blownout cylinder I did come across something like what you are referring to Sean...
I did come across something like what you are referring to Sean...
One has to be cautious about just how realistic color photos from the late 1930's really are. Color film had just become available to the general public at that time and for whatever reason, the processing typically resulted in prints that would be considered dark and under exposed today. It also produced highly saturated colors that were not accurate representations of what was really there. The yard scene above is a classic example. The light in the photo has the dullness about of the level of a normally cloudy day, yet the sky is obviously perfectly clear!
This under exposure effect darkens everything in the scene, particularly the already dark colored freight cars, giving them an exaggerated sense of soot and weathering. Unquestionably, the roof of nearly every car is dark and soot stained, but look at the ends. The reporting marks are still clearly seen on several of them. And remember too that the depth of color in "boxcar red" varied considerably road to road. Many had very dark, almost deep maroon, shades of paint so as to show less evidence of soot. In short, a properly exposed image of the same scene I'm sure would have looked far less grim. Look what happens when the original image is brightened up just the slightest bit:
Now try to imagine just how much of a difference there might have been if the original shot had had the correct degree of exposure!
Another point I would advise caution about concerns the dating of some early color photos. I have seen the one illustrated above attributed to the middle war years, rather than the 1930's. As I mentioned previously, color photos by the general public and especially by railfans, were rare until after the war. So always attempt to find an accurate original citation for the date any early color photo was taken. A lot of the images on-line today have very dubious dates and often represent someone's efforts spanning a number of years, rather than just one specific year.
CNJ831
A lot of the images on-line today have very dubious dates and often represent someone's efforts spanning a number of years, rather than just one specific year.
-------------------
While I agree with your overall assessment I will caution about being to critical after all those are the only photos we have to do our research..If one studies each picture individually and look beyond the main subject dating pictures isn't that complicated just as long as he has some common knowledge of what he is looking at..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
That's just it...
In any media there has to be questions about whether they were properly exposed or not..in this case it is not just a case of the photo itself but as to what contrast your monitor is even set...
I think in this case it was only pointing at the various shading that could be made out..as a lot of the detail was lost in shade...
Then again...for raw detail work it can point to certain things such as the drivein...
set up near Camden N.J. by one Richard Hollingshead, Jr, this drivein came about when people were supposedly out of money for such things...1933, June...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drive-in_theater
I have seen photos even photoshopped as well, to make them look like they were older..sepia, frayed, torn edges and the like...that is why it is always a good thing to get these from trusted sources..historical societies, public collections in libraries...they are, after all, only re-productions of that which had been before...
I have discovered in my perusing of a ot of the sites that not many show the 'social history' of their locales either so you are pretty much left up to your own conclusions. An example of this are the local dragstrips that peppered a lot of areas...don't see these around in any special collection sites I've come across...
And since there is a question about the provenance of a lot of these photos, these were used under fair-use as well. From this site...http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=428585&page=854
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
i may be wrong here but I think many shop owners took pride in their stores. Talking to an older gentleman a week or so ago he said he remembered when shop owners would sweep their front walks several times a day. It got them out of the shop and it was a social thing as people would walk by and would say hi. Remember in those days people were a little more sociable and most people knew everyone in the town. If it was the big city then most people probably knew the people for several blocks as there were shops everywhere. People were more local as not everyone could afford a car and all shopping was within walking distance. + there were no cockroaches(bluetooth things in ears) that kept people from socializing with one another. I think it was a friendly time than it is now a days where everyone is on edge that the person next to then is going to mug them or kill them.( a little exageration I know but you get the point).
The old guy I talked to was shoveling his front area to his store in medina, then went about sweeping up the rest of the mess. He can be seen daily at the opening of the store sweeping the front area and tidying it up. I think we have lost that in our current socitey which makes our period a little more dilapidated.
My 2 cents worth.
alco's forever!!!!! Majoring in HO scale Minorig in O scale:)
rs2mike i may be wrong here but I think many shop owners took pride in their stores. Talking to an older gentleman a week or so ago he said he remembered when shop owners would sweep their front walks several times a day. It got them out of the shop and it was a social thing as people would walk by and would say hi. Remember in those days people were a little more sociable and most people knew everyone in the town. If it was the big city then most people probably knew the people for several blocks as there were shops everywhere. People were more local as not everyone could afford a car and all shopping was within walking distance. + there were no cockroaches(bluetooth things in ears) that kept people from socializing with one another. I think it was a friendly time than it is now a days where everyone is on edge that the person next to then is going to mug them or kill them.( a little exageration I know but you get the point). The old guy I talked to was shoveling his front area to his store in medina, then went about sweeping up the rest of the mess. He can be seen daily at the opening of the store sweeping the front area and tidying it up. I think we have lost that in our current socitey which makes our period a little more dilapidated. My 2 cents worth.
Very true...today people are glued to their Ipods and cell phones...and face to face discussion is becoming a lost art. The small stores also contributed to the community as a place to meet and socialize...we've lost that with the big box stores nowadays.
CNJ831 TMarsh: The problem I have is most every picture of the "olden days" is in black and white giving it a faded somewhat dirty and worn look. Therefore a clean colorful 1930's or 40's just doesn't look right because I am comparing it to a faded colorless photo. We tend to want to model what we see and no matter how accurate it may be, it just doesn't seem right. If you think about it, the 1930's looked about like the world does now. A few more colors, newer designs but general condition and brightness, about like now. Not all faded and dingy. Absolutely correct and that is why layouts done in the fashion of the F&SM and its ilk are a total fiction in regard to their appearance. It is simply an example of modeler's license, which I have no problem with, but it is not an accurate depiction of any reality and particularly not representative of eastern New England during the Depression Era. I would add that anyone intent on modeling urban America as it appeared during that era take the time to view a selection of newsreels and even some early 1930's Hollywood films. In the former you may see bread lines and often old newspapers in the curbside gutters in the close-ups (I've often wondered if that wasn't stage dressing by the photographers), but all the buildings seem to look in the same condition as would today's in a street scene. Likewise, trains of the era seen on film (not PR films, but in general pictures) show surprisingly little weathering. These never seem to look anything like even moderately weathered models do. Sometimes the wood looks a bit weather beaten, but the reporting marks, lettering and heralds are alway relatively clean an crisp. CNJ831
TMarsh: The problem I have is most every picture of the "olden days" is in black and white giving it a faded somewhat dirty and worn look. Therefore a clean colorful 1930's or 40's just doesn't look right because I am comparing it to a faded colorless photo. We tend to want to model what we see and no matter how accurate it may be, it just doesn't seem right. If you think about it, the 1930's looked about like the world does now. A few more colors, newer designs but general condition and brightness, about like now. Not all faded and dingy.
The problem I have is most every picture of the "olden days" is in black and white giving it a faded somewhat dirty and worn look. Therefore a clean colorful 1930's or 40's just doesn't look right because I am comparing it to a faded colorless photo. We tend to want to model what we see and no matter how accurate it may be, it just doesn't seem right. If you think about it, the 1930's looked about like the world does now. A few more colors, newer designs but general condition and brightness, about like now. Not all faded and dingy.
Absolutely correct and that is why layouts done in the fashion of the F&SM and its ilk are a total fiction in regard to their appearance. It is simply an example of modeler's license, which I have no problem with, but it is not an accurate depiction of any reality and particularly not representative of eastern New England during the Depression Era.
I would add that anyone intent on modeling urban America as it appeared during that era take the time to view a selection of newsreels and even some early 1930's Hollywood films. In the former you may see bread lines and often old newspapers in the curbside gutters in the close-ups (I've often wondered if that wasn't stage dressing by the photographers), but all the buildings seem to look in the same condition as would today's in a street scene. Likewise, trains of the era seen on film (not PR films, but in general pictures) show surprisingly little weathering. These never seem to look anything like even moderately weathered models do. Sometimes the wood looks a bit weather beaten, but the reporting marks, lettering and heralds are alway relatively clean an crisp.
True. Looking at old color documentaries, it's always striking to see how things stop to look "old" and just seems to be contemporary. Black & White pictures alter greatly our perception of reality. One would be surprised to see the extensive colors use back in the 19th and early 20th century.
I remember reading a report about historic houses that was compiled in 1927. They listed all the colors used on traditionnal houses. All bright colors ranging from red, lime green, bright purple, cyan and yellow. When you look at pictures in the same book, all black & white, it looks as if it was the end of the world!
When I decided to weather my steamers, I was expecting grimy engine and using dullcoat to make the finish matte. Even freight engines looked glossy and well-maintained. All the picture showing dilapidated engine were taken on the death row in the late 50's.
As one pointed out, there was a feeling of proudness shared by the society in the old times and RR weren't the exception as leaders of the new modernity. I remember my first real job when I read that, my boss was an old folk that forced us to clean the floor and windows everyday. And yes, in the end, we were proud of it.
Being a railfan in the 1870's-1880's was probably a delightful endeavour with all these shining brass and joyful colors.
Matt
Proudly modelling the Quebec Railway Light & Power Co since 1997.
http://www.hedley-junction.blogspot.com
http://www.harlem-station.blogspot.com
Ulrich rs2mike: i may be wrong here but I think many shop owners took pride in their stores. Talking to an older gentleman a week or so ago he said he remembered when shop owners would sweep their front walks several times a day. It got them out of the shop and it was a social thing as people would walk by and would say hi. Remember in those days people were a little more sociable and most people knew everyone in the town. If it was the big city then most people probably knew the people for several blocks as there were shops everywhere. People were more local as not everyone could afford a car and all shopping was within walking distance. + there were no cockroaches(bluetooth things in ears) that kept people from socializing with one another. I think it was a friendly time than it is now a days where everyone is on edge that the person next to then is going to mug them or kill them.( a little exageration I know but you get the point). The old guy I talked to was shoveling his front area to his store in medina, then went about sweeping up the rest of the mess. He can be seen daily at the opening of the store sweeping the front area and tidying it up. I think we have lost that in our current socitey which makes our period a little more dilapidated. My 2 cents worth. Very true...today people are glued to their Ipods and cell phones...and face to face discussion is becoming a lost art. The small stores also contributed to the community as a place to meet and socialize...we've lost that with the big box stores nowadays.
rs2mike: i may be wrong here but I think many shop owners took pride in their stores. Talking to an older gentleman a week or so ago he said he remembered when shop owners would sweep their front walks several times a day. It got them out of the shop and it was a social thing as people would walk by and would say hi. Remember in those days people were a little more sociable and most people knew everyone in the town. If it was the big city then most people probably knew the people for several blocks as there were shops everywhere. People were more local as not everyone could afford a car and all shopping was within walking distance. + there were no cockroaches(bluetooth things in ears) that kept people from socializing with one another. I think it was a friendly time than it is now a days where everyone is on edge that the person next to then is going to mug them or kill them.( a little exageration I know but you get the point). The old guy I talked to was shoveling his front area to his store in medina, then went about sweeping up the rest of the mess. He can be seen daily at the opening of the store sweeping the front area and tidying it up. I think we have lost that in our current socitey which makes our period a little more dilapidated. My 2 cents worth.
I also agree, there's nothing more annoying than walking through Best Buy and people with their head buried into their cell phones.
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
What the heck do people talking on cell phones because they're talking to people they already know or people listening to music because they're trying to get some time to themselves without having to hear someone else's asinine conversation on the bus have to do with damage to aging structures?
one heck of a run on sentence
Not taking anything away from how a person wants their layout to appear, and like I said earlier, they do look more as I have seen in photos, there were most definately run down sections of town. After all, first and foremost a Model Railroad is an expression of how a person wants to see or remember something. But I am reminded of a time with my Mother, who was born in 1929, a few years ago while looking through some old pictures she had of her youth. The picture was, of course, black and white with a haze type look to it of her standing in front of her childhood home on the farm in the late thirties/early forties. She made the comment "it sure would have been nice if they had color film back then (they may have, but the average person obviously didn't use it much or it was expensive. But either way, that's the way she put it) because that house was really pretty. Mother always liked color." While looking at pictures she would tell me what colors a dress was, the flowers, cars etc. It really didn't click with me until this thread and the pictures that were linked of the times, that things really were about the same.
Another issue with color pictures and films of days gone by is the "colorization" of many photos. The colors and contrasts that are created may not be very accurate of the actual item photographed.
Still, accurate or not, I very much enjoy looking at the work people do with their visions of the past.
Todd
Central Illinoyz
In order to keep my position as Master and Supreme Ruler of the House, I don't argue with my wife.
I'm a small town boy. A product of two people from even smaller towns. I don’t talk on topic….. I just talk.
TMarsh Another issue with color pictures and films of days gone by is the "colorization" of many photos. The colors and contrasts that are created may not be very accurate of the actual item photographed. Still, accurate or not, I very much enjoy looking at the work people do with their visions of the past.
Yup...and inaccurate doesn't even begin to describe the situation with the early "colorized" postcards of railroad venues that one can find on eBay and elsewhere!
About 1910 what I assume to have been a New Haven RR photographer shot all the little towns and stations along the Maybrook Line. The derived photos graced postcards that were intended for sale at the various local NH/CNE stations. I have a bunch of these, which I used some years ago as the basis for creating an HO miniature of my hometown, circa 1915. All these cards were beautifully colorized.
However, if one reads the very fine print on the back of the cards, it indicates that the images were all colorized in Germany! I'm sure that their choice of colors were totally abritrary and would even be decidedly different from those employed in the States. God knows what the actual colors of any of the buildings in town really might have been!
Read this months Train magazine about rails and the Civil War. While they have a B&W photo of some 4-4-0s, they describe the color of them along with the brass. They sounded very different from the old black sooty steamers. Those were kept spit and polish cleaned as much as possible. Although maybe tough to impossible to do so by the end of the war.
As an aside, I wonder how long UP will go before repainting those colorful Heritage units?
My Grandfather's family had a few businesses served by rail among them, a zinc mine, cattle pins and a shared siding for stores. When I was very young a lot of the track had been pulled up, etc. But there were some pictures and discussions about the pics. Things got built then run down and then repaired/repainted throughout the years. The pins could be full of you know what and muddy or somewhat vacant and recently painted/whitewashed. I do remember painting the weigh scales building for the pins, it was always kept in first class condition. I say all of that because I could model those pins in a variety of conditions and all of them be correct, depending on the timeframe.
Richard
Came across this as well...note the Toronto, Hamilton and Buffalo loke behind the inspection car...
As a publicity shot this would make a good one...considering that this was supposedly taken in 1958, towards the end of the TH & B days....yet apparently they still looked after their locomotives...up to a point
NittanyLion What the heck do people talking on cell phones because they're talking to people they already know or people listening to music because they're trying to get some time to themselves without having to hear someone else's asinine conversation on the bus have to do with damage to aging structures? one heck of a run on sentence
My point was more of people took pride in their work and place of business in the past. People knew the people of the town the town new the shop owners. It was a way of life that we have lost. People make their layouts look like no one took care of their buildings, that it rained black soot, that trash was left everywhere. I think that was not the norm. They look great don't get me wrong, but I think like weathering locos or rolling stock it goes overboard.
blownout cylinder Now, THIS is even more dilapidated....
Now, THIS is even more dilapidated....
No, that's Trunk-ated.... the driver must have been doing the Monster Mash. And it for sure ain't MY daddy's Oldsmobile...
John
rs2mike My point was more of people took pride in their work and place of business in the past. People knew the people of the town the town new the shop owners. It was a way of life that we have lost. People make their layouts look like no one took care of their buildings, that it rained black soot, that trash was left everywhere. I think that was not the norm. They look great don't get me wrong, but I think like weathering locos or rolling stock it goes overboard.
The less you have, the more you care about it. Nowadays, things have less value because they can be easily replaced and there's a trend that everything that gets old is in the way. Taking care of thing is often seen as a waste of time.
That remind me one of my coworker. He always tells me I made a mistake when I bought back my grandfather house. I'm proud to have save a part of my family history. But to him, the time put in restoration effort is pure waste, I should have bought a new condo and use my free time and money in restaurants...
In an other way, dilapited equipment and buildings have an epic feeling that I can understand. It always looks heroic to see a heavily weathered engine running for profit against all odds... That is not different than the late 18th romantism when everybody in Europe built false ruins in their garden... Looks like trains have their own poetic fiction.
To wind you up...it's a conspiracy..
blownout cylinder A thread I found on another forum actually has an incredible amount of photos as well to illustrate the above.... http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=428585&page=716 All 1,080 pages of it....
A thread I found on another forum actually has an incredible amount of photos as well to illustrate the above....
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=428585&page=716
All 1,080 pages of it....
Great site! On the first page about a third down is a Santa Fe delivery truck in a city scene. On page three is the classic OWL drive-in theater shot. Definitely a few hours of looking at city scenes, cars, and other Americana.
Jay
For some reason, in MRR delapidation is widely considered more realistic. In real life, scenes typically contain everything from new, to moderately worn, to worn out, to dilapidated, but one rarely sees a scene modeled that way.
I have no idea why that is.
- Harry
HarryHotspur For some reason, in MRR delapidation is widely considered more realistic. In real life, scenes typically contain everything from new, to moderately worn, to worn out, to dilapidated, but one rarely sees a scene modeled that way. I have no idea why that is.
But regarding why there isn´t different degrees of weathering? I can´t speak for others, but when I have added a building to a layout, and that building is cleaner than the others (and it doesn´t matter that it "might" be so), I always get the question: Why is that building not finished.......
Go figure!
Swedish Custom painter and model maker. My Website:
My Railroad
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Another site, although a bit smaller in scale, is this one...
http://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=312145#Post312145
Lots of street scenes in this one...a little more focused
Another site...
http://theoldmotor.com/?cat=20
I agree with you on this, Harry. Remembering back to the early 50s when I was a wee lad, the industrial area down near the train yard/tracks was a bit seedy looking. Lots of smoke, grease and oil. A few blocks away and things were a different, cleaner and neater. Drive a mile or two further and many houses and yards were near pristine. Most men that owned a car were very proud of them and kept them as shiny as possible. Go over to the farmers market and you did see work trucks that were a little rusty and dirty. Gee, I wonder why.
I remember alleys behind buildings were somewhat dirty but they weren't filthy by any means. That doesn't mean there weren't any, by any means, just that I didn't see them.
It simply depended on where you were at any given time.
Jarrell
What is really funny is this...how to account for factories closed up for up to 10 years...still looking like...
This building is 132 years old and has stood empty for more than 10 years. All four buildings that made up the block have been out of business for 5-15 years.
Noticed that the paint trimwork is still 'fresh'...not as in major fade...
Now...
Differing levels of housing conditions...
I think it all comes down to a matter of degree. I'm modeling a West Virginia mining town in the late 1960's. The "company houses' are no longer owned by the company, the mines are playing out, and there's bound to be a couple of "missing teeth" in the neighborhood.
I think the problem with some layouts is that the dilapidation is the rule, and not the exception. I've seen Howard's layout, and I think it's very well rendered. It's certainly a feast for the eyes... but outside of a few specific scenes, the weathering effects are fairly minimalist.
The effect is an inviting and realistic blend, busy, but not oppressively so, as some would argue George Selios's F&SM is. This is the feel I'm striving for with my work.
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
Artificial paint was first introduced in 1859, and greatly reduced the price of many colors of paint. Before that, the color was based on the natural product made to make the color. Rusty red was dirt cheap because it was made with...well, not dirt exactly, but clays containing iron ore. It wore well and was cheap so was used for freight cars, barns and many other things. Purple needed (IIRC) the ink from a sea creature, so was very rare, so it became a "royal" color because only kings and dukes could afford it. Once paint was cheap, folks added a lot of color. "This Old House" one time in restoring a Victorian house found that in the 19th c. the house had been painted in something like 11 different colors !!
One thing easy to forget is that in the steam days there were many more trains, most all of them belching out coal smoke that rained cinders down on everything. Freight cars and buildings near the tracks got the brunt of it; if you painted a boxcar dark red, the roofs and ends would look very dark in a few years from continually having coal rain down on them. People heated with coal too, so everything in a big city would be a bit grimy.
Of course, coal smoke wasn't the only culprit. The railroad across the street from me growing up (the Minneapolis Northfield and Southern) had dark blue diesel engines and cabooses with silver roofs...although I didn't know the roofs were silver til I saw a model of one. There was a dark layer of grime - probably from the diesel exhaust - on the engines that you couldn't tell it was silver under there.
Of course years back railroads worked to keep things like passenger cars as clean as possible. New streamliner diesels were also usually kept very clean too. One factor that affects that now is that washing a locomotive creates water with oil and other pollutants which the railroad has to dispose of properly - leading many railroads to rarely if ever wash equipment now.
Course the human factor has to be remembered too. I remember the story of someone going to Mesabi Iron Range during the Depression when things were very bad for the mining companies. They expected to see run-down cities and towns, and instead found the range town with buildings with new paint and clean streets. Unemployed people spent their time painting and fixing their house, yard and fences, and I guess in some instances people volunteered to help keep things like schools and parks clean.
I guess I'm late to the party, but I'll throw in my two cents anyway!
I have a thought on this subject and don't know if anyone has brought it up or not, I don't think so. I view weathering on our layouts as similar to the makeup that actors wear on stage. If you see them up close they tend to look like clowns. From a distance(in the audience) if appears to give them more life. When I weather buildings it either looks good from a distance or up close. Very rarely do the same amounts of weathering look realistic from both viewing distances. Since I generally model for myself and not the camera I tend towards the grimier side in order to see it from a distance. I know in real life from that actual distance you would hardly see the dirt, but I want that "life" to show up. This doesn't address the original thought of modeling general neglect and dilapidation but it's a general theory behind my weathering anyway. Do I have trash everywhere on my layout? Not yet!
The steam engine servicing terminal on the first section of our layout was all my son's idea. Being pretty new to the weathering game, I realized pretty quickly that I'm just not going to be able to do the heavy weathering that I see associated with most of these terminals . So everything from the roundhouse to the ash conveyer shows signs of use, but certainly not neglect. Not what you would expect to see compared with the rest of our modeling that is being done in modern day.
But I'm not sweating the fact that our steam terminal looks rather new. In fact, I think I came up with a pretty good way to "reason" it that way. I'm just saying that our local historical society got ahold of it and and is seeing to it that everything is restored back to working order, to preserve a bit of the towns history. They also purchased and restored to museum quality (requiring no weathering!!!) a small steamer to run scenic excursions with. And the yard offices have been turned into a museum so kids from the local schools can come learn about the "old days".
My observations for modeling my layout during the 1960s in Los Angeles, I used pictures I had taken back then. People took much better care of their things and didn't litter like we see today. Kids didn't throw rocks at open auto racks, doing so wasn't even though of then. Their was no spray can graffiti on railroad cars and buildings I don't want to model that look. I didn't see dilapidated industrial buildings like today, some may have a bit more weathering because of being older, but were kept in decent repair.
The Southern Pacific Railroad during the 60s actually washed their diesels, and repainted them, a few may have needing paint but for the most part they looked good. The right-of-way was kept free of weeds because the railroad had weed killer spray trains that would make the rounds on the line. I don't have many weeds growing on my layouts main line.
I do weather my freight cars to tone them down a bit. Lead base paints were used back then and car paint jobs on freight cars lasted much longer than the paint used today that fade after a few years.
If I were modeling the modern era, I would just take some confetti throw it on the layout for the trashy look. And have closed industries in dilapidation along track side would be the norm.