I see that Athearn has just announced a DDA40X diesel locomotive as the latest addition to the Athearn line. I can only regard this as yet another "shelf-model" for the growing collector element in the hobby. Just how many discussions have there been on this and other forums recently regarding the over abundance of monster locomotives and the broad segment of actual model railroaders (as opposed to collectors) begging for new small steam? Yet this is what gets produced. At 14" long, this model is going to look just lovely traversing the curves of any typical hobbyist's layout. And in regard to the price, God knows!
Based on this latest offering, maybe Athearn's next venture could indeed be into steam - might I suggest a 4-8-8-8-6. While virtually inoperable on any layout, I'm sure it would have great collector's appeal!
CNJ831
megh...make it a 4-8-8-8-8-6 and call it even...
mmmmm---anyone have a 65" curve for that one?
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
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CNJ831maybe Athearn's next venture could indeed be into steam - might I suggest a 4-8-8-8-6. While virtually inoperable on any layout, I'm sure it would have great collector's appeal!
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That and I wish some of the top manufacturers would try making some of the common loco's available on a regular basis rather than stretched out releases.
Springfield PA
If they're going to make big locomotives at least they could make a Yellowstone. It would look ridiculous on my layout but I would buy it anyway. One of my first impressions of trains came from the DM&IR Yellowstone on display in Duluth MN.
CNJ831 I see that Athearn has just announced a DDA40X diesel locomotive as the latest addition to the Athearn line. I can only regard this as yet another "shelf-model" for the growing collector element in the hobby. Just how many discussions have there been on this and other forums recently regarding the over abundance of monster locomotives and the broad segment of actual model railroaders (as opposed to collectors) begging for new small steam? Yet this is what gets produced. At 14" long, this model is going to look just lovely traversing the curves of any typical hobbyist's layout. And in regard to the price, God knows! Based on this latest offering, maybe Athearn's next venture could indeed be into steam - might I suggest a 4-8-8-8-6. While virtually inoperable on any layout, I'm sure it would have great collector's appeal! CNJ831
There will be the few that will operate these locomotives on their home layout and at larger clubs a fact many seems to be overlooking but,once again I find myself agreeing with your assessment for the average home layout its a show case queen..
Larry
Conductor.
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Except - that doesn't stop peopel from runnign them on a 4x8 with 18" radius curves. Clearly they sell, otherwise why would they keep making umpteen versions of the Big Boy and then the giant diesel versions? There's a large enough segment in the hobby that doesn't really give a hoot how silly it looks, they just want the BIGGEST loco they can find. Yes, that means they aren't making locos that the rest of us want, but then again since the ones the rest of us want don't sell like hotcakes, the manufacturers work on a preorder basis so they don't end up with a warehouse full of unsold product and we moan and complain about that!
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
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Oh yes they'll sell. Collectors, UP fans and guys with large radius layouts and clubs will grab them up. I don't like them either, but my chioces and most others fall to deaf ears any how. It's sort of like brass in the '60's/70's. Lots of collectors. It's too bad the r/d money wasn't spent on more badly needed freight cars.
Oh yeah, I hear 26 radius is the minimum for these brutes, so that leaves out the 4x8 crowd
John, I wish I had a better handle on what most of us would have supported for this "big announcement", but.....darn it....it's like the current bounty of turbines and Big Boys....everyone's doing them....several times. Why won't anyone do a 2-8-8-4? Why no Pacific variants apart from the ubiquitous Pennsy K4? Why is Bachmann the only company bringing in a Consolidation?
But another DD variant? C'mon, guys. The only thing big about the announcement is that it was a big locomotive. Might as well market a Virginian Triplex and expect that to move off the shelves.
Oh, never mind.....
Keep one thing in mind here, if it weren't for the locomotives that "collectors" buy there would most certainly be a lot less of any of them produced. Like it or not collectors actually do help drive the market.
Mark
RMR
For once, I find myself in (almost) complete agreement.
But, instead of an imagineered supermonster steam centipede, let them produce something that actually had a prototype:
The Russian 4-14-4
Not only will it out-monster any current model, even the prototype 1:1 scale railroad couldn't run it!
In the meantime, I will continue to run my six- and eight-coupled steam, and count my blessings. (My 'big' locos are 2-8-2s.)
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
I guess they feel there is a big enough market to earn some kind of return on a very limited production locomotive. Oh well, I hope they keep that up. I'd love to get my paws on a couple C32-8's, since Athearn has the old Railpower tooling!
Forty Niner Keep one thing in mind here, if it weren't for the locomotives that "collectors" buy there would most certainly be a lot less of any of them produced. Like it or not collectors actually do help drive the market. Mark RMR
Mark,I have no doubts it will sell out in a matter of days as does most large locomotives...
Where was the preorder announcement for this locomotive?
selector John, I wish I had a better handle on what most of us would have supported for this "big announcement", but.....darn it....it's like the current bounty of turbines and Big Boys....everyone's doing them....several times. Why won't anyone do a 2-8-8-4? Why no Pacific variants apart from the ubiquitous Pennsy K4? Why is Bachmann the only company bringing in a Consolidation? But another DD variant? C'mon, guys. The only thing big about the announcement is that it was a big locomotive. Might as well market a Virginian Triplex and expect that to move off the shelves.
The escalating problem, as is becoming more and more obvious year to year, is that the HO locomotive manufacturers, save perhaps for Atlas and occasionally Bachmann, have pretty much turned away from supporting the market for actual modeling model railroaders. One gathers that they feel that there is more "quick" money to be made in producing what can only be classified as collectibles for model train enthusiasts. Long term sustainability of the hobby market is not among their goals.
Odds are that unless the DDA40X Athearn model's design strays significantly from the prototype, it will not operate on curves less than perhaps 30". Just how many hobbyists operate on pikes with that, or larger radii, maybe 2% or so? Even if altered to run on smaller radii, it will look absolutely ridiculous! And look how limited the scope of each new model's prototypical application is becoming with the Big Boys, turbines and now the DDA40X (which Bachmann already recently offered). The latter was used on only one road, for a limited time, on a limited number of specific trains. Its significance in the prototype railroad world was about as representative as the Sea Shadow is to the U.S. Navy! Pretty soon we'll be down to one-off experimental prototypes!
In the past, brass took care of the wealthy "collector" element's need for the big and unique in the hobby; while innumerable other companies supplied the folks who were the actual heart and soul of model railroading with meaningful locomotives and rollingstock. These latter firms have essentially all but faded away, leaving us increasingly with just the manufacturers who aim their products at the collectors' market...particularly with regard to steam. Only the blind can fail to see the final outcome of this folly.
Well said Forty Niner,and i will add if it weren't for the people that has only room for a 4by8 the market will be a little less.
Russell
I don't think they will be getting any of my money this year as i have all the big engines i need. Steam and diesel.
Bob
Just another incentive and justification to build a larger layout.......
Okay, guys. C'mon. You know the Marketing Gurus are behind this. Some beancounters, deep in the recesses of Corporate America, studied the Model Railroading Market, and discovered that the overwhelming majority of Model Railroaders are men.
They also studied what kind of marketing most attracts the attention of men.
What did they come up with? Men are attracted to things labeled "DD." Tell most guys that the attractive woman starring in this movie, or singing that song, is a 40-DD, and the guys will go glassy-eyed and start drooling. The general rule is, when men reach this state, money just starts falling from our pockets.
Now, these marketing beancounters don't know the difference between a 40-DD, and a DD40. All they know is, this combination of letters and numbers makes men act stupid and compliant. When coupled with the information that the DD40 was BIG, really makes the dollar signs flash in their eyes.
Honestly - are we really that surprised?
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CNJ831 said:
Odds are that unless the DDA40X Athearn model's design strays significantly from the prototype, it will not operate on curves less than perhaps 30". Just how many hobbyists operate on pikes with that, or larger radii, maybe 2% or so?
Do you really think that figure is that low? Of all the modelers I know personally, and on who's layouts I run or visit, I only know one with curves below the 28"-30" radius range? I can count several dozen home layouts just within a few minutes of my house, all with curves at or above 28" - 30" radius - many being more in 36" radius range.
That said, I agree that the production of this loco seems pointless. How many were there? how long did they last? how many railroads had them?
Just more of the same - big "famous" collector pieces. Having produced a similar loco, and possibly having a lot of the needed research, may have been a factor for Athearn.
And we don't know who their "factory" is in China - Bachmann has also done the research and produced this model. So even with all new tooling to suit Athearn, a lot of the ground work may be in place making it "affordable" to bring to market - not that that makes it a good idea.
Sheldon
To say that a large number of people have 26"+ radiuses based on what some selected friends have is not really a good statistic base to stand on.
I have however seen uncountable questions on this and other forums, about how many loco´s can run on 22" radius, as that is a big radius to many people.
Of course, if you have a basement empire, then you can have 8´radiuses without bigger problems. But most hobbyists are often bound to a spare bedrom (10´x12´), that is certainly why so many asks for smaller locomotives, as there is no justification to run a a Big Boy, or some other behemoth on anything smaller than where the locomotive can pull 50+ cars and NOT chase it´s own tail......
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One thing is for sure, the hobby is entirely self-justified. No one should be any other way than self-justified when subjecting a Big Boy to his 22" curves. And I would be self-justified in keeping this to myself when I learn of it.
Crandell
CNJ831 I see that Athearn has just announced a DDA40X diesel locomotive as the latest addition to the Athearn line. I can only regard this as yet another "shelf-model" for the growing collector element in the hobby. Just how many discussions have there been on this and other forums recently regarding the over abundance of monster locomotives and the broad segment of actual model railroaders (as opposed to collectors) begging for new small steam? Yet this is what gets produced. At 14" long, this model is going to look just lovely traversing the curves of any typical hobbyist's layout. And in regard to the price, God knows! Based on this latest offering, maybe Athearn's next venture could indeed be into steam - might I suggest a 4-8-8-8-6. While virtually inoperable on any layout, I'm sure it would have great collector's appeal! CNJ831 It'll look great in one of their train starter sets with a circle of 18" radius track, three freight cars and a caboose.... of course I'm going to want the Conrail version... John
It'll look great in one of their train starter sets with a circle of 18" radius track, three freight cars and a caboose.... of course I'm going to want the Conrail version...
John
Hoomi Okay, guys. C'mon. You know the Marketing Gurus are behind this. Some beancounters, deep in the recesses of Corporate America, studied the Model Railroading Market, and discovered that the overwhelming majority of Model Railroaders are men. They also studied what kind of marketing most attracts the attention of men. What did they come up with? Men are attracted to things labeled "DD." Tell most guys that the attractive woman starring in this movie, or singing that song, is a 40-DD, and the guys will go glassy-eyed and start drooling. The general rule is, when men reach this state, money just starts falling from our pockets. Now, these marketing beancounters don't know the difference between a 40-DD, and a DD40. All they know is, this combination of letters and numbers makes men act stupid and compliant. When coupled with the information that the DD40 was BIG, really makes the dollar signs flash in their eyes. Honestly - are we really that surprised?
Can't fault your logic, but am thinking that Athearn could have saved themselves some money and just produced a DD38 instead...
Graffen To say that a large number of people have 26"+ radiuses based on what some selected friends have is not really a good statistic base to stand on. I have however seen uncountable questions on this and other forums, about how many loco´s can run on 22" radius, as that is a big radius to many people. Of course, if you have a basement empire, then you can have 8´radiuses without bigger problems. But most hobbyists are often bound to a spare bedrom (10´x12´), that is certainly why so many asks for smaller locomotives, as there is no justification to run a a Big Boy, or some other behemoth on anything smaller than where the locomotive can pull 50+ cars and NOT chase it´s own tail......
And we know this how? We don't even know how many modelers their are? Here where I live, the average home easily has a 1500 sq ft foot print, at least half are two stories, plus 99% of them have basements, and that's where the model trains are - in 1500 sq ft basements - even if they only take up half of it.
Of all the modelers I know personally or who's open houses I have attended here in the Mid Atlantic region of the US, only my layout and two others are not in basements - and most of them, regardless of location, filled spaces of 800 to 2000 sq ft.
We have a regional group that organizes a fall open house schedule that includes layouts from southern New Jersey, Phily, Delaware and most all of Maryland - This is a lot of different layouts, only a few are "spare room" size.
Just for fun, I will do some research and see if I can come up with a "count". I do believe there are more "basement empires" than many people think. I think maybe the number of basement empires is played down by some to avoid "class envy" in this hobby. OR, at least here in the Mid Atlantic of the USA, there are more model railroaders than we think, if all you experts are telling me there are 10 or 20 10' x 12' layouts for every one of these guys I know or have visited - which is it?
Inquiring minds want to know?
UPDATE - the regional open houses here every October and November, last year included 104 layouts, almost every one a "basement empire". Not everyone I know with a "basement empire" sized layout participates, and I'm quite sure my lone wolf self does not every modeler in the Mid Atlantic. All within a 1-1/2 hour drive of my home.
That totally avoids the real issue, as the people that aren´t building basement empires, don´t necessarily want to have their modest size layouts on a tour schedule. I know for sure that I wouldn´t. As I think that people that joins a layout tour should get their time spent at something that can be watched over a little bit longer time.......
Most people don´t have big layouts, if they did I would be totally gobsmacked if that would be the case however.
I think most model railroaders that aren´t of the "Die Hard" type, settles with something a bit more manageable in size. And if it´s because of time, money, space or whatever reason, it is totally justifiable.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Graffen: To say that a large number of people have 26"+ radiuses based on what some selected friends have is not really a good statistic base to stand on. I have however seen uncountable questions on this and other forums, about how many loco´s can run on 22" radius, as that is a big radius to many people. Of course, if you have a basement empire, then you can have 8´radiuses without bigger problems. But most hobbyists are often bound to a spare bedrom (10´x12´), that is certainly why so many asks for smaller locomotives, as there is no justification to run a a Big Boy, or some other behemoth on anything smaller than where the locomotive can pull 50+ cars and NOT chase it´s own tail...... And we know this how? We don't even know how many modelers their are? Here where I live, the average home easily has a 1500 sq ft foot print, at least half are two stories, plus 99% of them have basements, and that's where the model trains are - in 1500 sq ft basements - even if they only take up half of it. Of all the modelers I know personally or who's open houses I have attended here in the Mid Atlantic region of the US, only my layout and two others are not in basements - and most of them, regardless of location, filled spaces of 800 to 2000 sq ft. We have a regional group that organizes a fall open house schedule that includes layouts from southern New Jersey, Phily, Delaware and most all of Maryland - This is a lot of different layouts, only a few are "spare room" size. Just for fun, I will do some research and see if I can come up with a "count". I do believe there are more "basement empires" than many people think. I think maybe the number of basement empires is played down by some to avoid "class envy" in this hobby. OR, at least here in the Mid Atlantic of the USA, there are more model railroaders than we think, if all you experts are telling me there are 10 or 20 10' x 12' layouts for every one of these guys I know or have visited - which is it? Inquiring minds want to know? Sheldon UPDATE - the regional open houses here every October and November, last year included 104 layouts, almost every one a "basement empire". Not everyone I know with a "basement empire" sized layout participates, and I'm quite sure my lone wolf self does not every modeler in the Mid Atlantic. All within a 1-1/2 hour drive of my home.
Graffen: To say that a large number of people have 26"+ radiuses based on what some selected friends have is not really a good statistic base to stand on. I have however seen uncountable questions on this and other forums, about how many loco´s can run on 22" radius, as that is a big radius to many people. Of course, if you have a basement empire, then you can have 8´radiuses without bigger problems. But most hobbyists are often bound to a spare bedrom (10´x12´), that is certainly why so many asks for smaller locomotives, as there is no justification to run a a Big Boy, or some other behemoth on anything smaller than where the locomotive can pull 50+ cars and NOT chase it´s own tail......
An interesting comment, although I have to say that I'm quite surprised by your experience, Sheldon. I don't believe that in the years I attended the convention layout tours in my NMRA region I ever saw a total of 100 basement empires! Very often what was encountered were more in the way of single operator affairs situated in rather cramped basement, or even attic, quarters. Club layouts can, of course, be much larger, but these are frequented by only a very small minority of hobbyists.
Now at one time or another MR's editorial page has claimed that about 75% of all the layouts ever built were of the 4x8 variety (thus the annual layout projects). The final readers' survey the magazine conducted and published found that the average size of a hobbyist's layout was somewhat more than 12' square. Just a handful of really large ones in the survey could easily skew even that number. Now I don't regard 12'x12' as particularly large and certainly not basement filling. And depending on just how it is designed, I wouldn't really expect it likely to have very broad curves, unless the trackplan was a simple loop.
To tell the truth, among the local hobbyists I'm familiar with I can count only one or two true basement empires and very few of the others have track radii exceeding 22"-24". This and what I've seen on regional NMRA tours has always implied to me that very large pikes were probably the extreme exceptions, not the commonplace. Now I would imagine that many point-to-point, around the wall, layouts do have fairly large radii, but I don't see very many of them in my region and they aren't suitable for running monster locomotives like a Big Boy, or DDA40X, anyway. The majority that offer more useful continuous running are, by far, of the freestanding variety, or incorporate relatively narrow peninsulas with rather modest radii curves.
Once again I have to say that if MR would only resume publishing readers' surveys we'd be so much better informed about what really is "typical" in our hobby.
P.S, You know we know a realistic approximation of just how many actual model railroaders there are, don't you? It's just that folks here don't want to accept the numbers!
CNJ831,I suspect some of the older clubs in this area is running 32-36" curves since I notice a lot of large locomotives.
As far as Godzilla size basement layouts I suspect 8% would be closer then your 2%...
As far as 4x8 footers I believe the advanced modelers is replacing 4x8 footers with ISLs and other shelf type layouts..
I suspect that those who do belong in 'clubs'..if by clubs we are also including those basement empires that are/or did have a collective involved may only be somewhere in the range of 2-5%..if that.
...and I will bet anyone now that it will be based on a 'flexible' frame...hence, more toy-like in appearance....
blownout cylinder I suspect that those who do belong in 'clubs'..if by clubs we are also including those basement empires that are/or did have a collective involved may only be somewhere in the range of 2-5%..if that. ...and I will bet anyone now that it will be based on a 'flexible' frame...hence, more toy-like in appearance....
I suppose a round robin would fit under club as well as the modular clubs with their wide curves.
The round robin groups I have had the pleasure of joining in on the operation was by all definition Godzilla size layouts since all was in large basements with large sweeping curves.
I'll stick with 8% being a more realistic figure then John's 2% or your 2-5%..
I plan on purchasing one and it will be a collector's model, for now. I currently do not have the layout for a unit of this size, but I plan to in the future. I would like to have a decent representation of the Union Pacific in the late '60's/early '70's time frame. And while the majority of trains would not be headed by a double diesel, some would be. However, I can't wait until I have the layout to purchase the equipment I would like for it due to the limited runs on this stuff. There are locomotives manufactured in the last few years that I cannot find, so I can't expect the situation to improve.
Keith