Not my words but here is one post I just did on another forum. The person challenged to compare and listed features. My answers have the A next to them. The forum was in Train Orders. I think I found where the MTH crowd hangs out LOL.
If I missed anything chime in.
Using your comparison I'll use the manual linked here from my Blueline Paragon 2 for loco comparison. The soundraxx Tsunami and QSI decoders are very similar and have some additional features http://www.broadway-limited.com/support/manuals/Paragon2%20Steam%20Manual%20(2.11.09).pdf ------------------------------------------------------- Hamltnblue Wrote:> If that's all they have then it's far from being equal rather than superior. There isn't anything >in that link that stands out and most if not all is available in DCC and then some. Oh really? Let's go through this: * 9 Independent Volume Control Settings - with DCC you have to program CV's, no CV on DCS and DCS gives more options A. The Paragon DCC loco's have 24 independent volume control settings. * 16 Adjustable Chuff Rate Settings - with DCC you have to program CV's. Never going to achieve accuracy without a CAM A. The Paragon DCC loco above doesn't need chuff rate settings. It's simply alligned with the drivers. The Tsunami has more thatn 16 settings if the cam isn't used and the unit can be tuned to the actual loco. 3 Adjustable Smoke Intensity Settings - Not on DCC A. The Paragon 2 has 90 settings. See CV236 * Adjustable Brake Sound Effects - Not on DCC A. The Paragon 2 has 255 sensitivity setting for break squeal plus the settings for volume. Most higher end DCC Sound decoders have both break sqeal sensitivity and volume adjustment. * Adjustable Wheel "Clickity-Clack" Sounds - Not A. The wheels on the trains go clickity clack when the cross a rail joint. no sound effect necessary but some DCC decoders offer it and some allow you to add your own sound. For instance if you want to play pink floyd for a whistle you can do so. 15 Programmable Custom Sounds - Not on DCCA. Read the attached manual. paragon and others offer this * 4 Adjustable Diesel Engine Ditch Lighting A. Ditch lights are fully adjustable on just about All Dcc multi function decoders decoders and many more than 4 options. Effects - DCC you have to program CV's but DCC has more options here That's the reason that DCC is superior. you can adjust just about anything the way you want it. Not the way MTH wants it. * 120 Adjustable Maximum Engine Speed Settings - A. Same for DCC at 128 * 3 Adjustable Locomotive Direction Start-up Engines - Not on DCC A. Not sure what that means. * Programmable Lash-up Creation - Easier with DCS but overall accomplishes the same thing as DCC A. The NCE system does this with a few keystrokes. The latest Digitrax DT402 controller also does it with a couple of keystrokes * Programmable Route Creation - Equal DCC and DCS, easier on DCS, both require separate purchase A. With NCE route programming is included and very simple to do. I'm not sure how digitrax does it but as you know they do. accessory components * Programmable Scene Creation - Not on DCC A. There are numerous options in DCC/Ho in general. Any accessory decoder can activate anything from auto loading to a ferris wheel or whatever you can come up with. * Record/Playback 90 Minutes of Operation - Not on DCC A. The paragon 2 attached will do this easily. Actually it will continue indefinitely if you set it up that way. * Downloadable Locomotive Sounds Sets - Limited in DCC to LokSound and QSI only, NYA in HO on DCS but A. But it is available in DCC. This is the strength of having multiple manufacturers and competition. MTH can't even produce the programmable sounds and consisting for DCC that they promised in January. > coming soon * Independent Locomotive Chronometer - Not on DCC A. If there is a demand for it someone would produce it. Also MTH has promised other things and many are still waiting. * Independent Locomotive Odometer - Not on DCC A. Same * Independent Locomotive Trip Odometer - Not on DCC A. Same * Independent Locomotive Battery Charge - Not applicable in HO for either DCS or DCC * Track Signal Test - Not on DCC, however this is more of an O gauge feature A. DCC doesn't have it because there hasn't been a need for it. * Linear Track Length Meter - Not on DCC A. DCC typically uses a bus with multiple feeds for short ckt protection. Track length meter not needed since the person laying the track knows how much is there. * Adjustable 50 or 60Hz AC Input - HO requires DC input power, DCC systems will accept DC or AC input power * 2 Independent Engine Reset Features - Equal to DCC, system reset and locomotive reset * 16 TIU Individual Channel Controls - Not on DCC but also not relevant to HO A. Yup not revelant but After reading the TIU and controller operation setup I feel bad for DCS users :) Remote Control Features * Built-in Microphone - Not on DCC A. More a gimmick to me. At our club we just use radios or just talk to the people without the controllers. :) * Back Lit 4-Line LCD Screen - No DCC system has a 4-line display but overall this isn't necessarily a "feature" A. I don't know all of the DCC options but the displays are made to accommodate each system. * 5 Programmable Softkeys with Up to 36 Options - Not on DCC A. DCC can program any of the 12 function buttons on the face to do practically anything you want. so in effect every key is a soft key * Controls Between 4 & 20 Tracks - Equal to DCC DCC can do as many tracks as you want. Hundreds if you really wanted to. This is because in DCC you control the trins not the track. Power boosters can be used to continually extend capacity as much as you want. So DCS in no where near DCC if you control tracks. * Controls Between 20 & 500 Accessories - DCC can control 1024 accessories attached to accessory decoders * Independent Whistle & Bell Sounds - Equal to DCC * 120 Speed Steps - DCC has 126 speed steps A. This was mentioned earlier. * On-Screen List of Up to 99 Engines - Most DCC system stacks capable of 256 engines - all up to 9999 addresses * 42 Levels of Programming Option - DCS is menu based, DCC has capabilities of thousands through CV programming * Labor/Drift Chuffing Sound Control - Not on DCC without programming and not supported by all decoders or systems A. Most modern DCC Sound decoders now support this. * Diesel Rev Up/Down Sound Control - Not on DCC A. All of My sound installed diesels have this as auto or manual notching. Auto notching is standard without programming. Also the amount of speed steps per rpm rev change is programmable. Diesel laboring effects are also included. My Diesel Sound decoders are Tsunami, QSI and Paragon. * Speed Boost & Brake Control - Not on DCC A. QSI has brake control using F9. I'm not sure about the others. * One Touch Smoke On/Off Control - Equal to DCC * One Touch Volume Level Control - Not on DCC A. My paragons use F8 to control volume. I'm not sure about the settings on Tsunami or QSI. * Engine Sounds Mute Button - Equal to DCC * One Touch Headlight On/Off Control - Equal to DCC * One Touch Proto-Cast™ Control - Not on DCC decoders, but for MTH decoders, activation equal to DCC A. Don't know what proto-cast control is. * One Touch Coupler Operation Control - Not on DCC decoders, but for MTH decoders, activation equal to DCC A. First thing I did with my MTH SD70 auto couplers was throw them out. They don't look like anything I've ever seen on a train. * One Touch Engine Startup Control - Equal to DCC * One Touch Engine Shutdown Control - Equal to DCC * One Touch Passenger or Freight Sound Activation - Not on DCC decoders, but for MTH decoders, activation equal to DCC A. Both Paragon and Tsunami's have this. Actually QSI can make any sound you want. Ok let's tally up: You might want to re-tally because if that's all DCS has you only covered less than half of what DCC has. DCS Better - DCC Better - Both Equal - DCS Feature not relevant to HO - Not listed here is the way DCS interfaces to the user which is far easier than DCC since you don't need a computer to get the English description of what settings you're modifying. A. that's a matter of opinion for each user. I think the NCE is as easy. Digitrax has a bit of a learning curve but after a day of ops it's just as easy to operate IMO. Well there's a loss of 45 minites LOL
Springfield PA
As for the uncouplers - there were DCC uncoupelrs I'm pretty sure BEFORE MTH had them in DCS - at the very least in HO long before MTH made an HO loco. And using regualr Kadee couplers, too. Remote uncouplers were possible with the old Lionel radio control system they had in the late 40's even.
Of course the #1 reason DCC is superior - CHOICE. I can't go buy my favorite loco under DCS - because MTH doesn't make one, and I cannot just add a DCS decoder to any old HO loco because they don't sell them seperately. I can buy any loco I want from a myriad of manufacturers and add a decoder to it. With DCS I am stuck with whatever MTH decides to make.
Between QSI, Loksound, Sountraxx, and BLI, any non-gimmicky feature of DCS is available in DCC. That microphone thing isn't for communications between engineers and the dispatcher - it's to TALK FROM YOUR LOCO. OK so maybe if I had a Thomas and wanted to make him talk for the kids... but I don't think MTH has a Thomas with DCS in any scale! Plus I model a railroad and era where they didn;t have radios in the cabs, so the radio chatter that's been in Loksound decoders for years is one of those function keys I NEVER hit.
Still waiting for some actual evidence that DCS is superior, besides that MTH says so. A completely one-vendor solution from the controller right down to the locos you can run. 4 letters describe that: FAIL.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
rrinker Of course the #1 reason DCC is superior - CHOICE. I can't go buy my favorite loco under DCS - because MTH doesn't make one, and I cannot just add a DCS decoder to any old HO loco because they don't sell them seperately. I can buy any loco I want from a myriad of manufacturers and add a decoder to it. With DCS I am stuck with whatever MTH decides to make. --Randy
The #2 reason why DCC is a better choice than DCS is the built-in 1 scale MPH per speed step deal of DCS. I do not want any locomotive on my layout capable of going 128 scale MPH. I want all my locomotives geared to reach a normal prototype operating speed (not the maximum speed of the prototype) on 12 volts DC, period. Usually, this means I prefer my steam engines to have 12 volt speeds of around 45 scale MPH (25-30 for switchers and most narrow gauge), and 10-12 scale MPH for geared steam. With realistic gearing, I am operating my HO/HOn3 layout for realism, not like the 3 rail O toys I enjoyed so much. With realistic gearing, I can get nice smooth running at switching speeds without resorting to heat-generating narrow spike pulses.
I see MTH as having carried over many of their 3 rail O "features" to their HO line-up, assuming that these "features" are wanted by HO modelers with the will and means to pay MTH prices.
My personal belief is that if MTH would take time to understand what their HO customers really wanted, they could double or triple their sales of a given locomotive. Rip out DCS, and put in a quality DCC sound decoder, already set up to match the model's prototype. Gear the locomotives to run at more reasonable speeds. Offer a DC version without sound that will run at reasonable speeds at 12 volts for $100-$150 less.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
Hi!
Sounds like the ol VHS vs Betamax arguments to me. Glad I got the VHS (Digitrax).
Seriously, I'm sure MTH has his reasons, but it seems like he is fighting a losing battle. Actually, we all lose because those of us with DCC will be prone not to buy anything MTH.
As the old song says......"you can't roller skate in a buffalo herd" (at least not for long).
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
For me, following the standard is important. I never was interested in the proprietary systems. So I was firmly DC until there was a DCC standard. Even if NCE goes out of business I can go right on buying/equipping locos with DCC decoders that work with my NCE system. Or I can buy a different system and have it work with my locos.
Enjoy
Paul
Whats this about a microphone inside the locomotive? Did I read that right? Why the heck would anyone want to talk to their loco? Do you literally have to put your face up to the cab and say something? If this is what MTH is doing to model railroading, I want no part of it.
Seriously, whats this feature for?
And for all of the reasons mentioned above.......that's why I stay with straight DC, no pulse power, no gimmicks, nothing to hassle with, just put the train on the track on crank up the throttle.
Almost too simple for words.........
Mark
rjake4454 Whats this about a microphone inside the locomotive? Did I read that right? Why the heck would anyone want to talk to their loco? Do you literally have to put your face up to the cab and say something? If this is what MTH is doing to model railroading, I want no part of it. Seriously, whats this feature for?
no no, the microphone is in the throttle, your voice comes out the speaker in the loco.
Still silly.
mobilman44 Hi! Sounds like the ol VHS vs Betamax arguments to me. Glad I got the VHS (Digitrax). Seriously, I'm sure MTH has his reasons, but it seems like he is fighting a losing battle. Actually, we all lose because those of us with DCC will be prone not to buy anything MTH. As the old song says......"you can't roller skate in a buffalo herd" (at least not for long). Mobilman44
Not really - Beta actually WAS technically superior. But had 2 main failure points. FIrst it was proprietary and Sony wouldn't license it (seems like they never learned, either, until Blu-Ray), and second, it couldn't record 120 minutes on one tape so movies often didn't fit. In the case of DCC it's the technically superior product that is freely licensed and that not as good one kept proprietary.
Either the DCS people actually believe the hype or MTH employees are hanging in that forum. I could believe talking at their cab and having it come out of the loco speaker of Thomas if they actually had Thomas LOL. The people that run DCS and are HO are missing out on a lot. They can't have much as far as diesel loco's and the steamers all cost 400 bucks. They have to walk around in train shows seeing 99% of the loco and other electronic products that wont work on their layout. Now if that's superior I'm totally missing something.
I also read the literature on the product on their site. First they don't have much for product, and second the wireless controllers have a big 50 foot range. I confirmed that on the same thread with their users.
fwright DCC is a better choice than DCS is the built-in 1 scale MPH per speed step deal of DCS. I do not want any locomotive on my layout capable of going 128 scale MPH. I want all my locomotives geared to reach a normal prototype operating speed (not the maximum speed of the prototype) on 12 volts DC, period. Usually, this means I prefer my steam engines to have 12 volt speeds of around 45 scale MPH (25-30 for switchers and most narrow gauge), and 10-12 scale MPH for geared steam. With realistic gearing, I am operating my HO/HOn3 layout for realism, not like the 3 rail O toys I enjoyed so much. With realistic gearing, I can get nice smooth running at switching speeds without resorting to heat-generating narrow spike pulses. I see MTH as having carried over many of their 3 rail O "features" to their HO line-up, assuming that these "features" are wanted by HO modelers with the will and means to pay MTH prices. My personal belief is that if MTH would take time to understand what their HO customers really wanted, they could double or triple their sales of a given locomotive. Rip out DCS, and put in a quality DCC sound decoder, already set up to match the model's prototype. Gear the locomotives to run at more reasonable speeds. Offer a DC version without sound that will run at reasonable speeds at 12 volts for $100-$150 less. my thoughts, your choices Fred W
DCC is a better choice than DCS is the built-in 1 scale MPH per speed step deal of DCS. I do not want any locomotive on my layout capable of going 128 scale MPH. I want all my locomotives geared to reach a normal prototype operating speed (not the maximum speed of the prototype) on 12 volts DC, period. Usually, this means I prefer my steam engines to have 12 volt speeds of around 45 scale MPH (25-30 for switchers and most narrow gauge), and 10-12 scale MPH for geared steam. With realistic gearing, I am operating my HO/HOn3 layout for realism, not like the 3 rail O toys I enjoyed so much. With realistic gearing, I can get nice smooth running at switching speeds without resorting to heat-generating narrow spike pulses.
Should you want that though, you can make DCC do the same thing (provided the loco can run 128mph - for the most part those days are behind us, even in N scale).
MTH SAID they were going to release DC only versions of their locos, but I haven't seen any yet. Such a product should allow proper operation on standard 12V DC plus you could install your choice of DCC decoder if you were so inclined. Still remains that they have to release a loco that actually fits my prototype and era, so far there have been none.
Actually MTH has released a few of the road names in the SD70Ace as DCC ready.
I saw one in an LHS last weekend in GW bush scheme.
I don't think they're be doing it for any other loco at this point.
Also Atlas Gold Loco's and probably other QSI loco's currently have the option to run in scale MPH when running 128 speed steps.
I think this should be the next top ten on the Letterman show
Well no one can say you don't offer an intelligent argument obviously someone (Randy) has done his home work, now can you tell me how to get the clock to stop blinking on my VCR? I own more a few MTH locomotives and besides price I think there biggest downfall is not having all the DCS functions available in DCC.if so that would make them much more palatable for the consumer.
Are they stilll doing the 16vdc thing?
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Allegheny2-6-6-6 I think this should be the next top ten on the Letterman show Well no one can say you don't offer an intelligent argument obviously someone (Randy) has done his home work, now can you tell me how to get the clock to stop blinking on my VCR? I own more a few MTH locomotives and besides price I think there biggest downfall is not having all the DCS functions available in DCC.if so that would make them much more palatable for the consumer.
Blinken lights on VCR? REAL easy to fix. First acquire the necessary tools. There's only one. A medium size hammer. Next, apply hammer sharply to clock display on VCR. Problem solved. If some blinking still remains, repeat until all blinking has stopped.
Ok sounds even better then black electrical tape
But we are talking about Mike's Toy House are we not?
BTW:IBTL!!!!!
rrinkerMTH SAID they were going to release DC only versions of their locos, but I haven't seen any yet. Such a product should allow proper operation on standard 12V DC plus you could install your choice of DCC decoder if you were so inclined.
I'm sure that would make good business sense, but even then they are behind the curve. They are a high-end manufacturer, price-wise, and I don't hear a lot of complaints about their quality. But if you look at what other high-end companies are doing, their engines all come out with DCC and sound. It wouldn't surprise me if DCC with sound is now over half the market for new, high-quality engines, and MTH is ignoring that segment of the hobby.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Randy,
I didn't make myself perfectly clear.......... I cannot say for certain than DCC is better or worse than MTH, just as I can't say that VHS is better/worse than Beta. But I can say that its rather obvious that DCC (like VHS) is the clear popularity winner - and it is a losing battle (IMHO) for MTH to continue their stand. It really is a moot point as to "which is really better", for it is "what sells" and "What the consumer wants" that wins the game.
While I don't try to argue with techno nuts, I did that in my days working in the computer field, I will state that I am perfectly happy with DCC, I like it, I understand it, and I won't switch. the NCE I use is simple to learn, simple to maintain. I know there are many future features coming in the MTH, but I simply haven't liked the business tactics of MTH honchos, don't want any sort of control system that is locked in to one manufacturer, and if a model rail manufacturer tries to "force me" to use it by including it in their product, then I will no longer participate. A priviledge of age, I can be "onery" and contrary" to my heart's delight, and I can decided where my bucks will be spent.
Simple as that.
Bob
It almost amazes me that the MTH don't have flushing sounds too..... You know that the engineer might have to go occasionally! LOL
I sent MTH an email asking them (and I was very civil, not condescending or snotty) to reconsider their articulated nose on their UP 9000 series that they launched in March or April of 2009. I explained that they would limit their sales, and possibly sales of future items, by not taking the time to understand the HO market a little better. I received a polite response stating that they liked their current approach and that they would continue to bring their 4-12-2 to market as announced.
I still don't think it was a good decision, and I still think they will eventually have to come around to either installing DCC decoders or providing DCC-ready/DC engines. I hear that is where they are at present.
-Crandell
PRRT1MAN It almost amazes me that the MTH don't have flushing sounds too..... You know that the engineer might have to go occasionally! LOL
Locomotives don't have running water and flush toilets, it's not much more than a bucket.
Chris van der Heide
My Algoma Central Railway Modeling Blog
cv_acr Locomotives don't have running water and flush toilets, it's not much more than a bucket.
Ah, but whatever happened to "It's your railroad. Run it the way you want to..."
With the Digitrax SoundLoader software, and probably others, you can customize the sound files and download them to a decoder. So, you can add flushing toilets, or replace the horns with a rendition of "Dixie" for your Dukes of Hazzard themed layout.
No, they wouldn't have flush toilets on the Dukes of Hazzard either, right, Bo? Never y'all mind.
Actually, I'm surprised no one has suggested that MRC sound decoders play a flushing toilet sound as the indication that they are about to go non-functional.
With MTH, you never know...
MisterBeasleyActually, I'm surprised no one has suggested that MRC sound decoders play a flushing toilet sound as the indication that they are about to go non-functional.
Good idea! lol
ndbprrIt is impossible to fight ignorance sith intelligence and why I now stay out of the debate. As long as we have migration from tinplate where MTH rules to HO we will have this problem
I understanding staying out of the debate but the reason I chime in is that there are many people just starting out that visit this and other sites. I see it as a responsibility to offer opinions so that the person surfing the forums can make a decision that's best for him/her. This is no different than MRC sound decoders. If someone repeats the MRC slogan of being state of the art or whatever, several chime in with their experiences and opinions to try to help the person from losing money on a mistake. This is no different. Just imagine being a beginner and seeing a post that MTH is so much better than DCC with no other feedback. The person might buy a DCS loco and controller only to find out that they are now stuck with only running DCS.