cacole Several years ago a member of our local HO scale club pre-ordered a Con-Cor Burlington Zephyr train because it was claimed that it would be a very limited production. He waited something like six months before receiving the model, and paid over $400 for it. One week later there were five on the shelf at an Ace Hardware in Tucson priced at 1/3 what he had paid. And then Con-Cor produced a second run of the model, which destroyed any collector value the original may have had.
Several years ago a member of our local HO scale club pre-ordered a Con-Cor Burlington Zephyr train because it was claimed that it would be a very limited production. He waited something like six months before receiving the model, and paid over $400 for it.
One week later there were five on the shelf at an Ace Hardware in Tucson priced at 1/3 what he had paid.
And then Con-Cor produced a second run of the model, which destroyed any collector value the original may have had.
Ouch,
Buying anything for "collector" value is always a gamble and money (like the stock market) can be gained or lost. I've noticed over the years that various items touted to be collectors items and said to be worth far more than original purchase price often spiked at some point and then sank. My sister collected Hallmark ornaments and the very first Star Trek Enterprise sold for $20, and later was going on Ebay for $200, then it sank way way down again to not much more than MRSP. Brass trains were once considered to be highly collectable, but many have lost their value and people would be hard pressed now to get what they originally sold for 20 or 30 years ago. The California Zephyr brass made by Kumata in the 1980's is an example. I bought an 11 car train, not for collector value but to have a CZ/RGZ to operate. I sold the set for nearly half of what I paid since the BLI cars killed the value of the brass CZ. Personally, I am staying away from any collector crap - it isn't worth the risk.
Rio Grande. The Action Road - Focus 1977-1983
cacoleAnd then Con-Cor produced a second run of the model, which destroyed any collector value the original may have had.
While I am a big believer that manufacturers should have fair pricing policies that protect their dealers, I actually hope few if any model trains actually have "collector value".
Collector value implies its worth more than when it was new, or that it at least keeps pace with inflation over a long period of time.
I want modeling to be as accessible and affordable as possible. I believe that is the hobby's best hope for the future.
I don't expect any of my purchases to be "investments", other than my investment in having fun and sharing my modeling with others.
Sheldon
ATLANTIC CENTRAL cacoleAnd then Con-Cor produced a second run of the model, which destroyed any collector value the original may have had. While I am a big believer that manufacturers should have fair pricing policies that protect their dealers, I actually hope few if any model trains actually have "collector value". Collector value implies its worth more than when it was new, or that it at least keeps pace with inflation over a long period of time. I want modeling to be as accessible and affordable as possible. I believe that is the hobby's best hope for the future. I don't expect any of my purchases to be "investments", other than my investment in having fun and sharing my modeling with others. Sheldon
That's the thing about the "collector" as such. It is not just him or her that is the problem but the implied cash value that accrues around that "collection" s/he had. Once the collector who has the cashflow gets into any area---SHOOOM!! ---up goes the price. Secondary markets--that is--the market that collectors tend to fall into are rife with this up/down thing. As it is the collector car auctions are feeling the pinch already in terms of loss of sales. That market, like any other, is very fickle. If all mfg is geared to that market it'll be a rather sharp drop in sales for them.
Myself, I'd say that, yes, it can be expensive, if one buys everything all at once. But as you say, it should be accessible at some point. If one wants an industry to survive it'll have to place sustainability into the business equation.
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
riogrande5761Buying anything for "collector" value is always a gamble and money (like the stock market) can be gained or lost. I've noticed over the years that various items touted to be collectors items and said to be worth far more than original purchase price often spiked at some point and then sank. My sister collected Hallmark ornaments and the very first Star Trek Enterprise sold for $20, and later was going on Ebay for $200, then it sank way way down again to not much more than MRSP.
I think Ebay, and more generally the Internet itself, has been the principle downfall of the so-called collector's market. Ebay, for whatever else you think of it, is the great leveler of the playing field. Whereas previously you had lots of little localized pockets of value-- a "plum pudding" model, a slight parody on JJ Thompson... -- that allowed a bit of arbitrage between markets. Then ebay came along and allowed everyone to compare valuations and set up, essentially, a "commodities" type market for pretty much anything you can think up to sell. And that, over time, has homogonized the market for pretty much everything.
John
riogrande5761Buying anything for "collector" value is always a gamble and money (like the stock market) can be gained or lost. I've noticed over the years that various items touted to be collectors items and said to be worth far more than original purchase price often spiked at some point and then sank. My sister collected Hallmark ornaments and the very first Star Trek Enterprise sold for $20, and later was going on Ebay for $200, then it sank way way down again to not much more than MRSP. Brass trains were once considered to be highly collectable, but many have lost their value and people would be hard pressed now to get what they originally sold for 20 or 30 years ago. The California Zephyr brass made by Kumata in the 1980's is an example. I bought an 11 car train, not for collector value but to have a CZ/RGZ to operate. I sold the set for nearly half of what I paid since the BLI cars killed the value of the brass CZ. Personally, I am staying away from any collector crap - it isn't worth the risk.
You have a valid and good point about collecting brass trains. The market price of the brass previously imported Zephyr cars was hurt when the BLI cars showed up. Many of the brass only items up to about the year 2000 has lost value since plastic and die cast metal models are now available for many items. Only a few buyers are wanting those older items at this time, which softens the price. It is best to retain those items if you have the extra money and sell them off later when someone is looking for that particular item or set of cars in your case.
The brass market today is still extremely expensive for the new and latest models from DVP, PSC and Overland. The small runs of the new brass has priced it out of the reach of many buyers.
CZ
CAZEPHYRThe brass market today is still extremely expensive for the new and latest models from DVP, PSC and Overland. The small runs of the new brass has priced it out of the reach of many buyers.
Another point to note here is "can afford" vs "willing to afford". I can afford a Benz, I choose to drive a Ford.
Brass has never attracted my interest. I have a fairly large yearly hobby budget, I choose not to spend large percentages of it on cars with three digit prices or locos with four digit prices. No matter what it's a model of, or how well it's done, they are just not worth that to me.
So now that nice looking and nice running locos can be bought for $300 and less, I have lots of them. In the past I still only spent $200 or $300 but had to build/super detail each loco, which took time and limited the size of the fleet.
So brass prices did not decline because of me, and I know more than a few modelers who feel the same way. And, I do know some with fair amounts of brass, but they bought it to run, not "invest" in.
In 40 years of building model trains, I have one brass loco and one "semi brass" loco, and both long since lost any collector value with kit bashing, plastic tenders, freelanced paint schemes, etc.
I've been told by my LHS owners that brass is purchased simply to collect and display, never to run. I find that statement hard to believe. There are a few brass passenger cars that I want, but a single observation car (released by Imperial Imports) costs about $500, I can't afford that, ever. I have seen this particular car on a layout in pictures, so I can't imagine somebody buying something of that price simply to put it on display. If this is the sole purpose of buying a brass passenger car, why not just get a nice painting to hang it up on the wall? Or why not develope some art skills and draw it yourself? (Im considering doing this myself).
rjake4454a single observation car (released by Imperial Imports) costs about $500, I can't afford that, ever. I have seen this particular car on a layout in pictures, so I can't imagine somebody buying something of that price simply to put it on display.
Sadly, its true. There are lots of people in lots of realms that drop big money on the silliest things just so they can add it to their collection.
ATLANTIC CENTRALIn 40 years of building model trains, I have one brass loco and one "semi brass" loco, and both long since lost any collector value with kit bashing, plastic tenders, freelanced paint schemes, etc.
I fell over a fellow at a trainshow recently who is a local folk art dealer/collector. He told me of a great "find" he came across---turns out he found a series of small HO(?) deisels that had been superdetailed by someone around these parts----he sold them to a Toronto 'art' collector for a chunk of $$$$.
Some people will collect anything