Several have identified the Bachmann 2-8-0 as an example of a good idea. Let us concede that point and move on to whatever the next good idea is. Let's assume that I'm an importer and am willing to have that be a (inset wheel arrangement here) locomotive. So which one shall it be?
How about one that uses some of the tooling that already exists for a new offering to lower the development cost. Bachmann's proven they're pretty good at it. As I pointed out in my post, Bachmann could offer several new locomotives without having to start from scratch. It would just be carrying on an already established and successful tradition.
Why assume the next good idea has to be a new idea? It can just be an elaboration of a previously established good idea. The N&W Y6b was nothing more than a USRA 2-8-8-2 on steroids. The Boeing 737 went into service in 1968 and is still being built.
I know. How about I import a limited number of x-x-x's and sell them for $682 each? I'll bet no one will complain about that.
Everybody will complain about it and those not complaining about the price will complain that it won't go around an 18" radius curve.
Maxman,
First I think all of Andre's suggestions would do well. I know I would buy most of them. Second, when this has been discussed in the past, lots of good suggestions have been made and lots of good "overlap" design scenerios outlined that would allow one drive to supply 3, 4 or even more prototypes thereby lowering production costs even if the market for each of them is a little small.
And while I agree locos do need to be relatively accurate, no more "perfection" is needed than what currently exists in the market. AND, MTH seems determined to lower those standards backwards into the toy realm of just painting any name on the side you want.
I think Andre maks a good point, we need to to both support and lobby Bachmann to do more of what they have done so far. Now i'm even more determined to be on my way to the train store for some more 2-8-0's.
Sheldon
andrechapelon Maybe we're going about this the wrong way. We do know that Bachmann is quite willing to do small to medium sized locomotives. Rather than wasting effort railing against the likes of BLI and MTH, maybe the focus ought to be to encourage Bachmann to get a bit more creative with their offerings.
Maybe we're going about this the wrong way. We do know that Bachmann is quite willing to do small to medium sized locomotives. Rather than wasting effort railing against the likes of BLI and MTH, maybe the focus ought to be to encourage Bachmann to get a bit more creative with their offerings.
Should it be a generic x-x-x? No, that won't do because all the potential purchasers will complain that it does not represent a specific prototype. Note that I will eliminate from the potential purchaser list the "casual model railroader" because I know that these folks don't have moderate or advanced interest in the hobby.
How's about a specific prototype x-x-x? No, that won't do because unless it's a UP or PRR prototype I can't sell enough of them to get my money back, plus I'll be badgered by everyone elso because I didn't do one for them. And then the PRR and UP nit-pickers will complain that I got some gnat's eyeball size detail incorrect and won't buy them anyway.
Maybe I can sell something that can be bashed into many different prototypes? Hmmm, that won't do because I surveyed all the 60,000 MR forum members and less than a dozen are willing to do that.
Talk's cheap. We do a ton of it here most days. But the importers let the sales to the speaking for the hobby as a whole.
Crandell
Maybe we're going about this the wrong way. We do know that Bachmann is quite willing to do small to medium sized locomotives. Rather than wasting effort railing against the likes of BLI and MTH, maybe the focus ought to be to encourage Bachmann to get a bit more creative with their offerings. They've already got most of the tooling it would take to make a serviceable version of one (or both) of these: http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/SP2585Z2.JPG
or (same design, different details): http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/UP201.JPG
They've already got the cab and tender tooling for one of these: http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr1002/sp2321.jpg
UP had similar engines and they are good layout sized engines. SP also liked to play musical tenders and the USRA medium tender closely resembles some of the ex-EP&SW tenders occasionally used on SP's T-28's. That would appeal to the freelance crowd. The T-31 class had Walschaert valve gear and is also an option for Bachmann.
The Pennsy K4 chassis could be used as a starting point for one of these: http://www.railarchive.net/gmogallery/alton5296w.htm It wouldn't be dead on, but it would be close enough to satisfy all but the most anally retentive.
Same goes for this: http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/SP2458.JPG Identical Harriman heavy design, different details. Use the K4 chassis, new boiler, USRA medium tender, cab from the 2-8-0 and you've got a nice generic Pacific that's nearly as adaptable as the 2-8-0. The only really new tooling would involve the boiler.
Andre
Personally, I don't see any reason to buy the newest and greatest. Wait a few years and buy older stuff from the people who have to have the newest and greatest. For example, I'm now in the market for a couple of Proto U28Bs, and they've been out for five years now. Good deals to be had, too.
Crandell, The point remains that sold out or not, we don't know how many locos those Q2's represent. Again I would bet ALL the Q2's don't equal one batch of of Spectrum 2-8-0's. If BLI is making money that way, good for them, but they are missing a lot of my money, and apparently a lot of money from others on here as well.
All the while I continue to buy stuff like Bachmann 2-8-0's - I'm planning for a few more right now. One or two that will be kitbashed into more accurate C&O 2-8-0's, a few more for the ATLANTIC CENTRAL and one or two to be kit bashed into 0-8-0's just like the B&O did with many of its 2-8-0's in the later days of steam.
Bachmann has already made way more profit just selling ME 2-8-0's than BLI makes on a Q2.
The score remains something like this (including diesels):
Proto2000 50 +/-
Bachmann 33 and likely growing
Athearn 12
Intermountain 9 and likely growing
BLI/PCM 9 and likely done
Atlas 0
MTH 0
Kato 0
selectorI don't pretend to have a good handle on what the hobby needs, but I sure know what those paying want, and so do the solvent suppliers. So far, big steam seems to be pretty robust.
And that appears to go for big diesels as well, Crandell. Just look at the Centipede offering by BLI. I think it's been out less than 6 months now and they went like hot cakes! So much so that BLI already has a scheduled 3rd run due out for release in Spring of '11.
Personally, I think the Centipedes are ungainly and awkward-looking beasts. Lash two together and you have over 183' of locomotive. (2.1'+ in HO) Even if it had a NYC herald pasted across its nose, I still wouldn't own one.
Just like in life, people seem to naturally gravitate towards the impressive - i.e. the "Texas-mindset" phenomenon: If it's bigger; it's got to be better! Although the bigger locomotives may have been the "bread 'n butter" of the RRs, it was the smaller locomotives (e.g. switchers, MIkados, etc.) that held the RRs together and kept them running on schedule.
I am glad to see some of the smaller diesels - e.g. Atlas' Alco HH600/660 switcher - getting released. I'd equally like to see some of the smaller steam in plastic.
Is it fair to say that the larger steam came out in a time where it was less likely to be "altered" or "customized" for a specific RR than earlier small steam? On second thought, a NKP or PM 2-8-4 Berkshire looks very different than a B&A or P&LE Berk. Course, that could also be said for some of the ubiquitous Mikados built for the various lines.
So, with all that said, I'll end by quoting Emily Patella: "Never mind."
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
As was stated a few posts back, I think by galaxy, the fact is that there is a give and take in the hobby. The importers do have to make a buck, and they need us to supply the buck. But who is doing that? Somebody is speaking with his wallet big time out there. BLI has surely sold out the second (different) model of the UP 9000's to be produced inside of two years. BLI just put up a series of photos of their painted model. Trainworld doesn't have any Rivarossi BB's left....not a one at their bargain basement prices? Why is that? The second run of BLI's Q2's is all but spoken for, and try to find a Paragon2 Y6b at a substantially discounted price...that isn't on eBay.
I do most emphatically agree that if we, as a group, get really loud and snarky about more choices, but mostly if the larger Pennsy/UP/SP/N&W/C&O stuff begins to gather a thick layer of dust, the importers are sure to hustle just a bit to get the sales ringing once again.
tpatrick After all this conversation it should be clear that resistance is futile. The only answer is to bite the bullet, throw in the towel and model Pennsy. A whole world of abundance will open to you. Probably every PRR loco ever rostered, at least for the past century, is available in some form and priced from cheap to wowser! Come out of the shadows and into the light. Start modeling Pennsy tonight!
After all this conversation it should be clear that resistance is futile. The only answer is to bite the bullet, throw in the towel and model Pennsy. A whole world of abundance will open to you. Probably every PRR loco ever rostered, at least for the past century, is available in some form and priced from cheap to wowser! Come out of the shadows and into the light. Start modeling Pennsy tonight!
Why? Pennsy, founded in 1846, disappeared over 40 years ago in the Penn Central merger. Union Pacific, OTOH, has existed continuously for 148 years and some months. Of all the class 1's, it's the only one that still exists with its corporate identity intact. The rest of them have disappeared as the result of mergers and aquisitions. You can legitimately model the UP from the 1860's to the present day. You can't say that for Pennsy or any other erstwhile class 1 for that matter.
As for locomotives, you can claim the same the same thing for the UP, especially since Pennsy's acquisition of new power ceased with its disappearance into Penn Central.
If the point is to outwit, outplay and outlast, UP wins hands down. UP survives, Pennsy hasn't been on the island for years.
Right after they pry my gun from my cold dead hands.
Atlantic Central,
My memory isn't perfect, but I am fairly certain I had a Bachmann 2-8-0 in the '70s. Perhaps I rounded up to "40 years", but if I missed it by 10, does it really matter to the discussion at hand? I also stated that the Bachmann / Spectrum 2-8-0 has been around (a long number of years) in ONE FORM OR ANOTHER. My meaning behind that was the Company was building a 2-8-0 for a very long time. I had two of the Bachmanns that I eventually sold, and traded up to 3 Spectrums of which I currently have two.
I did not mean to convey a problem with quality in either them or the older AHMs (which I had quite a few). FOR THE TIMES, you got a really good loco for the money. Those older ones if put out today would just not match the quality of what so many of us expect for today's production.
On, while I never got to work in a hobby shop, I've been a steady patron of them since 1957.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
I would still contender that manufacturers will win over.
COnsumers can only vote so much with their $$$. ANd lately consumers have been "demanding" Big boys and large steamers that the manufacturers are all to ahppy to produce for those who will buy them at their higher prices. We have a scandanavian modeler on here who bought 25 Big Boys, simply to Have them simply becasue 25 was the real number of BigBoys produced in real life.
We will end up buying what manufacturers produce, or we will not buy anything and suffer ourselves, or take old stuff that many complained was crap and less detailed and buy it off ebay to rework.
Someone who speaks chinese well, can gather statistical facts that are acurate for potential sales/profits, and can travel to a chinese model train manufacturer and present the facts may get teh manufacturer to answer teh USA public's demands. But there are to many IFs in taht statement.
The manufacturers HAVE tested teh waters to see about answering our demands. In the form of: pre-orders for certain locos with potential delivery dates. SInce they don't get the pre-orders we all hate so much, they don't produce and our demands are not met, and may not be for the next loco we "demand". And we have proven we are having none of that blind pre-order or advanced reservation stuff. MAybe eventually manufacturers will get it that we don't wnat to do business that way, that we want product delivered in a timely fashion and on the shelves in sufficient quantities to satiate our desires, but until then and in a model we wil run on our railroads, we have to do it their way.
Like cars, we WILL eventually buy what the auto manufacturers build when we need a new car, regardless of whether it's what we demand or not. Or we will buy old cars to fix up, or we will buy no car and suffer public transportation. SOme cars like the retro camaros or Mustangs may be available on a limited basis, so if you want one, you will pay the price they demand and take what you can get throuhg your local dealer, or pre-orde to guarantee your delivery, probably AT or ABOVE MSRP.
LIke Crandell has said NOTHING produced for this hobby is a need, it is ALL wants. We cannot eat our trains and we can't get much heat throwing a big boy into the fireplace, and we wouldn't wear our trains out in public for warmth. I really do have more locos than I need, and have said next Christmas "no trains" but I said that the last 2 Christmases as well, and have added to my loco roster, by 4 locos this year alone.
And it is amazing what people wil buy during recessions and what tehy are willing to pay for it. Like I said Suzie's Cupcakes can sell a single 50 cent "gourmet" cupcake for $5 and have a great demand for it, and rake in profits. and train manufacturers can sell big boys at high prices during a recession.
Now if only I can come up with something people want and dont need in a recession that is cheap to produce, but will sell for a high MSRP, I would be a rich man.
Now, Anyone wanna pre-order and put down a down payment on my sometime-in-the-future-to-be-produced-and-released 2-6-2?
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
Graffen Isn´t it so that the more "serious" model railroader wants to buy the locomotives he NEEDS, regardless of the size of the Loco?
Isn´t it so that the more "serious" model railroader wants to buy the locomotives he NEEDS, regardless of the size of the Loco?
My take would be that would imply that the majority of model railroaders on this list are NOT "serious" model railroaders based on the number of people trying to figure out hw to get a big articulated engine around 18" radius curves and through #4 switches.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
mobilman44 Hi! May I jump into the pot? The larger steam loco models tend to get a lot of attention, and that's understandable. However, there were a lot more "smaller" steamers on the rails from the Civil War thru the early '50s. The model manufacturers know this, but they also know that - typically - attention equals sales. One of the major exceptions to this is the Bachmann / Spectrum 2-8-0, which has been with us for 40 years plus in one form or another. I suspect most of us have or have had one of these. There have been some others, especially those built by AHM years ago. But while other small locos are available today, they just don't seem to sell - perhaps partly because of poor performane and/or quality. My favorite steamer is the ATSF BLI 4-8-4, which happens to be the biggest steamer on my layout. I would love to have some 2-8-2s, 4-6-2s, 0-8-0s, 0-6-0s and the like, but there just isn't anything out there that meets my "needs". FYI, my "needs" are a bit more specific than a generic loco with my favorite roads (ATSF & IC) decaled on it. Regarding price, its just not a whole lot more expensive to create a 4-8-4 as opposed to an 0-6-0 if you are starting from scratch. The larger one will take more material, and a somewhat larger motor, and perhaps some additional details - but the total cost is just not all that different. All that being said, I believe that the model mfgs are mainly looking to produce "sure things", and in special runs to assure total sales. I can't say I blame them, but it sure would be nice to see some more attention to those smaller locos that did all the grunt work for so many years.
Hi!
May I jump into the pot?
The larger steam loco models tend to get a lot of attention, and that's understandable. However, there were a lot more "smaller" steamers on the rails from the Civil War thru the early '50s. The model manufacturers know this, but they also know that - typically - attention equals sales.
One of the major exceptions to this is the Bachmann / Spectrum 2-8-0, which has been with us for 40 years plus in one form or another. I suspect most of us have or have had one of these. There have been some others, especially those built by AHM years ago. But while other small locos are available today, they just don't seem to sell - perhaps partly because of poor performane and/or quality.
My favorite steamer is the ATSF BLI 4-8-4, which happens to be the biggest steamer on my layout. I would love to have some 2-8-2s, 4-6-2s, 0-8-0s, 0-6-0s and the like, but there just isn't anything out there that meets my "needs". FYI, my "needs" are a bit more specific than a generic loco with my favorite roads (ATSF & IC) decaled on it.
Regarding price, its just not a whole lot more expensive to create a 4-8-4 as opposed to an 0-6-0 if you are starting from scratch. The larger one will take more material, and a somewhat larger motor, and perhaps some additional details - but the total cost is just not all that different.
All that being said, I believe that the model mfgs are mainly looking to produce "sure things", and in special runs to assure total sales. I can't say I blame them, but it sure would be nice to see some more attention to those smaller locos that did all the grunt work for so many years.
Mobilman44,
I must take exception to some "facts" you seem to have wrong. The first Bachmann 2-8-0 was indroduced in the early 80's. And while I know that is a really long time ago to some young people, it is not 40 years by any means. AND, more importantly, that orginal loco has NOTHING in common with the recent Spectrum, now Regular Line loco except its wheel arrangement. That old loco was a Wootten firebox Reading loco - the current loco is a Baldwin conventional firebox loco built for the IC and a large number of other roads with minor variations.
Poor quality? My eight Spectrum 2-8-0's run great. So do my two Spectrum 4-6-0's
AHM, yes that was poor quality in my mind, as far back as I remember and I started working in a hobby shop in 1969 or so.
The Bachman 2-6-0 and their 2-6-2 are just the Bachmann 0-6-0 with a pilot truck added for the 2-6-0 and a pilot and trailing truck for the 2-6-2.
Hardly a world class model, and they're cheap in both price and quality. :-(
Cheers
Roger T.
Home of the late Great Eastern Railway see: - http://www.greateasternrailway.com
For more photos of the late GER see: - http://s94.photobucket.com/albums/l99/rogertra/Great_Eastern/
I think that most people who purchase a Big Boy et al only purchase one and not several.
However, it's possible that people who purchase smaller power purchase multiple copies.
I have something like eight eight Spectrum 2-8-0s and four Spectrum 4-6-0s, two large drivered and two small drivered. I'd love to get a few decent, Spectrum quality, 2-6-0s.
Then again, I personally purchase multiple road power, steam and diesel, as I don't like single units except for yard engines. I much prefer the fleet approach and limit my purchases accordingly. I like my operators to say, "Ah, the local has No. 183 today" rather than "Ah, the local has THE 2-10-0."
The smaller loco, a B&O ten wheeler, had 8 bidders, 5 of whom bid over $150 with a final price of $200. This loco is an older brass model, from the late 50's or early 60's I believe, and as such may need remotoring and additional work, and is likely not as detailed as newer offerings, brass or plastic, not to mention DCC if the buyer uses DCC. This is a model only a die hard B&O fan or a knowledgeable free lancer would care about.
Precisely. A freelancer could use the engine or a B&O fan could use it. However, the partisans of other railroads will pass it up because the only thing it really has in common with the 4-6-0's of other roads is the wheel arrangement. Simply centering the headlight, dropping an oil bunker in the tender and painting it for the Southern Pacific would generate hoots of derision and not sales from the SP crowd.
Right now, there's an SP T-31 4-6-0 up for bid on EBay with a minimum bid of $290 and a Buy It Now price of $325. The engine will probably sell and it wouldn't surprise me to see it go for the BIN price. However, the purchaser will not be someone who just wants a 4-6-0, but will be an SP fan. Varney could sell its "Casey Jones" (based on the SP T-28 - similar to the T-31 but with Stephenson valve gear) to everybody in the 50's in part because most modelers were content either to letter it for a freelance road or letter it for a prototype road even if it didn't resemble anything their favorite road ever owned. That's not the case now. If someone wants a model of a modernized Santa Fe 3400 class Pacific, slapping "Santa Fe" on a Mantua Pacific (or someone's rendition of a USRA Heavy) ain't going to cut it.
Problem is, the farther back you go, the more steam variety there is and it makes it a bit more problematic to choose a locomotive, especially if you're trying to appeal to the prototype crowd. The way that appears to make most sense (to me at least) would be to create a line of locomotiives that take advantage of previously existing tooling. In that regard, I think Bachmann's done a bang up job of spreading tooling costs across several locomotive models to get maximum return on investment.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL selector: I know I harp on this niggling point, probably too much, but nobody reading here NEEDS anything remotely connected with this hobby. We WANT...oh how we WANT. And that drives the purchasing behaviour, as surely as it has done for the automobile industry. What you see offered in numbers is what sells, minus minor adjustments due to lag between the customer base and the suppliers...typically about two years. I don't pretend to have a good handle on what the hobby needs, but I sure know what those paying want, and so do the solvent suppliers. So far, big steam seems to be pretty robust. Crandell Crandell, we don't really know that because we don't know how many Big Boys Athearn, Rivarossi, MTH, and BLI have produced or sold vs how many 2-8-0's and 4-6-0's Bachmann has sold. Could be Bachmann has sold way more of those, than all the Big boys put together two or three or ten times over? We just don't know. Sheldon
selector: I know I harp on this niggling point, probably too much, but nobody reading here NEEDS anything remotely connected with this hobby. We WANT...oh how we WANT. And that drives the purchasing behaviour, as surely as it has done for the automobile industry. What you see offered in numbers is what sells, minus minor adjustments due to lag between the customer base and the suppliers...typically about two years. I don't pretend to have a good handle on what the hobby needs, but I sure know what those paying want, and so do the solvent suppliers. So far, big steam seems to be pretty robust. Crandell
I know I harp on this niggling point, probably too much, but nobody reading here NEEDS anything remotely connected with this hobby. We WANT...oh how we WANT. And that drives the purchasing behaviour, as surely as it has done for the automobile industry. What you see offered in numbers is what sells, minus minor adjustments due to lag between the customer base and the suppliers...typically about two years.
I don't pretend to have a good handle on what the hobby needs, but I sure know what those paying want, and so do the solvent suppliers. So far, big steam seems to be pretty robust.
Crandell, we don't really know that because we don't know how many Big Boys Athearn, Rivarossi, MTH, and BLI have produced or sold vs how many 2-8-0's and 4-6-0's Bachmann has sold.
Could be Bachmann has sold way more of those, than all the Big boys put together two or three or ten times over? We just don't know.
While it is admittedly not possible to produce specific figures for the number of units actually sold, there can hardly be any question that an item like Bachmann's 2-8-0 has far out sold any combination of other manufacturer's Big Boys, or similar engines, in the past ten years. The Big Boys, et al, are all from companies well known to be producing limited runs and these are generally run only one time. These runs are so small that they usually sell out in a very short time, or may even be all pre-sold (i.e. indicative of very low production numbers).
Bachmann, certainly a larger company by a whole order of magnitude than its competitors, has produced run after run of their same item. And unquestionable in volumes far exceeding any of the other companies' runs by a minimum of several times over. These points cited above can leave little question that in the real world the on going demand for small steam far outdistances that for huge locomotives and many times over, as it always has in the hobby.
CNJ831
Bachmann makes a Spectrum 4-6-0 and M.B. Klein has them in stock for $189.
They also have a Spectrum 4-4-0 and a Spectrum 0-6-0t
Non Spectrum there is a 2-6-0, 2-6-2, and 0-6-0.
Enjoy
Paul
selector I know I harp on this niggling point, probably too much, but nobody reading here NEEDS anything remotely connected with this hobby. We WANT...oh how we WANT. And that drives the purchasing behaviour, as surely as it has done for the automobile industry. What you see offered in numbers is what sells, minus minor adjustments due to lag between the customer base and the suppliers...typically about two years. I don't pretend to have a good handle on what the hobby needs, but I sure know what those paying want, and so do the solvent suppliers. So far, big steam seems to be pretty robust. Crandell
Remember growing up as a boy, we always wanted MORE POWER. Bigger V8. That has not changed.
Even the kids today want bigger power. Macho stuff, on a 18 inch radius no doubt.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
The biggest mindlapse some people have regarding size Vs. cost, is that a big loco MUST be more expensive. I believe most people that thinks in that way are either noob´s or collectors....
I know that I´m willing to pay more for a steamer than a diesel. And I don´t demand that steam loco´s should be sold by the pound, like some Mfg´s might think, as they don´t make the small ones in the range I would like to see!
If some Mfg releases another UP Mallet, I for one, hope that their sales falls harder than a ton of bricks!
As Sheldon says; The market must be very saturated with those loco´s by now!
Swedish Custom painter and model maker. My Website:
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maxman ATLANTIC CENTRAL: BUT, these manufacturers should know by now that most of their customer base are NOT "casual buyers" but rather are people with some moderate to advanced level of interest in this hobby. Maxman, I must be unusual, because my price "top" for ANY loco is about $300 (remember all are DC only, no sound) and "size" not drive that. I will not pay $400 or $500 "just because" the loco is some big articulated or giant Northern. Size and price have little correlation in my fleet. None of this, of course, solves anything. The issue always seems to come down to "why don't the importers have produced what I want at a price I'm willing to pay?" And after reading all the responses, the reason always seems to be that most of them don't have a clue what their audience is and/or don't have a good business plan. Yet they (almost) all do the same thing. Maybe the question should not be "why don't they ?", but rather "why do they?".
ATLANTIC CENTRAL: BUT, these manufacturers should know by now that most of their customer base are NOT "casual buyers" but rather are people with some moderate to advanced level of interest in this hobby. Maxman, I must be unusual, because my price "top" for ANY loco is about $300 (remember all are DC only, no sound) and "size" not drive that. I will not pay $400 or $500 "just because" the loco is some big articulated or giant Northern. Size and price have little correlation in my fleet.
BUT, these manufacturers should know by now that most of their customer base are NOT "casual buyers" but rather are people with some moderate to advanced level of interest in this hobby.
Maxman, I must be unusual, because my price "top" for ANY loco is about $300 (remember all are DC only, no sound) and "size" not drive that. I will not pay $400 or $500 "just because" the loco is some big articulated or giant Northern.
Size and price have little correlation in my fleet.
None of this, of course, solves anything. The issue always seems to come down to "why don't the importers have produced what I want at a price I'm willing to pay?" And after reading all the responses, the reason always seems to be that most of them don't have a clue what their audience is and/or don't have a good business plan. Yet they (almost) all do the same thing. Maybe the question should not be "why don't they ?", but rather "why do they?".
I am surprised that Model Railroader Mag, the NMRA or some other organization doesn't do more surveys(have they done one?) about the hobby. MRMag, NMRA, Walthers, Athearn, BLI, Atlas, MTH, and many others have my contact info through warranty registration, subscriptions or just customer service. I want to say I've seen surveys done at a few train shows over the years. But that sure skews to those willing to spend time and money, just to go see.
Richard
ATLANTIC CENTRAL BUT, these manufacturers should know by now that most of their customer base are NOT "casual buyers" but rather are people with some moderate to advanced level of interest in this hobby. Maxman, I must be unusual, because my price "top" for ANY loco is about $300 (remember all are DC only, no sound) and "size" not drive that. I will not pay $400 or $500 "just because" the loco is some big articulated or giant Northern. Size and price have little correlation in my fleet.
By "casual buyer" I didn't mean any Tom, Dick, or Harry that happened to walk into a hobby shop. I sort of assumed that someone making a purchase has some interest in the hobby or wouldn't necessarily walk into the store in the first place. On the other hand there are a lot of real casual buyers that are buying the train as a holiday gift. And I think that Bachmann, for example, sells a lot of stuff to these real casual buyers. Why would they have their lower priced regular line of engines as well as the Spectrum models otherwise?
I understand that size and price have no correlation to your particular fleet, but I think that you have your vision of what your railroad is and anything outside of that realm has no interest to you. I would have to assume that if someone produced an engine that didn't fit your scheme you would not purchase it even if they were giving it away. Fair enough. But there was another thread going around for awhile that was titled something like "show us your fleet" or something similar. If we looked at what those folks had listed as their purchases there was not necessarily any rhyme nor reason for what they had other than an ability to pay for the purchases. Conspicious consumption in my opinion, but that's a separate issue. Anyway those folks have, in my opinion, more than moderate interest in the hobby. It's just not the way you or I might define the hobby.
And, no, you are not unusual with your top price point. I don't want to spend anywhere near that with sound and DCC. But I have my own prototype to follow which means I can automatically exclude a large portion of what is available.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Train Modeler: If we could compare brass to brass it might be more meaningful. Where do you draw the line between small and large? For example, I would consider a Pacific on the larger side of small and a Northern on the smaller side of large. Small steam interest may go up with the civil war celebrations coming up. Wouldn't a really good 4-4-0 based on the prototypes be nice? I've had to modify the Bachmann units for years now. Richard Richard, I disagree completely about comparing brass to brass. Most of the serious "operator" and "modeler" type modelers I know have both brass and plastic/diecast locos in some kind of mix. They paint those brass locos and run them. They buy them because it is only way or best way to get the prototypes they want - not because they are brass. Not everybody who owns a brass loco is a brass collector - see my previous comments about my fleet. Sheldon
Train Modeler: If we could compare brass to brass it might be more meaningful. Where do you draw the line between small and large? For example, I would consider a Pacific on the larger side of small and a Northern on the smaller side of large. Small steam interest may go up with the civil war celebrations coming up. Wouldn't a really good 4-4-0 based on the prototypes be nice? I've had to modify the Bachmann units for years now. Richard
If we could compare brass to brass it might be more meaningful. Where do you draw the line between small and large? For example, I would consider a Pacific on the larger side of small and a Northern on the smaller side of large. Small steam interest may go up with the civil war celebrations coming up. Wouldn't a really good 4-4-0 based on the prototypes be nice? I've had to modify the Bachmann units for years now.
Richard, I disagree completely about comparing brass to brass. Most of the serious "operator" and "modeler" type modelers I know have both brass and plastic/diecast locos in some kind of mix. They paint those brass locos and run them. They buy them because it is only way or best way to get the prototypes they want - not because they are brass. Not everybody who owns a brass loco is a brass collector - see my previous comments about my fleet.
Sheldon,
I too have brass and plastic too. But, I will pay more for brass, just because it's brass and I expect to. It also tends to be better for collection value--it better be or my wife will shoot me(LOL). When you do a sort by price on ebay, the brass is usually in the 3 to 4 digits and the plastic in the 2 to 3 digits.
I guess another way of saying it too, is that although a person is not a brass collector when they buy a brass locomotive they probably realize they are playing in that universe where the prices are driven up many times by the people who are.
Again, I agree that we need more small steam.
Train Modeler If we could compare brass to brass it might be more meaningful. Where do you draw the line between small and large? For example, I would consider a Pacific on the larger side of small and a Northern on the smaller side of large. Small steam interest may go up with the civil war celebrations coming up. Wouldn't a really good 4-4-0 based on the prototypes be nice? I've had to modify the Bachmann units for years now. Richard