binder001 I like the idea of manufacturers running more surveys. In this digital age the cost isn't much, but they do get skewed by the guys who love to answer surveys and don't buy locomotives ;-) Another point in the "big versus little" controversy. We are in an age where fewer and fewer modelers do steam AT ALL. We DO have a model culture that has finally caught onto the "one size does not fit all" concept. Back in the day of the Mantuas, Penn-Lines, etc the steamers were mediocre on detail at best, requiring time consuming detailing and the mechanisms were often finicky. Talk about shelf models! I remember working and working trying to get some steamers to run right, while the DIESELS did all the running on the layout because they worked. The old steamers were at best only approximations of one railroad's power. If one modeled the CB&Q you were totally out of the picture for steam, except for a USRA light 2-8-2. None of the Mantuas, et al looked even close to a lot of the steam power that guys want to model. Now we may have "monster" engines but they sure look correct, on the shelf or on the layout. The "good old days" weren't always that good and the current crop of models is usually worth the money.
I like the idea of manufacturers running more surveys. In this digital age the cost isn't much, but they do get skewed by the guys who love to answer surveys and don't buy locomotives ;-)
Another point in the "big versus little" controversy. We are in an age where fewer and fewer modelers do steam AT ALL. We DO have a model culture that has finally caught onto the "one size does not fit all" concept. Back in the day of the Mantuas, Penn-Lines, etc the steamers were mediocre on detail at best, requiring time consuming detailing and the mechanisms were often finicky. Talk about shelf models! I remember working and working trying to get some steamers to run right, while the DIESELS did all the running on the layout because they worked. The old steamers were at best only approximations of one railroad's power. If one modeled the CB&Q you were totally out of the picture for steam, except for a USRA light 2-8-2. None of the Mantuas, et al looked even close to a lot of the steam power that guys want to model. Now we may have "monster" engines but they sure look correct, on the shelf or on the layout. The "good old days" weren't always that good and the current crop of models is usually worth the money.
Don't rule out the brass steamers they actually perform better then the average diesel..In fact as far as diesels Athearn diesel locomotives was a sure bet for superior performance.The other like brands had 4 wheel inferior drives..The Hobbytown diesel was a sure bet as well but,care had to be taken in the assembly of the drive...Brass diesels would run but,howl,whine and grind their way down the track..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
ATLANTIC CENTRAL I met several new modelers last night at our weekly round robin. One told an interesting story about how his neighbor of 10 years across the street has had a "basement empire" all this time - he never knew. Neither knew the other was into trains. I think there are lots of them "hiding" out there. Sheldon
I met several new modelers last night at our weekly round robin. One told an interesting story about how his neighbor of 10 years across the street has had a "basement empire" all this time - he never knew. Neither knew the other was into trains. I think there are lots of them "hiding" out there.
Sheldon
Unfortunately, I think that speaks volumes about the hobby and people's perception of it.
John
A few more thoughts on the "layout size issue".
I made it clear in my previous posts, my experiance is restricted to the Mid Atlantic, I've never personally visited the home layout of anyone outside this area, and have only visited one or two clubs outside this area, but there sure seems to have been one a month in Model Railroader ever since I started buying it in 1967. Now admittly many of those folks and their layouts are long gone, but 40 years x 12 months = 580, mostly "larger" layouts x RMC = 1160.
For every person I personally know or have met who's "basement empire" as been in RMC or MR, I know at least 10 more who have not had their layouts published (although based on quality, many of them should be). So even if we just extrapolate the last 10 years - 10 years x 12 months x 2 magazines x 10 not yet published = 2400, lets call them medium to large layouts starting at lets say 500 sq ft, with an average of 800-1000 sq ft.
Now to another point about "larger layouts". Just because a layout fills a larger space, it is not necessarily more complex. Many larger layouts simply have more "open running", that is more distance between "towns", longer mainline runs, longer passing sidings, longer yards, etc. I have seen more than few "basement empires" with no more turnouts or complexity than many 12' x 20' spaghetti bowl layouts. Since turnouts and their controls are often a major cost factor, many large, but relatively simple layouts likely have a much lower cost per sq ft than many small to medium sized layouts.
And in my work as a residential designer, I have actually designed a 900 sq ft layout, and the custom outbuilding to house it, for a client.
BRAKIE He may share that basement with other members of the family or he may have a pool table,family room or his wife has a laundry room there.
He may share that basement with other members of the family or he may have a pool table,family room or his wife has a laundry room there.
I call Y6B in the corner pocket....
But I do want to discuss the large vs small layout size. What was left out of the discussion about basement fillers, is well over half the country doesn't have a basement. So while basement empires may be common in a mid Atlantic region, in many parts of the country the only option is the spare room.
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Actually the Eastern ,Middle States,and mid South states have basements.Going deeper South and Farther West then basements are almost none existent...We need to realize just because a modeler has a basement means he has a Godzilla size layout filling his basement...He may share that basement with other members of the family or he may have a pool table,family room or his wife has a laundry room there.
Again we can not overlook the numerous clubs in these areas that has wide sweeping curves that can easily handle these larger locomotives..
I guess I'll comment on here too, since most everyone has. I agree that I'd like to see more of the normal, everyday stuff available. Used to be you could pretty much count on finding a GP7 (or whatever you desire as the correct name) on the shelf. Wasn't perfect, and you may have to paint an undec version, but at least it was available. Now you have to wait years between releases and if you're lucky you might get one.
But I do want to discuss the large vs small layout size. What was left out of the discussion about basement fillers, is well over half the country doesn't have a basement. So while basement empires may be common in a mid Atlantic region, in many parts of the country the only option is the spare room. I realize this goes against the grain of the model railroad press (with a couple of exceptions recently) as well as the many others, but I think is in fact a contributer to the decline in new model railroaders. It is protrayed as a hobby that requires significant amounts of room, and big bucks to be in.
Well, it would appear that the DD40X is more than vapor. Check this out:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/48288130@N02/5440509901/in/photostream/
Further rumors say it will have dual motors, be in the Genisis line rather than the RTR. If this is true, sound would also be an option? And, oh yeah, supposedly by year end which probably means early 2012.
dehusman Hergy: Must offer this disclaimer: I am a certified UP nut. What else could I be living in the city where UP headquarters is located? Actually of the dozen or so modelers I know in the Omaha area, I can't think of one who models UP as the primary road.
Hergy: Must offer this disclaimer: I am a certified UP nut. What else could I be living in the city where UP headquarters is located?
Must offer this disclaimer: I am a certified UP nut. What else could I be living in the city where UP headquarters is located?
Actually of the dozen or so modelers I know in the Omaha area, I can't think of one who models UP as the primary road.
We have UP modelers in Ohio and I know one that's chomping at the bits waiting on this engine...Go figure..
Well, I don't see how the manufacturers can win. This post is criticizing the lack of small steam. Another post on here wants a B&O EM1 produced! Different strokes for different folks!
The best solution that I can see is to start my own company and produce smaller steam engines. But if they aren't models of everyone's desired prototypes, do not have a sufficient amount of detail, aren't cheap, etc., etc., then I still won't satisfy anyone, i.e. Bowser, MDC, Mantua, and many others.
Keith Baker
Another issue is that I percieve is that because model manufacturers abandoned pre-depression era modeling decades ago, they don't have the knowledge base to understand the nuances of older motive power and rolling stock. There is little appreciation for the variety and detail of the era.
So while today's diesels and modern steamers might be offered in a half dozen detail variations, the few (if any) older era models are marketed in the 1970's paradigm of one size fits all.
Building a 4-4-0 with the capability of swapping cabs (steel/wood), headlights (oil/arc/electric) and domes, would allow literally dozens of variations to be made. But since very few manufacturers understand the era, they don't know or care to accomodate the options.
Case in point. IHC produced a 2-6-0 and a 4-4-0 that shared the same boiler. They then produced a camelback boiler for the 2-6-0 mechanism, but never marketed it on the 4-4-0 mechanism, even though the parts were interchangeable. How many camelback 2-6-0's were produced? Maybe 100 nationwide. How many 4-4-0 camelbacks were produced? Probably in the thousands. Opportunity lost.
Bachmann has made some baby steps in the area with different cabs and a different tender (but they don't offer the 4-6-0 high drivers with the older tender) and sharing a boiler between the 4-6-0 and 4-4-0. Just thinking a bit further outside the stam box and more inside the deisel box and they can have more options.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
wjstix Technically wouldn't this be a "reissue"?? Seems to me Athearn made these for many years, though I'm sure the new one will be much improved.
Technically wouldn't this be a "reissue"?? Seems to me Athearn made these for many years, though I'm sure the new one will be much improved.
Athearn made a DD35 and called it a DD40 because they were producing the model before the actual production run of the prototype engines.
Hergy Must offer this disclaimer: I am a certified UP nut. What else could I be living in the city where UP headquarters is located?
Indeed, Larry, we had monster locomotive models available back in the day, too. But the difference was that back then you also had a host of small "modern" steam engines from Mantua, John English, Penn Line, MDC and others, along with a broad selection of small current diesels, to choose from at the same time and with their availability extending over many years. THAT is what makes the situation today decidedly different, particular with regard to steam.
CNJ831
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John,I agree there is a shortage of short wheel base steamers..
With today's limited production lunacy I am thankful we can still find cars or locomotives in stock.
People, collectors will buy them just to "have". SOme will think they will "be worth something someday". As long as people will buy and collect such things, they will be made.
They will sell, and sell out most likely, putting money into the pockets of the manufacturer, which the manufacturer will like.
What will be more annoying will be the ones who have the 18" or even 22" curves who will post posts of "why doesn't my DD run on my layout?", OR "How do I get my DD to run on my 18" curves?" OR "will a DD run on my 18" curves?".
Big locos are something many will oooh and aahh over, nothing more.
And I don't think, at least in the case of the real "Big Boy" on dispay at Steamtown, that they are really that impressive in person. I am more inpressed by a heavy Mountain or Berk than the Big Boy.
Maybe the manufacturers will make enough of these "collectors editions" to amass enough money for new tooling to make the real work horses people want for their model RRs. That would be real nice. But I doubt it.
Who knows?
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
I can remember when Trainworld had the sound BLI GG-1 on sae for $125.00. I got 2 of them. Now on Ebay they are going used for around $250.00. It is time for another run. Bli has realy slowed up production and the supply chain.
Bob
Odie Speaking of collectors models...the current owner of BLI's GG1 molds needs to get moving on doing another run of them. I have not seen a single BLI GG1 for sale at any train show this year!
Speaking of collectors models...the current owner of BLI's GG1 molds needs to get moving on doing another run of them. I have not seen a single BLI GG1 for sale at any train show this year!
There's one currently on ebay.
BRAKIE Simply put, you were getting just as much of your money's worth in the 1950's as you are with today's models, nothing more. CNJ831 ------------------------------ BTW..Remember the brass U50? How about some of those long wheel base steamers and the articulated locomotives of the day? How about that Erie Matt Shay? So,IMHO nothing new about gigantic locomotives other then today we have forums to moan and goan because a model may not fits our needs...
Simply put, you were getting just as much of your money's worth in the 1950's as you are with today's models, nothing more.
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BTW..Remember the brass U50? How about some of those long wheel base steamers and the articulated locomotives of the day? How about that Erie Matt Shay?
So,IMHO nothing new about gigantic locomotives other then today we have forums to moan and goan because a model may not fits our needs...
I suppose that depends on who you ask.
Let's not overlook the junkers back in the day nor should we overlook the highly detail brass steamers..
Back in the day we knew what brands to avoid.
kbaker329 I understand that in the past, the majority of manufacturers were practicing model railroaders. The prices were low, but the quality was also lower than it is today. This is not intended as a slight to the pioneers, without their efforts, a lot of us would have blocks for trains! But, the fact is, the quality today is better than yesteryears on mass produced items. While these companies' only concern may be the bottom line, they have to produce accurate and detailed models to survive in today's world. Uncle Irv may have made less profit than today's manufacturer's, but the quality of his pieces were also inferior to the pieces made by his company today. (snip)
I understand that in the past, the majority of manufacturers were practicing model railroaders. The prices were low, but the quality was also lower than it is today. This is not intended as a slight to the pioneers, without their efforts, a lot of us would have blocks for trains! But, the fact is, the quality today is better than yesteryears on mass produced items. While these companies' only concern may be the bottom line, they have to produce accurate and detailed models to survive in today's world. Uncle Irv may have made less profit than today's manufacturer's, but the quality of his pieces were also inferior to the pieces made by his company today. (snip)
Keith, of course the latest models are of better overall quality. Technology has made great strides since Uncle Irv introduced the F-7, et al. Every commodity advances over time. TVs, autos, computers, just about any item one wishes to name, are orders of magnitude better today than a decade, two, or three ago. That is simply to be expected.
The fact of the matter is that those vintage plastic F-7s of Irv's were on the cutting edge of technology when they were introduced in '54. Striking leaps in quality have appeared all along through the hobby's history. Simply put, you were getting just as much of your money's worth in the 1950's as you are with today's models, nothing more today than yesterday.
I, too, am feeling the sting of the missing "run-of-the-mill" power. The heritage Amtrak P42 in Phase III colors sure looks neat, but then I'd have to actually find a P42 first.
Wow, this post generated a lot of responses. I haven't read them all but it seems most don't like the idea of yet another large loco.
1. I cannot agree that the quality of locos has improved. I had about 6 new locos I bought last year that needed repairing--an all time RECORD of failures--mostly Athearns.
2. I visited one of my longtime LHS (out of Atlanta) during my trip to the WGH. The guy there asked me if I was going to order the new DD. I had just bought a Bachmann DD from him about 9 months ago, I didn't need another one and certainly not another Athearn fiasco. I want to give Horizon the opportunity to get their quality up before I sink more money on their efforts.
3. I converted that Bachmann DD with a lot of effort to the 6936 with ditch lights, new paint, sound, etc. I am in the process of building/modifying locos to get all the UP heritage fleet(no, not the ACes). That is modeling and model building, not for just display. I am also finishing UP 949 for 2010 with the 645 prime mover and no front door--that can't be bought as far as I know.
4. I chose to build/modify models that I wanted and those of you who want the small steamer can certainly do the same, after all we are model builders(BTW, there are steamers on my build schedule). And with some of the locos recently released, perhaps building our own is the best option. The more I learn about prototypes and modeling the more I realize that mass model builders can almost never win in building the exact prototype you want. Especially steamers which seem so specialized per railroad. And they could change year over year.
5. BTW, my 12 year old son is finishing up an UP SD90MacH--working on for about a year now by the time you include research, identifying and buying the right parts, etc. Again modeling/model building for real.
Richard
The Pennsy centipedes don't really fit in my plans either but....if I run across a "good deal" on a pair of them I'll buy them just because they're impressive engines and look really great. I can still run them from time to time when the urge strikes me.
Mark
RMR
I understand that in the past, the majority of manufacturers were practicing model railroaders. The prices were low, but the quality was also lower than it is today. This is not intended as a slight to the pioneers, without their efforts, a lot of us would have blocks for trains! But, the fact is, the quality today is better than yesteryears on mass produced items. While these companies' only concern may be the bottom line, they have to produce accurate and detailed models to survive in today's world. Uncle Irv may have made less profit than today's manufacturer's, but the quality of his pieces were also inferior to the pieces made by his company today. (How many DD40's did the B&O have? In fact, how many DD40's were actually built!) If the companies are supposed to make limitless supplies to the customer, then a profit must still be made or they won't last long. This means lowering tooling costs, which means lowering the amount of factory provided detailing. On the other hand, try having a piece custom built. Let's see how expensive that is! Or, look at the cost of detailing an older unit. Look, I wish that there wasn't such a thing as a limited run, I really do. But I don't see it ruining the hobby. I buy what I want when it makes sense for me to. I'm planning on purchasing a Centennial because it fits a future plan of mine. I've always been impressed with the Pennsy's Centipedes, but since they don't fit in my plans, I'll never buy one.
Keith, the major point you are missing right from the start is that Bachmann has a history of producing multiple runs of their steam models and probably with larger batches than anyone else around. That's the reason their steamers can be found in stock, or up for sale, in volume over time. It's not that things like their 2-8-0 are going wanting. On the other hand, the huge, largely shelf queen, models we increasingly are seeing are generally done as a single run of perhaps a couple of thousand units and that is it. Obviously they will sell out far more quickly to a small consumer base than a total product run of perhaps 10k to 20k of Bachmann 2-8-0's. It is not a reflection of overall demand, it's about overall numbers of product.
Another factor that many here are unaware of, which figures into the current situation, is that from the hobby's inception and for decades thereafter, virtually all the manufacturers were, or had been, actual practicing model railroaders. As such, a great many of them worked at it for the love and betterment of the hobby. They were willing to keep their prices rock bottom to encourage as many others as possible to join in. With the exception of the craftsman kit makers today, all those hobbyist/manufacturers are gone. Replacing them are companies whose only concern is their latest bottom line. I take nothing away from them as businessmen, as I'm sure that they are making a far greater profit margin per unit than Uncle Irv ever did. But what they are at the same time doing to the real hobby is quite distressing.
Sir Madog CNJ831, if that´s the way it is, and I tend to agree to you, I find it rather sad, that the majority in our hobby finds so little consideration as to their wishes and needs. True, those bread and butter locos, which are missing in the market, have an abundance of prototypes, but with some effort, it would be possible to find a common denominator which would guarantee a sufficient amount of sales. As an example, the leading German model railroading magazine conducts a reader survey each year - valuable input for the industry.
CNJ831,
if that´s the way it is, and I tend to agree to you, I find it rather sad, that the majority in our hobby finds so little consideration as to their wishes and needs. True, those bread and butter locos, which are missing in the market, have an abundance of prototypes, but with some effort, it would be possible to find a common denominator which would guarantee a sufficient amount of sales.
As an example, the leading German model railroading magazine conducts a reader survey each year - valuable input for the industry.
I'm not so sure the serious model railroader is a) a majority (at least in the US), and b) not having their desires met for the most part (at least better than in previous decades).
As I alluded to in my earlier post, count the collectors (and many of those are part time collectors and part time serious), and the dreamers, as compared to the number of active layouts. I don't believe, without some evidence to the contrary, that the active layouts with themes being seriously addressed is in the majority.
I note that even Blackstone started with a K-27 for their 1st entry into the market. The Ks are among the biggest of narrow gauge engines used in North America, were pretty much limited ot one prototype, and are not particularly suited for many layouts - yet the models of Ks far outsell models of the much more common narrow gauge 2-8-0s, 2-6-0s, and 4-4-0s.
For a long time, brass fulfilled the dual role (collector and layout) you suggest. But for some like myself, it was always out of range. In the mid-1970s, when I entered the work force on $500 a month take home, an $80 brass locomotive wasn't happening. Today, there is a lot of plastic/die-cast that fulfills the dual role just like brass used to. Bachmann makes plenty of smaller locomotives, as do Atlas, Bowser, Roundhouse, Walters, and even Athearn. BLI has made Mikados in addition to their giant steam. The smaller models don't get the press and buzz that the large ones do - but they exist. Although the regular Bachmann line is panned as low quality, it's far better than the Tyco predecessors, and can generally hold its own against the better die cast and plastic of 40 years ago.
Today's variety of offerings - excluding the giant engiines - is better than in the past because of the easy availability of old stock through markets such as eBay. It's just not as easily seen in the ads in MR.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
Put me down as wanting a 40x. The next loco Athearn should make is the BIG 3 unit turbine. That will take sharper curves
Those who want smaller engines there's a GP 9 in the future also. Seriously, I would love to see a UP 2-8-2 or 2-8-0 but it doesn't appear to be in the cards. As someone who's been at this for over 50 years, I can't believe the quality and quantity of the locos offered today and they run beautifully compared to the brass "grinders" that we put up with at premium prices.