A logo is just that - a logo. Ask 2 people and you get three opinions on its appeal. Whether the NMRA´s ne logo is "improved" lies in the eyes of the beholder.
This is an old thread which got resurrected, but I can hardly detect any new arguments. Let´s close the book on it now.
Hi Massey
I did not mean to imply that we can't be proud of the hobby. I certainly am! And, yes I know that Jay Leno's ribbing of Rod Stewart was all done in good fun.
I was trying to make the point that the new NMRA logo may do more harm than good.
Dave
I'm just a dude with a bad back having a lot of fun with model trains, and finally building a layout!
I can only hope the the NMRA gets around to re-redesigning their logo and free up the current one for my own HO scale short line.
John
If everybody is thinking alike, then nobody is really thinking.
http://photobucket.com/tandarailroad/
Ok John
The main reason I decided to not renew my membership in the NMRA was the tone of a significant number of the letters to the editor. During my subscription period (2 years) there seemed to be a lot of writers whose comments had a rather nasty attitude towards things written by other writers or towards articles in the magazine. Several letters definately had a negative "I'm right - your wrong and if you aren't doing it my way you don't know what you are doing" overtone. The fact that the NMRA editors decided to publish these types of letters turned me off the organization.
Please understand that I do not have a problem with anyone who models in accurate detail. I also fully support the common theme of these forums which is to help other model railroaders. My point is that, as is almost always the case in these forums, the help should be offered in a positive and supportive tone.
Having said that, some of you will note that the tone of my previous post wasn't particularly positve. I chose my words to try to convey the point that the new logo is very poorly designed. Unlike having the wrong bell on your steamer or the wrong air horns on your diesel the logo mistake will have a direct negative impact on the perception of the hobby by a significant portion of the general public. Is that what the NMRA wants? I sincerely doubt it.
So it seems that just because some one made a joke about some one else's hobby it means we cant be proud of it all. Hell Leno was making jokes about himself when his steam powered car broke down on him and then when it caught fire while he was trying to get it going again. If ya cant take a joke then you need to relax a little... really.
Now the logo as it shows is a miserable creation. But with a couple of extra lines it looks really nice. And since the person who made the modifications has given premission here in writing for another to submit it then lets see about submitting it. My writing skills are not great so I dont feel I can present a strong enough letter.
Massey
A Veteran, whether active duty, retired, national guard, or reserve, is someone who, at one point in his or her life, wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America" for an amount of "up to and including my life."
hon30critter GUYS (and GIRLS!) The new logo is a disaster waiting to happen! It looks like a "b**b" and it was designed by a "b**b"! The point is very clear. Many, many people will misinterpret it and most of the others won't have a clue. You can argue the merits of the new design for as long and as loud as you want but ANY logo that is ambiguous is a bad logo. It is clearly open to misinterpretation. Model railroaders have had more than their share of fun poked at them just for participating in the hobby. Jay Leno did it to Rod Stewart. Why set ourselves up for a fall?!? I'll even go so far as to put my money where my mouth is. If the NMRA rethinks the new logo and comes up with a better one then I will rejoin the organization. Don't ask why I quit the first time - that is a whole other topic. Dave
GUYS (and GIRLS!)
The new logo is a disaster waiting to happen! It looks like a "b**b" and it was designed by a "b**b"!
The point is very clear. Many, many people will misinterpret it and most of the others won't have a clue.
You can argue the merits of the new design for as long and as loud as you want but ANY logo that is ambiguous is a bad logo. It is clearly open to misinterpretation. Model railroaders have had more than their share of fun poked at them just for participating in the hobby. Jay Leno did it to Rod Stewart. Why set ourselves up for a fall?!?
I'll even go so far as to put my money where my mouth is. If the NMRA rethinks the new logo and comes up with a better one then I will rejoin the organization. Don't ask why I quit the first time - that is a whole other topic.
So Dave,
Ummm... why did you quit the first time..??
If someone in the NMRA wants to submit it, be my guest. I'm not joining any more groups now or in the future.
Have fun with your trains
vsmith, I like it a lot. As a NMRA member I also wish they would have given the members a chance to see what was going on before the final decision.
Ken G Price My N-Scale Layout
Digitrax Super Empire Builder Radio System. South Valley Texas Railroad. SVTRR
N-Scale out west. 1996-1998 or so! UP, SP, Missouri Pacific, C&NW.
SMassey OK I like the modified logo. That to me shows a freight truck and says trains and it even fits with the scheme of the NMRA.ORG Maybe you should submit this modification to the NMRA and also direct them to this forum and show the dislike of the new unimproved logo. Massey
OK I like the modified logo. That to me shows a freight truck and says trains and it even fits with the scheme of the NMRA.ORG
Maybe you should submit this modification to the NMRA and also direct them to this forum and show the dislike of the new unimproved logo.
Yup, that's probably a good idea. I'll betcha anything they don't have a clue that there's any controversy...
vsmith 5 seconds with a editing program and: There, certainly clearer now its train related, at least to me, but then I wasn't on the "design review commitee" now was I?
5 seconds with a editing program and:
There, certainly clearer now its train related, at least to me, but then I wasn't on the "design review commitee" now was I?
Now *that* is a Wheel Logo!
The NMRA should have at least put a few potential logo options to vote on in thier own magazine publication and encouraged members to vote. Had they taken the time to poll members, the reason they have gotten where they are today, I cant imagine that logo would have gotten a very high percentage of votes. That logo just tells me the powers that be in the NMRA just took it on themselves to decide which logo is right for the organization. Even though I do find memberships a bit overpriced. I like the NMRA. This logo decision however, was a poor decision IMO.
Silverbackman ... And finally, the NMRA needs to spell out 'National Model Railway Association' each and every time it advertises, logo or not. The reason being; it's only one letter different from the National Rifleman's Association! And at the risk of stereotyping, outside of America, that's a problem. Most people are going to associate NMRA as a division of the NRA. Like guns or hate them (I personally don't have an issue with them, it's the person holding it that is the issue), every effort should be made to make the distinction between NMRA and the NRA. In my opinion (which is all I have) and as a Canadian, most parents aren't going to let there kids go onto a website if is associated with weapons, pro or against. Without even trying, an entire generation of modelers are immediately excluded. Just my 2 cents....
...
And finally, the NMRA needs to spell out 'National Model Railway Association' each and every time it advertises, logo or not. The reason being; it's only one letter different from the National Rifleman's Association! And at the risk of stereotyping, outside of America, that's a problem. Most people are going to associate NMRA as a division of the NRA. Like guns or hate them (I personally don't have an issue with them, it's the person holding it that is the issue), every effort should be made to make the distinction between NMRA and the NRA. In my opinion (which is all I have) and as a Canadian, most parents aren't going to let there kids go onto a website if is associated with weapons, pro or against. Without even trying, an entire generation of modelers are immediately excluded.
Just my 2 cents....
Well, first of all it's National Model Railroad Association not Railway. So I guess you're right, they do need to spell it out more.
Second, I have never talked to anyone who confused this with the gun guys (even if there is a Bullet Train ) In fact you are the first to make any connection between the two. Even a cursory look by a parent at the NMRA's site would reassure them.
My experience at train shows is that steam locomotives blowing smoke and whistle attracts a lot of kids. And now with sound the steam locomotive is miles ahead of the diesel.
Many logos, symbols, etc don't really tell you who the company is - it's the advertising using the logo and the name that creates the connection. Frankly, I never thought the NMRA needed to change.
Oh and
Enjoy
Paul
NMRA member since 1972
Love the hobby shop name. Another thing as far as logos go take a look at Jwhitten's avatar. That logo says alot. PRR for Pensylvainia Rail Road and the logo is in the shape of a keystone. most people recognise a keystone as the stone that holds an arch structure together and that means support, strength, and for many years the PRR was the backbone of the rail industry that supported this country. That logo was designed 130 years ago and it still has meaning today. That is saying something. NMRA are you listening?
SMassey Going to throw my $.02 in the pot as well. The old logo to me at first thought was a wagon wheel and an odd looking wrench. I never got the chance to see a steam engine in action so seeing the driver wheel did not relate to me. As a kid my engines were diesel and they had horn hook couplers (only kind you could get back then) and the real looking coupler didnt click with me. Now that I know more about trains I easily recognise these things for what they are. How many kids do not know what these were? I am going to guess quite a few. Does the new logo represent a train feature we all can easily recognise? Nope they missed the train on that one. I picked up on what it was right away, I also picked up on what it could have been pretty quick too. This logo does not say train. The first Amtrak logo to me did not say train to me it was more of an arrow. The new logo to me says tracks leading over the horizon and that to me means the train can go anywhere. Well done Amtrak. Some one needs to do this with the NMRA logo so not only can we recognise it (and be happy to wear it) but others who see it can say it has to do with trains. I am going to guess that there are quite a few people out there that like trains and would possibly like to not only learn about real trains but maybe build a layout or what not that do not have a clue where to start, nor would they after seeing this logo. Massey
Going to throw my $.02 in the pot as well. The old logo to me at first thought was a wagon wheel and an odd looking wrench. I never got the chance to see a steam engine in action so seeing the driver wheel did not relate to me. As a kid my engines were diesel and they had horn hook couplers (only kind you could get back then) and the real looking coupler didnt click with me. Now that I know more about trains I easily recognise these things for what they are. How many kids do not know what these were? I am going to guess quite a few. Does the new logo represent a train feature we all can easily recognise? Nope they missed the train on that one. I picked up on what it was right away, I also picked up on what it could have been pretty quick too. This logo does not say train. The first Amtrak logo to me did not say train to me it was more of an arrow. The new logo to me says tracks leading over the horizon and that to me means the train can go anywhere. Well done Amtrak. Some one needs to do this with the NMRA logo so not only can we recognise it (and be happy to wear it) but others who see it can say it has to do with trains. I am going to guess that there are quite a few people out there that like trains and would possibly like to not only learn about real trains but maybe build a layout or what not that do not have a clue where to start, nor would they after seeing this logo.
Yes, I agree. If you ask me, the logo looks more like the logo for "HOoters HObby sHOp"...
No joke intended, but if MR had more covers like that, with appropropriatly attired operators in the layout visit shots, you'd get a lot more young readers. Look at the magazine rack at most bookstores -- how many of the R/C car and airplane mags have exactly that on the cover? Hotrod mags? Fly fishing has April Volkey holding a trout about every other month.
Not the direction I'd hope to go, but looking back at the old cover shots on the MR CD collection a great many were of happy modelers doing something with their trains and a lot of those covers were of females, childrens spouses, etc enjoying as well. Something to be said for presenting the hobby as a family activity for everyone, of all classes, instead of only for the upper financial class with plenty of time on their hands. (Which, not to take away from the great model work, can be the unintentional message when most issues are filled with layouts that are beyond most people.)
jim
vsmith Dayliner: I used to pride myself on my dirty mind, but I must be growing old because when I saw the new NMRA logo all I saw was a train wheel. Really. Maybe we're seeing what we want to see here? I'm reminded of the Onion's "Model Railroader--the sex issue" of a few years back. Was that this one?
Dayliner: I used to pride myself on my dirty mind, but I must be growing old because when I saw the new NMRA logo all I saw was a train wheel. Really. Maybe we're seeing what we want to see here? I'm reminded of the Onion's "Model Railroader--the sex issue" of a few years back.
I used to pride myself on my dirty mind, but I must be growing old because when I saw the new NMRA logo all I saw was a train wheel. Really. Maybe we're seeing what we want to see here? I'm reminded of the Onion's "Model Railroader--the sex issue" of a few years back.
Was that this one?
OMG OMG (I hope that means what I think it means?!?)
WHERE CAN I GET THIS MODEL IN 1:24 SCALE?
And by the way, not that anyone called and asked me, but in my opinion the new logo makes about as much sense as those television commercials that don't tell you what they're advertising.
The St. Francis Consolidated Railroad of the Colorado Rockies
Denver, Colorado
Good comments there. I'd have to say I pretty much agree with you. I sometimes jokingly refer to the NMRA as the "National Model Rifle Association"... kidding of course, but I 'spect we've all noticed the similarity.
Weighing in on an old topic (but new to me).
After reading the entire post, I noticed that the arguments became a little skewed. Yes, the common theme of the image is there, and I feel it has its merits. However NMRA (note the case) stated that they changed the logo to try and appeal to the younger generation of modelers. The comments of "if you are into trains you'd see it", "train people know what the nmra is" or "if your not into trains, why would you be going to that site?" are completely opposite of the NMRA's goals with the logo change. They changed it to potentially attract more members.
As for the logo offending someone, good luck trying not to. It doesn't matter what you say, do or imply, someone, somewhere will be offended.
As for my 2 cents...yup, the logo missed the mark. Wheel, b**b, owl eye, moons...it's just not there. It needs to be more obvious. And by not having the actual organizations title (National Model Railroad Association) ranks as a miss too. Again, the premise was to attract new and younger members. There is absolutely nothing there to make someone want to got to the site. It doesn't make me go "hey, that's cool, it has to do with trains, I'm gonna check it out", nor does it make me say "wow, that's different, I wonder what it has to do with, I'm gonna check that site out". What it does do is re-enforce the "if you have to ask, it's not for you" stereotype. Score one for the old boys club.
What I will say is that they are on the right track (pun, half intended). The NMRA needs to be pulled out of the Steam era. It doesn't need to loose the Steam, but it does need to embrace the modern age. The two need to be blended somehow, and the logo needs to reflect that. I believe the days of steam dominating the layouts of the world has passed. Go to any train show and watch the little guys (kids under 10). They thing the choo-choo puffing by is neat, but if it doesn't look and act like 'Thomas', they can't associate. Now watch their eyes as a bright diesel consist pulling 50-60 cars rolls by! They've seen that before...they've leaned over there dad's (or mom's) shoulder at the train crossing to watch the monster roll by and to count the engines and the cars. If young people continue to join our hobby, diesel is what they are predominately going to model.
How does the NMRA go about blending the two eras? I don't know. What I do know is that if they don't do something to attract more members, both young and old...er...life experienced (see, almost offended someone there), it won't matter because it will be gone.
Unfortunately, I am not a member of the NMRA. I was years ago, and all it did was cost me money. I didn't even receive one item in the mail from it. Heck, I wasn't even made aware of my local chapters headquarters. As others have stated, that needs to be fixed before anyone even considers attracting new members. And I was the type of member you are looking for. Back then, I would have been in my late 20's, early 30's (I'm 41 now).
vsmith Milepost 266.2: Well, at least the NMRA aren't the only ones who don't think their logo through very well: http://blogs.desmoinesregister.com/dmr/index.php/2010/09/02/drakes-new-the-d-advantage-marketing-campaign-draws-attention/
Milepost 266.2: Well, at least the NMRA aren't the only ones who don't think their logo through very well: http://blogs.desmoinesregister.com/dmr/index.php/2010/09/02/drakes-new-the-d-advantage-marketing-campaign-draws-attention/
Well, at least the NMRA aren't the only ones who don't think their logo through very well:
http://blogs.desmoinesregister.com/dmr/index.php/2010/09/02/drakes-new-the-d-advantage-marketing-campaign-draws-attention/
Milepost 266.2 Well, at least the NMRA aren't the only ones who don't think their logo through very well: http://blogs.desmoinesregister.com/dmr/index.php/2010/09/02/drakes-new-the-d-advantage-marketing-campaign-draws-attention/
jfallon Perhaps non-model railroaders would assume it's the National Mammary Research Association. Would this also bring back an old joke comparing toy trains to b**bs, that they are intended to be used by the kids, but Daddies end up playing with them more!
Perhaps non-model railroaders would assume it's the National Mammary Research Association.
Would this also bring back an old joke comparing toy trains to b**bs, that they are intended to be used by the kids, but Daddies end up playing with them more!
Well after weighing in on this once and then following the comments - and without any scientific basis for this statement whatsoever - it seems that a majority of the comments are somewhat negative and would like to see it changed. Personally I would like to see the words 'National Model Railroad Association' spelled out but then I already said that and it's my preference.
When I was gainfully employed i worked for the parts and service division of GM - this division went through many name changes over my 34 year career. And one of the names happened to be 'General Motors Warehousing and Distribution Division' which became abbreviated as GMWDD - and became affectionally known as 'gumwad.' I believe because of this nickname GMWDD was the shortest lived of any of them and within a year it was changed to Warehousing and Distribution Division - GM which stuck until it was changed again in later years.
Maybe the NMRA will take another look.
There's never time to do it right, but always time to do it over.....