I just received my copy of the February 2011 MR and was fascinated by the feature on Rick Van Laar´s superbly done Rosston, Joelberg & Holly RR. He impressively shows, that you can build a great layout in a small space and that a 4 by 8 does not need to be a boring Plywood Pacific RR.
We all know, that a 4 by 8 may not be the best footprint for a layout and that it is only seemingly small in size, but this feature, and the following track plan ideas for 4 by 8´s, will certainly inspire a number of people who do not have the space and the funds to build a basement filling empire.
"Real values come in small packages"!
Well done, MR!
As long as there is plywood there will be 4x8 layouts. My current layout is being built on 4 4x8 sections which has it's pluses and minuses. Minus is long reach to back of layout, need to keep access in mind, pluses is it allows for lots of scenery and allows my interchanges to be "live" as in different trains can appear in them and more trains can come and go to staging, still an easily transportable size if one needs to move a 4x8 etc etc etc
About time someone spotlighted this looked down upon size that most everyone probably started with.
Modeling the Cleveland and Pittsburgh during the PennCentral era starting on the Cleveland lakefront and ending in Mingo junction
Ulrich,That's no breaking news story to me because I am among the few supporters of 4x8' layouts.
---------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------
Absolutely if one thinks outside of the box of 4x8' planning like Mr.Van Laar.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
I could only hope to have a 4x8!
Right now my 3.5 foot x 5.1 foot HO layout will have to do.
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
My childhood 4x8 lives on -- when my mom sold the house I took the layout and cut the top into 2' x 4' pieces -- 16 linear feet of David Barrow style domino layout segments. It was easy because my dad had previously had to cut the 4x8 into two in the backyard just to get it down our basement steps (we are talking circa 1959 or so).
Tony Koester once pointed out that cutting a 4x8 lengthwise can create the material for a surprisingly spacious and versatile L shaped linear layout.
Dave Nelson
I was quite impressed by that article. One of the issues most folks do not think about is the actual 'space requirements' that the 4 by 8 requires. I think most of us think of shoving the layout against a corner. As seen in this layout, one needs to have space on 'both' of the long sides of this layout to use it. The advantage is that you have two sides of layout to work with. The negative is that you can really eat up a room fast providing that access.
Of course an 'around the walls' layout 2' wide will yield even better space management, but many time will need to be 'attached' to the walls(a real problem with apartments).
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
I have to admit when I 1st saw the article I figured it was N scale... To my surprise HO! Very well thought out and shows us "4x8 Nay Sayers" that good things come in small pakages. Well Done!!
Fergie
http://www.trainboard.com/railimages/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=5959
If one could roll back the hands of time... They would be waiting for the next train into the future. A. H. Francey 1921-2007
I am right there with you...my layout plans have been altered and I now will be building a 3'x5.5' HO layout. I will be using 15" radi curves but figure it will work out just fine.
Amazingly I was able to contain the same functions in this 3'x5.5' footprint as I had in the 4x8.
Kevin
--------------------------
I know a few cases where the modelers sufficient other simply said NO! to the idea of putting holes in "their" wall..
I was witness to one and left the area spook when my friend and I was talking about around the wall layout.
His missus face became distorted as she said in no certain terms-Don't even think or even talk about putting holes in "my" walls.I could have sworn her eyes became red and sent lightening bolts toward my friend.
The good news he built his around the wall layout without touching "her walls"..He use 18" x 5' modulars.
One important thing I have noticed over the years is that most small layouts are very highly detailed vs the large basement empires.
Naturally there are always exceptions to this but for the most part the smaller the layout the greater the detail.
Mark
Forty Niner One important thing I have noticed over the years is that most small layouts are very highly detailed vs the large basement empires. Naturally there are always exceptions to this but for the most part the smaller the layout the greater the detail. Mark
An astute and accurate observation. Personnally, I cannot tell you how many basement-filling "Benchwork Empires" and "Plywood Pacifics" I've seen over the years, vs. beautifully executed and finished smaller pikes. Of course, there are dramatic exceptions in both cases, but overall that's indeed how things do play out , particularly if the hobbyist is working totally alone.
Undoubtedly a factor in this situation and one all too often overlooked, is that the larger the layout, the greater the time it needs devoted to maintanence. I regularly operate on a friend's basement-filling empire and for every OPS session we have about two more work sessions are required to keep things running smoothly. In contrast, my 14x14 home layout can often go a couple months before much of anything needs working on.
Another point worth mentioning concerning this topic comes from the pages of MR a while back. It indicated that something like 75% of all the layouts ever built are 4x8's, whether by beginners, or advanced hobbyists. Thus, those of us with fancier arrangements, particularly those having pikes of truly larger dimensions, or complexity, are in a distinct minority in the hobby.
CNJ831
An astute and accurate observation. Personnally, I cannot tell you how many basement-filling "Benchwork Empires" I've seen over the years, vs. beautifully executed and finished smaller pikes. Of course, there are dramatic exceptions in both cases, but overall that's indeed how things do play out , particularly if the hobbyist is working totally alone.
Mark,One of the most beautiful layouts I ever seen was a HO 30" x 14' ISL..
The detail on that layout is phenomenal and fully realistic for a industrial area..He has trash in the dumpsters,light rail(C55?),a trailer drop lot,the access roads look rough from truck traffic,broken skids,stacks of old cardboard,weeds,scrub trees,security fences etc.
It took him 9 or 10 weekends to get the layout up and running and the scenery took several years to complete and he still adds to it..
jrbernier I was quite impressed by that article. One of the issues most folks do not think about is the actual 'space requirements' that the 4 by 8 requires. I think most of us think of shoving the layout against a corner. As seen in this layout, one needs to have space on 'both' of the long sides of this layout to use it. The advantage is that you have two sides of layout to work with. The negative is that you can really eat up a room fast providing that access. Of course an 'around the walls' layout 2' wide will yield even better space management, but many time will need to be 'attached' to the walls(a real problem with apartments).
Well, just to nitpick a little - 2 feet is actually fairly deep.
The desk my computer sits on is 2 feet deep (as is my kitchen counters). My computer desk is standing on four narrow metal legs, is not attached to the walls, but is still not wobbling around when I work at the table.
These FREMO sections are not so deep either - and they are freestanding on legs on the floor:
(images linked from the web page of Arendal Model Railroad club in Norway) - the setup is from a FREMO meet an airplane museum at Oslo Airport in 2007 - more pics here: http://www.autoclassic.no/amjk/2007%20Gardermoen.htm
Grin,Stein
Stein,Remember there is some inherited problems with sectional around the wall layout that some may not want to deal with and then there's those pesty joiner tracks for each modular.
I was taken with this layout, all that detail and trackage in a 4' x 8' space. Normally I would stay away from a 4' x 8' layout.
You can not duplicate the running capabilites on a 2' wide layout. The return trackage being out of site (under ground) allows continuous running. The backdrop for splitting the scenes allows so much more layout to be utilized in such a small area.
I have enough space in my family room to build a 4'x8' layout based on this track plan. It will be for my Shays and Heislers in a logging and mining layout.
The main layout is in the rec room and measures 12' x 8', it is a U shaped layout.
wow, I had to check if I was on the right forum, I offer sincere apologies to every member here, awhile back someone asked if this forum had gotten "better" (better being relative mind you). I grumbled and groused that it hadn't really, but most people believed that it had.
This thread has completely reversed my opinion and and I readily admit, I was wrong. Several years ago the mention of a 4 x 8 layout was met with a very high degree of negativity to say the least, and sometimes questioning the builders heritage/skill/manhood/etc. I remember some experts reckoned the only reason a man would have a 4 x 8 is because he can't use a saw!
I have not seen the issue and layout in MRR, but I will go down and pick one up asap. Again, there will be some that will post in this thread expressing a different opinion on the 4 x8 , and that is fine, but the way a differing opinion is expressed here is what has changed, and with that, hats off to the forum members. (and the moderators)
GS...4 x 8 constructor, 4 years and running, I love my layout, and I operate it.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
don7 I was taken with this layout, all that detail and trackage in a 4' x 8' space. Normally I would stay away from a 4' x 8' layout. You can not duplicate the running capabilites on a 2' wide layout. The return trackage being out of site (under ground) allows continuous running. The backdrop for splitting the scenes allows so much more layout to be utilized in such a small area.
It certainly is an attractive looking layout.
Not sure that it actually uses "such a small area", though. You will still need 10 x 8 feet of floor space for a 4x8 with access to both sides, i.e 83% of the floor space you use for your 12 x 8 foot U-shaped layout. Or put another way - you need to add 48 square feet of aisles to have 32 square feet of layout :-)
But as you say - an advantage of the 4x8 footprint is that it allows continuous run in a fairly straightforward way, provided you respect the curve radius limitations introduced by the need to fit the turn back curves into 4 feet of depth.
And for some room configurations, the aisles can be dual-purpose - also be used when using the room for other purposes.
To do continuous run in H0 scale on narrower tables/shelves, you either need to add deeper blobs for the turn back curves, to have the tables or shelves themselves form a closed loop (e.g. around the walls or around the operator), or model some kind of operation where the traffic is back and forth (with an automatic reverser when the train gets to the end of the track).
Smile, Stein
For many of us, that's one of the trade offs.
I remember a few years back when Dave Barrow had a article in MRP 2004 showing a minimalist layout - it didn't even include roadbed. It was criticized by many, but it did allow a large layout to be operational in a year.
If you read Model Railroading with John Allen by Linn H. Westcott (sadly out of print) you'll see some great scenery, but you'll find that even after 20 years the mainline wasn't completed.
So while I thoroughly enjoyed the article and layout, I'm going for operational first in my basement layout. But that's the great thing about the hobby, there are many ways to enjoy it, all of which are good.
Enjoy
Paul
Really, there are a couple of obvious solutions to the "space requirement" for a 4x8. While you do need some space around it to actually operate it or work on it, you do NOT require that space for storage. Casters -- or even just a lightweight design that can easily be moved, enables you to shove it into a corner when not in use. I've also seen ones attached to a wall that fold up like a hide-a-bed, and ones that can be raised on pulleys.
Or, you can use one of these:
I got one because my layout has two 3 x 4 lobes at the end, but this enables me to reach the center with ease, without fear of wiping out my layout.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
I haven't seen the article yet but look forward to reading it.
I have a 4x8 and find comments that such a plan wastes spaces make assumptions about the room used that may not always be correct. In my case one side aisle also is access to a bookcase, the other side to the furnace room and the wall on that side contains a bar. The layout is in a large room(600 S.F.) that has other uses, many cupboards, doors, and a fireplace so around the walls is out of the question and even against the wall isn't possible.
So in some cases a 4x8 or similar is the only option.
CN Charlie
Even though my Cascade Valley RR sits in a 900 sqare foot basement, it is still occupying the same 4x8 piece of plywood that it started out on nearly 50 years ago. Currently in its fifth regeneration, the track plan is only somewhat modified from its origins in Linn Westcott's " HO Railroad that Grows".The layout has moved several times, including one dark period of time underneath the hayloft of a barn.
From a self interest standpoint, it is gratifying to see the effort put into appreciating the format.Just like the other forms that are part of the hobby, there is a lot of different ways to do great work in modeling smaller layouts. Part of what makes a 4x8 worth modeling is the ease of operating and maintaining the layout with one owner /operator in charge. Another aspect is the relative ease of having a railroad that can be built and grown over time , even if resources of time, energy, finances or talent are somewhat limited.
Each time that I have rebuilt the layout, I find that I can improve its concept, improve the operations, encrust the layout with a better depth of detail, and generally make the railroad a source of delight in this old world. There is nothing quite like fetching the grand daughters over and wacthing them see what's new in town since their last visit to add a bit of fresh cheer in one's life.
I didn't have enough room to build a four by eight foot layout, so instead I built a three and a half by six foot layout. I've had it since 1997.