Although I like just about all eras of railroading, my favorite is definitely the late 1800's to early 1900's. Trains were still 'king' at that time (i.e., no cars or planes to worry about), and locomotives looked like rolling works of art.
I'd love to start modelling an era like this photo of a CNW in Rice Like, WI:
... but there's this big problem: No manufacturers make decent 4-4-0 steam locomotives like that! :(
The only 4-4-0's I've seen in HO scale that are from this era seem to be the Bachmann locos that have been around since I was a kid. To me, they look more like toys than models... at least by today's standards. I do own a few Bachmann Spectrum 4-4-0's which are VERY nice, but they are from a later era than I'd like to model.
What do you guys and gals who model this era do for locomotives? Why is there such slim-pickins when it comes to finding detailed model trains from this era? Is there just not enough interest? Is it too hard for manufacturers to make decent looking model locomotives given the small size and liberal use of shiny metals (like brass) that adorned these rolling works-of-art?
If there is a manufacturer out there that does make some detailed, realistic 4-4-0s, please let me know!
Sincerely,Todd M. Taylor The Unofficial $oo Line Diesel Roster
Shame you don't do On30 because they have several in that gauge.
Springfield PA
Hamltnblue Shame you don't do On30 because they have several in that gauge.
Yeah, that seems to be the case... but isn't almost all the narrow gauge stuff for the Denver & Rio Grande Railroad? That seems to be what I've found.
I'm assuming that the train like the one in the photo I posted wasn't a narrow gauge, correct?
I model the Tonopah and Tidewater RR, Bullfrog Goldfield RR and Las Vegas and Tonopah RR. These are all 1907-1918 pre-WW1 mining railroads in the Goldfield, Rhyolite region of Nevada. I use Bachmann engines and lots of Labelle cars. Short of getting a brass V&T engine, 4-4-0's of the era you are interested in are a problem. I am hoping that with the opening of the new Virginia and Truckee from Carson City to Virginia City last year, it will lead to a resurgence in interest in this era. - Nevin
Athearn has some small steam from the era(ex MDC/Roundhouse engines), and Bachmann has a 4-6-0 & 4-4-0 in their 'Spectrum' line of HO products.
Jim
Modeling BNSF and Milwaukee Road in SW Wisconsin
The Roundhouse engine is older than the Spectrum engine, but has a straight boiler.
Some people have swapped the AHM/Bachmann boiler on the Roundhouse chassis.
Here are some picks of my equipment:
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
I run a Fanfare type based on that era from time to time
51% share holder in the ME&O ( Wife owns the other 49% )
ME&O
UncBobI run a Fanfare type based on that era from time to time
Is that a Bachmann loco?
Another thing to consider is you could take one of the "toy" bachmanns and re-paint it.
For me, the "American" of the 1860´s and 1870´s has always been the most "American" of all steam locos. About a year ago, I started a similar thread, as I could not find any 4-4-0 from that period, other than Bachmann´s outdated and toyish locos.
The sad end of that thread is the following conclusion: There aren´t any others around! Apparently a loco of the type that built America is not of interest to the Athearns, Atlas, BLI´s or MTH´s of this world - you can probably earn more money by marketing the umpteenth Big Boy, Challenger or Cab Forward.
What a pity!
If you are lucky, you´ll be able to find a brass 4-4-0, which are a little oversize, but in any case better than Bachmann´s.
Sir MadogThe sad end of that thread is the following conclusion: There aren´t any others around!
I figured this was the case
I wonder if the manufacturers don't make the old locomotives because there is no interest, or if there appears to be no interest because almost no one makes them!
I suppose we should be thankful that at least Bachmann makes the historic locomotives, but it sure would be nice if they'd re-do them as Spectrum locos.</end dreaming sequence>
The only old timer 4-4-0 I've ever seen in real life would be the one in the museum in Duluth, MN. I couldn't believe how ornate it was... the old black and white photos don't do justice to what the locomotives really look like:
I suppose one thing that scares-away most manufacturers is this: link & pin couplers! Do any HO models have link and pin couplers!?!?
Todd M. TaylorUncBobI run a Fanfare type based on that era from time to time Is that a Bachmann loco?
It is either a Bachmann --IHC--Rivarossi
They are all the same
BTW I don't find them "Toy Like"
Those engines were very plain in hardware and from what I can see from pictures they have all the detail
They are about 10% too large in scale
Main thing I don't like is the engine in the tender with that drive shaft going to the loco
With the way they can manufacture N Scale today they should be able to make a true HO scale with the engine in the loco
By the fact that Riva--IHC and Bachmann all made them it seems to me they would be a market out there for a decent true scale unit
Here is a bigger pic
If you are willing to search and buy second-hand, the AHM - Rivarossi -IHC old time 4-4-0's are nicer than the Bachmann "golden spike" locomotives (and yes, they are over sized). Another second-hand option might be the Mantua General; it is all metal, but the detailing level is on par with model trains designed in the late 1950's or early 60's.
Very few people will model the 1800's when there are no decent quality locomotives available. There are some very nice craftsman rolling stock kits on the market from small manufacturers.
Todd M. Taylor I wonder if the manufacturers don't make the old locomotives because there is no interest, or if there appears to be no interest because almost no one makes them!
That, in fact, is the situation. The last hobby survey I saw regarding what eras hobbyists model indicated that those doing pre-WWI amounted to only a couple of percent. From the manufacturers' point of view, that's simply too few to take a chance on making any quality, early era specific, HO motivepower. With few exceptions, even accurate rollingstock of the period can be difficult to come by, although some kits are available and there have been articles on converting some crudely representative plastic cars into more acceptible models.
CNJ831
Yes, locos are a hard find unless you are willing to settle for the Bachmann or older stuff you may find floating around a trains show.
I have an N scale bachmann oldie I run around under the xmas tree, but I hear the Bachmann 4-4-0's in HO have problems negotiating switches unless one modifies them to pick up on all wheels. SO I haven't yet bought the Ho matching version. I would also want it DCC as I am the last one to try installing decoders and such...especially since those locos appear tight to put one in.
Now on another note I, too, would someday like to have a late 1800's-early 1900's layout someday when I have extra room. SO I saved a few links and a discussion about old time freight cars that might interest you, beside whats currently available from Roundhouse {cuz you gotta have something to pull behind those beautifull locos:'
B.T.S. War Between the States Series - USMRR Nine-Stake Flatcar
Early Rail 28 ft. PRR Catlle Car
Trains.com - Model Railroader - Online Community - 1870-1890 freight cars
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
Yup, it is not the lack of detail (which could easily be added), that disqualifies the Bachmann locos as toys - it is their bad running characteristics.
Just to wet your appetite, Caboose Hobbies sells this beauty for a little under 400 bucks:
Imagine, BLI or MTH releasing a "Golden Spike" set for the same price, with two beautifully decorated and detailed 4-4-0´s! I would beg, steal or borrow to get my hands on such a set! With a little marketing,I guess, there´d be a market for it - and not "only" collectors.
The strasburg RR has a few loco's from the 1800's
http://www.nsrm-friends.org/nsrm98.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olomana_%28locomotive%29
Sir MadogCaboose Hobbies sells this beauty for a little under 400 bucks
Droooooooool....
When I say that the Bachmann series are 'toy like', I'm referring to the lack of detail (compared to today's trains) and plastic look... not too mention they look too big and have an unrealistic looking hunk of wires hanging out of the tender. One of my Bachmann Spectrum 4-4-0's has real wood for the tender load, where as the non-Spectrum 4-4-0's just have a brown, molded wood load. Seems like a person would have to be a pretty skilled modeler to make the regular 4-4-0's look like I'd like (and I'm not that skilled yet).
Ironically, the TV show "Petticoat Junction" is on right now
Todd,
As a fellow CNW modeler, I have to say On30 would not be a problem. I have considered modeling the CNW dinky line that ran from Fennimore, WI to Woodman Wisconsin. FWIW I would recommend picking up the book "The Dinky, C@NW Narrow Gauge in Wisconsin" from the CNW historcial society. The Fennimore to Woodman line ran American style locomotives, The Bachmann locomotives would be a very close match. The line also ran 2-6-0 mogul locomotivse, I think a kitbash starting from a Bachmann loco would be a good choice if you are trying to model the strict prototype.
Sean
The lack of locos and rolling stock out of the first 50 years of railroads seems to be a universal issue. A quick check into what is available in France, Germany and the UK only brought meager results. Marklin/Trix offered a model of the first loco in Germany, "Adler", a 2-2-2 built by Stephenson in Manchester, some time ago. Piko has a model of the "Saxonia" from 1839, the first loco built in Germany, but that´s about it. There were some hand-made locos from MicroMetakit and others, but with prices in the $ 3,000 range way out of question. I did not find anything in France and the UK, which resembled the early years of railroading. Most of the stuff is from the 1890´s and later, the mainstay being the 1920´s and 30´s.
Seems as if one has to rely on scratch building.
SeanthehackI have considered modeling the CNW dinky line that ran from Fennimore, WI to Woodman Wisconsin.
Funny you should mention that line... my wife and I went through Fennimore last Fall and looked a their rail display. I guess the locomotive they have on display there is not the real "Dinky", but it sure is small!
That loco seems a little *too* small for me. Notice that this loco has a link & pin coupler... has anyone every tried to model that in HO scale? I could see it being done in G scale, but in smaller scales, I have no idea how that would work.
The lumberjack museum in Rhinelander, WI, also has a narrow gauge loco on display of which I'm assuming is pretty old based on the link & pin couplers:
Here in Wisconsin, the only regularily operating steam train we have is #4 in Laona which I saw for the first time last year as well. I absolutely LOVE that locomotive! For some reason, I like the sweet smell of burning coal Granted, this loco is a little *newer* since it has normal couplers and the like, but it's pretty close to the era I'd like to model.
One benefit I see of modelling this era of railroading is that you can do it in a relatively small space. For many, a 4x8 sheet of plywood might be all the space they can afford (in terms of dollars AND space). At least in HO scale, that really limits what you can model. For example most modern diesels with 3 axle trucks and some 80 ft box cars don't fit very well on a 4x8 layout. Unfortunately, I own quite a bit of more modern locomotives and cars and I don't think I'll ever build a layout big enough to really justify using any of them Doh!
True, there are no currently available HO Americans other than the Bachmann models, which are very poor runners as well as toy-like in appearance. Still, there are a growing number of modelers who are adapting out-of-production brass and older metal and plastic locomotives to enable them to model 19th century railroads. Much of their effort is detailed in two Yahoo discussion groups you should check for examples and suggestions on how to proceed. These are:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Civil_War_RRs/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EarlyRail/
Some of the contributors also have their own websites or blogs, which are helpful as well as inspiring. See, for example, the following:
http://www.gardenstatecentral.com/radice/radice09.html
http://www.sandcrr.com/
http://www.housatonicrr.com/
As you will see, though you cannot expect to model 19th century railroads with ready-made equipment from the big model manufacturers, if you are willing to make what you need yourself, there are materials and kits with which to work. You will note that appropriate kits and parts for rolling stock, structures, and track are almost all produced by small US home businesses--not the major import firms that supply most of the hobby. Unfortunately these small suppliers have not yet turned their hand to motive power. Were some of them to do so, I think this area of modeling would expand much faster. It would be especially nice if any of them were to produce the kind of etched brass kits that are available in the UK for small runs of early locomotives. Failing that, perhaps, a few innovators will begin to offer resin or soft metal parts with which to upgrade and adapt readily available 4-4-0 chassis like those formerly made by Mantua, AHM, etc. BTS, a firm that makes a great line of early freight car and structure kits, has announced plans to do just this for the Mantua General. Clearly we need to support and encourage such efforts.
Frank
Hello,
I´m also a BIG lover of the 1860-1890 era, and I also suffer from the lack of such models in HO scale. I´m a big western films fan, and those classy trains are my favorite ones! What I really didn´t know was that the Bachmann 4-4-0´s are 10% overscaled/too big! I actually thought that they are too small! Because when looking at pictures or videos of an Bachmann 4-4-0 in front of Old Time passenger cars, the 4-4-0 always seems to be much too small in my eyes, since the roofs of the passenger cars are clearly higher than the roof of the locomotive cab. In my eyes that doesn´t look well, I think that the cab-roof of the locomotive should be as high as the roofs of the passenger cars to form a straight line. So bad that only Bachmann and AHM/Rivarossi offer/offered these locos. By the way, I think that the AHM/Rivarossi 4-4-0´s look way better than the Bachmann engine, both in detail and colors and somehow material. I also miss the 2-6-0 Mogul engines, because what the 4-4-0´s were for passenger trains, the 2-6-0´s were for freight trains between 1850 and 1900. My dream for HO scale would be a nicely detailed typical western film-like 4-4-0 and 2-6-0 featuring DCC, Sound, Smoke and Lighting (as for road names, SP, T&P, AT&SF, D&RGW are very welcomed). Also they should have strong (maybe 5 pole?) motors and traction tires, so that they can pull 9 open-platform passenger or 20 freight cars on 2-3% grades without problems, because when you look at the Bachmann/AHM/Rivarossi locos, they hardly handle more than 5 cars. When it comes to passenger cars, certain types are missing as well. Roundhouse, LaBelle and others do some open-platform mail cars, baggages, combines, coaches and business cars, but open-platform sleepers and diners are totally missing, although they have definetly been in service since the 1860´s. And I also miss the fact that there are absolutely no open-platform Old Time ready to run passenger cars available in HO scale that offer car interiors and the possibility to install interior lighting as well. Freight cars are as well underrepresented. Roundhouse does some Old Time box cars, stock cars and reefers, but there are still no good ready to run flat cars, gondolas and tank cars from that era. Hope MTH, BLI, Athearn, Roundhouse or Walthers will one day do something (more) about it.
Regards, Daniel
If you are willing to assemble models, early freight cars are not underrepresented in HO.Keep in mind that today's resin and laser kits are not all that difficult to assemble, particularly those for the much simpler early rolling stock. Of course, they aren't produced by the big import companies that sell mass, ready-to-run stock. They are made by small, largely home-based, US firms that do so as much out of love of the hobby as interest in profit. These firms generally can't afford to advertise in major media or offer their products through standard distribution channels. So you have to locate and deal with them directly, usually over the Internet. For an up-to-date list of what's available in this regard, see:
http://www.earlyrail.org/freight-cars.html
Actually, Bachmann can be easily modified to almost any configuration.
HOGTRAINZ.COM
Todd
As CNJ stated, there just aren't very many of us actually modeling any pre-WW1 era. I am one of those few. Of course, you didn't define your era very tightly, either. All through railroading history, there have pretty significant changes over a 20 year period, and that certainly applies to 1870s through 1910.
From the photo you provide, I would hazard a guess that the caboose is at least 10 years newer than the locomotive. The "fluted" domes but square counterweights say 1880s to me. I don't remember cupolas being common on a caboose until pretty close to 1900.
The Spectrum 4-4-0 is a model of a 1902 (could be early by 4 years) engine. The basic design was in use by about 1890, so it could be plausible for a 1895-1900 engine, especially if you get the wood cab variant. But even these are technically out of production at present.
At least one poster mentioned that the Bachmann 1870s 4-4-0s were oversize. I don't believe that to be the case. The Rivarossi (AHM) 4-4-0s are definitely oversize, as are the Tyco/Mantua 1890s 4-6-0 and 4-8-0. But the Bachmann 4-4-0 and Tyco/Mantua General are pretty close to scale, although somewhat crude and lacking detail.
Cary (now Bowser) made a Pittsburgh boiler casting to fit the General drive. The cylinder size of the General is too small for the larger, more modern boiler, but it can make a passable model. Don't know if Bowser still has any in stock, though.
The other reasons we are unlikely (I never give up hope) to ever see mass-produced 4-4-0s of the late 19th Century is the price/performance dilemma. Very, very few modelers are willing to pay the same price for a 4-4-0 as they will pay for a 4-8-4, yet the 4-4-0 is actually more costly to engineer and produce. An example: motor location is a no-win situation. There are modelers who will refuse to buy an engine with a tender-mounted motor, no matter how well it is done. The low cost location of the traditional firebox/cab leaves no space for a flywheel, a tail-heavy 4-4-0, and lost traction and tracking. Putting the motor in the boiler takes the space of weight required for traction, and requires some kind of reduction drive from the motor shaft to the parallel, but lower, worm shaft. Bachmann cogged belts are not an acceptable solution to all, but spur gears tend to be a noisy alternative.
To cut all new tooling will force a retail price of at least $200 in today's market, and $300 might be more realistic. If "cute" enough, an 1880s 4-4-0 would probably sell single copies to a lot of modelers of other eras. Especially if paired with some reasonably accurate open platform passenger cars. But there aren't enough of us who would buy several to a half dozen to fill out a normal roster of the period. And at $300 per, you are in the price range of used brass. So your detail has to be equal to, and the performance better than used brass to garner the necessary sales. Not impossible requirements, but it would be a risky investment.
Of course, if you know of suitable investors I will be happy to accept a commission from them to design and have a good 1880s 4-4-0 produced.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
....modeling foggy coastal Oregon, where it's always 1900....
Closer look
Here is a short video of one in operation
Pulling 6 Overlands weighted to 5.5 ounces