Agreed, was thinking the same thing
Well here is an old photo. I am much further along on the layout now. The only remnants of the old room are the painting over the fireplace and the oak mantel. Both will be removed when I put in the mountainside that will go in that spot. I really like the painting so it will stay as long as possible.
Here is the crew lounge at the other end of the room. Some things are just too important to trade for layout space.
This shelving unit is next to go when it will be replaced by a waterfront scene.
Sorry I have no "before" photos that aren't in photo albums and it would take ages to find them.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
The agent might have been correct in her observation, but she flunks in the tact department. It's none of her business what you do with the house while you are living in it. It would only become her business if and when you decide to sell it and then only if you hired her as your agent.
An existing model railroad is not going to be an asset when selling a house. There is only a small percentage of the house buying public that is into model railroading and it's likely that even some of them are not going to want an existing layout. They are going to want something they can call their own. I would guess that it is a rare occasion when a house is sold with a layout as-is included. I recall reading about Allen McClelland trying to sell his original V&O layout with his home when he was getting ready to down size. This was one of the most famous model railroads in the world and still he couldn't get a nibble. Non-model railroaders would not appreciate what he had and I doubt many model railroaders would have chosen to buy a house just to get the model railroad, even one as grand as the V&O. I'm sure it was a painful decision for him to dismantle something he had put so much into, but that was the reality of the situation.
In my case, I plan to get carried out of my house so I doubt this is a decision I will ever have to make. It will be left up to my executor to decide what to do with my layout and it will probably be an easy call for him to make.
Live Steam magazine sometimes has ads for houses and proprties that have machine shops and live steam railroads on them.
Dennis Blank Jr.
CEO,COO,CFO,CMO,Bossman,Slavedriver,Engineer,Trackforeman,Grunt. Birdsboro & Reading Railroad
jecorbettThe agent might have been correct in her observation, but she flunks in the tact department. It's none of her business what you do with the house while you are living in it. It would only become her business if and when you decide to sell it and then only if you hired her as your agent.
It's a symptom of the mentality that's gotten us into the mess we're in today. The real estate agent (and many of her clients) treat homes as commodity investments instead of, well, homes. To her, doing this is like putting bumper stickers all over a leased car.
From the look of the rest of the room, I'm guessing the former set-up was pretty nice. I'm guessing she saw the layout in it's incomplete form as in the picture above. That could have caused her over-the-top reaction, especially if she's never seen a properly sceniced model railroad before. It doesn't look like you've done any damage to the room, and your benchwork looks to be clean and neat. The only thing I would consider would be to not show the room to your non-modeler friends until you have scenery, but I fail to see what the problem is. I've been in homes stacked up with all kinds of stuff, and an unfinished railroad is easily less offensive than huge piles of clothes, rooms stuffed with plastic bins filled with who-knows-what, or outright junk.
Would I want it if I were buying your house? No, but I want my own railroad, not anybody else's. Of all the home layout's I've visited, I can only think of one I would keep if I were to buy that house, and it's the wrong scale.
Milepost 266.2It's a symptom of the mentality that's gotten us into the mess we're in today. The real estate agent (and many of her clients) treat homes as commodity investments instead of, well, homes. To her, doing this is like putting bumper stickers all over a leased car.
A friend had a similar experience with his small motor home. He uses it quite extensively, so when it went in for servicing the miles were adding up fast. On being informed he "was ruining its resale value", his response was that he bought it to use and enjoy. And the dividends it was paying in pleasure was well worth the investment. The idea that it might be considered an "investment" in the commercial sense was ridiculous to his mind. Money is a necessary lubricant for a decent life, but for some, like that real estate agent, it seems to be the only focus of life.
If ever I were to put my house on the market I would clean it up and de-clutter, and a model railroad would come under that category since few will want to deal with it. Clear spaces let a buyer visualize how he can use or redevelop the room. But like others, I have no intention of moving until health makes it necessary.
Looking at it from the other direction, how many of us when house hunting have skipped over a candidate because the owner had divided the basement into a number of smaller rooms and we didn't want the hassle of tearing half of it out?
John
To the OP, she had no right to say anything, however, whether you like it or not, if you do ever sell, you will have to take it down so people really can see the room, if you realy want to sell.
Other people who are interested in buying houses will tear apart any house based on it's decor, clutter-ness, cramp-ness etc. THey cannot see past the stuff to the house, unless the house is totally empty. even 10 year old perfectly good recently new appliances in the kitchen will get remarks aobut being "old, outdated" and pretty much if you aint got granite countertops and stainless steel appliances boy oh boy is your kitchen outdated!
I have watched enough home buying/selling shows on tv to know that is true. ANd since we are kinda in the market for a house, we have ocassionally gone to open houses, and been just as guilty at rating a house based on its furnishings, rather than the house itself even though we know better!
SO go and enjoy your room and dont wory about it!
-G .
Just my thoughts, ideas, opinions and experiences. Others may vary.
HO and N Scale.
After long and careful thought, they have convinced me. I have come to the conclusion that they are right. The aliens did it.
My brother does work on the side for realtors. One of the jobs he does for them is "cleanouts". These are done on a contract basis and usually amount to several hundred dollars in cost based on the amount of 'clutter" to be removed. Occasionally I help him with these as there is usually a tight deadline. However, sometimes it is a house that has sat on the listing for a while and has not moved. When we get there we usually discover why it has not moved. Junk! Lots of it. It is amaizing how fast these houses move once we clean them out. sometimes we also have to fix any issues and give the insides a coat of paint. About 3-4 years ago he called me to come look at something he found in a basement. Knowing my brother I was unsure of what to expect. Getting there I found a basement full of a model railroad. Now before anyone gets too excited I will simply put it this way, it was junk. The widow, now in a nursing home, thought that the new owners would love it so she left it. Well, her kids did as she wished. There were no structures or rolling stock just trackwork and some less than stellar scenery. I think I salvage one Peco switch out of the whole thing before the recip saw came out. Two hours later the entire basement was broom swept clear and by the end of the day the entire house was the same way. We came back the next day and painted a couple of rooms including the basement (semi finished). I heard that two days later they had a full asking price contract on a house that had previously sat for two years with out so much as an offer
I'd love to see this ad "Train room for sale: 30x50 layout with finished scenery and DCC. Includes 2bdr 2 bath dwelliing..."
Actually I think real estate agents don't know how to market a house with a layout so they would rather not deal with it. I do know that when I was house shopping most of the places were finished in the same manner with bland colors cheap carpet and a generally sterile appearance. How many of us have bought a house and then repainted recapeted etc? Why should the seller pay for remodeling when it's all going to get torn out anyway? The one I ended up with had been cleaned (whichis good) but not redecorated which made it stand out in my mind. Orange and yellow shag will do that.
Wish I had know the V+O was up for grabs, I may living in a different town now. But ads never mention such a critter just like my other hobby of old cars. I saw a couple places where the owner had his/her hobby removed from the house for better salability.
Or for that matter I may have bought or become caretaker of the V+O. True it wouldn't be "mine" in the sense I built it but, I worked for it, paid for it, moved it, modified it and could easily add my own rolling stock.
As a possible solution, what about some sort of classifieds where layouts to be dismantled can be sold or given to a new home. Carefull deconstruction can keep a layout mostly intact like Dick Elwell (sp?) did.
Modeling the Cleveland and Pittsburgh during the PennCentral era starting on the Cleveland lakefront and ending in Mingo junction
ruderunnerI'd love to see this ad "Train room for sale: 30x50 layout with finished scenery and DCC. Includes 2bdr 2 bath dwelliing..."
It seems to me that I have seen ads like that - in the back of MR, of course. It would be the logical place to advertise, along with standard, boring ads in the real estate section.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Lets face it the average model railroad out there is not the one from the magazines.
MisterBeasley . Now, remembering that most Americans are not model railroaders, a layout is not a plus.
. Now, remembering that most Americans are not model railroaders, a layout is not a plus.
What a pity!! What do they do??? 8<))
Ernie C
To echo what was stated earlier, if Allen McCelland couldn't sell the V&O, one of the nations premere layouts, and throw the house in, chances we mere mortals will have a tough time selling our model railroad empire. Plus the V&O was in the basement. Lets face it, most basements are just crap-catchers anyway! We moved to western Colorado a few years before the V&Os demise. I told my wife, if we were still in Ohio, we might be moving to West Carrollton instead.
DrilineNice..house! It's not an igloo like I thought it was going to be.
That's just because he is in BC. The rest of western Canada live in igloo's and travel by dog sled. BC is more like an annex of the US so houses there are just like yours and they have motorcars...
As a person who was a real estate agent for many years, I take offense to the person who completely insulted ALL real estate agents. Not all real estate agents are bad and conversely not all are good. That's the nature of the game. If I were to say that "buyers are liars" you'd probably get offended if you were a home buyer. Sadly this is a saying in the real estate community and often does in fact apply quite well much of the time. Maybe I should say EVERYONE who plays with trains is an immature simpleton incapable of rational thought. Of course that would apply to me as well so of course I'd never think that! You get the idea.
Profession aside, I see both sides of the argument. I even listed a house that had a room devoted to Lionel with a large layout. I actually didn't want to sell that house as I liked going over there! As a general rule I would advise my clients to put away personal articles and keep the house tidy as well as keeping yard landscaped and organized. It's understood that you live there but at the same time it shouldn't look like a pig pen. First impressions do count. One of the first things I'd recommend be removed were refrigerator magnets and pictures. You wouldn't believe at how offended some women got over that suggestion! Many people often have too many pictures on the wall. For end tables and night stands you recommended they follow the "rule of 3" which was 3 different sized accessories and that's it. No more and preferably no less. For some reason it is just pleasing to the eye. I found that many sellers found this step quite fun as it gave them a little chance to play interior decorator.
Saying all of this, I only mentioned it as a suggestion and never forced anyone to actually follow through with it if they didn't want to. I also showed a list of things that could effect the sale of the house and to most people's surprise there are more things that THEY have control over that can affect the sale of their house than the agent has control over and I made sure they were well aware what those things were. If the house didn't sell, we'd go back over the list to see what needed to be improved. Feedback from potential buyers also was very helpful.
As far as a large layout is concerned, first off if you are going to move anyways, why not just take it down? You will have to at some point anyways. Do you really want to rush to get it out of there in the 30 days or so that you are going to try to close if you get a contract? Do you want lots of people coming through playing with your stuff? Would you be happy with unattended children running loose in there? Keep in mind this almost certainly will happen at some point. Parents are looking at the house, not watching their children. If your room has some outstanding feature to it, do you really want it hidden behind your mountain? You may have a layout that is worth everything to you that you are really proud of. A potential buyer will probably see it as this really neat looking thing that needs to get torn down somehow and they won't see it as something adding to the value of the house. Their perception of the room may also be thrown off by it's presence. It really depends how large it is. If this is a 4 x8 layout, it probably won't matter. If it takes up the entire room floor to ceiling, it probably will.
I did foreclosures for a while. Many of those houses were in bad physical shape but were structurally sound. Many of them were fine but were just very dirty. Although I'd advise people to look past the dirt to see it's true potential, the fact is that many people just can't. Many can. However if your house is already showing off it's true potential, and by that I don't mean how large of a layout can you get into it, then you have opened up more potential to get a sale. This goes back to the list I'd get together ahead of time. If it wasn't followed and the house didn't sell, I didn't want blame coming back on me when it may have been due to something the seller didn't do. It happens.
Now keep in mind that I would never force anyone to do anything they didn't want to. I made them aware of potential issues and made suggestions but that was it. I never insulted their interests or looked down on them. That was where that agent messed up but to suggest that it may be better to remove it was not bad advice. What is worth lots to you is meaningless to someone else and remember that not everyone can see past it. While you may not think that's an issue, it may cost you a buyer which may lead to you leaving the house on the market longer and getting less for it later. You never know. The agent doesn't have sole control over the sale of your house. You have lots of it too and are just as responsible if it doesn't sell and in fact are almost always going to be the main party at fault if it doesn't.
JSperanDrilineNice..house! It's not an igloo like I thought it was going to be. That's just because he is in BC. The rest of western Canada live in igloo's and travel by dog sled. BC is more like an annex of the US so houses there are just like yours and they have motorcars...
Ya I use to call Winnipeg home until I saw the light warmth.
Did Allen McCallend market his house towards the model railroading community? I dont recall it being advertised in Model Railroader or anything like that. It was too bad it is gone. That was a part of model railroading history.
ChevelleSSguy Did Allen McCallend market his house towards the model railroading community? I dont recall it being advertised in Model Railroader or anything like that. It was too bad it is gone. That was a part of model railroading history.
I don't know about the guy you mentioned, but W. Alan McClelland (V&O) did try to offer his house for sale to model railroaders with the layout intact. No takers. There were a number of mentions in various places at the time.
BATMANSo I ask you, did you or would you take your layout down to sell your house? I may be talked into including it in the sale of the house, but I don't think I would take it down. What if it didn't sell. Your left with a boring old family room once again.
I know this post has been around for a little while since I responded early on. Batman, my question is, what was your decision and is your house on the market? If ti is, good luck!!
There's never time to do it right, but always time to do it over.....
HaroldAI know this post has been around for a little while since I responded early on. Batman, my question is, what was your decision and is your house on the market? If ti is, good luck!!
I believe he said he was just having a real--estate agent for dinner, not selling.
Something else to consder, if your gonna have strange people in, it wouldn't be bad to get the layout out of the way so things don't walk away. All you need is a coat rolled under your arm, and cars, engines, can walk away. It;s highly unlikely, but even non-mrrs can see money, and a BLI will leave more easily than can a Plasma TV. This goes for other items that might be in a house.
rrebell Lets face it the average model railroad out there is not the one from the magazines.
-Morgan
He hasn't posted on it in a month so maybe he's simply still running trains and not killing his layout.
Springfield PA
He is not selling the house, it was just a rant. In the _first post_, he said
BATMAN Now we are not planning a move at this time, but it got me thinking.
Now we are not planning a move at this time, but it got me thinking.
Amazing how long this thread about nothing has lasted.
I don't know about others but it gave me some info. If you figure that every house will be sold at some point, it's good to know what others have heard or experienced so that we know what's ahead. Looks like most layouts will meet the chopping block before a house is put on the market or after the home hasn't sold.
FlashwaveI believe he said he was just having a real--estate agent for dinner, not selling.
My guess is that they're not all that palatable. Probably stringy, gristley and a bit chewy, and taste like old shoe leather.
jwhittenMy guess is that they're not all that palatable. Probably stringy, gristley and a bit chewy, and taste like old shoe leather. John
A little HP sauce goes a long way.
After my Rant, I am still pondering over what I would do if I ever were to list the house. Maybe it would be a good time for a fresh start and a new layout. No matter what, with moving my current one it is unlikely to fit ideally into a new home anyway. However if it didn't matter if we sold or not I would not take it down just in case it didn't. I'm a realtors worst nightmare
Coquihala and Rock CreekDriline, a Canadian House is round made out of compact snow with a tunnel portal as an entry way that you have to crawl into. Great in the winter but doesn't stay too well in the summer... When we moved 3 years ago the train was on a 4X8 in the corner of the rec room in the basement.
Driline, a Canadian House is round made out of compact snow with a tunnel portal as an entry way that you have to crawl into. Great in the winter but doesn't stay too well in the summer...
When we moved 3 years ago the train was on a 4X8 in the corner of the rec room in the basement.
C&RC, I live up here and didn't know that Igloos had basements.......
from Saskatchewan, in the Great White North..
We have met the enemy, and he is us............ (Pogo)
It's been said before but to put it bluntly, she's right and it ain't even close.
The worst thing that can be done to a house (and remember we are talking about selling it not owning it) is to over customize and devoting a large space to a rather restricted hobby is about a worst case scenario.
This also applies to decorations, color schemes, even bathrooms.
And in your case you 'over-customized' the BEST (by your own and everyone else's admission) room in the house.
Hey but it is your house and you have a choice when it comes time to sell: Tear out the layout and redo the room or expect rock-bottom dollar for the place, your choice.
Remember nothing is worth what we think it is worth, it is only worth what the buyer is willing to pay.
And as to not hiring her, I would. She was completely honest (is not even vaguely tactful) with you about the damage you did to the resale value of the house and do you have any idea of how many of these agents will lie to your face just to get you to list with them? Swallow your pride and listen to a professional's opinion.
IRONROOSTER One of the benefits of having an agent to sell your house is: she is an expert on selling a house and knows what needs to be done to sell it in your market.
One of the benefits of having an agent to sell your house is: she is an expert on selling a house and knows what needs to be done to sell it in your market.
Not necessarily true. I would have thrown the realtor out of my home for spouting off about the layout that way. Especially since you weren't even trying to sell yourt home!
About ten years ago I built a 3 bed room ranch (Topeka KS) with a rectangular 30' x 50' unfinnished basement. The basement was designed with the stairs and utilities so an HO scale shelf style layout could be built around the walls. I was single at the time and took my track plan to the contractor and said that I wanted a three bed room house built on top of this basement. I work in healthcare administration and subject to unexpected job changes. I constructed my layout in modular (dominoes) constructed from quality plywood. The layout was attached to the basemnt walls with 1/4" anchor bolts and the 6' dominos were connected with 1/4" carriage bolts. The layout was designed so I could move it. JOB CHANGE Unfortunatley I moved 500 mi to an apartment and had to leave the layout with the house. I had not completed any scenery, but the layout track was down with Atlas/Walthers Code 83 track, and the layout was wired for DCC with a 12ga bus wire and power districts. The layout was operational.
A few years later I was visiting the LHS in Topeka and the owner said "nice layout" I didn't remember him seeing the layout, but I had purchased a lot of the materials from this LHS. He told me that the people who had purchased my home, the wife refused to move into the house while the layout was there. The husband contacted the LHS and asked them if they would remove the layout for free. The LHS owner said he and his son went to the home and removed the layout intact by disconnecting the sections as I had designed. No demolition was required. He said he stored the sections in his garage for several months and sold it to a retired guy. They reassembled the layout, with some minor modifications into this guys basement. I didn't ask what he sold the layout for.
I am now married, but same problem. I let my wife build her dream home (Topeka KS) above my new 1800 sq ft basement, which was designed for my dream layout. JOB CHANGE We are now in an apartment 500 miles from the layout. I was again using domino construuction in case of a move. I plan to retire in the next ten years and we are keeping the layout, I mean our home. We get back home about once a month and wife (retired teacher) spends some time there and some time here.
I have a small work bench in the apartment and I am spending time converting locos to DCC/Sound and building kits.
I really don't care what a realator thinks, but when it comes time to sell this home the new layout can be easily removed.
Jim, Modeling the Kansas City Southern Lines in HO scale.