steinjr CNJ831As it was, very little in the way of how one can overcome, or outright avoid, some of the classic caricaturish modeling pitfalls in layout design and construction, such as those cited by John, was offered. You have a great looking layout by any rational standards. Why don't you start a new thread about some techniques you have used on your layout to make your scenes look realistic? I am sure quite a few of us (even though we are perhaps regrettably "non-advanced" by your standards) would be very interested in taking part in such a thread. Smile, Stein
CNJ831As it was, very little in the way of how one can overcome, or outright avoid, some of the classic caricaturish modeling pitfalls in layout design and construction, such as those cited by John, was offered.
You have a great looking layout by any rational standards. Why don't you start a new thread about some techniques you have used on your layout to make your scenes look realistic?
I am sure quite a few of us (even though we are perhaps regrettably "non-advanced" by your standards) would be very interested in taking part in such a thread.
Smile, Stein
Stein, I would be only too happy to do so were this site re-organized into one where serious modeling and modeling techniques was a separate and distinct sub forum. I have occasionally posted such material elsewhere and already offered to do so here in the recent thread regarding possibly creating a new forum format...providing such a more appropriate format was indeed instituted. As I recall, MR forum members posting to that thread were strongly against any such changes. C'est la vie.
That being so, posting long, detailed and heavily illustrated instructional threads, taking considerable effort to create, and having such tossed in amid a host of other posts that are basically jabber of little worth, then watching them slip into oblivion on page 10 after a day or two, holds absolutely no interest for me.
CNJ831
John,I agree..About 2-3 years ago I did a topic on modeling IIRC a short line..It was buried in less then 2 days..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
CNJ831 That being so, posting long, detailed and heavily illustrated instructional threads, taking considerable effort to create, and having such tossed in amid a host of other posts that are basically jabber of little worth, then watching them slip into oblivion on page 10 after a day or two, holds absolutely no interest for me.
Many-paged threads are reserved for non-modeling subjects.
Long, detailed and heavily illustrated instruction subjects belong in magazines where the author is compensated. However, quick tips would be handy.
Mark
Boy did a nerve get struck this time. I had a feeling that this thing was going to become a rallying poinnt for some kind of debate about how the forum was going to unfold here---and here we are going over it again. And the kvetching about what people write about is just being a distracton from the real issue. That being that there may be a better way to format this forum so that the useful threads are not buried by all the more or less beginner type threads------
AACCCHH!! Then again maybe I'd be better off getting another coffee------
I myself would love to see more threads about how certain modellers got certain things done. And if they are multi page threads that are heavilly loaded down with all manner of pix then so be it.
JohnCNJ: I, for one, would love to see more of your work---and some pointers as well---
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
I don't mind the Philosophy threads. If the topic is interesting to me, I'll read and participate. Web based forums aren't like the old days on Usenet, with primitive readers that foisted all topics on you. It's pretty easy to ignore what you're not interested in.
The point about active threads being pushed off of page 1 is a good one, but there are workarounds. I usually go through all the pages until I see a topic that's got an icon with the the "yellow" nothing-unread color. That way I know where the new stuff begins.
Other forums I frequent have a "Chit-chat", "Babble" , or "Watercooler" forum for random discussion, which can be either on or off-topic. Maybe the diners and philosophies and the like could go someplace like that?
I look at it this way, if the content of his post(s) bother you then just either stop reading it or don't reply. Maybe it's not worth commenting on. As for the poster himself I don't see where it's necessary to reply on everyone's comments. I personally thought his last post was a bit too critical of someone's layout as who knows what stage of construction the layout was in. I've visited a well known modelers layout that is very far from being finished and if I wanted to take the same approach I could have made comments on all of the not finished things or things on the layout in mock up but i came away instead with a great sense of this is how a railroad should be built.
It comes down to the old glass half full or half empty kinda thing, you can look past the obvious and see the accomplishments or unique features or pick apart the not so well done things. The one thing we all tend to forget is that these are all just opinions so there is no right or wrong answer and we need not get defensive to the point of trashing someone just because they don't agree with what we have to say.
I think a good healthy exchange of opinions is a health and constructive thing if you choose to look at it that way.
Is it Friday yet, I'd like to look at more pictures?
San Dimas Southern slideshow
Sean
HO Scale CSX Modeler
My beef with the issue this week wasn't that he was rude or denigrated another's work, but that a number of assumptions were made about what constitutes "correct" modeling. I have a problem with that, because:
1: There are different schools of thought on the subject and
2: It can be very personal.
I don't think the original post set this up very well. It presumed that we all agreed with what constituted "correct," or ideal modeling and proceeded from there.
I mean, personally, I could make a thread titled "You and your $150 RTR Loco can shove it. and discuss how the hobby is better when you have to take the solid bones of an Athearn BB and superdetail it and that being able to buy the same thing off the shelf ruins the hobby. But that is nothing more than a personal opinion stated rudely. Not a modeling fact.
It might be more interesting to philosophically compare and contrast the various styles of model railroading. Rather than assume everyone is on the same page.
As for the format of this board. I don't know, I participate in a number of Model Railroad/Rail Fan boards and I appreciate the slightly different format here.
Folks, as I have said repeatedly, we have a huge range of kinds here, and there is room for most kinds...not all, mind you, but most.
When you get a broad mix, you are bound to have some friction. This place is like a huge buffett...each of us is responsible for picking and choosing what we like and taking it away. What we don't like, we should simply leave behind, or if it leaves us affronted, we should deal with it like mature and responsible adults...seek clarification to ensure we have accurately understood the intent of what offends us, or seek redress. The rules are clear...redress can be sought privately in two ways...via outreach using email or Private Messages (it works for me very well...), or by posting a report of abuse. If it goes your way, good, but if a few tries don't make it turn in your direction, let it pass. Life's too darned short!
About the kinds of people here...some are adept with written expression, some are not. Some are generous and kindly disposed to others, some are not. Some believe that encouragement comes with some pats on the back, others do not. Some like deeper thinking and having to look into themselves to answer pointed questions, while others do not. And on it goes.
Also, some people experience jealousy and pique when one person seems to get a lot of attention and they do not. Or, they may feel excluded when a thread runs to many pages in length about arcane or difficult thoughts and they have felt unable or unwilling to contribute for whatever reason.
The point is that everyone should feel welcome and try to welcome others whose opinions they may not relish. It is a skill that some will never develop to be able to separate the ideas spoken from the person uttering them. It is natural to want to vilify the person expressing thoughts that we find objectionable or simply at odds with our experience. But we do have those differences, and they ironically enrich the hobby by allowing each of us to chose from an array of ways and means to accomplish our aims of enjoyment and fulfillment.
And don't get me started on lichen 'trees'.
-Crandell
--------------------
Remember those early premade "train set" trees that look a lot like lollipops?
Philosophy Friday has become my favorite feature in a few short weeks.
(short partly because I have been too busy with graduate school term papers to do much modeling.)
(maybe philosophizing is popular with me at the moment because (to quote myself) " I have been too busy with graduate school term papers to do much modeling.")
The "I hate this layout" was not my favorite thread, and I somehow did not get around to contributing about it, although it made me think.
I hope Philosophy Friday continues, even if it may become occasionally frying.
CNJ831That being so, posting long, detailed and heavily illustrated instructional threads, taking considerable effort to create, and having such tossed in amid a host of other posts that are basically jabber of little worth, then watching them slip into oblivion on page 10 after a day or two, holds absolutely no interest for me.
Yes, I've done the same. In one case, I thought the response was great, and the thread stuck around for a while. It became a multi-page discussion, and I was happy to answer questions and offer further suggestions. But, fame is fleeting, and eventually it went away, although it's been occasionally resurrected.
Doing these threads is a lot of work, so it would be nice if there were somewhere more permanent for them. But, we can't have everything.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Who needs any (or many) trees? None (or few) if you pick locations/scenes wisely.
Those distant junipers and pinyons could be relegated to the backdrop.
Where is that photo taken?
And so, we see the fate of a thread without a leader. We started off on one topic about the effect of Philosophy Friday, drifted off to complaints about the Diner and Beer Barn, meandered to a short discussion of "instructional" threads, and finally ended up down some branch line in the middle of nowhere, wandering aimlessly in the desert.
Professor John, I salute you for keeping your threads on course.
blownout cylinder Well---maybe the "experts" exist because they do?
Well---maybe the "experts" exist because they do?
No, thats exactly the problem with these Philosophy Friday threads. Nobody "does" anything except run at the mouth.
And the guy that starts them all is clearly no expert (not to mention any names, or course, just like he doesnt. Right.)
He does seem to enjoy his hobby of internet forums, but does not ever seem to do any modeling. Not my idea of an expert. Except at attracting forum groupies, apparently.
MisterBeasley And so, we see the fate of a thread without a leader. We started off on one topic about the effect of Philosophy Friday, drifted off to complaints about the Diner and Beer Barn, meandered to a short discussion of "instructional" threads, and finally ended up down some branch line in the middle of nowhere, wandering aimlessly in the desert.
This is "situation normal." Most human interactions, forum and conversational, are this way. No reason to get upset about it.
Trynn_Allen2 Where is that photo taken?
The photo was taken a couple weeks ago from the platform of the Grand Canyon Railway's parlor/observation car, looking north. The railway runs between Williams, Arizona to the South Rim of the Grand Canyon. Further north the scenery has thicker/larger juniper and pinyon trees and further north yet enters pine country.
MisterBeasley ... and finally ended up down some branch line in the middle of nowhere, wandering aimlessly in the desert.
... and finally ended up down some branch line in the middle of nowhere, wandering aimlessly in the desert.
Realistic trackwork is something I like on a layout. That photo of the "middle of nowhere" has lots of possible lessons.
MisterBeasley And so, we see the fate of a thread without a leader. We started off on one topic about the effect of Philosophy Friday, drifted off to complaints about the Diner and Beer Barn, meandered to a short discussion of "instructional" threads, and finally ended up down some branch line in the middle of nowhere, wandering aimlessly in the desert. Professor John, I salute you for keeping your threads on course.
Exactly what I have seen happen here in the last year or so with a lot of threads.They start off with a purpose and yet somehow they get off topic or whatever and get locked or just die. Or way too many answers to a simple question.
I quit coming here for information a long time ago. There are better model railroad sites than this. I just come here for the entertainment
N Scale Diesels......I like 'em
Well, I had to look and I am sorry. May I suggest in the future if this thread continues to develop or is replaced by any new ones, don't look. The title of the thread tells what is coming, so just skip to the next topic or the one that interests you. That is what I am doing, except to post this after reading a few comments.
Bob
JimmydieselfanExactly what I have seen happen here in the last year or so with a lot of threads.They start off with a purpose and yet somehow they get off topic or whatever and get locked or just die. Or way too many answers to a simple question. I quit coming here for information a long time ago. There are better model railroad sites than this. I just come here for the entertainment
So you have never posted a question here before, and never got back any help? Oh that's right, you're here for the entertainment.
Maybe it's us that's at you....?
Michael
CEO- Mile-HI-RailroadPrototype: D&RGW Moffat Line 1989
Jimmy is goading you fellas. Why play into his hand? As I said earlier, there is room for all kinds, including those who come here for nothing but being entertained. It's no biggie, except when you let him get a rise out of you. In fact, it makes it even juicier for him.
[I wonder if our host in this thread intends to help bring it back on point.]
JimmydieselfanI quit coming here for information a long time ago. There are better model railroad sites than this. I just come here for the entertainment
Well. Good that some of us give you entertainment then. Keeps you out of trouble!!
selector Jimmy is goading you fellas. Why play into his hand?
Jimmy is goading you fellas. Why play into his hand?
Thought my score for avoiding Jimmy's "shoals" was perfect.
Getting back to the original topic. I think the Friday Philosophy threads have been interesting and of course they provoke discussion. The latest one could have been done without referencing a specific, albeit unnamed, layout - although it did allow me to have a little fun in my post .
John, if you're reading this keep on doing them. I may not always agree with you, but I do enjoy them.
Enjoy
Paul
IRONROOSTERGetting back to the original topic. I think the Friday Philosophy threads have been interesting and of course they provoke discussion. The latest one could have been done without referencing a specific, albeit unnamed, layout - although it did allow me to have a little fun in my post .John, if you're reading this keep on doing them. I may not always agree with you, but I do enjoy them.EnjoyPaul
I think Philosophy Friday's are fine. Some weeks are better than others. I just hope John would try to make the original posts shorter. But its his posts and his call. I can wade through whatever I want to read, reply posts included. That goes for the forum itself.
This forum probably suffers from being too popular, rather than anything else, so really interesting threads could get drowned out by lesser ones. Judge for yourself what is interesting or not. Some more focused forums might only get about three hits a week. On other forums, it could be a loooong time between interesting threads.
Most originators of threads do not direct their comments directly to other members, initially, IMO. The direct exchange flame wars usually begin after someone takes offense to a post, rather than the OP trying to be offensive, IMO.
- Douglas
selectorWhen you get a broad mix, you are bound to have some friction. This place is like a huge buffett...each of us is responsible for picking and choosing what we like and taking it away. What we don't like, we should simply leave behind, or if it leaves us affronted, we should deal with it like mature and responsible adults...seek clarification to ensure we have accurately understood the intent of what offends us, or seek redress. The rules are clear...redress can be sought privately in two ways...via outreach using email or Private Messages (it works for me very well...), or by posting a report of abuse. If it goes your way, good, but if a few tries don't make it turn in your direction, let it pass. Life's too darned short!
Well said, Crandell.
I rather like the Philosophy Friday posts but so wish the poster would somehow limit the length - although I could understand the reason for this past one. It was certainly controversial as it evoked many responses some of which were far more emotional than others. I did feel that John maybe spent quite a bit of time defending his position as opposed to facilitating a discussion - and those are two completely different tasks. We can all debate how the topic was presented but what I find interesting is this thread is as a result of last Friday's so the discussion, to come extent, continues. That is one of the strengths of the Philosophy Friday threads in that it creates much thought and whether someone chooses to read, or comment or just ignor it becomes a matter of personal choice.
There's never time to do it right, but always time to do it over.....