TA462 A aluminum tool to make an automotive seat cushion costs around 10 grand. That tool will produce over 800 THOUSAND pieces in it's roughly 4 year life span. Aluminum is the material of choice when making tools. Tool and die makers are obsolete now, everything is cut useing a 3 axis machine that is programmed. The actual making of the tool is the easy part. Ask me how I know. NEWS FLASH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! True Line Trains has drastically reduced the prices of these locomotives. I just recently (Wednesday) picked up two more and I'm thinking about maybe another one. Look around, they are going for $425 or less at a few select hobby shops. That is right in line with what a plastic loco should be.
A aluminum tool to make an automotive seat cushion costs around 10 grand. That tool will produce over 800 THOUSAND pieces in it's roughly 4 year life span. Aluminum is the material of choice when making tools. Tool and die makers are obsolete now, everything is cut useing a 3 axis machine that is programmed. The actual making of the tool is the easy part. Ask me how I know.
NEWS FLASH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! True Line Trains has drastically reduced the prices of these locomotives. I just recently (Wednesday) picked up two more and I'm thinking about maybe another one. Look around, they are going for $425 or less at a few select hobby shops. That is right in line with what a plastic loco should be.
The cost and lifespan of a tool depends on the materials and the degree of precision you want. A simple tool will last a long time and be cheap to make.
A complex tool used to cast a precision item, such as a well detailed steam locomotive boiler, will cost a lot more. How long it has to last, well, that depends on how much wear you will tolerate, and how much you are willing to pay for the material it is made of.
These items, and those such as Rapido's products, are not the same as plastic caps for Coke bottles.
rogertra I keep reading figures like $500,000 on all model railroad news groups for new tooling and dies. What's this figure based upon, if anything, or is it just the figure that everybody quotes "because I read somewhere that it costs $500,000....."? Show me, other than a quote on another model railroad group, how people arrive at this figure, or is it just a model railroader myth? Not that i don't believe it, I just want proof from a non model railroad group or vested interest group, like a manufacturer's site, on how this figure is arrived at.
I keep reading figures like $500,000 on all model railroad news groups for new tooling and dies.
What's this figure based upon, if anything, or is it just the figure that everybody quotes "because I read somewhere that it costs $500,000....."?
Show me, other than a quote on another model railroad group, how people arrive at this figure, or is it just a model railroader myth? Not that i don't believe it, I just want proof from a non model railroad group or vested interest group, like a manufacturer's site, on how this figure is arrived at.
That would be a reasonable figure, for precision, high accuracy tools made in North America. The production supervisor at one plant I was in mentioned the tools in the injection moulding machines was $100,000, thirty years ago, and it cast the shells for floppy disks.
You pay by the hour to make these things, plus the cost of the material. It all takes time, and the more complex it is, the more time required.
{Chose to delete my reply to this, but apparently that is no longer possible}
-Fritz Milhaupt, Publications Editor, Pere Marquette Historical Society, Inc.http://www.pmhistsoc.org
betamax rogertra: I keep reading figures like $500,000 on all model railroad news groups for new tooling and dies. What's this figure based upon, if anything, or is it just the figure that everybody quotes "because I read somewhere that it costs $500,000....."? Show me, other than a quote on another model railroad group, how people arrive at this figure, or is it just a model railroader myth? Not that i don't believe it, I just want proof from a non model railroad group or vested interest group, like a manufacturer's site, on how this figure is arrived at. That would be a reasonable figure, for precision, high accuracy tools made in North America. The production supervisor at one plant I was in mentioned the tools in the injection moulding machines was $100,000, thirty years ago, and it cast the shells for floppy disks. You pay by the hour to make these things, plus the cost of the material. It all takes time, and the more complex it is, the more time required.
rogertra: I keep reading figures like $500,000 on all model railroad news groups for new tooling and dies. What's this figure based upon, if anything, or is it just the figure that everybody quotes "because I read somewhere that it costs $500,000....."? Show me, other than a quote on another model railroad group, how people arrive at this figure, or is it just a model railroader myth? Not that i don't believe it, I just want proof from a non model railroad group or vested interest group, like a manufacturer's site, on how this figure is arrived at.
In this case there are two very different influences that have occurred over thirty years. We all know what inflation has done, especially when it comes to labor rates of highly skilled craftsmen. But technology has even greater strides and you may well find that a lot of that expensive labour has been replaced by a digital CAD file controlling an expensive machine that cuts the tools.
I don't think we are any closer to an answer. The machinery itself needs to be amortized but quite possibly the material cost for cutting any specific tool has become fairly nominal. There will be labour costs for creating and tweaking the CAD file but it is easier and faster to make a few adjustments with a computer keyboard than correcting a physical tool.
How much do new tooling and dies cost; frankly I have no idea. But on the whole my guess is that the cost has dropped, possibly very significantly.
John
A diesel locomotive does not cost $500K to tool. Tooling is very expensive, but not that expensive. I can see a steam engine costing over $300K to tool, but it would have to be extremely complex to reach half a million.
One of our passenger cars can easily cost $100K to tool, so tooling is not cheap. This is why we manufacturers often have to paint models in non-prototypical paint schemes. Very few paint schemes today will warrant enough sales to cover those tooling costs. Or we produce lesser-detailed models that don't cost as much to make.
When working in China we can't use aluminum tools, which would be a lot cheaper to make. Aluminum tools are not great for fine detail - the really fine stuff wears off more quickly than it does on steel and the tools are too easily damaged.
It can be done, but to me the risks are too high. Who wants to spend $5K and two weeks on one finely-detail truck mould just to have an injection worker pry a stuck part out with a steel screwdriver? You can imagine what that would do to an aluminum mould.
The costs of tooling have not dropped at all. For most manufacturers, they have actually increased by over 100% in the last decade.
-Jason
Jason Shron - President - Rapido Trains Inc. - RapidoTrains.comMy HO scale Kingston Sub layout: Facebook.com/KingstonSub
Jason, I can't tell you how much of a pleasure it is to see someone in the business pipe up and share his personal knowledge of the industry. If nothing else, it helps all of us to start discussions from a more informed and standardized platform. Thank-you for feeling comfortable enough about your own part in the hobby and what you think your customers should know of it. I feel it brings us all together...quite a bit more, actually. And it helps to demystify the production of items whose prices keep rising.
Crandell
selector Jason, I can't tell you how much of a pleasure it is to see someone in the business pipe up and share his personal knowledge of the industry. If nothing else, it helps all of us to start discussions from a more informed and standardized platform. Thank-you for feeling comfortable enough about your own part in the hobby and what you think your customers should know of it. I feel it brings us all together...quite a bit more, actually. And it helps to demystify the production of items whose prices keep rising. Crandell
Crandell,
The pleasure is all mine. I believe that if the model railroad community knows the facts, they will see that a lot of the choices made by the manufacturers - which may seem counter-intuitive on the surface - have solid reasoning behind them. As modellers we often forget that there is an economic side to the industry and decisions need to be made due to financial circumstances which may not always be ideal.
Best regards,
Jason
I'd also like to thank Jason for his input.
Information from the horse's mouth, so to speak.
Cheers
Roger T.
Home of the late Great Eastern Railway see: - http://www.greateasternrailway.com
For more photos of the late GER see: - http://s94.photobucket.com/albums/l99/rogertra/Great_Eastern/
Rapido A diesel locomotive does not cost $500K to tool. Tooling is very expensive, but not that expensive. I can see a steam engine costing over $300K to tool, but it would have to be extremely complex to reach half a million. One of our passenger cars can easily cost $100K to tool, so tooling is not cheap. This is why we manufacturers often have to paint models in non-prototypical paint schemes. Very few paint schemes today will warrant enough sales to cover those tooling costs. Or we produce lesser-detailed models that don't cost as much to make. When working in China we can't use aluminum tools, which would be a lot cheaper to make. Aluminum tools are not great for fine detail - the really fine stuff wears off more quickly than it does on steel and the tools are too easily damaged. It can be done, but to me the risks are too high. Who wants to spend $5K and two weeks on one finely-detail truck mould just to have an injection worker pry a stuck part out with a steel screwdriver? You can imagine what that would do to an aluminum mould. The costs of tooling have not dropped at all. For most manufacturers, they have actually increased by over 100% in the last decade. -Jason
Thanks for your explanation. At least you clarified that the costs to cut tools varies, depending on whether you are making plastic cutlery for the dollar store, or a precision piece like a videocassette shell that has tolerances to meet, or even a detailed, precise casting of a CPR passenger car for The Canadian.
(Maybe you can go on tour with your tools?)
As of being someone in the business of machining at one time, I don't believe any of you have any idea as to what plastic injectin molds cost to machine. Firstly all the drawings are rendered from pictures and done with cad software. Alot more cost effective now than it was 30-35 yrs ago. Secondly machining of the injection molding dies is all done on a cnc machine. And thirdly ,it is all being done in China, where labour is cheap.
$75,00-$100,00 production costs??
Even that seems way too high.
As for TLT Northern, there were so many flaws in it, people were returning them.
After TLT recalled and refurbished them, alot of people still said NO to the price. And they steadily dropped the price to sell them.
TLT U2 484 northern, I have seen it being sold on thier own website for around the $400.00 mark.
Now, do you honestly think that they were selling them below thier cost??
The cost of making these engines is cheap, the quality is cheap, but the retail price is waaaayyy out of line.
yours truly,
Wow......four years later and still a comment! I had mentioned that a really fine repair person was going to make this model run well....Jan Willard! Well it stumped him. His comment was the mechanism was most likely from a very cheap run of the mill Bachmann 4-8-4 worth about $35 if that..... and that it was impossible to make gold from dross (crap). The box however is a fine piece of furniture not at all in keeping with this really lousy and incredibly over-priced choo choo.
Sorry to be negative, but I'm annoyed that I shelled out over $500 for what I thought was going to be a fine model and at half price to boot!
HZ
I am amazed that you are dwelling on the True Line fiasco for so long and also that you are so bitter.
I for one have one of these, bought at the bargain bin price and am quite happy with it. Quality wise I see very little difference between the True Line steam locomotive and any of my BLI or Spectrum steamers.
I bought the engine because there are so few Canadian models in the HO world.
The majority of my HO steam locomotive roster are PFM/Van Hobbies models ranging from the 1960's to the late 1980's.
Those of the HO model railroadesr wanting models based on real Canadain locomotives did not have much choice, and I would not value the mechanisms of those locomotives much more that that of a BLI or Spectrum.
I think it is time to let go and get on with life.
I would hate to think of the rants you would have if you ever bought a car that turned out to be a lemon.