andrechapelon Did you ever find it interesting that Life Like never did a Proto2000 F unit while they owned Proto? Life like also saw the wisdom of leaving the F unit business to Athearn and Stewart. Only after Walthers ownership - Walthers who after years of being a key distributor for Athearn and MDC, gave both of them the short shaft in catalog presentation after they bought TrainMinature and had their own line of shake the box kits to promote. So Athearn got smart, went to self distribution, left Walthers without F units for their fancy new passenger cars. Presto - we get yest another EMD F unit. In Walthers defense, Sheldon, Horizon bought both Athearn and MDC and, being a hobby distributor, are in direct competition with Walthers. Quite frankly, I think it's kinda stupid that Walthers brought out their own line of F's when they could have bought them elsewhere or even come to some kind of arrangement with Horizon to supply their needs, but then I'm not the one running the companies in question. Not all business decisions are rational. I do notice that Athearn hasn't tried to "Genesize" their PA's or come out with a line of E units, so maybe there's some rationality somewhere. Andre
Did you ever find it interesting that Life Like never did a Proto2000 F unit while they owned Proto? Life like also saw the wisdom of leaving the F unit business to Athearn and Stewart. Only after Walthers ownership - Walthers who after years of being a key distributor for Athearn and MDC, gave both of them the short shaft in catalog presentation after they bought TrainMinature and had their own line of shake the box kits to promote. So Athearn got smart, went to self distribution, left Walthers without F units for their fancy new passenger cars. Presto - we get yest another EMD F unit.
In Walthers defense, Sheldon, Horizon bought both Athearn and MDC and, being a hobby distributor, are in direct competition with Walthers. Quite frankly, I think it's kinda stupid that Walthers brought out their own line of F's when they could have bought them elsewhere or even come to some kind of arrangement with Horizon to supply their needs, but then I'm not the one running the companies in question. Not all business decisions are rational.
I do notice that Athearn hasn't tried to "Genesize" their PA's or come out with a line of E units, so maybe there's some rationality somewhere.
Andre
Andre, I know and agree. But Walthers too is both a manufcturer and a distributor. My point is that Walthers finally had done to them, what they had done to many other companies. Walthers spent years buying up little guys and controling the source of supply. Horizion returned the favor - with two of the biggest names in the business. And while there are lots of competing models out there, Athearn still does not appear in a rush to compete with established existing product - Like Proto PA's or E units.
And while it is a seperate topic, it is all also linked to the move toward self distribution by manufacturers and the slow death of "wholesale distribution" like we knew it in the old days.
Sheldon
Paul3 Sheldon,AFAIK, GSB announced the SD40 project and had all kinds of trouble getting it out the door. Lots of delays. I'd have to ask Andy Harmon just how long the delays were, but from what I've heard, they were significant. Athearn was and still is pretty good about keeping things secret, but I can't help but to think they saw an opportunity to wipe out a budding competitor and so produced the SD40 in reaction to the GSB announcement rather than mere coincedence. BTW, did you forget about the 1970's Atlas FP7? The 1980's Stewart F's? Or the Cary F's? And there was a slew of trainset-type junk from everyone from Revell to Fleischmann to Bachmann. These were not all in competition with each other, that is true. But in their own classes, they did. One other question for you: While we don't know the sales numbers for anything, Bachmann knows their own numbers, one would assume. If the 2-8-0 is such a moneymaker as you and the other small steam mafia say (that's a joke...), then why hasn't Bachmann tried to duplicate it with another simular design? Why not a simularly inexpensive & generic 4-6-0, 0-6-0, or 2-6-0? Or a 4-4-2 or 4-4-0? Sure, Bachmann has made some of these smaller engines, but they aren't like the 2-8-0 nor are they priced like it. Why? If the 2-8-0 has sold more than all the Big Boys combined (as someone else has said), why aren't there more like that from Bachmann? Paul A. Cutler III
Sheldon,AFAIK, GSB announced the SD40 project and had all kinds of trouble getting it out the door. Lots of delays. I'd have to ask Andy Harmon just how long the delays were, but from what I've heard, they were significant. Athearn was and still is pretty good about keeping things secret, but I can't help but to think they saw an opportunity to wipe out a budding competitor and so produced the SD40 in reaction to the GSB announcement rather than mere coincedence.
BTW, did you forget about the 1970's Atlas FP7? The 1980's Stewart F's? Or the Cary F's? And there was a slew of trainset-type junk from everyone from Revell to Fleischmann to Bachmann. These were not all in competition with each other, that is true. But in their own classes, they did.
One other question for you: While we don't know the sales numbers for anything, Bachmann knows their own numbers, one would assume. If the 2-8-0 is such a moneymaker as you and the other small steam mafia say (that's a joke...), then why hasn't Bachmann tried to duplicate it with another simular design? Why not a simularly inexpensive & generic 4-6-0, 0-6-0, or 2-6-0? Or a 4-4-2 or 4-4-0? Sure, Bachmann has made some of these smaller engines, but they aren't like the 2-8-0 nor are they priced like it. Why? If the 2-8-0 has sold more than all the Big Boys combined (as someone else has said), why aren't there more like that from Bachmann?
Paul A. Cutler III
Paul,
First, an FP7 does compete with F7's, it'sa different loco and that was the first time it had ever been offered other than brass. And even now there are only two of those on the market - Genesis and Intermountain - Mine are Intermountain because they are available as undecorated kits.
I don't know what really happened regarding the SD40 - I don't care. But given the direction Athearn was on at the time, I suspect is was comming with or without GSB.
Stewart? well that was the late 80's, after I was out of that business, and, as I did indicate, that's when things started to change in general.
Cary? Buy the late 70's all the modelers I knew where putting can motors, diesel dress up kits, and GSB interiors in/on Athearn F's. Very few still messed with Hobbytown or Cary.
Paul you miss the point completely - I'm not saying there should not be any competittion on a given item, I just think it is likely to be bad business to be the third, forth or fifth guy making the same thing.
Even back then, Athearn and MDC both made 40' steel box cars - so what? They did not spend every minute and every product developement dollar tring to run each other out of business, they worked to expand the market. And there is STILL plenty of room to expand the market.
More thoughts of Funits - BLI/PCM, they were just a one time flash in the pan. Where are they now? MTH - not for me. Athearn, Stewart and Intermountain seem to have that mostly covered. The new Proto, even though I have one set, it will be the only set I buy, and I generally like Proto. But Walthers messed up, with the gear ratio thing and the lack of undecorated bodies for all the variations/phases. If you buy the Proto version undecorated, you get the stupid 1960's shell with the skirts removed. I saw that and said no thank you. I bough one set in C&O, they are OK, but from here on out it's Intermountain or Genesis for any more F units.
Sure, Bachmann has made some of these smaller engines, but they aren't like the 2-8-0 nor are they priced like it. Why? If the 2-8-0 has sold more than all the Big Boys combined (as someone else has said), why aren't there more like that from Bachmann?
Maybe part of the reason is that Bachmann is into multiple scales (Fn3, On2.5, HO and N not to mention they now own the Williams line of 3 rail O gauge). They also make a broad range of OO scale offerings for the British Market as well as HO scale for the Chinese market and they also own the former Liliput line which produced German and Austrian based models in HO. Did I mention they also absorbed the Graham Farish line of N scale models? http://www.bachmann.co.uk/avail.php Quite frankly, I think Bachmann can be excused for thinking of the US HO market as a business segment in a broader international market rather than their primary business. You should rummage around the Bachmann UK site a while and see just what it is they offer. It's kinda mind boggling.
With the kind of market presence Bachmann has internationally, they have to take on new product development in a judicious and disciplined manner. After all, they did release the N scale version of the HO scale 4-6-0 just recently and it wouldn't surprise me if they did the Russian Decapod in N next.
blownout cylinder ATLANTIC CENTRAL: blownout cylinder: Well, we are using ABS tubing for our boilers...weighted, of course... But the frames we are going to be making are out of a steel/aluminum alloy material... ...all these being done through cnc milling... Brass wires, all sorts of fun stuff...heeheehee And we are patiently waiting, especially since you might be our best hope. Sheldon I've been scanning some of Andre's sites he comes up with... It might be an idea to toss out a question now then... What would you like to see in a kit in the first place? We have in mind a kit that has the 'prototype' photo of the locomotive in question..as well as a small booklet of information about it. We have a kit that will probably fit a out maybe 2-3 different versions of said chassis....go from there...
ATLANTIC CENTRAL: blownout cylinder: Well, we are using ABS tubing for our boilers...weighted, of course... But the frames we are going to be making are out of a steel/aluminum alloy material... ...all these being done through cnc milling... Brass wires, all sorts of fun stuff...heeheehee And we are patiently waiting, especially since you might be our best hope. Sheldon
blownout cylinder: Well, we are using ABS tubing for our boilers...weighted, of course... But the frames we are going to be making are out of a steel/aluminum alloy material... ...all these being done through cnc milling... Brass wires, all sorts of fun stuff...heeheehee
Well, we are using ABS tubing for our boilers...weighted, of course...
But the frames we are going to be making are out of a steel/aluminum alloy material...
...all these being done through cnc milling... Brass wires, all sorts of fun stuff...heeheehee
And we are patiently waiting, especially since you might be our best hope.
I've been scanning some of Andre's sites he comes up with...
It might be an idea to toss out a question now then...
What would you like to see in a kit in the first place?
We have in mind a kit that has the 'prototype' photo of the locomotive in question..as well as a small booklet of information about it. We have a kit that will probably fit a out maybe 2-3 different versions of said chassis....go from there...
It's not just a case of what we'd like, Barry. It's also a case of what will give you some manufacturing flexibility. I was taking a look at some of the specs for CPR 4-6-2's and a couple of things really stand out. ALL the various classes of classes G-1 through G-5 have a rigid wheel base of right around 13 feet regardless of driver diameter (either 70" or 75"). The engine wheel bases vary by less that 1.5 feet for all classes with the max being 35 feet. In HO scale, you could use the same chassis for all classes of CPR 4-6-2's. But wait, there's more.
The rigid wheel base of a Harriman Heavy 4-6-2 is 13.33 feet. The overall engine wheelbase is 35.67 feet. Near as I can figure, that's less than 1/10 of an inch in HO scale. Furthermore, the 75" drivers of the CPR engines are so close to the 77" of the Harriman that the difference is nearly invisible to the naked eye in HO scale. And if you wanted to add a Harriman light to your arsenal (now being the mfgr known as "The Pacific Dude"), the overall engine wheelbase is 33.33 feet.
A lot of this is more art than engineering. If the thing looks right, it is right even if there are some variances from true 1/87.1 scale. It's done all the time. Drivers are less than prototype to be able to use prototype wheel base or wheel base expanded (with some proportionate changes made to boiler) to use scale size drivers. The Bachmann Spectrum USRA 4-8-2's use 64" drivers rather than the correct 69" drivers. They look right, which is the important factor.
I have an idea.... why don't we work out the details of a conversion kit... something along the lines of sawing a Big Boy in half and getting.... uh... well, I'm not really sure. But I do like the idea of sawing the Big Boy in half, so that's a start at least. Maybe after we saw up enough of them the answer will come to us...
Of course, you could always just saw it in half length-ways and then you'd have TWO Big Boys, which would work great as long as you only run them in one direction on the layout. But that could work too-- you'd have one for coming and one for going, and you wouldn't have to turn them around at the ends...
John
ATLANTIC CENTRAL blownout cylinder: Well, we are using ABS tubing for our boilers...weighted, of course... But the frames we are going to be making are out of a steel/aluminum alloy material... ...all these being done through cnc milling... Brass wires, all sorts of fun stuff...heeheehee And we are patiently waiting, especially since you might be our best hope. Sheldon
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
blownout cylinder Well, we are using ABS tubing for our boilers...weighted, of course... But the frames we are going to be making are out of a steel/aluminum alloy material... ...all these being done through cnc milling... Brass wires, all sorts of fun stuff...heeheehee
Forty Niner Hey Sheldon, I've got a complaint about them. They're too frigging expensive!!!! And what's with still using the old "pot metal" boilers on the 2-8-2 and the 4-6-2??? Those 2 engines are just the ticket for kitbashing in their new form but not at the prices they want for them. And how about going to plastic boilers with a weight installed instead of the pot metal? Like working on an old Varney or something. I've broken more little drills working on pot metal than most anything else. That 4-6-2 would work great for the ones you want for your railroad "if".....but at the prices they want for them a person would end up with well over $200 in each one and as you already know you can find older brass ones for that money. So, there's a complaint for you about the old Mantua/Model Power, on the other hand, that little Sierra #38 they make is perfect for kitbashing. Mark
Hey Sheldon, I've got a complaint about them. They're too frigging expensive!!!! And what's with still using the old "pot metal" boilers on the 2-8-2 and the 4-6-2??? Those 2 engines are just the ticket for kitbashing in their new form but not at the prices they want for them. And how about going to plastic boilers with a weight installed instead of the pot metal? Like working on an old Varney or something. I've broken more little drills working on pot metal than most anything else.
That 4-6-2 would work great for the ones you want for your railroad "if".....but at the prices they want for them a person would end up with well over $200 in each one and as you already know you can find older brass ones for that money.
So, there's a complaint for you about the old Mantua/Model Power, on the other hand, that little Sierra #38 they make is perfect for kitbashing.
Mark
Well Mark, I have to agree that even at the $120-$150 street prices I see on them, I'm not buying them, stripping them down, and adding a box of Cal Scale either. But I was of course refering to "factory defect complaints".
I considered that option back when Mantua themselves upgraded to can motors and such, ruled it out then too. I do the same thing, watch for brass Pacific bargins - until somebody makes sometihng nice.
In fact, two of my three Pacifics are my only brass, now with nice Bachmann tenders!
John W has 7 Bachmann 2-8-0's, I have 8, several others have noted they have a few, seems like maybe lots of modelers do aquire small "work a day" locomotives "by the six pack". Does anybody know anybody with six Big Boys? I don't know anybody who does.
But I have eight 2-8-0's, eight 2-8-2's, nine 4-8-2's, three 4-6-2's, etc.
GN_mountain_goat Sheldon - Thank you for the summary and your description; it is very informative and will help me along the way. With so many manufacturers to choose from; it is good to get some feedback from experienced hobbyists. I am working on DC and not DCC base on cost but also, based upon my limited electrical knowledge; as I understand, there is a lot of extra wiring needed with the tracks and turnouts etc., which I find intimidating for where I am right now. Sound is fine, but not something I am going out of my way to locate. I'm looking to do GN layout during the transition from steam to diesel, looking around the late 40s-50s, which allows me a lot of play with engines. Thanks again! Matt. PS - what's the word on Mantua products?
Sheldon -
Thank you for the summary and your description; it is very informative and will help me along the way. With so many manufacturers to choose from; it is good to get some feedback from experienced hobbyists.
I am working on DC and not DCC base on cost but also, based upon my limited electrical knowledge; as I understand, there is a lot of extra wiring needed with the tracks and turnouts etc., which I find intimidating for where I am right now. Sound is fine, but not something I am going out of my way to locate. I'm looking to do GN layout during the transition from steam to diesel, looking around the late 40s-50s, which allows me a lot of play with engines.
Thanks again!
Matt.
PS - what's the word on Mantua products?
Matt,
Mantua, now made by Model Power, is an old line of die cast locos. They have been updated electricly, but detail is not much different from their introduction in the 50's - pretty spartan. Also, they are all freelanced models, none are acurate models for the roadnames offered.
Don't know much about the build quality of the newest ones, but I have not heard and complaints.
Paul3 Sheldon,Ask GSB if they suffered from any "one upsmanship" when Uncle Irv produced the SD40 before they could and blew them out of the water. And how many RS-3's came out in the 1980's? Stewart, Atlas, MDC... I'd say there was a little competition there. And how many F-units were being made back then? The real issue back then was for two simple reasons: 1). There wasn't that much stuff out there to be in competition with since a company like Atlas or Athearn may come out with 1 new loco per year...or every 2 years, and 2). there wasn't too much chance of any overlap as there were large gaps in models available. A manufacturer could throw a dart at a list of diesels and the odds of them hitting a loco that had been done already was pretty remote. Not so these days, with even oddball diesels getting multiple runs like DL109's, C-Liners and U18B's. Paul A. Cutler III
Sheldon,Ask GSB if they suffered from any "one upsmanship" when Uncle Irv produced the SD40 before they could and blew them out of the water. And how many RS-3's came out in the 1980's? Stewart, Atlas, MDC... I'd say there was a little competition there. And how many F-units were being made back then?
The real issue back then was for two simple reasons: 1). There wasn't that much stuff out there to be in competition with since a company like Atlas or Athearn may come out with 1 new loco per year...or every 2 years, and 2). there wasn't too much chance of any overlap as there were large gaps in models available. A manufacturer could throw a dart at a list of diesels and the odds of them hitting a loco that had been done already was pretty remote. Not so these days, with even oddball diesels getting multiple runs like DL109's, C-Liners and U18B's.
Paul, First, we will never know if Athearn was already planning the SD40 when GSB tried to do theirs, Athearn has always been good at keeping secrets. And pointing to one example is nothing like what goes on today between MTH, BLI and others. As for F units, you had Athearn, and a bunch of train set junk, that's it. Even then that would have been like comparing Bachmann's current $35 F units to a $150 Genesis F unit - two different markets.
And yes, it started to change in the 80's, but niether Bachmann or Athearn lead the charge then either. Atlas and Kato were the "new kids" in that part of the market and they chose to bring out stuff in competition with each other.
I was there, running a train department.
CNJ831 ATLANTIC CENTRAL: selector: I know I harp on this niggling point, probably too much, but nobody reading here NEEDS anything remotely connected with this hobby. We WANT...oh how we WANT. And that drives the purchasing behaviour, as surely as it has done for the automobile industry. What you see offered in numbers is what sells, minus minor adjustments due to lag between the customer base and the suppliers...typically about two years. I don't pretend to have a good handle on what the hobby needs, but I sure know what those paying want, and so do the solvent suppliers. So far, big steam seems to be pretty robust. Crandell Crandell, we don't really know that because we don't know how many Big Boys Athearn, Rivarossi, MTH, and BLI have produced or sold vs how many 2-8-0's and 4-6-0's Bachmann has sold. Could be Bachmann has sold way more of those, than all the Big boys put together two or three or ten times over? We just don't know. Sheldon While it is admittedly not possible to produce specific figures for the number of units actually sold, there can hardly be any question that an item like Bachmann's 2-8-0 has far out sold any combination of other manufacturer's Big Boys, or similar engines, in the past ten years. The Big Boys, et al, are all from companies well known to be producing limited runs and these are generally run only one time. These runs are so small that they usually sell out in a very short time, or may even be all pre-sold (i.e. indicative of very low production numbers). Bachmann, certainly a larger company by a whole order of magnitude than its competitors, has produced run after run of their same item. And unquestionable in volumes far exceeding any of the other companies' runs by a minimum of several times over. These points cited above can leave little question that in the real world the on going demand for small steam far outdistances that for huge locomotives and many times over, as it always has in the hobby. CNJ831
ATLANTIC CENTRAL: selector: I know I harp on this niggling point, probably too much, but nobody reading here NEEDS anything remotely connected with this hobby. We WANT...oh how we WANT. And that drives the purchasing behaviour, as surely as it has done for the automobile industry. What you see offered in numbers is what sells, minus minor adjustments due to lag between the customer base and the suppliers...typically about two years. I don't pretend to have a good handle on what the hobby needs, but I sure know what those paying want, and so do the solvent suppliers. So far, big steam seems to be pretty robust. Crandell Crandell, we don't really know that because we don't know how many Big Boys Athearn, Rivarossi, MTH, and BLI have produced or sold vs how many 2-8-0's and 4-6-0's Bachmann has sold. Could be Bachmann has sold way more of those, than all the Big boys put together two or three or ten times over? We just don't know. Sheldon
selector: I know I harp on this niggling point, probably too much, but nobody reading here NEEDS anything remotely connected with this hobby. We WANT...oh how we WANT. And that drives the purchasing behaviour, as surely as it has done for the automobile industry. What you see offered in numbers is what sells, minus minor adjustments due to lag between the customer base and the suppliers...typically about two years. I don't pretend to have a good handle on what the hobby needs, but I sure know what those paying want, and so do the solvent suppliers. So far, big steam seems to be pretty robust. Crandell
I know I harp on this niggling point, probably too much, but nobody reading here NEEDS anything remotely connected with this hobby. We WANT...oh how we WANT. And that drives the purchasing behaviour, as surely as it has done for the automobile industry. What you see offered in numbers is what sells, minus minor adjustments due to lag between the customer base and the suppliers...typically about two years.
I don't pretend to have a good handle on what the hobby needs, but I sure know what those paying want, and so do the solvent suppliers. So far, big steam seems to be pretty robust.
Crandell
Crandell, we don't really know that because we don't know how many Big Boys Athearn, Rivarossi, MTH, and BLI have produced or sold vs how many 2-8-0's and 4-6-0's Bachmann has sold.
Could be Bachmann has sold way more of those, than all the Big boys put together two or three or ten times over? We just don't know.
While it is admittedly not possible to produce specific figures for the number of units actually sold, there can hardly be any question that an item like Bachmann's 2-8-0 has far out sold any combination of other manufacturer's Big Boys, or similar engines, in the past ten years. The Big Boys, et al, are all from companies well known to be producing limited runs and these are generally run only one time. These runs are so small that they usually sell out in a very short time, or may even be all pre-sold (i.e. indicative of very low production numbers).
Bachmann, certainly a larger company by a whole order of magnitude than its competitors, has produced run after run of their same item. And unquestionable in volumes far exceeding any of the other companies' runs by a minimum of several times over. These points cited above can leave little question that in the real world the on going demand for small steam far outdistances that for huge locomotives and many times over, as it always has in the hobby.
CNJ831
I agree. I have six of the Bachmann 2-8-0's-- actually seven, come to think of it-- just bought one recently and haven't unwrapped it yet--- but when I get ramped-up and further along on my layout (like getting track down) I would eventually like to have a whole fleet of them. I wish there were more Pennsy small steam out there in plastic. I can't (won't) afford brass and it sure would be nice to have say some H10's on the layout.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Atlas - very good drive design and high build quality. They are a little more expenisve and production is more limited - get them when you can if they make models you want. Kato - mainly an N scale company , but equal to Atlas on all points. Feel free to ask more questions, I'm sure you will get lots of opinions - many will be different from mine. Sheldon
Atlas - very good drive design and high build quality. They are a little more expenisve and production is more limited - get them when you can if they make models you want.
Kato - mainly an N scale company , but equal to Atlas on all points.
Feel free to ask more questions, I'm sure you will get lots of opinions - many will be different from mine.
The current Atlas drive is a copy of the Kato drive system. Atlas contracted Kato in the early 1980s to make HO diesels, RS3 was first. This unit set a standard for performance that still holds up today. I recently purchased an older Atlas/Kato yellow box GP7. Put a decoder in it, and is now pretty much the best runner I have. Later on Atlas moved production to China, but closely copied the Kato drive. Most of the drive parts interchange between the Japan and China engines.
Mike WSOR engineer | HO scale since 1988 | Visit our club www.WCGandyDancers.com
You will get lots of different opinions on quality, for several reasons. First no matter how well built a loco model is, some will judge it as "low quality" if the detail is not up to their very high standards. And others are not happy if locos have too much "fragile" detail.
Others will go only by a few bad experiances they have had and condem a whole product line because they got the one dud - sometimes a dud from 15 years ago keeps some poeple from considering a brand, even when ohers have expressed great success with that brands newer products.
Another imortant point is that not every product from a given company is always their best effort. Product A from company #1 might be a dud, and all their other stuff is great, OR most of comapny #2's products might just be so so, but product C is top notch.
I will give you some of my thoughts by brand.
Bachmann - years ago was just train set junk, but that was 30 years ago! Today their Spectrum and newer Regular line products are very good and affordable. Much of the regular line is not "high" or "fine" detail, but the newest offerings are still very nice. The Spectrum line, especially the steam locos, are mostly very good, but it does very a little from model to model. Basicly, over the last 15-20 years thier products have gotten better and better with each new release. Their defect rate use to be a little high, is better now, but they have a great warranty in any case.
Athearn - one of the oldest and best, BUT, slow to change their ways and not always going after the high detail market either. They have two seperate HO lines, Genesis is their "high detail" line and Ready to Roll is more medium detail and moderate cost - but again it can very a lot for item to item - overall build quality is good.
Proto2000 - now part of Walthers, this company pioneered the high detail plastic diesel loco wihle Bachmann went after that market in steam. They have a glitch now and then but are very good as well. The few steamers they have are excelent runners, if not always good pullers.
Broadway Limited - fairly new company, about 10 years now, has had some problems but overall make very nice models and have good service. Some early diesels lacked detail, always limited productionr runs, prices very volital.
MTH - new to HO, took over some tooling from some other companies - that's too long a story - has more of a collector or toy approach to detail and features in my view.
Intermountain - limited selection of specific diesels, but very good in detail and operation.
Bowser/Stewart - similar to Intermountain and Proto, many will tell you the Stewart drives are the best in the hobby.
A few other thoughts: Do you like sound? Do you want DCC? and sound? This greatly effects prices and brand choices.
I don't use DCC or sound so I lean heavily to the companies that offer DC versions and stay away from BLI and MTH who cannot seem to decide if they want to sell models to DC operators or not.
I have lots of Proto, Bachmann, Athearn and Intermountain, a little bit of BLI (from earlier DC offerings or bought cheap and DCC/sound now removed). No MTH, Atlas or Kato because I model a specific time and locale and few of their offerings fit that theme.
jwhitten selector: I know I harp on this niggling point, probably too much, but nobody reading here NEEDS anything remotely connected with this hobby. We WANT...oh how we WANT. I don't know about that Crandell.... I think some folks are downright addicts.... where do you think the term "Mainlining" came from anyway??? John
selector: I know I harp on this niggling point, probably too much, but nobody reading here NEEDS anything remotely connected with this hobby. We WANT...oh how we WANT.
I know I harp on this niggling point, probably too much, but nobody reading here NEEDS anything remotely connected with this hobby. We WANT...oh how we WANT.
I don't know about that Crandell.... I think some folks are downright addicts.... where do you think the term "Mainlining" came from anyway???
I think you let off a 'steamer' here....
No, Crandell, may I be so bold as to suggest that I could be accused of being 'anti-large steam'!! lol!!
If for the only reason that my great northern plains rr simply cannot support such an one as a Challenger et al!! Reason? My rails are secondary/short line stuff here...
It is an interesting thing that there is this interest in smaller and medium sized steamers...hopefully...when we get going on producing some of these...
selector I know I harp on this niggling point, probably too much, but nobody reading here NEEDS anything remotely connected with this hobby. We WANT...oh how we WANT.
A chockful of information for an HO newbie to digest, but, it brings be to ask about quality - are the Bachman and Athern and widely manufactured engines of good quality and reliable on detail and design? I have noticed the pricing difference between the companies and have wondered if the items follow "you get what you pay for" or, that the other items are just over priced?
DOes that make sense?
Matt
Then, I slipped a few weeks later and asked the guys if they think BLI is due for a Yellowstone.
I believe a few lines from the movie "The Great Race" are appropriate here:
Prince Hapnick: You! You're the cause of it all! It was your idea! General: No, no your highness... Baron von Schtupp Prince Hapnik: I don't care, I don't care! You're banished. I'm getting a new tucker-inner! Banished, banished, banished!
OR, if you want want to see how this thread can end up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0BOOgW7rHE
The above lines are about 3:25 seconds in.
One other thought that has been on my mind since I started this thread - what is "small" and what is "large"?
Well, I think we need a "medium" catagory as well.
I will define what I feel is Medium - the other two should be selve explainatory from there.
"Medium sized Steam"
2-8-2, 4-8-2, 2-8-4, 4-6-2 and 4-6-4
Hard to put in a size class - 2-10-0 and 2-10-2, some are small, some clearly medium, some pretty big.
This medium size group is not really much better represented than the smaller locos, except for a few "specific" prototpyes.
And, this may be where the manufacturers could make the easiest and fastest inroads into some new untapped markets.
Lee are you listening?
Crandell,
Just to be clear, I'm not anti "big locomotive", I do have my share of them as well. But my point has always been two fold - why do we need four or five "different" Big Boys as opposed to one or two Big Boys and three or four other choices, and we need more representation of small and MEDIUM sized "work a day" locos that moved America from 1890 to 1950.
In the old days we never had this cut throat, one upsmanship kind of competitiion. Athearn did more modern, Roundhouse did old time, you could count the overlap on your left hand, and TrainMinature filled in the center. It is clear that Athearn and Bachmann still make some effort to avoid too much overlap with competitors. But BLI and MTH seem determined to out do each other on many of the same items and in the case of MTH, he wants to step on Athearn the same way - I do think he is biting off more than he can chew.
And, if BLI was "doing so good" from a profit standpoint, then by now they should be established enough to invest in some long term inventory/product offerings and not still be "preorder" and "closeout" driven. I don't think its working at all, I think they are struggling and Athearn and Bachmann are kicking their butt. As for MTH, he did well enough in other scales to dump some money in HO and see what happens. And it is clear he has made some big ajustments from is initial view of the HO market.
But what do I know, I'm just a guy who spent 8 years selling trains.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Maxman, ...I think Andre maks a good point, we need to to both support and lobby Bachmann to do more of what they have done so far. Now i'm even more determined to be on my way to the train store for some more 2-8-0's. Sheldon
Maxman,
...I think Andre maks a good point, we need to to both support and lobby Bachmann to do more of what they have done so far. Now i'm even more determined to be on my way to the train store for some more 2-8-0's.
For what it is worth, Sheldon, I have been trying to help the small-wishers out. Even on the BLI forum I have been asking them to consider breaking into the Harriman Pacific or some other market to help out. They would make a killing. Then, I slipped a few weeks later and asked the guys if they think BLI is due for a Yellowstone.
And here is another point often forgotten - there were a fair number of "famous" small to medium sized locos, few of which have been recently represented in brass or plastic/diecast.
I'll even concede to the PRR thing a bit, E-6, G-5, L-1, H-9 and all their cousins - fact is even PRR modelers don't have a very "well rounded" selection of steam. In the scheme of railroad history, I would consider an E-6 just as important as a Big Boy.
How about those B&O Presidents BLI never did? I think they shot themselves in the foot my not offering undecorated and modernized versions in their "perorder" announcenment. While I would not have preordered, that would have made me a big potential customer.
How about Southern Ps4? I'll bet anyone could easily sell 5,000 or 10,000 of them. How about the "Casey Jones" ten wheeler?
Bowser could not sell their versions because they were not up to current standards of detail and kits are not so popular any more - but that does not mean interest in those prototypes is dead.