I would still contender that manufacturers will win over.
COnsumers can only vote so much with their $$$. ANd lately consumers have been "demanding" Big boys and large steamers that the manufacturers are all to ahppy to produce for those who will buy them at their higher prices. We have a scandanavian modeler on here who bought 25 Big Boys, simply to Have them simply becasue 25 was the real number of BigBoys produced in real life.
We will end up buying what manufacturers produce, or we will not buy anything and suffer ourselves, or take old stuff that many complained was crap and less detailed and buy it off ebay to rework.
Someone who speaks chinese well, can gather statistical facts that are acurate for potential sales/profits, and can travel to a chinese model train manufacturer and present the facts may get teh manufacturer to answer teh USA public's demands. But there are to many IFs in taht statement.
The manufacturers HAVE tested teh waters to see about answering our demands. In the form of: pre-orders for certain locos with potential delivery dates. SInce they don't get the pre-orders we all hate so much, they don't produce and our demands are not met, and may not be for the next loco we "demand". And we have proven we are having none of that blind pre-order or advanced reservation stuff. MAybe eventually manufacturers will get it that we don't wnat to do business that way, that we want product delivered in a timely fashion and on the shelves in sufficient quantities to satiate our desires, but until then and in a model we wil run on our railroads, we have to do it their way.
Like cars, we WILL eventually buy what the auto manufacturers build when we need a new car, regardless of whether it's what we demand or not. Or we will buy old cars to fix up, or we will buy no car and suffer public transportation. SOme cars like the retro camaros or Mustangs may be available on a limited basis, so if you want one, you will pay the price they demand and take what you can get throuhg your local dealer, or pre-orde to guarantee your delivery, probably AT or ABOVE MSRP.
LIke Crandell has said NOTHING produced for this hobby is a need, it is ALL wants. We cannot eat our trains and we can't get much heat throwing a big boy into the fireplace, and we wouldn't wear our trains out in public for warmth. I really do have more locos than I need, and have said next Christmas "no trains" but I said that the last 2 Christmases as well, and have added to my loco roster, by 4 locos this year alone.
And it is amazing what people wil buy during recessions and what tehy are willing to pay for it. Like I said Suzie's Cupcakes can sell a single 50 cent "gourmet" cupcake for $5 and have a great demand for it, and rake in profits. and train manufacturers can sell big boys at high prices during a recession.
Now if only I can come up with something people want and dont need in a recession that is cheap to produce, but will sell for a high MSRP, I would be a rich man.
Now, Anyone wanna pre-order and put down a down payment on my sometime-in-the-future-to-be-produced-and-released 2-6-2?
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
After all this conversation it should be clear that resistance is futile. The only answer is to bite the bullet, throw in the towel and model Pennsy. A whole world of abundance will open to you. Probably every PRR loco ever rostered, at least for the past century, is available in some form and priced from cheap to wowser! Come out of the shadows and into the light. Start modeling Pennsy tonight!
Atlantic Central,
My memory isn't perfect, but I am fairly certain I had a Bachmann 2-8-0 in the '70s. Perhaps I rounded up to "40 years", but if I missed it by 10, does it really matter to the discussion at hand? I also stated that the Bachmann / Spectrum 2-8-0 has been around (a long number of years) in ONE FORM OR ANOTHER. My meaning behind that was the Company was building a 2-8-0 for a very long time. I had two of the Bachmanns that I eventually sold, and traded up to 3 Spectrums of which I currently have two.
I did not mean to convey a problem with quality in either them or the older AHMs (which I had quite a few). FOR THE TIMES, you got a really good loco for the money. Those older ones if put out today would just not match the quality of what so many of us expect for today's production.
On, while I never got to work in a hobby shop, I've been a steady patron of them since 1957.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
tpatrick After all this conversation it should be clear that resistance is futile. The only answer is to bite the bullet, throw in the towel and model Pennsy. A whole world of abundance will open to you. Probably every PRR loco ever rostered, at least for the past century, is available in some form and priced from cheap to wowser! Come out of the shadows and into the light. Start modeling Pennsy tonight!
Right after they pry my gun from my cold dead hands.
Sheldon
Why? Pennsy, founded in 1846, disappeared over 40 years ago in the Penn Central merger. Union Pacific, OTOH, has existed continuously for 148 years and some months. Of all the class 1's, it's the only one that still exists with its corporate identity intact. The rest of them have disappeared as the result of mergers and aquisitions. You can legitimately model the UP from the 1860's to the present day. You can't say that for Pennsy or any other erstwhile class 1 for that matter.
As for locomotives, you can claim the same the same thing for the UP, especially since Pennsy's acquisition of new power ceased with its disappearance into Penn Central.
If the point is to outwit, outplay and outlast, UP wins hands down. UP survives, Pennsy hasn't been on the island for years.
Andre
As was stated a few posts back, I think by galaxy, the fact is that there is a give and take in the hobby. The importers do have to make a buck, and they need us to supply the buck. But who is doing that? Somebody is speaking with his wallet big time out there. BLI has surely sold out the second (different) model of the UP 9000's to be produced inside of two years. BLI just put up a series of photos of their painted model. Trainworld doesn't have any Rivarossi BB's left....not a one at their bargain basement prices? Why is that? The second run of BLI's Q2's is all but spoken for, and try to find a Paragon2 Y6b at a substantially discounted price...that isn't on eBay.
I do most emphatically agree that if we, as a group, get really loud and snarky about more choices, but mostly if the larger Pennsy/UP/SP/N&W/C&O stuff begins to gather a thick layer of dust, the importers are sure to hustle just a bit to get the sales ringing once again.
Talk's cheap. We do a ton of it here most days. But the importers let the sales to the speaking for the hobby as a whole.
Crandell
selectorI don't pretend to have a good handle on what the hobby needs, but I sure know what those paying want, and so do the solvent suppliers. So far, big steam seems to be pretty robust.
And that appears to go for big diesels as well, Crandell. Just look at the Centipede offering by BLI. I think it's been out less than 6 months now and they went like hot cakes! So much so that BLI already has a scheduled 3rd run due out for release in Spring of '11.
Personally, I think the Centipedes are ungainly and awkward-looking beasts. Lash two together and you have over 183' of locomotive. (2.1'+ in HO) Even if it had a NYC herald pasted across its nose, I still wouldn't own one.
Just like in life, people seem to naturally gravitate towards the impressive - i.e. the "Texas-mindset" phenomenon: If it's bigger; it's got to be better! Although the bigger locomotives may have been the "bread 'n butter" of the RRs, it was the smaller locomotives (e.g. switchers, MIkados, etc.) that held the RRs together and kept them running on schedule.
I am glad to see some of the smaller diesels - e.g. Atlas' Alco HH600/660 switcher - getting released. I'd equally like to see some of the smaller steam in plastic.
Is it fair to say that the larger steam came out in a time where it was less likely to be "altered" or "customized" for a specific RR than earlier small steam? On second thought, a NKP or PM 2-8-4 Berkshire looks very different than a B&A or P&LE Berk. Course, that could also be said for some of the ubiquitous Mikados built for the various lines.
So, with all that said, I'll end by quoting Emily Patella: "Never mind."
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Crandell, The point remains that sold out or not, we don't know how many locos those Q2's represent. Again I would bet ALL the Q2's don't equal one batch of of Spectrum 2-8-0's. If BLI is making money that way, good for them, but they are missing a lot of my money, and apparently a lot of money from others on here as well.
All the while I continue to buy stuff like Bachmann 2-8-0's - I'm planning for a few more right now. One or two that will be kitbashed into more accurate C&O 2-8-0's, a few more for the ATLANTIC CENTRAL and one or two to be kit bashed into 0-8-0's just like the B&O did with many of its 2-8-0's in the later days of steam.
Bachmann has already made way more profit just selling ME 2-8-0's than BLI makes on a Q2.
The score remains something like this (including diesels):
Proto2000 50 +/-
Bachmann 33 and likely growing
Athearn 12
Intermountain 9 and likely growing
BLI/PCM 9 and likely done
Atlas 0
MTH 0
Kato 0
Personally, I don't see any reason to buy the newest and greatest. Wait a few years and buy older stuff from the people who have to have the newest and greatest. For example, I'm now in the market for a couple of Proto U28Bs, and they've been out for five years now. Good deals to be had, too.
Maybe we're going about this the wrong way. We do know that Bachmann is quite willing to do small to medium sized locomotives. Rather than wasting effort railing against the likes of BLI and MTH, maybe the focus ought to be to encourage Bachmann to get a bit more creative with their offerings. They've already got most of the tooling it would take to make a serviceable version of one (or both) of these: http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/SP2585Z2.JPG
or (same design, different details): http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/UP201.JPG
They've already got the cab and tender tooling for one of these: http://donsdepot.donrossgroup.net/dr1002/sp2321.jpg
UP had similar engines and they are good layout sized engines. SP also liked to play musical tenders and the USRA medium tender closely resembles some of the ex-EP&SW tenders occasionally used on SP's T-28's. That would appeal to the freelance crowd. The T-31 class had Walschaert valve gear and is also an option for Bachmann.
The Pennsy K4 chassis could be used as a starting point for one of these: http://www.railarchive.net/gmogallery/alton5296w.htm It wouldn't be dead on, but it would be close enough to satisfy all but the most anally retentive.
Same goes for this: http://www.yesteryeardepot.com/SP2458.JPG Identical Harriman heavy design, different details. Use the K4 chassis, new boiler, USRA medium tender, cab from the 2-8-0 and you've got a nice generic Pacific that's nearly as adaptable as the 2-8-0. The only really new tooling would involve the boiler.
andrechapelon Maybe we're going about this the wrong way. We do know that Bachmann is quite willing to do small to medium sized locomotives. Rather than wasting effort railing against the likes of BLI and MTH, maybe the focus ought to be to encourage Bachmann to get a bit more creative with their offerings.
Maybe we're going about this the wrong way. We do know that Bachmann is quite willing to do small to medium sized locomotives. Rather than wasting effort railing against the likes of BLI and MTH, maybe the focus ought to be to encourage Bachmann to get a bit more creative with their offerings.
Several have identified the Bachmann 2-8-0 as an example of a good idea. Let us concede that point and move on to whatever the next good idea is. Let's assume that I'm an importer and am willing to have that be a (inset wheel arrangement here) locomotive. So which one shall it be?
Should it be a generic x-x-x? No, that won't do because all the potential purchasers will complain that it does not represent a specific prototype. Note that I will eliminate from the potential purchaser list the "casual model railroader" because I know that these folks don't have moderate or advanced interest in the hobby.
How's about a specific prototype x-x-x? No, that won't do because unless it's a UP or PRR prototype I can't sell enough of them to get my money back, plus I'll be badgered by everyone elso because I didn't do one for them. And then the PRR and UP nit-pickers will complain that I got some gnat's eyeball size detail incorrect and won't buy them anyway.
Maybe I can sell something that can be bashed into many different prototypes? Hmmm, that won't do because I surveyed all the 60,000 MR forum members and less than a dozen are willing to do that.
I know. How about I import a limited number of x-x-x's and sell them for $682 each? I'll bet no one will complain about that.
Maxman,
First I think all of Andre's suggestions would do well. I know I would buy most of them. Second, when this has been discussed in the past, lots of good suggestions have been made and lots of good "overlap" design scenerios outlined that would allow one drive to supply 3, 4 or even more prototypes thereby lowering production costs even if the market for each of them is a little small.
And while I agree locos do need to be relatively accurate, no more "perfection" is needed than what currently exists in the market. AND, MTH seems determined to lower those standards backwards into the toy realm of just painting any name on the side you want.
I think Andre maks a good point, we need to to both support and lobby Bachmann to do more of what they have done so far. Now i'm even more determined to be on my way to the train store for some more 2-8-0's.
How about one that uses some of the tooling that already exists for a new offering to lower the development cost. Bachmann's proven they're pretty good at it. As I pointed out in my post, Bachmann could offer several new locomotives without having to start from scratch. It would just be carrying on an already established and successful tradition.
Why assume the next good idea has to be a new idea? It can just be an elaboration of a previously established good idea. The N&W Y6b was nothing more than a USRA 2-8-8-2 on steroids. The Boeing 737 went into service in 1968 and is still being built.
Everybody will complain about it and those not complaining about the price will complain that it won't go around an 18" radius curve.
And here is another point often forgotten - there were a fair number of "famous" small to medium sized locos, few of which have been recently represented in brass or plastic/diecast.
I'll even concede to the PRR thing a bit, E-6, G-5, L-1, H-9 and all their cousins - fact is even PRR modelers don't have a very "well rounded" selection of steam. In the scheme of railroad history, I would consider an E-6 just as important as a Big Boy.
How about those B&O Presidents BLI never did? I think they shot themselves in the foot my not offering undecorated and modernized versions in their "perorder" announcenment. While I would not have preordered, that would have made me a big potential customer.
How about Southern Ps4? I'll bet anyone could easily sell 5,000 or 10,000 of them. How about the "Casey Jones" ten wheeler?
Bowser could not sell their versions because they were not up to current standards of detail and kits are not so popular any more - but that does not mean interest in those prototypes is dead.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Maxman, ...I think Andre maks a good point, we need to to both support and lobby Bachmann to do more of what they have done so far. Now i'm even more determined to be on my way to the train store for some more 2-8-0's. Sheldon
...I think Andre maks a good point, we need to to both support and lobby Bachmann to do more of what they have done so far. Now i'm even more determined to be on my way to the train store for some more 2-8-0's.
For what it is worth, Sheldon, I have been trying to help the small-wishers out. Even on the BLI forum I have been asking them to consider breaking into the Harriman Pacific or some other market to help out. They would make a killing. Then, I slipped a few weeks later and asked the guys if they think BLI is due for a Yellowstone.
Crandell,
Just to be clear, I'm not anti "big locomotive", I do have my share of them as well. But my point has always been two fold - why do we need four or five "different" Big Boys as opposed to one or two Big Boys and three or four other choices, and we need more representation of small and MEDIUM sized "work a day" locos that moved America from 1890 to 1950.
In the old days we never had this cut throat, one upsmanship kind of competitiion. Athearn did more modern, Roundhouse did old time, you could count the overlap on your left hand, and TrainMinature filled in the center. It is clear that Athearn and Bachmann still make some effort to avoid too much overlap with competitors. But BLI and MTH seem determined to out do each other on many of the same items and in the case of MTH, he wants to step on Athearn the same way - I do think he is biting off more than he can chew.
And, if BLI was "doing so good" from a profit standpoint, then by now they should be established enough to invest in some long term inventory/product offerings and not still be "preorder" and "closeout" driven. I don't think its working at all, I think they are struggling and Athearn and Bachmann are kicking their butt. As for MTH, he did well enough in other scales to dump some money in HO and see what happens. And it is clear he has made some big ajustments from is initial view of the HO market.
But what do I know, I'm just a guy who spent 8 years selling trains.
One other thought that has been on my mind since I started this thread - what is "small" and what is "large"?
Well, I think we need a "medium" catagory as well.
I will define what I feel is Medium - the other two should be selve explainatory from there.
"Medium sized Steam"
2-8-2, 4-8-2, 2-8-4, 4-6-2 and 4-6-4
Hard to put in a size class - 2-10-0 and 2-10-2, some are small, some clearly medium, some pretty big.
This medium size group is not really much better represented than the smaller locos, except for a few "specific" prototpyes.
And, this may be where the manufacturers could make the easiest and fastest inroads into some new untapped markets.
Lee are you listening?
Then, I slipped a few weeks later and asked the guys if they think BLI is due for a Yellowstone.
I believe a few lines from the movie "The Great Race" are appropriate here:
Prince Hapnick: You! You're the cause of it all! It was your idea! General: No, no your highness... Baron von Schtupp Prince Hapnik: I don't care, I don't care! You're banished. I'm getting a new tucker-inner! Banished, banished, banished!
OR, if you want want to see how this thread can end up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0BOOgW7rHE
The above lines are about 3:25 seconds in.
A chockful of information for an HO newbie to digest, but, it brings be to ask about quality - are the Bachman and Athern and widely manufactured engines of good quality and reliable on detail and design? I have noticed the pricing difference between the companies and have wondered if the items follow "you get what you pay for" or, that the other items are just over priced?
DOes that make sense?
Matt
selector I know I harp on this niggling point, probably too much, but nobody reading here NEEDS anything remotely connected with this hobby. We WANT...oh how we WANT.
I know I harp on this niggling point, probably too much, but nobody reading here NEEDS anything remotely connected with this hobby. We WANT...oh how we WANT.
I don't know about that Crandell.... I think some folks are downright addicts.... where do you think the term "Mainlining" came from anyway???
John
No, Crandell, may I be so bold as to suggest that I could be accused of being 'anti-large steam'!! lol!!
If for the only reason that my great northern plains rr simply cannot support such an one as a Challenger et al!! Reason? My rails are secondary/short line stuff here...
It is an interesting thing that there is this interest in smaller and medium sized steamers...hopefully...when we get going on producing some of these...
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
jwhitten selector: I know I harp on this niggling point, probably too much, but nobody reading here NEEDS anything remotely connected with this hobby. We WANT...oh how we WANT. I don't know about that Crandell.... I think some folks are downright addicts.... where do you think the term "Mainlining" came from anyway??? John
selector: I know I harp on this niggling point, probably too much, but nobody reading here NEEDS anything remotely connected with this hobby. We WANT...oh how we WANT.
I think you let off a 'steamer' here....
Matt,
You will get lots of different opinions on quality, for several reasons. First no matter how well built a loco model is, some will judge it as "low quality" if the detail is not up to their very high standards. And others are not happy if locos have too much "fragile" detail.
Others will go only by a few bad experiances they have had and condem a whole product line because they got the one dud - sometimes a dud from 15 years ago keeps some poeple from considering a brand, even when ohers have expressed great success with that brands newer products.
Another imortant point is that not every product from a given company is always their best effort. Product A from company #1 might be a dud, and all their other stuff is great, OR most of comapny #2's products might just be so so, but product C is top notch.
I will give you some of my thoughts by brand.
Bachmann - years ago was just train set junk, but that was 30 years ago! Today their Spectrum and newer Regular line products are very good and affordable. Much of the regular line is not "high" or "fine" detail, but the newest offerings are still very nice. The Spectrum line, especially the steam locos, are mostly very good, but it does very a little from model to model. Basicly, over the last 15-20 years thier products have gotten better and better with each new release. Their defect rate use to be a little high, is better now, but they have a great warranty in any case.
Athearn - one of the oldest and best, BUT, slow to change their ways and not always going after the high detail market either. They have two seperate HO lines, Genesis is their "high detail" line and Ready to Roll is more medium detail and moderate cost - but again it can very a lot for item to item - overall build quality is good.
Proto2000 - now part of Walthers, this company pioneered the high detail plastic diesel loco wihle Bachmann went after that market in steam. They have a glitch now and then but are very good as well. The few steamers they have are excelent runners, if not always good pullers.
Atlas - very good drive design and high build quality. They are a little more expenisve and production is more limited - get them when you can if they make models you want.
Kato - mainly an N scale company , but equal to Atlas on all points.
Broadway Limited - fairly new company, about 10 years now, has had some problems but overall make very nice models and have good service. Some early diesels lacked detail, always limited productionr runs, prices very volital.
MTH - new to HO, took over some tooling from some other companies - that's too long a story - has more of a collector or toy approach to detail and features in my view.
Intermountain - limited selection of specific diesels, but very good in detail and operation.
Bowser/Stewart - similar to Intermountain and Proto, many will tell you the Stewart drives are the best in the hobby.
A few other thoughts: Do you like sound? Do you want DCC? and sound? This greatly effects prices and brand choices.
I don't use DCC or sound so I lean heavily to the companies that offer DC versions and stay away from BLI and MTH who cannot seem to decide if they want to sell models to DC operators or not.
I have lots of Proto, Bachmann, Athearn and Intermountain, a little bit of BLI (from earlier DC offerings or bought cheap and DCC/sound now removed). No MTH, Atlas or Kato because I model a specific time and locale and few of their offerings fit that theme.
Feel free to ask more questions, I'm sure you will get lots of opinions - many will be different from mine.
Sheldon -
Thank you for the summary and your description; it is very informative and will help me along the way. With so many manufacturers to choose from; it is good to get some feedback from experienced hobbyists.
I am working on DC and not DCC base on cost but also, based upon my limited electrical knowledge; as I understand, there is a lot of extra wiring needed with the tracks and turnouts etc., which I find intimidating for where I am right now. Sound is fine, but not something I am going out of my way to locate. I'm looking to do GN layout during the transition from steam to diesel, looking around the late 40s-50s, which allows me a lot of play with engines.
Thanks again!
Matt.
PS - what's the word on Mantua products?
Sheldon,Ask GSB if they suffered from any "one upsmanship" when Uncle Irv produced the SD40 before they could and blew them out of the water. And how many RS-3's came out in the 1980's? Stewart, Atlas, MDC... I'd say there was a little competition there. And how many F-units were being made back then?
The real issue back then was for two simple reasons: 1). There wasn't that much stuff out there to be in competition with since a company like Atlas or Athearn may come out with 1 new loco per year...or every 2 years, and 2). there wasn't too much chance of any overlap as there were large gaps in models available. A manufacturer could throw a dart at a list of diesels and the odds of them hitting a loco that had been done already was pretty remote. Not so these days, with even oddball diesels getting multiple runs like DL109's, C-Liners and U18B's.
Paul A. Cutler III
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Atlas - very good drive design and high build quality. They are a little more expenisve and production is more limited - get them when you can if they make models you want. Kato - mainly an N scale company , but equal to Atlas on all points. Feel free to ask more questions, I'm sure you will get lots of opinions - many will be different from mine. Sheldon
The current Atlas drive is a copy of the Kato drive system. Atlas contracted Kato in the early 1980s to make HO diesels, RS3 was first. This unit set a standard for performance that still holds up today. I recently purchased an older Atlas/Kato yellow box GP7. Put a decoder in it, and is now pretty much the best runner I have. Later on Atlas moved production to China, but closely copied the Kato drive. Most of the drive parts interchange between the Japan and China engines.
Mike WSOR engineer | HO scale since 1988 | Visit our club www.WCGandyDancers.com
CNJ831 ATLANTIC CENTRAL: selector: I know I harp on this niggling point, probably too much, but nobody reading here NEEDS anything remotely connected with this hobby. We WANT...oh how we WANT. And that drives the purchasing behaviour, as surely as it has done for the automobile industry. What you see offered in numbers is what sells, minus minor adjustments due to lag between the customer base and the suppliers...typically about two years. I don't pretend to have a good handle on what the hobby needs, but I sure know what those paying want, and so do the solvent suppliers. So far, big steam seems to be pretty robust. Crandell Crandell, we don't really know that because we don't know how many Big Boys Athearn, Rivarossi, MTH, and BLI have produced or sold vs how many 2-8-0's and 4-6-0's Bachmann has sold. Could be Bachmann has sold way more of those, than all the Big boys put together two or three or ten times over? We just don't know. Sheldon While it is admittedly not possible to produce specific figures for the number of units actually sold, there can hardly be any question that an item like Bachmann's 2-8-0 has far out sold any combination of other manufacturer's Big Boys, or similar engines, in the past ten years. The Big Boys, et al, are all from companies well known to be producing limited runs and these are generally run only one time. These runs are so small that they usually sell out in a very short time, or may even be all pre-sold (i.e. indicative of very low production numbers). Bachmann, certainly a larger company by a whole order of magnitude than its competitors, has produced run after run of their same item. And unquestionable in volumes far exceeding any of the other companies' runs by a minimum of several times over. These points cited above can leave little question that in the real world the on going demand for small steam far outdistances that for huge locomotives and many times over, as it always has in the hobby. CNJ831
ATLANTIC CENTRAL: selector: I know I harp on this niggling point, probably too much, but nobody reading here NEEDS anything remotely connected with this hobby. We WANT...oh how we WANT. And that drives the purchasing behaviour, as surely as it has done for the automobile industry. What you see offered in numbers is what sells, minus minor adjustments due to lag between the customer base and the suppliers...typically about two years. I don't pretend to have a good handle on what the hobby needs, but I sure know what those paying want, and so do the solvent suppliers. So far, big steam seems to be pretty robust. Crandell Crandell, we don't really know that because we don't know how many Big Boys Athearn, Rivarossi, MTH, and BLI have produced or sold vs how many 2-8-0's and 4-6-0's Bachmann has sold. Could be Bachmann has sold way more of those, than all the Big boys put together two or three or ten times over? We just don't know. Sheldon
selector: I know I harp on this niggling point, probably too much, but nobody reading here NEEDS anything remotely connected with this hobby. We WANT...oh how we WANT. And that drives the purchasing behaviour, as surely as it has done for the automobile industry. What you see offered in numbers is what sells, minus minor adjustments due to lag between the customer base and the suppliers...typically about two years. I don't pretend to have a good handle on what the hobby needs, but I sure know what those paying want, and so do the solvent suppliers. So far, big steam seems to be pretty robust. Crandell
I know I harp on this niggling point, probably too much, but nobody reading here NEEDS anything remotely connected with this hobby. We WANT...oh how we WANT. And that drives the purchasing behaviour, as surely as it has done for the automobile industry. What you see offered in numbers is what sells, minus minor adjustments due to lag between the customer base and the suppliers...typically about two years.
I don't pretend to have a good handle on what the hobby needs, but I sure know what those paying want, and so do the solvent suppliers. So far, big steam seems to be pretty robust.
Crandell, we don't really know that because we don't know how many Big Boys Athearn, Rivarossi, MTH, and BLI have produced or sold vs how many 2-8-0's and 4-6-0's Bachmann has sold.
Could be Bachmann has sold way more of those, than all the Big boys put together two or three or ten times over? We just don't know.
While it is admittedly not possible to produce specific figures for the number of units actually sold, there can hardly be any question that an item like Bachmann's 2-8-0 has far out sold any combination of other manufacturer's Big Boys, or similar engines, in the past ten years. The Big Boys, et al, are all from companies well known to be producing limited runs and these are generally run only one time. These runs are so small that they usually sell out in a very short time, or may even be all pre-sold (i.e. indicative of very low production numbers).
Bachmann, certainly a larger company by a whole order of magnitude than its competitors, has produced run after run of their same item. And unquestionable in volumes far exceeding any of the other companies' runs by a minimum of several times over. These points cited above can leave little question that in the real world the on going demand for small steam far outdistances that for huge locomotives and many times over, as it always has in the hobby.
CNJ831
I agree. I have six of the Bachmann 2-8-0's-- actually seven, come to think of it-- just bought one recently and haven't unwrapped it yet--- but when I get ramped-up and further along on my layout (like getting track down) I would eventually like to have a whole fleet of them. I wish there were more Pennsy small steam out there in plastic. I can't (won't) afford brass and it sure would be nice to have say some H10's on the layout.
Paul3 Sheldon,Ask GSB if they suffered from any "one upsmanship" when Uncle Irv produced the SD40 before they could and blew them out of the water. And how many RS-3's came out in the 1980's? Stewart, Atlas, MDC... I'd say there was a little competition there. And how many F-units were being made back then? The real issue back then was for two simple reasons: 1). There wasn't that much stuff out there to be in competition with since a company like Atlas or Athearn may come out with 1 new loco per year...or every 2 years, and 2). there wasn't too much chance of any overlap as there were large gaps in models available. A manufacturer could throw a dart at a list of diesels and the odds of them hitting a loco that had been done already was pretty remote. Not so these days, with even oddball diesels getting multiple runs like DL109's, C-Liners and U18B's. Paul A. Cutler III
Paul, First, we will never know if Athearn was already planning the SD40 when GSB tried to do theirs, Athearn has always been good at keeping secrets. And pointing to one example is nothing like what goes on today between MTH, BLI and others. As for F units, you had Athearn, and a bunch of train set junk, that's it. Even then that would have been like comparing Bachmann's current $35 F units to a $150 Genesis F unit - two different markets.
And yes, it started to change in the 80's, but niether Bachmann or Athearn lead the charge then either. Atlas and Kato were the "new kids" in that part of the market and they chose to bring out stuff in competition with each other.
I was there, running a train department.
GN_mountain_goat Sheldon - Thank you for the summary and your description; it is very informative and will help me along the way. With so many manufacturers to choose from; it is good to get some feedback from experienced hobbyists. I am working on DC and not DCC base on cost but also, based upon my limited electrical knowledge; as I understand, there is a lot of extra wiring needed with the tracks and turnouts etc., which I find intimidating for where I am right now. Sound is fine, but not something I am going out of my way to locate. I'm looking to do GN layout during the transition from steam to diesel, looking around the late 40s-50s, which allows me a lot of play with engines. Thanks again! Matt. PS - what's the word on Mantua products?
Mantua, now made by Model Power, is an old line of die cast locos. They have been updated electricly, but detail is not much different from their introduction in the 50's - pretty spartan. Also, they are all freelanced models, none are acurate models for the roadnames offered.
Don't know much about the build quality of the newest ones, but I have not heard and complaints.
John W has 7 Bachmann 2-8-0's, I have 8, several others have noted they have a few, seems like maybe lots of modelers do aquire small "work a day" locomotives "by the six pack". Does anybody know anybody with six Big Boys? I don't know anybody who does.
But I have eight 2-8-0's, eight 2-8-2's, nine 4-8-2's, three 4-6-2's, etc.