HamltnblueNot my words but here is one post I just did on another forum. The person challenged to compare and listed features. My answers have the A next to them. The forum was in Train Orders. I think I found where the MTH crowd hangs out LOL.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
The issue I think isn't whether one system is better than the other...it's more the issue that MTH has (probably intentionally) designed a system that requires to use their locomotives and their controllers and no one elses, whereas with DCC you can have an engine with a TCS decoder and a Soundtraxx sound-only decoder run by a Digitrax Zephyr.
I was very uncertain of buying my first MTH H0 model (Triplex). I read many articles and discussions in the internet. I know that modellers in US do not like MTH. I read about law suits, DCS as a "new standard" and incompatibility with DCC. Despite this negative opition I decided to order the Triplex. I have to admitt thay I was impressed when I got it. Model runs extremely smoothly, has a fantastic sound and smoke unit. I was so pleased that I ordered some more MTH models - UP9000 and 8 SD70Aces. I agree that DCS is not a good idea. But I am suprised that you don't like their built-in 1 scale MPH per speed step function.
I think that it is very useful function. I spent 3 days lately trying to match speed two of my Kato engines. I want to run two models in consist - SD80 NS and Conrail. One engine has a Tsunami Sound decoder. The second has just a run decoder from TCS. It was a horible work. It is very hard to find right values for speed table. If I had a similiar speeds in forward, there was a problem in reverse. I tried to do it for the same models SD80. The only difference was a decoder which controls a motor. It is even worse when you want to match different models from different vendors. My last try to match one of Atlas model to BLI one was so annoying that I give up.
With MTH solution I can consist all their models. I am sure that on each steep I have the same speed. Last time I consisted my 8 ACes. 5 models were pulling cars when 3 others were at the end pushing them. Exactly the same speed and whole train could run without any accident. My last try with different models ended with disaster. Engines which were at the end were a little slower than engine at the front so on a curve most of cars turned over.
Someone wrote here that he does not want a locomotive on his layout running 128 scale MPH.But you have a choice. You don't have to run a locomotive with this speed. If you know that max speed for this kind of locomotive is 70 MPH you can just run it on 70th steep.
Some modelers complain that there are not CV's which allow to configure a MTH's model. It is true but there is no need to configure at all. The model is ready to run properly right out of the box. Buying the model with DCC compatible decoder you have a list of CV which you have to set up first. CV2, CV3, CV4, CV5 it is just beginning. There are many tricks and CV which you have to find reading the manual. It is very useful for experienced modelers. They can improve they models. But many people just hate it. Look at many internet forum. There are a lot of post with topic "Please help with DCC configuration for..." or "What are the best values of CVs for ..."Maybe I am the only one but I am very pleased with MTH models. I have just ordered the Big Boy ;)
But you're STUCK with MTH models if you switch to DCS. No other brands will work. And MTH simply does not have a product lineup that comes close to being correct for me. I'm not one who will run anything - I do not model the UP, and ONLY the UP had Big Boys, so that's out. Erie gets a little closer, but I would not run a Triplex and an AC4400 on the same layout, they are nearly a century apart.
As for speed matching, there is this idea that the two locos have to be exactly 100% in lock step through every speed step. This is NOT true. Close is good enough - and close is probably closer than they ever were on DC. Tsunamis make it a lottle more difficult because they force you to use a 28 step speed table as they do not support start/mid/max. Which is part of the reason I wouldn't buy one but that's the point again - I don't need to buy a Tsunami decoder for DCC sound if I do not want one.
When speed matching with sound and non-sound decoders, sometimes a bit of momentum helps. And you can speed up a slo starter and slow down one that is fast at full throttle but you can't magically decrease the starting speed nor increase the top speed, so you need to think a little on speed matching. And DecoderPro makes it pretty easy, instead of adjusting 28 CVs for each loco by hand.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
I have been quite happy with running my locos on DCC, although I have to admit, that fiddlin´ around with those CV´s can be a nuisance. If MTH has an answer for that issue, well that´s fine for them.
I still fail to understand the MTH decision to market a proprietary system in a fairly small market. Marklin enjoys a sizable market share in Western Europe with their 3-rail AC system, so they don´t limit their marketing chances, but even they have their Trix range of 2-rail DC and DCC to capture more market share.
MTH must have a reason we all don´t know
They have a reason. Build up their "power" in the hobby to the point they can dominate the other brands and "rule the world". That way they can dictate pricing and availability. Been tried before. Hasn't worked before, but the effort is being made.
Bob
Well, it looks like this post is becoming outdated...
http://www.mthtrains.com/news/452
Edit-Oops, I just saw that this was already mentioned.
There seems to be a little conflict. Watching the video seems to say it needs 16V DC to reach top speed. The instruction manual says it has a 12V DC motor but also mentions using up to 16V DC. The specifications at the end of the instruction manual say 18V DC max. Guess we will have to wait for a full review to see how fast it goes on standard 12V, and with a decoder installed.
And while it's probably the same with the DCS version, removing the shell is CRAZY complicated - you have to take out the wheelsets and remove the truck sideframes?!?!? That's not a factor that would affect my buying decision, just seems a bit odd compared to most which have a couple of screws (although sometimes obscured by the trucks, makign those models also more complex then it needs to be)
rrinker rjake4454 Whats this about a microphone inside the locomotive? Did I read that right? Why the heck would anyone want to talk to their loco? Do you literally have to put your face up to the cab and say something? If this is what MTH is doing to model railroading, I want no part of it. Seriously, whats this feature for? no no, the microphone is in the throttle, your voice comes out the speaker in the loco. Still silly. --Randy
rjake4454 Whats this about a microphone inside the locomotive? Did I read that right? Why the heck would anyone want to talk to their loco? Do you literally have to put your face up to the cab and say something? If this is what MTH is doing to model railroading, I want no part of it. Seriously, whats this feature for?
Whats this about a microphone inside the locomotive? Did I read that right? Why the heck would anyone want to talk to their loco? Do you literally have to put your face up to the cab and say something? If this is what MTH is doing to model railroading, I want no part of it.
Seriously, whats this feature for?
no no, the microphone is in the throttle, your voice comes out the speaker in the loco.
Still silly.
Say what???!!!!
I agree that is silly..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
selectorI sent MTH an email asking them (and I was very civil, not condescending or snotty) to reconsider their articulated nose on their UP 9000 series that they launched in March or April of 2009. I explained that they would limit their sales, and possibly sales of future items, by not taking the time to understand the HO market a little better. I received a polite response stating that they liked their current approach and that they would continue to bring their 4-12-2 to market as announced.
BRAKIE rrinker rjake4454 Whats this about a microphone inside the locomotive? Did I read that right? Why the heck would anyone want to talk to their loco? Do you literally have to put your face up to the cab and say something? If this is what MTH is doing to model railroading, I want no part of it. Seriously, whats this feature for? no no, the microphone is in the throttle, your voice comes out the speaker in the loco. Still silly. --Randy Say what???!!!! I agree that is silly..
What were they thinking? I bet you that the microphone in question is an el cheapo dynamic thing that'll make your voice even tinnier sounding that they're stupid station calls
Good Grief what'll they think of next---don't answer that
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
CSX RobertselectorI sent MTH an email asking them (and I was very civil, not condescending or snotty) to reconsider their articulated nose on their UP 9000 series that they launched in March or April of 2009. I explained that they would limit their sales, and possibly sales of future items, by not taking the time to understand the HO market a little better. I received a polite response stating that they liked their current approach and that they would continue to bring their 4-12-2 to market as announced. They do include an option to lock the front engine so that it does not articulate.
I wonder, though, what that consigns the engine to in the way of curves. Does it go from an articulated 22" curve to more like 34" curves if the front of the engine is locked? Even broader? That leaves a large gap of users with 24-32" curves, say, who still have to use the hinged version. Not so for BLI whose engine doesn't articulate....period. And it still goes around 22" curves. On balance, I know which one to buy.
-Crandell
selectorI wonder, though, what that consigns the engine to in the way of curves...
selector CSX RobertselectorI sent MTH an email asking them (and I was very civil, not condescending or snotty) to reconsider their articulated nose on their UP 9000 series that they launched in March or April of 2009. I explained that they would limit their sales, and possibly sales of future items, by not taking the time to understand the HO market a little better. I received a polite response stating that they liked their current approach and that they would continue to bring their 4-12-2 to market as announced. They do include an option to lock the front engine so that it does not articulate. I wonder, though, what that consigns the engine to in the way of curves. Does it go from an articulated 22" curve to more like 34" curves if the front of the engine is locked? Even broader? That leaves a large gap of users with 24-32" curves, say, who still have to use the hinged version. Not so for BLI whose engine doesn't articulate....period. And it still goes around 22" curves. On balance, I know which one to buy. -Crandell
As clearly stated in the instructions, locking the mechanism will allow it to negotiate 42" radius curves--which some folks (but not myself) actually have.
It remains to be seen if BLI's model will even run worth a darn, because it's not even out yet. I suspect the excessive lateral motion needed to allow it to negotiate tight 22" radius curves (without pivoting the mechanism) will create other problems with valve gear motion and things "getting caught" as on the P2K USRA heavy 2-10-2, with which I had bad problems with valve gear getting bent on 24" radius.
I owned several MTH steamers and they were fantastic! The DCS system was simple and fantastic to use. It was so nice having all the MTH engines speed matched. My BLI engines, including the newest Y6B's (of which I owned 2), just did not quite run as well--even after thorough break-in. BLI is having many more QA/QC issues, as reported by at least one large dealer I know.
As I'm on a more limited budget now, I sold all BLI and MTH steam and switched to Atlas diesels...for good, this time.
John
rrinker There seems to be a little conflict. Watching the video seems to say it needs 16V DC to reach top speed. The instruction manual says it has a 12V DC motor but also mentions using up to 16V DC. The specifications at the end of the instruction manual say 18V DC max. Guess we will have to wait for a full review to see how fast it goes on standard 12V, and with a decoder installed. And while it's probably the same with the DCS version, removing the shell is CRAZY complicated - you have to take out the wheelsets and remove the truck sideframes?!?!? That's not a factor that would affect my buying decision, just seems a bit odd compared to most which have a couple of screws (although sometimes obscured by the trucks, makign those models also more complex then it needs to be) --Randy
I changed the decoders to Tsunami's on 2 of the Ace's The shell actually is easy to remove. There are tabs under the truck that have to be moved and the shell slides off after unclipping the handrails. There was a forum in january that I showed progress photo's.
A comment was made about MTH loco's working correctly right out of the box. Well all loco's work out of the box. The difference is MTH determines what is right for you and you have no choice but to live with it.
Springfield PA
Hamltnblue I changed the decoders to Tsunami's on 2 of the Ace's The shell actually is easy to remove. There are tabs under the truck that have to be moved and the shell slides off after unclipping the handrails. There was a forum in january that I showed progress photo's.
I have one of these SD70 ACe on order, should receive it shortly, I wonder if cutting off these tabs would be detrimental to the loco engineering integrity. Also the documentation mention the removal of both long hood handrails, is it possible to do otherwise?
Jack W.
CSX RobertselectorI wonder, though, what that consigns the engine to in the way of curves... According to the manual, 18" for articulated, and 54" for non-articulated.
megh---then I notice 54" radius?!?!?!
Ahhhh--I get it. They want the toy train look to come back!
UP 4-12-2As clearly stated in the instructions, locking the mechanism will allow it to negotiate 42" radius curves--which some folks (but not myself) actually have.
The one that came with my two 4-12-2's said 42" radius.
Sorry, obviously there's a discrepancy.
If they were brass, one would also think 42" radius would be required--as that is typical for similar sized brass steamers.
No matter how you slice it, it's a long wheelbase, and almost impossible for it not to appear "toy train" unless one possesses huge curves. Its overhang exceeds the challengers and big boys.
Hamltnblue A comment was made about MTH loco's working correctly right out of the box. Well all loco's work out of the box. The difference is MTH determines what is right for you and you have no choice but to live with it.
No, actually, not all loco's work correctly out of the box. BLI seems to have had their share of problems with that, especially during the last year--then there's Intermountain's first run or two of cab forwards that had problems...
If you don't like MTH, don't buy it, period. All I'm saying is they actually do perform fantastically well.
I know of at least one good-sized internet/mail order/train store whose MTH sales are way up during the last year versus relative stagnation on BLI sales--so some people are buying and liking MTH regardless of the DCC issue. It's a good product. Do they offer all the road specific detailing found on some other models? Not exactly--but the stuff runs and runs, sounds great and outsmokes anybody else's product. We had a lot of fun with it before budget constraints forced us to downscale our train hobby.
I wish I could provide useful feedback but unfortunately, I've never bought an MTH locomotive due to the DCS issue.
On the flip side, my Proto's, BLI's, PCM's, Bachmann's, Athearn's and Brass all run just fine on my Digitrax DCC system. Ah well, I guess I'll have to live with it.
Hamltnblue rrinker There seems to be a little conflict. Watching the video seems to say it needs 16V DC to reach top speed. The instruction manual says it has a 12V DC motor but also mentions using up to 16V DC. The specifications at the end of the instruction manual say 18V DC max. Guess we will have to wait for a full review to see how fast it goes on standard 12V, and with a decoder installed. And while it's probably the same with the DCS version, removing the shell is CRAZY complicated - you have to take out the wheelsets and remove the truck sideframes?!?!? That's not a factor that would affect my buying decision, just seems a bit odd compared to most which have a couple of screws (although sometimes obscured by the trucks, makign those models also more complex then it needs to be) --Randy I changed the decoders to Tsunami's on 2 of the Ace's The shell actually is easy to remove. There are tabs under the truck that have to be moved and the shell slides off after unclipping the handrails. There was a forum in january that I showed progress photo's. A comment was made about MTH loco's working correctly right out of the box. Well all loco's work out of the box. The difference is MTH determines what is right for you and you have no choice but to live with it.
I was just going by the manual for the new DCC Ready loco which has step by step photos showing removing the truck sideframes (but only a little so you don't break off the pickup wires) and removing all the wheelsets to get at the tabs. That's in addition to unclipping the handrails, which is pretty much par for the course for any loco.
Here is a MTH Mohawk, stripped down to fix the drive coupling.
Canon EN-22 motor, 12v nominal. The extra electronic gobbledygook MTH puts in causes the need for the extra voltage.
There is some sort of opto-sensor (Green PC board between the motor and flywheel) that tells the DCS board exactly how fast the motor is turning. This is probably what enables the 1:1 speed step matching deal.
Mike WSOR engineer | HO scale since 1988 | Visit our club www.WCGandyDancers.com
In short "Yes". For you scale guys just take a look at what MTH has done in the last decade in 3 rail O gauge. MTH's easy to use DCS system is much better than any current dcc system IMO, in terms of ease of use. Scale needs something similar without having to read 100 page manuals to run your N or HO engines often without sound. MTH is Easy to program easy to run multiple locomotives and easy to use sound.
George
seacoast Scale needs something similar without having to read 100 page manuals to run your N or HO engines often without sound.
seacoastMTH is Easy to program easy to run multiple locomotives and easy to use sound.
Okay, here's a question for the MTH people:
I run strictly DC. I'm pretty darned impressed with the looks of their release of the SP cab-forward AC-6 4-8-8-2. It's my favorite of all of the series of SP cab-forwards. I'd like to get one.
Now--being strictly DC, how much useless (for me) elctronic CRAP am I going to have to strip out and re-wire to get this loco to run with my other strictly DC locos? And will it be worth it to ME?
Just curious.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Well since it appear they use a quality 12V Canon can motor - maybe none, or all of it. Since the speed and chuff sync is done with an optical sensor, I'd think it owuld be possible to wire the motor leads right to the pickups so the motor runs on direct track power, thus reaching top speed at a standard 12 volts. The sounds should be in sync, as long as you are runnign fast enough to get enough voltage on the track to run the electronics. Otherwise you would have to rip it all out and wire the motor to the pickups.
In sort - out of the box it should run with plain DC locos about as well as any other dual mode sound loco - that is to say not very well. No way around it, for the sounds to start before the loco moves they have to suck up some of the voltage to run the sound system before allowing any to get to the motor.
WSOR 3801 Here is a MTH Mohawk, stripped down to fix the drive coupling. Canon EN-22 motor, 12v nominal. The extra electronic gobbledygook MTH puts in causes the need for the extra voltage. There is some sort of opto-sensor (Green PC board between the motor and flywheel) that tells the DCS board exactly how fast the motor is turning. This is probably what enables the 1:1 speed step matching deal.
And yet my DCC RS2's do not need that much voltage to run ---- and that is with sound----hhhmmmmnn---