ATLANTIC CENTRAL Hal, I'm glad you like it, but "easier" is very SUBJECTIVE. What is easier for one is not necessarily so for others. I greatly dislike dealing with any large document on any type of computer screen format. And I have been using computers since the early 80's. Sheldon
Hal, I'm glad you like it, but "easier" is very SUBJECTIVE. What is easier for one is not necessarily so for others.
I greatly dislike dealing with any large document on any type of computer screen format. And I have been using computers since the early 80's.
Sheldon
Sheldon,
If you can purchase anything off a website you can purchase a book for the kindle. You select the book, click "1 click checkout" and you are done. It automatically downloads to your Kindle the next time you turn it on.
Kindles support bookmarks, notes, and keyword searching. You can easily download PDF's on them. (IE: Information station)
The displays are virtually indestructable. They are made from a flexible plastic unlike computer screens. I've seen video's where people burned them, folded them, sliced them with knives, and drilled them. And the display around the attacked areas STILL WORKS PERFECTLY.
If you don't believe me then watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiQBEPwEYMc
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
DigitalGriffin ATLANTIC CENTRAL: Hal, I'm glad you like it, but "easier" is very SUBJECTIVE. What is easier for one is not necessarily so for others. I greatly dislike dealing with any large document on any type of computer screen format. And I have been using computers since the early 80's. Sheldon Sheldon, If you can purchase anything off a website you can purchase a book for the kindle. You select the book, click "1 click checkout" and you are done. It automatically downloads to your Kindle the next time you turn it on. Kindles support bookmarks, notes, and keyword searching. You can easily download PDF's on them. (IE: Information station) The displays are virtually indestructable. They are made from a flexible plastic unlike computer screens. I've seen video's where people burned them, folded them, sliced them with knives, and drilled them. And the display around the attacked areas STILL WORKS PERFECTLY. If you don't believe me then watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiQBEPwEYMc
ATLANTIC CENTRAL: Hal, I'm glad you like it, but "easier" is very SUBJECTIVE. What is easier for one is not necessarily so for others. I greatly dislike dealing with any large document on any type of computer screen format. And I have been using computers since the early 80's. Sheldon
Don, I was not refering to that aspect of it. I dislike reading large documents on computer screens. The "page turning" or "page scrolling" of most document files is very anoying. I hate touch screen devices, I have never mastered the touch pad on a lap top, in fact I won't/can't use a lap top without a rodent and much prefer my desktop over any lap top I have ever seen.
I don't own and Ipod, camera phone, PDA, etc - I have no need for them and choose to keep my money in my pocket.
maxman NittanyLion: No, you're completely wrong. Absolutely and completely in every way. The cloud isn't a thing. Its a concept. Geographically dispersed and physically redundant. Its not a physical storage medium with a clearly defined, finite lifespan. Cloud storage exists independently of the medium its stored on. So, you're saying its vaporware?
NittanyLion: No, you're completely wrong. Absolutely and completely in every way. The cloud isn't a thing. Its a concept. Geographically dispersed and physically redundant. Its not a physical storage medium with a clearly defined, finite lifespan. Cloud storage exists independently of the medium its stored on.
No, you're completely wrong. Absolutely and completely in every way. The cloud isn't a thing. Its a concept. Geographically dispersed and physically redundant. Its not a physical storage medium with a clearly defined, finite lifespan. Cloud storage exists independently of the medium its stored on.
So, you're saying its vaporware?
.....No. Its already deployed and in service on a massive scale. Two products mentioned in this very thread already use a form of it.
Well Sheldon
I won't try to convice you otherwise. But the kindle is NOT a touchscreen device. It has dedicated buttons for turning pages on both sides. Like I said earlier, it is unique and totally unlike using a computer or laptop.
And the price of e books is significantly cheaper than their paperback versions. It will pay for itself within 10 e book purchases (typically)
DigitalGriffin Well Sheldon I won't try to convice you otherwise. But the kindle is NOT a touchscreen device. It has dedicated buttons for turning pages on both sides. Like I said earlier, it is unique and totally unlike using a computer or laptop. And the price of e books is significantly cheaper than their paperback versions. It will pay for itself within 10 e book purchases (typically)
Don, OK, what kind of books? I don't read fiction, I wait for the movie. I don't carry train magazines or paper backs around with me to "entertain" me while I wait at the dentist. I don't "sit" on the beach.
I buy train books, with big glossy historical pictures - color or b/w. I read books on politics. I buy all sorts of "reference" books for modeling and for my occupation as a Residential Designer - books on construction, architecture, historic buildings, etc. - again photos and drawings are an important part.
Will this thing help with any of that? Again, like all those other "gizmos" I doubt it benifits my life style.
Sheldon:
You seem to be functioning from the either/or perspective.
Hundreds of periodic publications publish both paper and e-book editions which are functionally identical. The best way to determine what the market wants is to publish both and track the sales of each. As long as both editions make a profit, both editions will be published. The only thing that will doom one edition or the other will be seriously declining sales.
Time will be the judge.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
I was thinking of the same thing. Corruption of data is one thing, but how about obsolescence of media? Books have been around for centuries, but how many of you can still read a 3 1/2 inch floppy disk? Worse, a 5 1/4? I just bought a DVD writer, because I need to transcribe a bunch of 8mm home video to DVD so we can actually watch them. I've still got that camera, but if it dies, I'm not sure I could get another one. Likewise, the old 16mm movies from my wife's childhood were professionally transcribed, but now they're on VHS, and will need to be copied to DVD as well.
As for "the cloud," I'm not convinced. Sure, I can actually find online scans of my college humor magazine from the 1960s. But I can't go back and look at my bank statements from a year ago.
Wait a few years. When you lose something, they'll be able to get it back for you. But there will be a "retrieval fee."
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Early in the thread I tried to answer some questions the originator of the thread had, on information about the use of e-books or Kindle. I could share the experience I had with my Kindle with him and others interested.
That has blossomed into an interesting full blown discussion going from "anything electronic is bad and not to be touched or forced" to "predictions on how the future will be a completely electronic driven information medium"...... and the "whole spectrum of opinions in-between".
I think it is great ...... only in America ..... and we're all free to speak up!
(Small note: I use a Kindle, computer, lap top, DCC, scanner, digital camera, electronic picture frame, and picture taking cell phone daily. I'm 77).
Hal
DigitalGriffin ... And the price of e books is significantly cheaper than their paperback versions. It will pay for itself within 10 e book purchases (typically)
...
At least on Amazon.com that's not always true. Paperbacks are sometimes cheaper.
Besides, I buy a lot of my books at the used bookstore at half or less of the cover price.
But really, if money is an issue go to your library and read for free.
Enjoy
Paul
IRONROOSTER But really, if money is an issue go to your library and read for free. Enjoy Paul
And you can do exactly that with most e-readers.
MisterBeasley I was thinking of the same thing. Corruption of data is one thing, but how about obsolescence of media? Books have been around for centuries, but how many of you can still read a 3 1/2 inch floppy disk? Worse, a 5 1/4? I just bought a DVD writer, because I need to transcribe a bunch of 8mm home video to DVD so we can actually watch them. I've still got that camera, but if it dies, I'm not sure I could get another one. Likewise, the old 16mm movies from my wife's childhood were professionally transcribed, but now they're on VHS, and will need to be copied to DVD as well.
Its frustrating to say the same thing over and over again. Format is irrelevant to this issue. You're confusing media with concept. Electronic data is not tied to format when dealing with enterprise level storage. End consumers do tie to format because we purchase something in a given format or store our own data in one format. If you purchase e-Model Railroader and its in, say, .EMR all you have to worry about is your ereader in 2011 or 2020 being able to read EMR files. File types are far more static than people want them to (for example, JPEGs have existed since 1992 and aren't going anywhere). Its likely a file type will rise to be the standard, like mp3 has.
Whatever format the backup out there in the ether is made of is not an issue at all. The concept has futureproofed itself. It doesnt matter if its tape or a RAID array or a billion floppies or some sort of quantum system that hasn't been invented yet, as long as the internet exists and your ereader can read the files. You just pull it from your backup, whereever that is. And if you're worried about data retrieval being impossible because of a company failing or a fee, back up the data yourself. All this stuff has already been worked out and in service for years.
NittanyLion Its frustrating to say the same thing over and over again. Format is irrelevant to this issue. You're confusing media with concept. Electronic data is not tied to format when dealing with enterprise level storage. End consumers do tie to format because we purchase something in a given format or store our own data in one format. If you purchase e-Model Railroader and its in, say, .EMR all you have to worry about is your ereader in 2011 or 2020 being able to read EMR files. File types are far more static than people want them to (for example, JPEGs have existed since 1992 and aren't going anywhere). Its likely a file type will rise to be the standard, like mp3 has. Whatever format the backup out there in the ether is made of is not an issue at all. The concept has futureproofed itself. It doesnt matter if its tape or a RAID array or a billion floppies or some sort of quantum system that hasn't been invented yet, as long as the internet exists and your ereader can read the files. You just pull it from your backup, whereever that is. And if you're worried about data retrieval being impossible because of a company failing or a fee, back up the data yourself. All this stuff has already been worked out and in service for years.
Don´t say anything....You work in the computer storage field?
The problem is that most people can´t even backup their IMPORTANT data, so how could you even think that it would work? And I see a future where everything costs money, not big amounts but a lot of small fees..... I guess that it will be the next class-thing.......
I said it earlier but I say it again; E-format works perfect for short storage media, like newspapers and fiction. When it comes to stuff that is more worthy to keep, it gets harder to justify the E-format.
BTW, when I do research I hate to use the computer as my work sheet, I prefer tabs in books and a big whiteboard! You can´t beat that interface!
Swedish Custom painter and model maker. My Website:
My Railroad
My Youtube:
Graff´s channel
donhalshanks I think it is great ...... only in America ..... and we're all free to speak up!
I agree. I still don't plan to get one anytime soon, but the thread has definitely cleared up some misconceptions I had about these devices.
OK!!!! All you kids get off my lawn.
It's been fun, but I'm out of here.
NittanyLion Its frustrating to say the same thing over and over again. Format is irrelevant to this issue. And if you're worried about data retrieval being impossible because of a company failing or a fee, back up the data yourself. All this stuff has already been worked out and in service for years.
Its frustrating to say the same thing over and over again. Format is irrelevant to this issue.
And if you're worried about data retrieval being impossible because of a company failing or a fee, back up the data yourself. All this stuff has already been worked out and in service for years.
But if you back stuff up yourself, format is an issue. Some years back, I bought a backup tape device. If I needed that information now, I could just take those tapes, put them back into the the reader and plug the parallel port connector into.....uh, where? They stopped installing parallel ports on computers years ago - it's all USB now. Right now, we're backing up to CD and DVD, but how long will it be before these media become obsolete? A thumb drive is already better than dealing with these spinning mechanisms and alignment-sensitive lasers. Saved hard drives? Do you think your next machine will come with an EIDE interface? My last scanner went in the trash not because of the interfaces, but because Windows XP stopped supporting the format.
Sure, it could work. And it's not going to ruin my life if they can't recover an article from MR from 3 years back, either. But, the history of fail-safe backups is not a particularly good one.
Hi!
I didn't read all the responses so as to not influence my comments....................
While I certainly don't care if anyone else wants to read their mags or anything else on an electronic whatever, I for one will never participate. I want my mags on paper and my books between covers.
Yes, I can see that the frequent traveler would enjoy having access to books, etc. wherever they go, and I think that is great - for them, but not for me. Frankly, if MR or any of the other mags I subscribe to were not in paper form, I would end my subscription.
By the way, why is it that so many polarizing questions come from a member's first or early posting?
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
I gotta say that I hate the Kindle, the Nook, et al, and I will never buy one. And yes, it's personal. They are hurting my parent's bookstore where I work, and pretty soon there won't be such a thing as a real, brick-&-mortar bookstore. We just can't compete in selection.
Sure, as used paperback bookstore, we're cheaper than Kindle (we'll gladly sell you a used $10 MSRP paperback for as little as $2.75 + tax). But we have, at most, 30,000 books in stock. That's a drop in the ocean compared to Amazon. And if people can't find what they want from us, they'll go online and probably stay there. How can we compete with that? Friendly service and lower prices only go so far. We even have accounts at Abebooks, Biblio, and Alibris where we can list some of our stock online, but then there are so many millions of entries there, selling a copy of one of our books there is random chance.
It's bad enough that people aren't reading books like they used to, being more entertained by computers and cell phones. Now with the Kindle, even those who do still read are turning away from physical books.
Yeah, yeah, I know about buggy whip makers and all that, but it's a little different when you're in the bookstore business and you see all these comments from people who are loving the fact that they are putting you out of business. It makes me sick. It's even more fun when people come in and tell you to your face that they won't be back because they got a Kindle for Christmas.
But the worst are those people that come in and shop for an hour or more. They make a list of everything they like. Then they leave, saying, "Ok, we can go now. I've got everything I want to download on my Kindle." That's happened more than once. You can't say anything, but boy-o-boy do you want to kick people out of your store forever when they do that.
Paul A. Cutler III
Paul,
I sure can relate! From 1948 to 1958 my parents had a grocery store in Chicago.
The only way we could make any money was to stay open from 6 to 9 SEVEN days a week - which was unheard of. Anyway, the local folks would come in and buy their bread and milk and emergency stuff, but did their big shopping at one of the "newfangled" supermarkets 4 blocks away. I could understand that - to a point. What got my irritated was the folks that insisted on free delivery, tipped the wonderful delivery boy (me) little or nothing, and then "charged it".
Yes, when we sold the store in 1958 there were a lot of people that owed us money that we never got. Of course there was no legal recourse (and I doubt my parents would have taken it), for everything was on a "handshake" term.
Sadly, one of our neighborhood bookstores is going out of business as well, and you have my sympathy. But its a common story, especially since the advent of the Walmarts and big box stores and super chains.
MisterBeasley NittanyLion: Its frustrating to say the same thing over and over again. Format is irrelevant to this issue. And if you're worried about data retrieval being impossible because of a company failing or a fee, back up the data yourself. All this stuff has already been worked out and in service for years. But if you back stuff up yourself, format is an issue. Some years back, I bought a backup tape device. If I needed that information now, I could just take those tapes, put them back into the the reader and plug the parallel port connector into.....uh, where? They stopped installing parallel ports on computers years ago - it's all USB now. Right now, we're backing up to CD and DVD, but how long will it be before these media become obsolete? A thumb drive is already better than dealing with these spinning mechanisms and alignment-sensitive lasers. Saved hard drives? Do you think your next machine will come with an EIDE interface? My last scanner went in the trash not because of the interfaces, but because Windows XP stopped supporting the format. Sure, it could work. And it's not going to ruin my life if they can't recover an article from MR from 3 years back, either. But, the history of fail-safe backups is not a particularly good one.
NittanyLion: Its frustrating to say the same thing over and over again. Format is irrelevant to this issue. And if you're worried about data retrieval being impossible because of a company failing or a fee, back up the data yourself. All this stuff has already been worked out and in service for years.
Mr. B
If you are like me, and it sounds like you are, you have many memories and data you want to save forever. I'm not talking about a magazine, I mean wedding pictures, videos and the like. Because of this I am keenly aware of the importance of backups, what ever the format or media I choose. But one thing I do is to stay on top of the latest technology. I don't worry about my VHS's becoming unreadable because I have already converted them to DVD's and also MP4s saved to a firewire hardrive(s) USB and Firewire HD's are mega cheap. If a new technology takes over, I will eventually convert my treasures to whatever that will be. my point is being aware is the most important step, which you already are. The only reason people "lose everything" is because of they did not have a backup routine, either because of ignorance or laziness, either way, it won't happen to me.
To everyone else, As far as electronic media, I say bring it on. I can actually listen to my 2506 songs, watch one of my 168 movies, or listen to one of the 65 model railroad podcasts, while at home, while driving, on a flight, mowing my lawn, fishing, etc, and it all fits in my pocket in the form of an IPOD Classic. When I pick my IPAD (or a newer more powerful tablet of some make) I will be able to do all of this and read my favorite MRR mag, anytime, anyplace.
Print media will be the minority soon, TV and movies will be next, it's all going to change folks, like it or not. I had to laugh about a comment made earlier stating "the mailman is coming anyway". How much longer will mailboxes be needed? Things that make you go hmmmmm.
I love technology, and embrace it. Change is inevitable, lead. follow, or get out of the way.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Phoebe Vet IRONROOSTER: But really, if money is an issue go to your library and read for free. Enjoy Paul And you can do exactly that with most e-readers.
IRONROOSTER: But really, if money is an issue go to your library and read for free. Enjoy Paul
My understanding is that is only true for books with expired copyrights, old books, or unpopular books released to the public domain. Current works, especially popular ones, have to be paid for. But at the library that's not an issue, you can borrow the latest best sellers. Also you borrow from and loan to friends, relatives, etc.
Hey, what happened to page 6???
Mark
Your on it, Mark.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Graffen NittanyLion: Its frustrating to say the same thing over and over again. Format is irrelevant to this issue. You're confusing media with concept. Electronic data is not tied to format when dealing with enterprise level storage. End consumers do tie to format because we purchase something in a given format or store our own data in one format. If you purchase e-Model Railroader and its in, say, .EMR all you have to worry about is your ereader in 2011 or 2020 being able to read EMR files. File types are far more static than people want them to (for example, JPEGs have existed since 1992 and aren't going anywhere). Its likely a file type will rise to be the standard, like mp3 has. Whatever format the backup out there in the ether is made of is not an issue at all. The concept has futureproofed itself. It doesnt matter if its tape or a RAID array or a billion floppies or some sort of quantum system that hasn't been invented yet, as long as the internet exists and your ereader can read the files. You just pull it from your backup, whereever that is. And if you're worried about data retrieval being impossible because of a company failing or a fee, back up the data yourself. All this stuff has already been worked out and in service for years. Don´t say anything....You work in the computer storage field? The problem is that most people can´t even backup their IMPORTANT data, so how could you even think that it would work? And I see a future where everything costs money, not big amounts but a lot of small fees..... I guess that it will be the next class-thing....... I said it earlier but I say it again; E-format works perfect for short storage media, like newspapers and fiction. When it comes to stuff that is more worthy to keep, it gets harder to justify the E-format. BTW, when I do research I hate to use the computer as my work sheet, I prefer tabs in books and a big whiteboard! You can´t beat that interface!
NittanyLion: Its frustrating to say the same thing over and over again. Format is irrelevant to this issue. You're confusing media with concept. Electronic data is not tied to format when dealing with enterprise level storage. End consumers do tie to format because we purchase something in a given format or store our own data in one format. If you purchase e-Model Railroader and its in, say, .EMR all you have to worry about is your ereader in 2011 or 2020 being able to read EMR files. File types are far more static than people want them to (for example, JPEGs have existed since 1992 and aren't going anywhere). Its likely a file type will rise to be the standard, like mp3 has. Whatever format the backup out there in the ether is made of is not an issue at all. The concept has futureproofed itself. It doesnt matter if its tape or a RAID array or a billion floppies or some sort of quantum system that hasn't been invented yet, as long as the internet exists and your ereader can read the files. You just pull it from your backup, whereever that is. And if you're worried about data retrieval being impossible because of a company failing or a fee, back up the data yourself. All this stuff has already been worked out and in service for years.
I'm about as electronic-friendly as they come, I work and advocate the electronic future-- and yet I couldn't agree with you more. My own personal preference for working and brainstorming is the big white board. I have yet to discover anything electronic nearly as versatile and *usable* for hammering out ideas.
In our household we have media servers that I have built which store and manage our various media collections: music, books, photos, etc. The servers are redundantly configured and the storage on each is mirrored, and all have their own dedicated computer-grade electrical circuits and uninterruptable power supplies. Back in the summer we experienced an enormous lightning event that struck nearby-- which set the neighbor's house across the street on fire and gutted it. Needless to say everything electronic in our house freaked out. Fortunately most of it survived. All of the computers had to be rebooted of course, even the ones on the uninterruptable power supplies. But one of the hard drives in one the servers took a hit and it is toast. Fortunately the fact that it was mirrored saved the data-- this time.
But the whole experience got my wife and I to thinking about the prospect of external (outside the house / "Cloud"-based) storage. We looked into it and there are a number of options and services to choose from-- but the thing that really struck us was the requirement to "pick and choose" the information and data that was important enough to us to fund it's "indefinite storage"-- er, indefinitely. And not only just that, but also the prospect that we will continue to produce data that-- if we buy into the concept-- we'll need to add to the bill. So that "data storage" fees soon become a regular monthly "utility" bill.
And that's where we balked. And we are a very computer and electronics-savvy household. I have been aware of and understood the "data-format obsolescence" problem for a very long time. To the point I have procedures for periodically migrating important data to new formats for storage and making sure I keep requisite hardware around for accessing presently stored data for as long as we have it in that format. And like the other poster who mentioned it, we've gone from vinyl to cassettes to CD's to MP3's (well, actually a lossless format); from 8 and 16mm film, VHS tapes, DVD's etc ripped to disk; All (most) of our photos digitally scanned and the newest ones taken with digital cameras and DSLR's, etc., Important documents scanned and stored-- its not an easy thing to keep up with. And there's always the fear of some catastrophic event, such as the one that occurred over the summer, wiping everything out. There is no cheap nor easy one-size-fits-all answer and the more you "invest" in the "electronic frontier", in many ways, the more succeptable you become to its downside-- the lack of electrons (one way or another).
As I wrote in a previous post, I prefer turning pages. Currently there is no "E-Reader" format (that I'm aware of) on the market that provides that paradigm, though I do believe it is emergence is inevitable. Until that happens, no matter how well "digitized" we are, I will still strongly prefer real books over their electronic cousins. I also generally prefer "photo albums" that you can browse sitting beside your kids or your grandma so you can tell or listen to the stories that surround them. That's an element that's-- ironically-- being subtly lost in this bold new electronic future. In order to utilize the content, you have to huddle around a computer screen or else something electronic.
Cloud-based storage and ultra-cheap solid-state storage devices may ultimately prove to be the answers to the issues above. Ubiquitous readers and access devices may resolve some of the issues surrounding access and integration into the "non-electronic" world. But the issues of format obsolescence are not going to go away easily, nor for some foreseeable time into the future-- not as long as there is money and profit to be made from the turnover. Too many companies have bought into and owe their existence to King Gillette-- give away the razor, make 'em pay for the blades-- for this issue to go away any time soon.
John
Wow - 6 pages! Is there anything that has not yet been said?
Sir Madog Wow - 6 pages! Is there anything that has not yet been said?
Well, I guess I could add that I would have a lot more confidence in data storage devices if they were made by Kadee...
IRONROOSTER And you can do exactly that with most e-readers. My understanding is that is only true for books with expired copyrights, old books, or unpopular books released to the public domain. Current works, especially popular ones, have to be paid for. But at the library that's not an issue, you can borrow the latest best sellers. Also you borrow from and loan to friends, relatives, etc. Enjoy Paul
That is true of the free e-books from the book stores, but not for e-books borrowed from the library. The Nook, e-reader also allows you to loan one of your purchased books to someone else for up to 14 days. There is no charge for that service.
http://downloads.cmlibrary.org/237CABF9-6381-46B6-AF14-398DAA82A6E8/10/393/en/BrowseeBooks.htm
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/u/nookcolor-feature-lendme/379002481/?cds2Pid=35700