Hi Everyone, I am trying to find an article written within the last 2 years about laying track on several sub roadbeds the article mainly focussed on several product comparisons with noise levels and the glue used to hold down it had a very good reasoning for using the glue product . I believe it was run in Model Railroader magazine however I can't find it ( it may have been another publication ) Thanks Pete
Peter - Use Homasote or equivalent, and put your cork roadbed over that. Solid as a rock and quiet, too.
Jimmy
ROUTE ROCK!
Scratch the cork roadbed idea, cork will dry out over time and get brittle resulting in not only nosier track but crumbling roadbed.If you want double insurance you can use Homasote as subroadbed and use Homabed by Californian roadbed company for your roadbed material Homabed is a little pricey but well worth the investment They mill every piece so it's a perfect .1/4" thick and they cut the kerfs in the pieces with a CNC knife which does a far better job then you could ever hope to do with a razor blade but the biggest benefit is not having to deal with the God awful dust that comes from cutting Homasote on a table saw. In the past I have made my own Homasote roadbed by cutting a 45 degree angle on 2" wide strips of various lengths. Trust me when I say it isn't worth it.
The DAP 3.0 Latex Adhesive Caulk is the stuff you want to use. A little pricey at $6.00 + a tube but well worth it. The trick with using DAP is to get just the correct amount you don't want the stuff globed on so heavy that it starts to come up through the ties but just enough to not only hold the track in place but give some what of a cushion effect. I use a 1" putty knife to spread the bead out before placing the track on top of it.Make sure you get the clear stuff and not the white like I did recently. I just used it to hold the Homabed to the plywood subroadbed.
I am convinced this is the only way to glue down track and roadbed.
I use Midwest cork on half inch, four ply plywood subroadbed, everything held together with latex caulk. At proto speeds all is very quite but I get some wheel hiss at higher speeds.
Before getting started, I experimented by adding an additional layer of 1/8" cork on the plywood and ballasted with Modge Podge. I could not detect a difference.
Jim
Here in the Dessicated Desert, cork is a non-starter on any layout planned to last for more than a year or two.
My 'sandwich,' from riser tops to tie bottoms:
In a few places in my netherworld of hidden track the plywood gives way to steel studs installed rain gutter fashion.
Ballast, where used, is anchored with flexible matte medium. Hidden track isn't ballasted.
The major sound from my trains is gear whine from the sound-free locomotives, The more modern, quiet ones seem to have stealth characteristics. As for spiking hand-laid specialwork, the card stock and layers of caulk have more than adequate holding power even though foam is notorious for not holding spikes.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
The secret to sound attenuation in any medium or undertaking is to have a dual-density layer between the sounding object or medium (the rails) and the sound wave propagating medium...the air. Usually a single layer of cork or MDF or drywall or......anything other than the plastic ties....will do a good enough job between the tracks and the roadbed.
In my case, I have MDF spline roadbed supported by spruce risers. I used a thin layer of acrylic caulk between the planed roadbed and the ties. It may be that the ground goop attached to the sides of the splines also helps...wouldn't doubt it for a second...but my trains are very quiet with this arrangement.
On my yard module, a 5/8" plywood slab, I have a tunnel running behind it so that the yard is the item drawing attention. The tunnel is part of my main loop, and trains can whiz past the yard and station with no sound except muted or un-muted decoder chuff and whistle noises/sounds as I deign to make them. The only roadbed I have is a layer of the typical cork caulked to the ply, and the tracks caulked to the cork. Very quiet.
Try for two layers of something that you can carve/cut and lay for decent roadbed. One of them can simply be the thin layer of caulking.
-Crandell
fredswainI still use cork. I tried the Woodland Scenics roadbed and couldn't stand it. That layout now has cork. I like homasote. It is a good product but I'd use it under my roadbed material and not as it unless it is an industrial siding.
I've been hearing complaints like this about WS road bed a lot lately from several people. What didn't you like about it? I too have tried working with it, but its very difficult to use, its a shame because when ballasted, it absorbs the noise much better than cork in my opinion. The problem for me is, its hard to nail the track on top of it because of the 'bounce' due to the texture of the road bed. So you will have very unstable track if nailing it to the foam road bed. I don't have experience with caulk or glueing track, maybe this would work better?
Dave Vollmer uses WS roadbed exclusively for his n scale layout (I think) and it seems to work great for him. I myself am a little scared of investing all of that money for a product that may bring me nothing but frustration. And he lays it on top of foam, not homasote which I found to be interesting. I'm still deciding between homasote and pink foam myself, any suggestions?
My experience is that you can name the material or the technique and the consensus is it is awful but some guy somewhere has achieved wonderful results with it.
Me, I have had no problems with cork becoming brittle, and most of my cork was pulled up from another guy's previously finished layout. Homabed is nice stuff I agree, and I removed the portion of Woodland Scenics black foam roadbed that I had installed. But I am prepared to agree that it works well for some guys.
Many commentators have said that layouts get noisier when you add ballast. Like some of the above posting modelers, I too use flexible adhesive caulk to lay my flex track (I use those "your name here" phony credit cards I get in the junk mail to spread the bead of caulk, because they are as wide as HO roadbed) and I try to avoid pins or nails holding the rail in place, except as temporary measures while the caulk sets. Nailing your track adds noise.
More to the point I use enough caulk to force up between the ties (but not above them) and then I tamp a first layer of ballast into the caulk. If I do it just right that is all the ballasting I need. Sometimes I do need to add a bit more using matte medium soaked into it.
But the main thing is, the flex track is not being held in place by a hard crust of ballast and dried cement or glue or medium, but rather by the same slightly soft and flexible adhesive caulk that holds the ties to the subroadbed. It might add a bit of noise but not as much as the methods that create a hard crust of ballast + adhesive.
Dave Nelson
I have seen several layouts that used the WS roadbed that looked fine. I found it hard to work with. I had issues with the track consistently laying flat when glued down. Ballasting was also an issue since it is flexible. You can push the track down into it after the glue has dried and break the glue bond. The ballast can also come loose in spots after the glue has dried due to the flexibility. I suppose you can be very careful and then never touch it again but I may sometimes put some weight on the track leaning over to grab something. I just don't like it. Some people just have no problems.
Yes it seems to be more sound absorptive and is probably not prone to drying out. However I've never had a problem with cork drying out and any small sound deadening properties to me just aren't worth the hassles of laying it in the first place.
Foam seems to amplify rather than suppress noise. My n scale layout used pink foam and cork roadbed. The foam was used for easy terrain contouring. The trains aren't very loud at all. My sectional O scale layout uses cork straight on 1/4" plywood. Now that is loud benchwork! Homasote dampens noise. The reason is very simple. Mass. More and more people tend to build with lighter construction today yet they want their trains to be dead quiet. These 2 things are counter to each other but there are some ways to control noise that don't add lots of weight. My small O scale layout is loud but I live with it as it is sectional and intended to be moved easily. If it were heavy this wouldn't be as easy to do. I know the issues and live with it. If I were to build it out of a solid slab of granite, I could have track glued solid directly to it and you would hear nothing but the trains with no track noise. The presence of roadbed would have nothing to do with it.
When it comes to sound your benchwork is no different than a speaker box. The thinner and more open it is, the more it is going to resonate and the more you will hear it. There is always an exception to this of course. Heavier resonates less. In order to build fairly light but fairly quiet you need to isolate resonance from the benchwork. This is the point of roadbed products as they aren't only there to simulate prototype roadbed height. They all definitely do something over nothing. Homasote isolates sound in 2 ways and that is through some absorption but also by adding mass. It it quite dense. Campers tape is also absorptive isolation rather than mass dampening.
Ever heard a layout on a hollow core door? They are louder because the door is like a speaker box made out of 1/8" wood. It takes either lots of mass added to them or lots of absorption to quiet them but it's not impossible to do. Open grid construction is typically quieter than a rigid framework using a solid top since there are no large surfaces for sound to resonate through. It is many small surfaces put together. This also explains why the myth of ballasted track being louder also isn't really as bad as many make it out to be. It is a nearly imperceptable difference compared to being unballasted. Yes you add some rigidity but you also add mass, especially when using real rock ballast (Az. Rock and Mineral) as opposed to walnut shells (woodland scenics).
If you want a fairly light but solid top table that is quiet, it just takes a little effort. A good way would be to build a light framework using 1 x 3's as cross braces with 1 x 4's as the ends. Apply a 1/4" plywood deck. Then using contact cement, glue down a full layer of heavy jute which is what automotive carpet padding is. Then either attach another ply layer above it and build on top or preferably use the open grid technique where the only base material on top of the jute is the layer directly under the track with scenery covering everything else. This would be decently quiet and would also be fairly light in weight.
My layout uses WS trackbed with yellow glue holding it to 1/2" plywood and holding the track to the foam roadbed. It is extremely quiet. I've only had a very minor issue with ballast coming lose (didn't use enough glue). I use Arizona Rock and mineral real stone ballast.
Engineer Jeff NS Nut Visit my layout at: http://www.thebinks.com/trains/
For zero noise make your roadbed out of cement on a cement board base. I laid cork roadbed upside down to get the shoulder profile correct an slopped in the cement and caulked the track to the cement.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
rjake4454 Dave Vollmer uses WS roadbed exclusively for his n scale layout (I think) and it seems to work great for him. I myself am a little scared of investing all of that money for a product that may bring me nothing but frustration. And he lays it on top of foam, not homasote which I found to be interesting. I'm still deciding between homasote and pink foam myself, any suggestions?
I actually regret using the WS roadbed... It's too soft. I would use cork if I had to again. In fact, the plan is to relay with code 55 track, at which time I would relay with cork. The WS stuff is just too mushy and leads to lots of deflections in the track.
Modeling the Rio Grande Southern First District circa 1938-1946 in HOn3.
fredswainI tried the Woodland Scenics roadbed and couldn't stand it.
You probably should have pre-soaked it...
John
I always find this discussion about track noise interesting and often it gives me a chuckle.
When most everything we do we want a prototype for it, we add sound to our Locos and scenic areas of interest. but you want your trains quiet.
Have any of you Quiet Jocks ever stood beside a mainline, a shortline or a yard and heard Quiet running.
If you have I would sure like to know where, and don't give me the bullet trains scereno as you might not hear them coming but you sure hear them passing.
I don't really mind my trains making a little noise as long as it is 1/87 scale.
Johnboy out............................for now.
from Saskatchewan, in the Great White North..
We have met the enemy, and he is us............ (Pogo)
In response to the poster that paid $6.00 a tube for DAP clear acrylic latex caulk, I bought a 4-pack of white acrylic latex caulk from Walmart, and paid less than $4.00 for it. Since I'm going to ballast the track anyway, the color isn't an issue. I used 1/2" plywood for the subroadbed and Midwest's cork for the roadbed. Noise isn't an issue, except that I use metal wheels and like the clickety-clack noise they make when going over turnouts and crossings.
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
Dave Vollmerrjake4454 Dave Vollmer uses WS roadbed exclusively for his n scale layout (I think) and it seems to work great for him. I myself am a little scared of investing all of that money for a product that may bring me nothing but frustration. And he lays it on top of foam, not homasote which I found to be interesting. I'm still deciding between homasote and pink foam myself, any suggestions? I actually regret using the WS roadbed... It's too soft. I would use cork if I had to again. In fact, the plan is to relay with code 55 track, at which time I would relay with cork. The WS stuff is just too mushy and leads to lots of deflections in the track.
Thanks, I've had the same problems, it was extremely hard to lay track on that stuff.
last mountain & eastern hogger I always find this discussion about track noise interesting and often it gives me a chuckle. When most everything we do we want a prototype for it, we add sound to our Locos and scenic areas of interest. but you want your trains quiet. Have any of you Quiet Jocks ever stood beside a mainline, a shortline or a yard and heard Quiet running. If you have I would sure like to know where, and don't give me the bullet trains scereno as you might not hear them coming but you sure hear them passing. I don't really mind my trains making a little noise as long as it is 1/87 scale. Johnboy out............................for now.
Well, the problem is more with the type of noise that results from ballasting and glue. I like the clickety clack sound, but sometimes with cork on plywood this sound actually gets overpowered by an unnatural grinding noise. Also if you work in O gauge with Lionel's fastrack system, the sound of the trains going over the plastic, molded in track bed is far too loud and very distracting from the experience of running model trains.
When I say I'm trying to eliminate noise, I'm talking about these kinds of sounds that actually prevent you from hearing that natural clickety clack that appeals to so many of us.
The WS foam worked great for sound, but as mentioned its very difficult to use. Hopefully cork on homasote will provide me with better results this time around.
coralseaxt ...Problem solved it was an articles in How to build Realistic Reliable Track by MRM by Bob Kingsnorth pages 22-27 and is well worth the read if your replacing or building a new layout
...Problem solved it was an articles in How to build Realistic Reliable Track by MRM by Bob Kingsnorth pages 22-27 and is well worth the read if your replacing or building a new layout
I've used Cork and the WS roadbeds on several layout projects and will not go back - for me, the choice roadbed material is Homasote.
California Roadbed offers HOMABED brand pre-milled lengths and switch pads for all types of turnouts. The lengths are approximately the same as flextrack, and is available in straight or spline-cut curving sections that allow the material to follow your radii.
Each section comes pre-milled with accurate ballast shoulders(cork is too thin) for realistic trackage berms. It cuts and installs easily and offers an excellent substrata to attach ballast.
Cost is a little more but the end result is worth the few extra pennies and it offers substainal noise reduction.
Check them out at : http://www.homabed.com/site/890800/
HeritageFleet1