Hello,
I am talking about the layouts that are constructed more recently be it a 4 by 8 layout or larger. Went to a LHS two weeks ago and admired some SD70ACE's from Athearn and the proprietor of the store said that all he orders now for display are engines with sound on board. Special orders are the straight DC locomotives. Went to a train show today and again looked at some of the same locomotives and again the sales person said that at their store they only get the sound version, they are ordering less and less DC locomotives. At another table was a gentleman that builds layouts for people and he too tells his clients to go straight into DCC.
What is your experience, is this only a trend here in this area in southern Ontario? I for one do not mind my DC layout. I do not mind doing the extra wiring and throwing the extra switch, specially since I am a lone wolf modeller. Also being a electrician probably helps. If I wanted to go into DCC I am certain that the decoder installation would be pretty straight forward.
Do you see DC loco's except for the cheapest most basic train sets disappearing from the shelves at the LHS?
Frank
"If you need a helping hand, you'll find one at the end of your arm."
My hobby shop still carries a lot of DC stuff. Individual locomotives with sound outnumber the DC ones, but the digital stuff isn't taking over. What the hobby shops carry depends on the customers. You may have more digital railroaders in your area.
_________________________________________________________________
Is the DCC market slowly growing? Yes, I'd definitely say that it is. DC disappearing, however, is quite another question.
I would speculate that DC is still dominant in the hobby and will likely remain viable as an operating system for perhaps the next 15-20 years. It is simply a matter of too many older hobbyists having too many DC locomotives they are unwilling to convert for there to be any truly rapid and dramatic change in the situation. I, like quite a number of other long time hobbyists I know, will likely never bother to make the change-over, simply because what we currently have operating our layouts works just fine for us. DC sales still have many profitable years ahead of them.
CNJ831
Most stuff I see at the hobby shop is predominantly DC, especially the train sets. Even higher brand loco's are mostly DC with a DCC plug.
I find it interesting that there are several DC power packs that cost as much or more than a DCC starter set.
Springfield PA
I think DC will never die untill DCC becomes more affordable.
The Lone Geep
Lone Geep
\
Where I shop/look its about equal at one shop and still more DC at the other. What I have noticed, though is that the plain DC locos are starting to cost the same or more than the DCC versions, and that DC power packs are getting up there in price as well.
I'm not sure DC will disappear just yet, but I think it is being forced out. Time comes with change.
If not, we'd all still be driving Model T's with standard tranny and no a/c, and not travelling more than 30 MPH.
We, too, will all be assimilated, to quote the borg.
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
da_kraut Hello, I am talking about the layouts that are constructed more recently be it a 4 by 8 layout or larger. Went to a LHS two weeks ago and admired some SD70ACE's from Athearn and the proprietor of the store said that all he orders now for display are engines with sound on board. Special orders are the straight DC locomotives. Went to a train show today and again looked at some of the same locomotives and again the sales person said that at their store they only get the sound version, they are ordering less and less DC locomotives. At another table was a gentleman that builds layouts for people and he too tells his clients to go straight into DCC. What is your experience, is this only a trend here in this area in southern Ontario? I for one do not mind my DC layout. I do not mind doing the extra wiring and throwing the extra switch, specially since I am a lone wolf modeller. Also being a electrician probably helps. If I wanted to go into DCC I am certain that the decoder installation would be pretty straight forward. Do you see DC loco's except for the cheapest most basic train sets disappearing from the shelves at the LHS? Frank
The BNSF layout at the Chicago Museum is a DC layout and is not changing. In general, you are probably correct about DCC being used now for many home and club layouts and DC is probably not so popular as it once was before DCC.
CZ
Frank,
I'm currently rebuilding my layout so that it will be transportable when we decide where we want to retire.
The current space is a 24' x 40' heated and cooled finished room aboave my detached garage.
The layout specs are roughly as follows: 8 scale mile double track mainline on two decks, staging for about 25 trains, design train length 20 actual feet, detection, signals and CTC dispatching, seperate industrial belt line, seperate single track WM interchange line, etc, etc.
It will be DC with Aristo Craft Train Engineer wireless radio thorttles, a walk around cab selection system, redundent tower controls, provisions for 8-10 operators at once, and alternate display mode allowing 5-6 display "loops" to just run.
Mainline turnout contols provide one touch routing through even complex interlockings and are duplicated at local tower panels and on the CTC panel.
Typical power per mainline train is two steam locos or 3-4 diesels. Do that math, 25 trains x 3 locos x extras for power changes = 130 + locos. Locos I already have and don't want to add decoders to.
Cabs are assigned to throttles by redundent pushbuttons that allow full walk around operation and/or CTC panel operation. Many "track sections" (blocks) are automaticly connected based on turnout position (X sections) so the number of "track sections" (blocks) that must be "assigned" is greatly reduced - based on Ed Ravenscroft's MZL control and the work of Paul Mallery.
It is all done with some inexpensive relays, pushbuttons, cat 5 cable, and the repetitve use of some simple circuits that have been used to control machines since the invention of the electric motor.
Important note - I have no interest in onboard sound.
I just installed a similar but simpler DC cab selection system on a friend's layout about a year and a half ago. He too uses the Aristo Train Engineer thorttles.
Rumors about the death of DC are greatly exaggerated.
Sheldon
I think that DC will be around for a long while to come yet...this kind of thing has come up in some local clubs about changing over to DCC but most have turned it down because of the conversion costs..and at a time when some of these clubs are doing the hunker down thing.....megh...conversion is going to be a cost factor for sure...
As for home layouts...megh... I see there to be a bit of an inroad being made by DCC but...not so much...just yet...
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
No. Apparently DC is still firmly in the drivers seat as witnessed by the various black boxes for DC sound control,duel mode decoders as well as the new MRC Tech 6..
Even Bachmann's DCC on board locomotives can be operated on DC.
Let's take a closer look at Bachmann's DCC strategy..
Simply put they are marketing basic DCC equipped locomotives at a affordable price and at street price they are a bargain for many modelers that wants DCC but,has budget restraints..
I have no doubt the other manufacturers are scratching their heads and wondering how to counter this move.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I dont think that DC is going to disappear any time soon, but it does pose another interesting question especially to modeler that has a large layout in Dc that they've been working on for years. If you had to start over from scratch for whatever reason, would you stick with DC or make the move to go with DCC at that point?
Michael
Never attempt anything you don't want to explain to the EMT
lone geep I think DC will never die untill DCC becomes more affordable. The Lone Geep
Just the cost of the starter system alone is keeping my layout a DC block controlled one. Let alone the cost of installing decoders in all of my locomotives.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
da_kraut I am talking about the layouts that are constructed more recently be it a 4 by 8 layout or larger....
I am talking about the layouts that are constructed more recently be it a 4 by 8 layout or larger....
My current layout, which was started this fall, is DC. This is a small test layout, but its larger successor(s) will likely by DC as well.
....At another table was a gentleman that builds layouts for people and he too tells his clients to go straight into DCC.....
I would expect that from a custom layout builder. His clients are willing to spend more $$ on their layouts than most of us. And unless he has an unusual contract provision to use customer's pre-existing DC equipment, there would be little reason not to push his clients into DCC.
....Do you see DC loco's except for the cheapest most basic train sets disappearing from the shelves at the LHS?....
Yes, I do. In general, the RTR locomotive format has very little reason to remain DC. The installation of a DCC decoder adds perhaps $5 (for non-sound) and perhaps $40 for Tsunami to the manufacturer. The customer perceives the DCC-equipped model as adding extra value for the extra $100 retail for sound, or the customer perceives the DCC-equipped model as keeping up with the times and the competition. Either way, not having the decoder installed is seen as a detriment by most. Especially since present day DCC decoders run adequately on DC. Those DC customers who don't want decoders interfering with the locomotive performance know exactly what they want, and are usually willing to order their choice, or remove the decoder on their own. After all, the manufacturer of RTR needs the initial out-of-the-box experience for the average Joe to be good to get repeat customers - and little else matters.
Personally, since I already own and understand DC equipment, and am on a limited hobby budget until my kids finish college (8 years), DCC doesn't offer enough return on my hobby dollars. If I had a larger, multi-operator layout or was buying sound-equipped RTR locomotives, I might be of a different opinion. I do reserve the right to change my mind in the future, and have explored the real costs of getting the DCC setup I want. For the present, there are other aspects of the layout that have a higher priority for my hobby dollars. And I am content with that decision.
Fred W
To follow up on the comments of a few others, Bachmann has the perfect strategy, offer DCC with sound for that group, and offer DCC dual mode at a price so low DC modelers are not put off, AND, they include the parts and instructions to remove the decoder.
I sell my surplus Bachmann decoders on Ebay, I don't ask much, but I don't pay much. They sell like hot cakes.
It would be a wise move for all of these manufacturers to follow.
Michael6792 I dont think that DC is going to disappear any time soon, but it does pose another interesting question especially to modeler that has a large layout in Dc that they've been working on for years. If you had to start over from scratch for whatever reason, would you stick with DC or make the move to go with DCC at that point?
Several of us have already answered this question - I'm rebuilding and staying DC.
From what I've witnessed here in Florida, DCC is continuing to grow in popularity. I was pleasantly surprised when just a few years ago I joined the Suncoast Model Railroader's Club. Strictly DC, many of the members (especially old timers) were not interested in DCC...........at first. Within a 1 1/2 year's time, the club transitioned totally DCC. The simplified operations potential, simplified wiring, total freedom for locomotives to travel on any track and anytime, and the flexibility to control lights and sound features offered too much potential to ignore. One of the members was 90 years old and enjoyed DCC.
Currently during operations sessions, except for one dispatcher, modelers run the trains instead of the layout! As strange as it sounds a prototypical aspect that operators have to watch for is collisions! Like prototype locomotive engineers, DCC modelers operating on cub layouts have to be alert.
I don't think DC will disappear, but imho DCC will become much more popular as the technically sharp 20- something modelers mature into the 30-40 something generation. DCC and DCC-Sound will be the norm for many of them.
Personally, after having tried DCC and DCC-sound, there is no way I'd want a DC cab control layout.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
Within the past two years, I'm pretty sure I've visitied just about every hobby shop in Indiana and many other shops in the surrounding states of MI, IL,and OH. A corporate owned hobby chain with a location in Indy has as inventory of about 75% DCC and Sound. The other roughly two dozen shops I've been in have about 75% DC.
I think LHS' cater to their customers, so each experience may differ.
As a trend, yes, DC is disappearing, but slowly. For instance, as others have mentioned, there isn't much need to convert an existing layout to DCC if the current DC layout works just fine now. OTOH, If newbies enter the hobby, they'll probably go straight to DCC since, if you no nothing about DC or DCC, why not just learn the current technology and skip the old school.
However again, a newbie may also want to just get his feet wet and start off with a DC train set. Then, manage to get interested in other aspects of the hobby such as locomotive details, structure building, railroad history, etc, before operating systems become that interesting to him. So his pace of change may be slower, if he changes at all.
How to judge how quickly DC will eventually disappear from hobby shop shelves involves too many factors for my brain to compute. If the manufacturer's fail to support DC, oh well, there are always plenty of people selling off their DC stuff. It will take even longer for the second-hand DC market to dissappear.
- Douglas
When you think about it DC will probably outlive DCC. DCC has pretty much maxed out on capability. I think what we'll see is a next generation DCC that will be backwards compatible with current DCC, and the current technology will fade away. DC will more than likely survive past that point. It makes no sense for an industry to be based on technology designed when 8 bit processors ruled the day. Even standard sound decoders have substantially more computing power than both Digitrax and NCE's best system. I had opened both up and they both run off of 8 bit processors with very little memory.
Although the percentages may shrink over time, I personally think DC will always be around for the modeler. In it's most basic form, DC is very simple; in other ways it can be quite complicated. DCC is very much like that, too. Either way you can put as much or as little as you want into the hobby - albeit from a financial, time, educational, and/or social standpoint.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Hamltnblue When you think about it DC will probably outlive DCC. DCC has pretty much maxed out on capability. I think what we'll see is a next generation DCC that will be backwards compatible with current DCC, and the current technology will fade away. DC will more than likely survive past that point. It makes no sense for an industry to be based on technology designed when 8 bit processors ruled the day. Even standard sound decoders have substantially more computing power than both Digitrax and NCE's best system. I had opened both up and they both run off of 8 bit processors with very little memory.
My thoughts exactly - well sort of. DCC has some advantages for some applications and the reasons for chosing or not have been widely discussed on here, it is a personal choice depending on your goals.
But I do suspect this technolgy has just gotten started. I joke about a lot of tech stuff that I have no use for by saying "I'll just wait for the Star Trek version". I don't own an Ipod, my cell phone does not take pictures or get on the net, I've never sent a text measage and my house does not have a programable thermostat.
But I designed and installed some of the first industrial "program logic controllers" for industrial otor/process controls back in the 80's. My house has home automation (for important stuff, not messing with the heat settings) and I have designed dozens of top quality hifi speaker systems and lots of industrial control systems, digital and analog.
IF I ever put little "decoder brains" in my locos, I want them to also be direct radio receivers, taking the control signal off the rails and reducing the under layout infrastructure now common on larger DCC layouts.
Until and unless such advancements come and make a suitable impression, I will stay with my radio DC throttles and MZL advanced cab control.
But what do I know, i'm just a hick with a pickup, some guns and some trains without brains.
Makes sense with the radio. When you think about it, radio control has become more popular lately. They work by having a radio controller transmit to a receiver, which interfaces with the DCC controller, which puts the signal on the track, which in turn is received by the trains decoder. You would think it would be much easier to just electrify the track and have the radio receiver on the loco's. It seems to work just fine in the RC car, boat, and airplane industry and the range is much farther than ever used by trains.
Hamltnblue Makes sense with the radio. When you think about it, radio control has become more popular lately. They work by having a radio controller transmit to a receiver, which interfaces with the DCC controller, which puts the signal on the track, which in turn is received by the trains decoder. You would think it would be much easier to just electrify the track and have the radio receiver on the loco's. It seems to work just fine in the RC car, boat, and airplane industry and the range is much farther than ever used by trains.
I think you're right, if you just want to control throttle. But if you want to control throttle, lights, and sound, I think you need the decoder to route the signal to the proper circuit.
Maybe have a different frequency for each circuit?
Hamitnblue,
Actually it is already availabe for scales larger than HO. It's available in two forms, the Aristo Craft Revolution and Airwire by CVP. It is the popular way to run large scale.
But, size is the limiting factor for HO - but they are working on it.
Doughless Hamltnblue: Makes sense with the radio. When you think about it, radio control has become more popular lately. They work by having a radio controller transmit to a receiver, which interfaces with the DCC controller, which puts the signal on the track, which in turn is received by the trains decoder. You would think it would be much easier to just electrify the track and have the radio receiver on the loco's. It seems to work just fine in the RC car, boat, and airplane industry and the range is much farther than ever used by trains. I think you're right, if you just want to control throttle. But if you want to control throttle, lights, and sound, I think you need the decoder to route the signal to the proper circuit. Maybe have a different frequency for each circuit?
Hamltnblue: Makes sense with the radio. When you think about it, radio control has become more popular lately. They work by having a radio controller transmit to a receiver, which interfaces with the DCC controller, which puts the signal on the track, which in turn is received by the trains decoder. You would think it would be much easier to just electrify the track and have the radio receiver on the loco's. It seems to work just fine in the RC car, boat, and airplane industry and the range is much farther than ever used by trains.
Wrong - digital proportional control - Its been done for decades with model airplanes.
Look up the Aristo Revolution or Airwire, they control sound boards, lights, smoke units, what ever - one uses DCC technology, one does not.
We'll have to keep an eye on it.
As far as multiple functions, it's available in RC. When I was doing rc planes 15 years ago I had motor control, aileron variable, Flaps with several positions, variable rudder, Variable elevator, and a few aux functions. I'm sure they've increased above that. I do know they are running digital these days which probably offers unlimited functions.
I recently got started in the model RR hobby again in retirement. I asked advice at our local hobby shops and on online forums about DCC vs. DC and nickel silver vs. brass track and appreciated everyones input. However, considering I am willing to spend hundreds rather than thousands of dollars for a hobby I enjoyed a great deal as a teenager, I chose to go the less expensive route. I was able to acquire a large amount of brass track and two double cab DC transformers on Ebay for pennies on the dollar. My locomotives all cost at least $100 less than DCC equipped ones. Yes, I do not have all the bells and whistles but I still enjoy what I do have and a lot of the hobby is planning the layout, track laying and scenery which is pretty much the same whether using DCC or DC. I do enjoy going to train shows and open houses to see the more elaborate and high tech layouts but don't walk around my house wishing I had all that of my own.
So, I will stick with the "old school" and give the extra to my church or those in need. Glad to hear so many others have decided the same.
When I was younger and was still MRRing, I obviously had DC. Now that i'm getting back into it. I'm probably going to ditch the DC controller and go DCC when money is free. For me, DCC offers me more of what I want and that is freedom to travel the layout when I want to control the train.
I went to one shop and they sell DCC and DC loco's and I was asking questions and the guy was happy to sell DCC, but he was trying his hardest to change my mind and stay with DC ( He is NOT a DCC or sound fan ). DC will go no where anytime soon, but like all tech, things will move forward and you either pick and choose the tech you want or you don't. Not sure if I want sound in them or not,but I can always lower the volume and not here the sound if I choose!
There are also those like me who's prototype inspiration and model are one horse (ok iron horse) branch lines. My wiring right now with DC is two wires to the track. No blocks, electrical switches, etc.. Operationally DCC wouldn't add a single thing for me. I've thought about it from time to time, but haven't yet spent the money. Perhaps when the sound get's a bit better, I may switch then.
Oh, I also think it's funny, no matter if it's this board or any other, if the topic turns to technology, someone has to turn it into "well when the older generation moves on, the younger gen will accept this technology." Nope young padawan, it's much simplier than that -- while you may be just acquiring stuff, I have a legacy to go through, and put kids through college at the same time. It comes down to time and money, nothing else.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Doughless: Hamltnblue: Makes sense with the radio. When you think about it, radio control has become more popular lately. They work by having a radio controller transmit to a receiver, which interfaces with the DCC controller, which puts the signal on the track, which in turn is received by the trains decoder. You would think it would be much easier to just electrify the track and have the radio receiver on the loco's. It seems to work just fine in the RC car, boat, and airplane industry and the range is much farther than ever used by trains. I think you're right, if you just want to control throttle. But if you want to control throttle, lights, and sound, I think you need the decoder to route the signal to the proper circuit. Maybe have a different frequency for each circuit? Wrong - digital proportional control - Its been done for decades with model airplanes. Look up the Aristo Revolution or Airwire, they control sound boards, lights, smoke units, what ever - one uses DCC technology, one does not. Sheldon
Doughless: Hamltnblue: Makes sense with the radio. When you think about it, radio control has become more popular lately. They work by having a radio controller transmit to a receiver, which interfaces with the DCC controller, which puts the signal on the track, which in turn is received by the trains decoder. You would think it would be much easier to just electrify the track and have the radio receiver on the loco's. It seems to work just fine in the RC car, boat, and airplane industry and the range is much farther than ever used by trains. I think you're right, if you just want to control throttle. But if you want to control throttle, lights, and sound, I think you need the decoder to route the signal to the proper circuit. Maybe have a different frequency for each circuit?
Well then, to get to the heart of the matter, why does one use DCC technology and the other not, if they both accomplish the same thing?
On second thought, no matter how hard I try, my simple mind doesn't accept the clutter that's generated by understanding how to accomplish the same goal two different ways, so I wouldn't get past square one. Nevermind.
.
"Are the DC layouts slowly all disappearing?"
Here's an aspect of this question that hasn't yet been mentioned and which may turn out to be critical. Since the hobby's demographic is today essentially an inverted pyramid, with the ever dwindling number of newcomers the most likely candidates for purchasing new DCC operating systems, this eventually might well almost stagnate sales of DCC. That point might conceivably even be reached before DCC attains a 50% market share!
I will say, however, that strictly DC locomotives may well pass into history in the not too distant future. In fact, I'm a bit surprised that this hasn't occurred already. Certainly, the future lies with dual-mode decoder equipped engines that can service both DC and basic DCC enthusiast. Such a total shift to universal dual-mode decoder equipped engines across the industry not only would add a small additional profit per sale, but the unifying of production runs to a single system would likewise represent a savings for the manufactures (and, yes, many are already there in this approach).