a H0 scale layout) or e.g. use N scale instead of H0 scale, so you can live fairly comfortably with a benchwork width of 3 feet or less.
Smile,Stein
In my 60 yrs in this hobby I have built many layouts in several scales ranging from a 2x6 ft to a 12x18 ft. I have built several 4x8 ft layouts and have enjoyed them all. I think 4x8s are considered starter layouts by some to be replaced by a bigger layout as soon as possible. Many modelers stay with a 4x8 because of limited space or funds. A well designed 4x8 can give years of enjoyment. What happen to that 12x18 layout? Torn down, all equipment and structures sold. Its replacement a 4x8 narrow gauge layout in O scale on wheels (it sits in a corner most of the time) with stub ended staging in back and a small river port with lots of switching in front.. Many of my no modeler friends ask me how I run my trains with out a loop. The reasons I went to a 4x8 1: I sold the house 2: I moved into an apartment and 3: I wanted new challenges and 4: a shelf layout would have had to high for me to work on or operate siting in a chair. Old legs can't take a lot of standing any more. So I think the good old 4x8 is here to stay.
There is no such thing as a bad day of railfanning. So many trains, so little time.
My train room serves more functions - it is also a guest room, my office and serves as a laundry room. There is no way I could ever fit a 4 by 8 layout into this, but this would work:
Doughless,
I agree, big locos on a 4x8 do not look good. But one thing that we must remember is that alot of today's big trains that run these wide nose engines (or a mallet) are a mile long or a scale 60.69 feet long in HO. If a modeler has the space for it, I applaud their endeavor. We can scale the train down to a more manageable size, even half. The end result is a 30 foot train running on an at best mainline run of 60 feet.
Most modellers, however, have a bedroom space or less. Model companies seeing this have increased the amount of smaller locomotives onto the market.
What I like about a small layout (not just the 4x8) is the ability of time and money to build, operate, and maintain the layout. In one year's time, you can have the whole enchilada (is it me or do I use an awful lot of cliches?).
Building a model of Sodor would definitely curb expenses if you charge admission.
__________________________________________________________________
Mike Kieran
Port Able Railway
I just do what the majority of the voices in my head vote on.
Steinjr,
I agree. If I had the room to dedicate to a larger layout, around the walls it would go. It is, in fact, a much more efficient use of space. I also agree that one is limited in curve radii. Alot of equipment can't be used for radii that's less than 22 inches.
I love the trackplan. A great balance of track, scenery, and operation. I was wondering, if you took the backdrop down the middle of the peninsula and put it up against the aisle side, then maybe you you can use the interchange for RR 2 as a float yard and a pier/wharehouse up against the backdrop. Otherwise you've just designed my dream layout.
galaxyMy Other Half, also into trains will want a 4x 8 or less to build an Nscale layout
The developing CR&T with a U-shaped cockpit has apx. outer benchwork dimensions of 5'x9'x5'. A room-notchback in one corner also allows for a "slightly-recessed" helix + two-level layout.
Question: What do CR&T's layout dimensions sound like?
Answer: You Betcha! A model railroad in a 4'x8' layout space!
N Scale is the differentiator here, instead of HO Scale, and is "what makes it all fly" for more operations. P.S.: This is not an "N Scale is better" statement, but simply a choice of scale. Quite frankly, this layout space is manageable-enough to keep CR&T construction busy for many years to come.
We are not necessarily stuck in a fixed-world of a 4'x8'-only piece of plywood -- In that 4x8' layout space!
Conemaugh Road & Traction circa 1956
steinjr sfcouple: I love hearing about different ideas and try not to take things too personally, it is just all part of the never ending learning experience. I agree. In my opinion, the core problem is not that someone else points out a weakness or challenge with the solution you (or I or a third person) have chosen. The problem only comes (still in my opinion - your mileage may vary) when people choose to take comments on or suggestions about their layout (or even some third person's layout) as a personal affront. When some people start talking about how others are "looking down" on them, or "showing animosity", instead of thinking about whether there are any ideas in the suggestions or comments that they could pick out, and use to further their own goals. It is almost never a bad thing to think more about whether something can be further improved. If the answer you end up with is "no, the solution I chose is actually pretty good for my circumstances", then that is not a problem - on the contrary - it is a wonderful thing. And if something someone else suggests something makes you think "hmm - if I take that idea and play around with it a little, where does it lead me?", then again - no problem. That's how we often get new ideas - in the interaction with others. Smile, Stein
sfcouple: I love hearing about different ideas and try not to take things too personally, it is just all part of the never ending learning experience.
I love hearing about different ideas and try not to take things too personally, it is just all part of the never ending learning experience.
I agree.
In my opinion, the core problem is not that someone else points out a weakness or challenge with the solution you (or I or a third person) have chosen.
When some people start talking about how others are "looking down" on them, or "showing animosity", instead of thinking about whether there are any ideas in the suggestions or comments that they could pick out, and use to further their own goals.
It is almost never a bad thing to think more about whether something can be further improved.
If the answer you end up with is "no, the solution I chose is actually pretty good for my circumstances", then that is not a problem - on the contrary - it is a wonderful thing.
And if something someone else suggests something makes you think "hmm - if I take that idea and play around with it a little, where does it lead me?", then again - no problem. That's how we often get new ideas - in the interaction with others.
Smile, Stein
Truer words were never spoken. I've taken offense to a comment when it should have been taken with a grain of salt.
I feel (and I try to live these words) that I would rather hear the opinion of someone with a different view that of someone with the same view. I'm more likely to learn and examine why I like/dislike the topic of the discussion. Unfortunately, I don't always succed.
Your right, by interacting with others, we can all learn and grow.
Mike,
I just wanted to add that I think it is important try to match the theme of the layout to the space available. An HO 4x8 will always have sharp curves, so intermodal trains and six axle wide cab locomotives are a mismatch. If you notice in the real world, the modern stuff is getting longer. If people tend to model what they see, then prototype railroads are making it more difficult for us to use a 4x8 for HO scale. I don't think that the migration away from a 4x8 has much to do with animosity.
If you notice, not too many manufacturers are not supplying long locomotives and doublestack intermodals with their train set offerings (which are shaped like 4x8's). Its mainly F units, GP38's, RS36's, and small steam.
If I wanted to build a layout, say, in the corner of a large basement rec room, where that room had a dual purpose, I could see using the 4x8 instead of the shelf "donut" shape. Narrow shelves on legs floating in the middle of a room takes up more ailse space from the rest of the room and is more difficult to scenic in some ways. A 4x8 could be a tidier presentation and a more realistic representation of a specific place. And if somebody goes to the expense of buying scenic materials, structures, etc, that's probably what they're trying to do, unless they are building the island of Sodor from Thomas the Train (which would be a really cool layout BTW)
seacoast Nothing wrong with a 4'x8'. That said in my opinion the best use of a room or space is sometimes, maybe even often, to build along the walls. N or HO you can get away with 1-2' wide layouts in certain areas and have return loops, dog bones or penisula styled layouts that use the space more efficently. Many do not need the 4' depth (some do for modeling).
Nothing wrong with a 4'x8'. That said in my opinion the best use of a room or space is sometimes, maybe even often, to build along the walls. N or HO you can get away with 1-2' wide layouts in certain areas and have return loops, dog bones or penisula styled layouts that use the space more efficently. Many do not need the 4' depth (some do for modeling).
I added the text in red above.
It is not a given that a walk-around layout always is a poor choice for a H0 scale layout. Especially of you can go to e.g. a 5x9 or 5x10 table instead of a 4x8 foot table.
But for smaller (bedroom sized) room a permanently mounted 4x8 layout does take a lot of space when you add in the space needed for aisle.
Here are two possible ways to fit a H0 scale layout into 10 x 11 foot room with a door as indicated on the lower wall:
1) A point-to-point urban switching layout with fairly generous aisle and room for storage above and below the layout along the walls:
One could fairly easly have dropped the peninsula and made a continuos run connection across the door (perhaps coming into a tunnel under the yard along the left side), if desired to open up the room some more for other uses.
2) Same room with a 4x8 foot table w/aisles on three sides
For smaller rooms, a 4x8 is not necessarily a very efficient use of space.
For putting on the floor in the middle of a bigger room (say in a spot where you used to have a ping-pong table, where you cannot run things along the walls due to other things which cannot be moved), a walk-around layout might still be a good idea.
But if there is plenty of floor space, making a H0 scale continuous loop layout a little wider than 4 feet is a good idea - just going to 4.5 or 5 feet wide would fairly often be a smarter choice than a 4 x 8, since it allows wider curves.
Either way you have to build a frame undeneath the plywood, so whether you put on one piece of plywood on top, or cut off pieces of several sheets of plywood and put them together matters relatively little in construction complexity.
And there is nothing saying that a layout must be rectangular. One could e.g. build a U-shaped layout with turnback blobs at either end of the U.
Or if one wanted to do a shelf thing - to build e.g. two 2 x 10 foot shelves above each other which model different scenes from a railroad, and connect them logically by putting tracks on a plank/cassette representing a carfloat - you take the cars off one scene onto the car float. Move the carfloat to the other shelf. On the other shelf another railroad pulls cars from the carfloat and does something with them.
Or combine a table and a shelf in some way - no one says that the choice is either/or - it can be both/and in some situastions.
There are thousands of ways of doing layouts, both for people who have little space and for people who have more space.
In my opinion, it is more important to use imagination and see possibilities, rather than digging in and complaining when others suggest alternatives to the 4x8 (which in some situations is a perfectly okay choice).
I'll stop flogging this somewhat dying horse now.
Grin, Stein
sfcouple I use the old time philosophy that if I'm having fun with my hobby then I must be doing something right. If we all had the same tastes life would be pretty boring. I love hearing about different ideas and try not to take things too personally, it is just all part of the never ending learning experience. Wayne
I use the old time philosophy that if I'm having fun with my hobby then I must be doing something right. If we all had the same tastes life would be pretty boring. I love hearing about different ideas and try not to take things too personally, it is just all part of the never ending learning experience.
Wayne
I love seeing other people's layouts. Even if it's no where what I'm modeling or interested in, there is always something that I can take away from it. You are right, variety is the spice of life.
This diversity is what feeds the hobby. My wife's uncle loves putting together various kits. He's never built a layout, but he's content building dioramas. Those kits take an eternity to build, so I can't even imagine a whole room sized layout of them.
You built your layout, learned and built another.
And enjoying the hobby, right?
One could have started with a Borrowsian domino.....
TMarsh Each type of layout has it's own arguable good and bad points to which there is no denying either. Or is it iether. That being said, what ever works for you the best, for whatever reason, IS the best. Some will argue a shelf or around the whatever is the best for switching, well that's nice if you are into switching. Some say many things for other than a block of flat top. Some like scenery, some like switching, some just want to see a train roll around the tracks and each style, if thought out can hold a very nice layou. To each there own and as long as their choice does not force me to do something I don't want to do with my layout, then by golly they can have whatever type they want for whatever reason. There is nothing wrong with expressing an opinion, but let's remember that is just what it is. An opinion based on life and circumstances the way they se it. Not necessarily mine, not necessarily yours. Most arquements are given as just that, an opinion. Problem is there are some who feel their feelings are the only feelings and everyone should do as they do. These are the very very few. But, like most things, the few sour the bunch and then we begin to see every differing opinion as bad mouthing. I wouldn't say by any stretch, that the mighty 4 X 8 is going away anytime soon. Build what you want and if your opinion changes, then either build on or tear it down to build something else. I might suggest however, that when you build this you take into consideration you may want to expand or change. It may be a good idea to build in at least a way to alter your vision. This too is an opinion. You may be in a spot where a 4 X 8 is the biggest and only option available. Your layout area is not the same as everyone elses. A good response to those few who are "right" is to ask them to come up with the space, finance and assist in the project. After all, it is your little world. No one elses.
Each type of layout has it's own arguable good and bad points to which there is no denying either. Or is it iether. That being said, what ever works for you the best, for whatever reason, IS the best.
Some will argue a shelf or around the whatever is the best for switching, well that's nice if you are into switching. Some say many things for other than a block of flat top. Some like scenery, some like switching, some just want to see a train roll around the tracks and each style, if thought out can hold a very nice layou. To each there own and as long as their choice does not force me to do something I don't want to do with my layout, then by golly they can have whatever type they want for whatever reason.
There is nothing wrong with expressing an opinion, but let's remember that is just what it is. An opinion based on life and circumstances the way they se it. Not necessarily mine, not necessarily yours. Most arquements are given as just that, an opinion. Problem is there are some who feel their feelings are the only feelings and everyone should do as they do. These are the very very few. But, like most things, the few sour the bunch and then we begin to see every differing opinion as bad mouthing.
I wouldn't say by any stretch, that the mighty 4 X 8 is going away anytime soon. Build what you want and if your opinion changes, then either build on or tear it down to build something else.
I might suggest however, that when you build this you take into consideration you may want to expand or change. It may be a good idea to build in at least a way to alter your vision. This too is an opinion. You may be in a spot where a 4 X 8 is the biggest and only option available. Your layout area is not the same as everyone elses.
A good response to those few who are "right" is to ask them to come up with the space, finance and assist in the project. After all, it is your little world. No one elses.
Well put. Our layouts are our decisions and unless they are kicking in, their opinions are just that.
I have the same problem. My apartment isn't small, but comfortable for the two of us. Finding a location for a layout without intruding into my wife's personal space (She doesn't complain at all, but why push it?) was a little bit of a challenge, but a portable (get it - PORT ABLE & POR TABLE) layout on top of the dining room table. I came up with a very simple track plan around the same size (63 inches by 45 inches) that is a comprimise and balance in size, expense, and available time.
The best thing about limitations is challenge which results in creativity.
rcato Mike, I like your comment. Room is the big issue with building a layout, however, being new to the hobby myself I started with my first layout as a switching layout (which I like) for experience and learning. It is only 1x6 and sits on top of a dresser. My next layout will be based on the MR 4x8 cover layout, CSX (Appalachian on a 4x8). I am moving to this as my next level of education and experience in the hobby. I like that the layout has all the elements of scenery, grades, back drop, tunnels, water features, country and city. I will just change the main industries from coal to cement/concrete. I am excited about it. After that I will build an 11'x12' around the wall layout with staging on the lower shelf. I have the room but I love the stepped approach and I have yet to learn CadRail to draw up the final track plan for the larger empire and I am working on developing a name for my proto-freelanced road. -Ron AlcoRS-3
I like your comment. Room is the big issue with building a layout, however, being new to the hobby myself I started with my first layout as a switching layout (which I like) for experience and learning. It is only 1x6 and sits on top of a dresser.
My next layout will be based on the MR 4x8 cover layout, CSX (Appalachian on a 4x8). I am moving to this as my next level of education and experience in the hobby. I like that the layout has all the elements of scenery, grades, back drop, tunnels, water features, country and city. I will just change the main industries from coal to cement/concrete. I am excited about it.
After that I will build an 11'x12' around the wall layout with staging on the lower shelf. I have the room but I love the stepped approach and I have yet to learn CadRail to draw up the final track plan for the larger empire and I am working on developing a name for my proto-freelanced road.
-Ron
AlcoRS-3
You sound as if you are really enjoying the hobby, and isn't that what the hobby is all about? Do you have a track plan for the 1x6 switching layout?