aaaahhhhhhh....bickerfesting over market share....
This is starting to get silly.
Why are we having people trying to convert others to go DCC here? Is there a new religion out there? No.
I use DCC as well...I do not have a problem with others using DC ... so what is the big whoopie about here?
If people want to stay with DC let them...
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Mark --
Why is it that you get an emotional reaction (resentment is an emotional reaction ...), and start talking how others have called you "old fashioned, out of touch, simple minded, and even stupid" in this context?
I can't recall having seen anyone else call you "stupid" or "simple minded" or anything even remotely similar to that in this thread? If you believe you have been so treated - who did it? When?
Stein
Hey Stein,
Saying I'm emotional about this denotes I care, I really could give a "rat's patootie" about how you operate your railroad, that's up to you.
And for the record I didn't say anyone on this forum has referred to me as stupid or any other names, I doubt that the moderators would allow that to happen and everybody pretty well knows that.
Again, I'm not the one who is emotional about the issue, I guess if you really needed me to give you an emotion it would be closer to "amused" by the whole thing as it always goes from a discussion to an arguement, never fails here or anywhere else.
I guess now I can add "emotional" to the list with all of the others eh?
Mark
Stein,I see you know very little about the principles of dispatching-don't feel bad there are thousands of others.
----------------------------
Now, picture an even more complex situation - due to a massive mess caused by a derailment on a busy mainline, you need to tuck two short westbound trains into the long siding labeled "Block 5", to allow three eastbound trains to move past them.
---------------------------
First as a dispatcher I would not get into that situation.I would hold the shorter trains in 2 separate passing sidings(no sense in crowding a passing siding) till the Eastbound flow passes then start the Westbound flow holding any Eastbound train behind the first three in a passing siding til I got the 2 Westbounds through..
At one club we dispatch with CTC and as a dispatcher I had to manage to get 4 Eastbound and 4 Westbound trains between the yards and like a chess game I had to plan my moves ahead and aviod any situation like you describe.
I could do 3 way meets as well simply by having one train to hold the main and having the following train to stop at the signal until the opposing train entered the siding.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
blownout cylinder aaaahhhhhhh....bickerfesting over market share.... This is starting to get silly. Why are we having people trying to convert others to go DCC here? Is there a new religion out there? No.
I'm not so sure about that!
I don't know just how long you've been perusing model railroading forums (I'm sure some other long timers here will recall this situation), but back in the early 2000's most sites saw a plague of "DCC Zealots" descend upon them. These folks would interject their DCC opinions into absolutely every thread, regardless of its nature, even if it had absolutely nothing to do with train control. If you have turnout problems - DCC will fix that. Poor running locos because of dirty track - DCC will cure that. Have a certain car that derails...yep, DCC will fix that too! And so on. It was truly bordering on insanity. Finally it reached a point where posters were heading some threads asking would DCCers please not respond to their question, such as, "This Is A DC-Only Thread"! Even that didn't deter the zealots!
Thank goodness that sort of nonsense has subsided, but we still get threads like this one (the subject line gave its intent away to me at the very first glance) and it was clear just where the thread would go. For some reason many DCC folks simply can't stand the idea that although DCC has been in the marketplace for a long time now, it still clearly ranks second to DC in regard to use among current hobbyists. And you wonder why the public views model railroaders as a bunch of strange ducks these days?
CNJ831
Personally, I've not seen a DCC only loco in my hobby shop. They are capable of running both DC and DCC. One loco appealling to both sets seems to be a good idea from a marketing and manufacturing standpoint. If you are DCC it fits, if you are DC it fits, if you are one wishing or planning to switch to the other, it fits. If you are DC and don't want to spend the few extra bucks for the decoder in some, you can choose the DCC ready, or if you have a preference for a different brand than installed you can choose DCC ready and install the one of your choosing.OR as someone said, sell the old decoder for a few bucks.
Sounds like no sign of DC going away to me, just the manufacturers accomodating both sets and slimming production costs. Look at your car. You may not have some option, but usually you'll find the cars wiring harness will accommodate the option you do not have. More expensive per vehicle? Yes, but overall with all things considered, one wiring harness is cheaper than making and storing two. Same with the model locos.
Todd
Central Illinoyz
In order to keep my position as Master and Supreme Ruler of the House, I don't argue with my wife.
I'm a small town boy. A product of two people from even smaller towns. I don’t talk on topic….. I just talk.
To DCC or not to DCC......that is the question!!
Nothing wrong with DC, never has been! Nothing wrong with DCC either, never will be!
Again, the same with rolling stock & locomotive manufacturers, it's all a matter of choice & to a latter extent, opinion!
We all know a thing about opinions in this hobby, especially on this forum!
I'm choosing to go DC even though I want to go DCC. My choice! Nothing more. It boils down to economics! I can't afford to DCC all of my locomotives right now. Again, choice. When i go DCC, it's all in all at once! I have 100 locomotives to convert & I like using anyone of them at any given time.
Gordon
Brought to you by the letters C.P.R. as well as D&H!
K1a - all the way
Stein wrote:
Please explain to me again why DC and cab selection is less complex and more prototype-like, if you are going to perform the relatively simple maneuver of having a train pass through this part of the line, or if you are going to have two trains meet either at the leftmost or rightmost siding, to have to switch which cab controls which block(s) of track ?
Say - setting Blocks 1 and 3 and 5 to be controlled by Cab A, and blocks 4 and 6 to be controlled by Cab B, in the case of a planned meet where the eastbound train goes into the siding labeled "Block 5".
Now, introduce a third operator, a third train and a third cab. Say it the late running third train either will go into the hole at the siding labeled "Block 2", or you will try to have one train wait in the siding labeled "Block 5" while the other two trains (preferably moving in the same direction :-) pass it on the main, one after another.
Stein,
First you are assuming that each block must be seperately controled with a selector switch or toggle - not so. Examine the control panel shown:
This is a control panel on a layout that uses Aristo Wireless DC throttles for walk around control. The two "passing siding blocks" get their power from the two "outlying blocks" based on turnout position.
Two trains can move at the same time into their assigned track on the siding. Trains with no possible route based on turnout position are automaticly on dead track. Engineers have very few "toggles to flip", and turnouts have to be alighed with any system - DC or DCC.
I suggest you find out more about Ed Ravenscroft and MLZ control (Model Railroader - Feb '74 thru May "74) and that you read Paul Mallery's work on advanced cab control before you make too many assumptions about the user interface needed to control DC layouts. Admittedly such systems envlove more complex electrical construction, but they result in user interface that is easy and similar to DCC, where aligning turnouts and/or getting "trackage rights" from a dispatcher are often the only "action" needed, not a lot of "toggle flipping".
And your 'senerio" is not very prototypical as Brakie suggests, in the type of scenerio you suggest, a dispatcher would more likely hold one of those trains "fartrher out", for safety reasons.
Paul Mallery suggested a system like I have built for the layout shown in the picture, but never saw it done. We did it and it works great.
On the control panel shown, the lower sets of buttons assign cabs to the "town" shown. There are 4 "blocks" (I dislike this term as it is a signalling term - Paul Mallery suggested "section" since our control sections and prototype signal blocks do not line up) but ony two of them require assignment. turnout position handles power distribution to the other two.
The uppers sets of buttons are redundent set for the next town in each direction, allowing trains leaving this town to set the next "block" to their cab so that they can proceed. On the single track areas, "block" gaps are staggered, and each throttle has a discrete power supply, so without both "blocks" assigned to you cab, your train simply stops. Guess who popularized that idea? - John Allen.
This is just one of many succesful advanced cab control systems that make DC user interface easy.
Sheldon
TMarsh Personally, I've not seen a DCC only loco in my hobby shop. They are capable of running both DC and DCC. One loco appealling to both sets seems to be a good idea from a marketing and manufacturing standpoint. If you are DCC it fits, if you are DC it fits, if you are one wishing or planning to switch to the other, it fits. If you are DC and don't want to spend the few extra bucks for the decoder in some, you can choose the DCC ready, or if you have a preference for a different brand than installed you can choose DCC ready and install the one of your choosing.OR as someone said, sell the old decoder for a few bucks. Sounds like no sign of DC going away to me, just the manufacturers accomodating both sets and slimming production costs. Look at your car. You may not have some option, but usually you'll find the cars wiring harness will accommodate the option you do not have. More expensive per vehicle? Yes, but overall with all things considered, one wiring harness is cheaper than making and storing two. Same with the model locos.
Todd, Not universally true. Many dual mode decoders will not run, or not run well on advanced DC throttles that use pulse width modulation speed control (just like the output of a DCC decoder) to control train speed. So Decoders need to be removable and by passable.
Inexpensive dual mode setups like in the Bachmann GE 70 tonner literially will not run on my Aristo Train Engineer wireless throttles, they just sit there and go "buzzzzzz".
Better dual mode decoders will run, but speed control is poor. Remove the decoders and the locos run smoothly at one or two SMPH.
And the Aristo Train Engineer is only one of several pulse width throttles currently on the market.
Not to mention the fact that my testing shows even with convetional power packs like those from MRC, most locos run better without dual mode decoders.
That said, as long as they are removeable and bypassable like Bachmann does, and the decoder is not adding a ton to the price, that's fine with me. I take those Bachmann decoders out and sell them cheap on Ebay.
I for one, certainly hope DC does not disappear. I have an extremely small layout (4' x 6'). From what I can see, it would alot of work for me to convert it with little real personal benefit for me. Also, my hobby budget is relatively small so that most Atlas or Athearn DCC locomotives are beyond my budget.
Gentlemen,
I think we've been around the block a few times in this elevator already and the conversation is falling into its familiar furrow of discussion, which - by the way - has diverged from the OP. Whether DCC overtakes DC in popularity or not; DC will always be around in one way, shape, or form.
As others have said (or at least implied), either option is a personal choice for everyone and I would hope that we would all support one another - whichever side of the track we end up on. And, as I see it, we're still going the same direction on the same track in this beloved hobby of ours. We just have different needs, wants, and interests.
With that said, let's move on. Thanks for keeping things cordial - for the most part.
Tom
[locked]
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.