Anyone have any comments or experience with the well advertised CN U2g 4-8-4 by True Line Trains with a suggested retail price of $1199?
HZ
Howard ZaneAnyone have any comments or experience with the well advertised CN U2g 4-8-4 by True Line Trains with a suggested retail price of $1199? HZ
Nope! You could buy my entire roster and all of my rolling stock for about 1/2 that much!
-George
"And the sons of Pullman porters and the sons of engineers ride their father's magic carpet made of steel..."
I had a look at one at the LHS for $1040 CDN I was considering one via Ebay but decided I didn't want play/pay at that level. Very nice detail,can't say anything about the running quality or sound as the shop was reluctant to unpack one for a test run. They apparently sold one on the first day they put 3 of them in the display case.
Best regards
Andrew
Hello David B,
Yes I know it's plastic and I wonder if it will keep it's value as well as brass plus what kind of luck are you going to have getting parts for it if you actually run it. I decided to wait and see if I come across a brass locomotive with a slightly more reasonable price (reasonable being a relative term when discussing brass).
If you actually do buy this engine, let me know...I'll sell you a bridge to go with it.
Dave
Just be glad you don't have to press "2" for English.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ_ALEdDUB8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hqFS1GZL4s
http://s73.photobucket.com/user/steemtrayn/media/MovingcoalontheDCM.mp4.html?sort=3&o=27
davidmbedard Guys...these locos are plastic. Would you spend 1200 bucks for plastic? Personally, I would expect brass for that price. David B
Guys...these locos are plastic. Would you spend 1200 bucks for plastic? Personally, I would expect brass for that price.
David B
For that price I'd also expect a band to go along with the brass.
Berk-fan284 Hello David B, Yes I know it's plastic and I wonder if it will keep it's value as well as brass plus what kind of luck are you going to have getting parts for it if you actually run it. I decided to wait and see if I come across a brass locomotive with a slightly more reasonable price (reasonable being a relative term when discussing brass). Andrew
Keep its value like brass? What value? While brass may not devaluate as fast as "plastic" and "other" types of model trains, I see no sign the brass even keeps up with inflation over the long term.
Model trains are like used cars, once its off the lot, its value is gone. I would strongly caution anyone not to think their model train "collection" is an investment.
As for the piece in question, even if I modeled that railroad, it is way past my cost/need/want ratio to ever show up on my layout, but than again so is most brass.
When I get done modifying and painting them for my railroad, adding some light weathering, running them, brass or not, I doubt too many people would want them - that's OK, their not an investment, they are MY toys.
Sheldon
After the initial batch of the loco was released, there were a lot of gripes on the Canmodeltrains Yahoo Groupe. One of the firm's owners replied to some of their gripes, which to many did seem to be minor. But if you're paying over $1K for a model it should be right, as many expressed. The firm even went over the remaining models on hand and did some adjustments before releasing them. The owner also said he was heading off to their factory in China to personally see that the remaining models are tested and made right before shipping any more.
This was Trueline Trains first steam engine, and it may have been a bit too much to assume they would get everything perfect the first time. They offered to replace the tenders to buyers for some minor problem. Some buyers were supportive, but the owner reported some messages he received were downright hostile. And this is supposed to be a hobby!
I imagine things will sort themselves out eventually. Whether the problems and gripes with this loco will prevent them from offering more in the future is anyone's guess. Doesn't mean anythng to me, as I have no interest nor would I spend that kind of money on a model.
Bob Boudreau
CANADA
Visit my model railroad photography website: http://sites.google.com/site/railphotog/
Howard Zane Anyone have any comments or experience with the well advertised CN U2g 4-8-4 by True Line Trains with a suggested retail price of $1199? HZ
I have a comment about the model but will not be getting it. If it had been in the $600 range, I would be interested in it. Compare it in price to the recent release of the Sunset Z6, which I did purchase, and the True Line CN model is just overpriced. I realize the Z6 is a much bigger model and is brass, but it has value compared to the general brass market. When you compare the U2g, it is double to triple the price of any plastic 4-8-4 available that I know of. There might be exceptions, but the bottom line is why would I spend to much for this model that is also available in used brass.
CZ
Folks,
I started this thread because I had acquired one these U2g's on eBay for about 1/2 price. Knowing the MSRP, I assumed that it was at least die cast or similar to the BLI CN Hudson which was mostly brass and with DCC electronics. Immediately upon opening the beautiful presentation box and saw #31 of 1000, I knew that if this model was plastic and indeed it certainly looked plastic...there was a serious mistake with the importer/producer's thinking. Brass models are hand formed and can be produced in small runs. A plastic model of this magnitude requires production molds and tooling which can cost upwards of $75,000 to $100,000.
A run of 1000 can no way be profitable as it would have to be retailed in the above $1000 category just to break even. Very few are willing to shell out that much for a plastic model when firms like BLI, Life Like, Bachmann and others are doing similar work for one quarter of the price....but in much larger runs! Value?? I believe that anything of truly good quality will hold value. This model is magnificent in appearance. I have had both Toby and Samhongsa brass U2gs. and in all fairness if it is detail that is important, this model reigns superior. Runability....OK, but in the same class as a Rivarossi model. Smoke units can not be discussed in the same sentence with MTH. I plan on keeping it and with the help of Jan Willard*, easily bring it up to great performing standards.
As far as True Line Trains, like any other model railroad manufacturer, I take off my hat and simply say...Thanks!
*Jan Willard lives in Mt Airy, MD and is in my opinion the best all around model railroad repair person I have met in my 6 decades of playing with trains. I'm lucky to be only 30 miles from Willard.
Howard Zane I believe that anything of truly good quality will hold value. This model is magnificent in appearance. I have had both Toby and Samhongsa brass U2gs. and in all fairness if it is detail that is important, this model reigns superior. Runability....OK, but in the same class as a Rivarossi model. Smoke units can not be discussed in the same sentence with MTH. I plan on keeping it and with the help of Jan Willard*, easily bring it up to great performing standards. As far as True Line Trains, like any other model railroad manufacturer, I take off my hat and simply say...Thanks!
I believe that anything of truly good quality will hold value. This model is magnificent in appearance. I have had both Toby and Samhongsa brass U2gs. and in all fairness if it is detail that is important, this model reigns superior. Runability....OK, but in the same class as a Rivarossi model. Smoke units can not be discussed in the same sentence with MTH. I plan on keeping it and with the help of Jan Willard*, easily bring it up to great performing standards.
Howard
Interesting that it does have such good detail and holds it own to the older brass. The pictures that I have seen do show good detail and I am happy to know that some are being discounted big time. The running qualities do not seem so great, but they are probably using an unknown builder in China.
Show us some pictures of the U2g model if you have time.
Thanks
My LHS ordered several of these locos but were very disappointed in them when they arrived. I did not see them, but the owner reported very poor assembly, with parts loose or crooked, or missing entirely. On some details, the glue holding them in place was visible. On top of all that, the mechanism is reportedly from Bachmann. They returned the entire order, as they felt them to be un-saleable. His margin was supposedly very narrow, as he felt the original MSRP to be too high, making it unlikely that anyone would buy them at the suggested price, and they had been brought in mainly as a courtesy to their large customer base, many of whom were interested.
A good friend has one of these locos pre-ordered, due, I think, at the end of this month. I'll judge then for myself as to the quality - there is very little that cannot be repaired, although at the $899.00 price, it shouldn't be required.
If you want this particular locomotive and have the money to afford it, the "value" comes into play only if the product is below the standards promised. In the example cited, this was the case. For my friend, if his is as nice as originally promised, he'll be happy. If it's less than promised, but I can bring it up to his expectations, he'll still be happy, although perhaps not so eager next time.
I expected some teething problems with this loco (it was a grand undertaking for their first effort), but I hope that they can make it right, as the promise of future offerings of "locomotives unlikely to be otherwise offered by anybody" hinges on the success of this one. It will be unfortunate if TLT loses their shirts on this.
Wayne
I have some swamp land you could use the bridge on!
Why would a plastic engine cost that much and why has MTH not sued them yet?
I hate Rust
cudaken Why would a plastic engine cost that much and why has MTH not sued them yet?
Ken
I hope you are being a little rhetorical here. The tooling costs for this locomotive are more than 6 figures, probably closer to 1/2 million. Since the market for the model is extremely limited, the importer chose to have 1,000 made - quite a risk IMHO. So the tooling costs alone are somewhere in the area of $100 to $500 per model, more likely towards the higher end of the range.
If you don't make models that will sell large runs in plastic, the tooling costs per unit is very high. Blackstone is dealing with the HOn3 market, where you can't sell large runs of plastic, either. The story I heard is that the original run of K-27s was 1500 pieces. They did well enough to re-run, but inflation has been rampant in China, too. The next run is going to cost more, not less - as is the C-19 coming out in less than a year. The plastic RTR cars that started out at less than $40 are now up to $50+. FWIW, Blackstone also uses Kader (Bachmann's Chinese manufacturer and owner) to make their locomotives.
I think that when the current contracts for Chinese model locomotive production run out, you are going to see some serious price increases across the board. I'm afraid Chinese die-cast/plastic is doomed to the same price and production size spiral that Japanese and Korean brass went through. And the present abundance of new tooling will decrease significantly. You won't be seeing more than one or two new locomotives/year/importer, and some of those importers will drop back to just re-running existing models with a few token changes, or drop out altogether - just like the 1980s when brass prices went through the roof.
I was initially surprised at the decision of plastic over brass, but perhaps Blackstone's unpredicted success in HOn3 spurred True Line. Blackstone came in with a plastic K-27 at close to the price of used brass version, but they succeeded because they had the 1st HOn3 locomotive that would run on a layout right out of the box (most of the time), and the detail was comparable to a lot of brass. I'm thinking True Line is using the same business model.
my thoughts, your choices
Fred W
I purchased my model about 3 months ago. I don't have a model layout any more; however I must say that this model is by far the most detailed locomotive I have ever seen.
Sure...it is largely plastic with a metal core but this plastic is very strong and when handled properly, it is very durable.
When you consider the electronic special effects and a hi low beam headlight, sound obtained from a cnr northern and smoke effects to name but a few of it's features...and I think a fair price...it is a very good buy.
Lastly but not least; I have found TLT support to be tops.
There are very few of these engines available. this is not a plug for TLT...just an observation.
saabguy
Wow! This thread is almost 18 months old! Still my major point is that I will always take off my hat and say "Thanks" to any model railroad manufacturer. This was TLT'S first attempt with a steam model. I'm for giving them a chance. I don't think the molds cost upwards of $500,000. $75-$100,000 would seem more resonable. No business man would spend a half a million for $100,000 of product unless he is into politics.
Howard Zane Wow! This thread is almost 18 months old! Still my major point is that I will always take off my hat and say "Thanks" to any model railroad manufacturer. This was TLT'S first attempt with a steam model. I'm for giving them a chance. I don't think the molds cost upwards of $500,000. $75-$100,000 would seem more resonable. No business man would spend a half a million for $100,000 of product unless he is into politics. HZ
As you probably know, Sunset is bringing in a brass Selkirk with sound for about the same price as the CN 4-8-4 and I agree, the tooling could not have cost $500,000 for the True Line CN 4-8-4. It looks nice but seems too high in price to be purchased by most model railroader I know. I will be getting the Selkirk for about the same price as the Sunset NP Z6 was a year or so ago. Both seem like bargains compared to the CN 4-8-4, but if someone wants the CN model, they must pay the price.
It seems to me that lately that the O scale brass Sunset models are very reasonable in price compared to their HO models. Could it be that they sell a lot more O scale models?? I also realize they are not super detailed but do look nice in general.
And to add to the thought process, how can BLI continue to import Brass/ Hybrid models at half the price?
In China you can cut tools cheaply. The cost depends on several factors, one of which is the material it is made from. If you only want a 1000 units, you can make a tool for that purpose quite cheaply.
Cheap labour and materials make a big difference.
How can Rapido tool an entire passenger train, with locomotives, and sell it for $1500 each in a limited run, if the tools cost $500k each?
Athearn stopped selling kits because the tooling to make them cost a lot more than simple tools needed to make tens of the same part that they will assemble before shipping.
betamax In China you can cut tools cheaply. The cost depends on several factors, one of which is the material it is made from. If you only want a 1000 units, you can make a tool for that purpose quite cheaply. Cheap labour and materials make a big difference. How can Rapido tool an entire passenger train, with locomotives, and sell it for $1500 each in a limited run, if the tools cost $500k each? Athearn stopped selling kits because the tooling to make them cost a lot more than simple tools needed to make tens of the same part that they will assemble before shipping.
I'm no expert on this, but I thought the Kit and RTRs were the same pieces, just that one is and one isn't assembled?
-Morgan
Flashwave betamax: In China you can cut tools cheaply. The cost depends on several factors, one of which is the material it is made from. If you only want a 1000 units, you can make a tool for that purpose quite cheaply. Cheap labour and materials make a big difference. How can Rapido tool an entire passenger train, with locomotives, and sell it for $1500 each in a limited run, if the tools cost $500k each? Athearn stopped selling kits because the tooling to make them cost a lot more than simple tools needed to make tens of the same part that they will assemble before shipping. I'm no expert on this, but I thought the Kit and RTRs were the same pieces, just that one is and one isn't assembled?
betamax: In China you can cut tools cheaply. The cost depends on several factors, one of which is the material it is made from. If you only want a 1000 units, you can make a tool for that purpose quite cheaply. Cheap labour and materials make a big difference. How can Rapido tool an entire passenger train, with locomotives, and sell it for $1500 each in a limited run, if the tools cost $500k each? Athearn stopped selling kits because the tooling to make them cost a lot more than simple tools needed to make tens of the same part that they will assemble before shipping.
Flashwave, you are correct, most of the Athearn products are exactly the same as they were when offered in kit form. Some have been upgraded slightly, but most parts remain the same, made with the same tooling.
Athearn I suspect is still investing in high quality steel tooling that will last for hundreds of thousands of pieces. Actually, before kit production stopped, in the transition to China production of RTR, most of the injection molding was still done here and parts sent to China for painting and assembly.
Some others in this business are still doing this - just think about several smaller brands that offer kits and RTR - their tooling and injection work is done here still.
Someone mentioned elsewhere that making the sprue with all the little pieces costs more than just making a tool the molds, for example 100 coupler boxes each shot. Simpler tool, less cost. Since all the pieces are alike, planning the flow of plastic, etc, is simplified in the process too.
They can get tools made the makes hundreds of identical pieces every cycle, which saves them money. Since some of those parts are common to every project, they can save a lot of money in the process. Like wheel sets, coupler boxes, brake wheels... Not to mention setup and teardown costs associated with the tooling during production.
With the money saved they can invest in better tools, which means we get a better end product.
betamax Someone mentioned elsewhere that making the sprue with all the little pieces costs more than just making a tool the molds, for example 100 coupler boxes each shot. Simpler tool, less cost. Since all the pieces are alike, planning the flow of plastic, etc, is simplified in the process too. They can get tools made the makes hundreds of identical pieces every cycle, which saves them money. Since some of those parts are common to every project, they can save a lot of money in the process. Like wheel sets, coupler boxes, brake wheels... Not to mention setup and teardown costs associated with the tooling during production. With the money saved they can invest in better tools, which means we get a better end product.
There is some truth to that, and yes some "economy of scale", but that gain would not justify Athearn making new tools for products they already have high quality tooling for. It would only apply to the choices when making new tooling.
As some one who has worked in this business, been around model trains since the 60's, and who as purchased a great number of Athearn products both then and now, I can assure that the changes in the product are very small, so I doubt there has been much if any retooling just because of the China production.
Sheldon.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL Flashwave: betamax: In China you can cut tools cheaply. The cost depends on several factors, one of which is the material it is made from. If you only want a 1000 units, you can make a tool for that purpose quite cheaply. Cheap labour and materials make a big difference. How can Rapido tool an entire passenger train, with locomotives, and sell it for $1500 each in a limited run, if the tools cost $500k each? Athearn stopped selling kits because the tooling to make them cost a lot more than simple tools needed to make tens of the same part that they will assemble before shipping. I'm no expert on this, but I thought the Kit and RTRs were the same pieces, just that one is and one isn't assembled? Flashwave, you are correct, most of the Athearn products are exactly the same as they were when offered in kit form. Some have been upgraded slightly, but most parts remain the same, made with the same tooling. Athearn I suspect is still investing in high quality steel tooling that will last for hundreds of thousands of pieces. Actually, before kit production stopped, in the transition to China production of RTR, most of the injection molding was still done here and parts sent to China for painting and assembly. Some others in this business are still doing this - just think about several smaller brands that offer kits and RTR - their tooling and injection work is done here still. Sheldon
Flashwave: betamax: In China you can cut tools cheaply. The cost depends on several factors, one of which is the material it is made from. If you only want a 1000 units, you can make a tool for that purpose quite cheaply. Cheap labour and materials make a big difference. How can Rapido tool an entire passenger train, with locomotives, and sell it for $1500 each in a limited run, if the tools cost $500k each? Athearn stopped selling kits because the tooling to make them cost a lot more than simple tools needed to make tens of the same part that they will assemble before shipping. I'm no expert on this, but I thought the Kit and RTRs were the same pieces, just that one is and one isn't assembled?
Then what's the difference? if it's the same piece getting assembled or not?
Where does this $500K tooling cost come from?
Has anyone any hard evidence or proof that this is really the cost or is it another of those myths created because at some point, someone, somewhere. read that the tooling costs for something was $500K and now become a model railroad "fact" only because it's constantly repeated on boards like this.
Of course, no manufacturer will say otherwise as for them, it's convenient myth, if in fact it is a myth, as they can then justify their prices.
As for the True-Line 4-8-4, it costs what it costs because it's a Canadian model, of a Canadian locomotive, made by a Canadian company and that alone can justify a sky high price because, "Canadians are accustomed to paying higher prices than Americans."
It's just the way it is. Don't believe me?
Check out American ads for "Sleep Country" Vs the same "Sleep Country Canada" products in Canada.
Check out hobby store prices Vs the same items in Canada.
etc, etc..
Cheers
Roger T.
Home of the late Great Eastern Railway see: - http://www.greateasternrailway.com
For more photos of the late GER see: - http://s94.photobucket.com/albums/l99/rogertra/Great_Eastern/
Once upon a time, cutting tools was very expensive. Hundreds of thousands of dollars. You needed a very skilled tool and die maker, particularly for more complex stuff. Harder materials mean more time is needed.
Things have gotten more expensive as the tool and die maker is becoming harder to find here in North America. But they are still around.
Five hundred thousand is a reasonable cost for a tool. Depending on the metal it is made of and the complexity. For something like the True Line limited run locomotive, they could cut a tool in aluminum that would have a life of about 1000 cycles, or less, depending on your tolerances. They could get those cut in China for a lot less than those made here. They might be able to get all the tools cut for $25,000 in China, which is a significant saving. Once they are done, they can sell the tools for their scrap value.
Where Athearn can save money is by cutting simple tools that only make something like coupler boxes, instead of complex tools that made the big black sprue with all the parts you would see in the box. It is a lot cheaper that way, and they can make common parts in large quantity that way, and use them as they need them. They also save in setup fees, as they don't have to carefully remove one tool to install another for a limited run of parts.
betamax Once upon a time, cutting tools was very expensive. Hundreds of thousands of dollars. You needed a very skilled tool and die maker, particularly for more complex stuff. Harder materials mean more time is needed. Things have gotten more expensive as the tool and die maker is becoming harder to find here in North America. But they are still around. Five hundred thousand is a reasonable cost for a tool. Depending on the metal it is made of and the complexity. For something like the True Line limited run locomotive, they could cut a tool in aluminum that would have a life of about 1000 cycles, or less, depending on your tolerances. They could get those cut in China for a lot less than those made here. They might be able to get all the tools cut for $25,000 in China, which is a significant saving. Once they are done, they can sell the tools for their scrap value. Where Athearn can save money is by cutting simple tools that only make something like coupler boxes, instead of complex tools that made the big black sprue with all the parts you would see in the box. It is a lot cheaper that way, and they can make common parts in large quantity that way, and use them as they need them. They also save in setup fees, as they don't have to carefully remove one tool to install another for a limited run of parts.
Nobody is disputing any of that, but the design and construction of a great many Athearn products is exactly the same now as it was when they were made here. The parts are IDENTICAL. I know because I have disassembled a number of Ready to Roll cars in my kitbashing and compared them to their US made blue box counter parts. So if Athean already had high quality steel tooling, it is unlikely they have paid for new tooling.
You may not be familiar with the Athearn line, but I have been in this hobby for 40 years and worked in several hobby shops. I am very familiar with a large precentage of the Athearn product line. Only the small parts sometimes came attached to a sprue. Athearns large parts always appeared to come from a single item tool. Many of the kits had some or all of even the small parts in a paper envelope, not on a sprue.
Since a fair number of their parts interchange betwwen products, seperate tools would make sense anyway. Example - they make wood side and steel side reefers. EVERY part is the same except the sidewall/floor casting - been making them that way since the early 60's.
They sell seven different heavy weight passenger cars, that share only three different floors and all use the same trucks, lighting kit and some of the same window inserts.
So they may have been ahead of their time in injection molding planning and use. I doubt they ever had "complete set" tooling for each product. Their coupler boxes are molded into the frames, the covers are metal, freight trucks are all the same mounting, etc.
Now in recent time they have retired a few products in favor of newer tooling they got when MDC was aquired, but the same was true over at MDC, lots of common parts to all kits.
Fact still remains, the final product sold by Athearn today as RTR is in many cases the exact same product they sold in blue box kits for decades.
Kit vs RTR witht he same tooling: for an extra couple of extra bucjs labor cost to assemble the model , you can sell it as RTR for $30 instead of as a kit for $8. Even where labor isn't as cheap as in CHina, it still has a much larger profit margin than the hardware. Which is wmy my company doesn;t care too much if you buy your equipment from us, as long as we do the installation.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Sheldon,Not all Athearn RTR's are the exact same tooling as the previous Blue Box & Roundhouse kits were.
For example, the old line of cars almost always needed a Kadee red washer on the truck bolster to bring the coupler up to the correct height. New tooled underframes under Athearn RTR's have a slightly taller bolster plate, eliminating the need for the Kadee red washer.
Not impressed? Okay, how about the 85' TOFC's that Athearn RTR has made. They have a totally different coupler installation and have additional weights added (both were major flaws with the old BB kits...so much so that A-Line had replacement weights with new coupler pockets cast in place). Also, the 5th wheels are completely different as well.
The 85' TOFC too unusual? Then what about the universal 40' PS-1 boxcar? The new Athearn RTR version is not the old BB tooling at all. Now, the original Athearn RTR 40' PS-1 boxcars were, indeed, merely assembled versions of their old BB kits. However, right around the time that Horizon aquired Roundhouse, the 40' PS-1's from Athearn appear to be from completely new or updated tooling.
I havean Athearn RTR 40' PS-1 boxcar for the PRR "Merchandise Service" #30998. It's on the Athearn website as being announced in December, 2002. It is the Athearn BB tooling, complete with metal coupler covers, under-the-floor weight (painted black), big "door claws" for the operating doors, and all the other normal Athearn BB features and flaws (but it does have the thicker floor bolster).
I also have Athearn RTR 40' PS-1 boxcar for the NH (in McGinnis all-orange) #32198. It's on the Athearn website as being announced in June, 2005. The differences between it and the old Athearn BB are clear. The underframe is completely different. The metal weight is inside the car, and the underframe is all one piece. The coupler covers are plastic and screw into the floor. Even the trucks are different, with the newly tooled ones being much crisper with more detail on the springs and journal covers. The carbody is also of a different tool. The doors do not operate, and therefore do not have the "door claws" or the oversize door runners. The two grabs on the left side of the car are of the "H" pattern and not of the old drop step style as on the BB's. The body rivets are much finer and there's more of them all over the carbody. The brakewheel is different and smaller, and the stirrup steps are much finer looking and have a different shape.
Now it appears that the new Athearn RTR 40' PS-1 boxcar is merely the old Roundhouse tooling. However, it has been upgraded significantly. I also have an MDC/Roundhouse 40' PS-1 boxcar kit from the end of the company before Horizon bought them out. It's a NH boxcar red "script logo" 40' PS-1 #30593, production date unknown. The floor is plastic and not metal as was normal for most MDC items wayback in the day, and MDC was movoing away from cast metal underframes there at the end.
The comparison of the MDC to the later Athearn RTR 40' PS-1 boxcar shows that the underframe, while simular, is different. The floor joists are of different shape and size, and the air tank, triple valve, and air cylinder are all in different places (heck, on the MDC tooling, they are cast into the floor; on the Athearn RTR, they are different pieces). The MDC boxcars have operating doors (and door claws) as on the old Athearn BB's, but these have been replaced with non-operating doors without "claws". The strirrup steps are cast into the floor and are mere retangles while the Athearn RTR's are finer and shaped correctly. The grabs on the MDC are of the drop step type, while on the Athearn they are of the "H" type.
The poling pockets and the roofs are indentical, as well as the location and detail of the tackboards on the ends (they even have the same exact flaw), which indicates that it is, indeed, the MDC tooling. As shown, however, it's been highly upgraded and modified.
I can't run through every Athearn RTR, but at least with the 85' TOFC and the 40' PS-1 boxcar, the fact is that they are not the merely the old Athearn/MDC kits put together. They actually put some real money into fixing up these old cars, which therefore justifies their higher prices. And that's not getting into the knuckle couplers (yeah, they stink, but they're better than X2F's) and the metal wheels (the cheapest I found on Walthers website were Kadee wheels at $0.71 each...or $2.84 per car).
Paul A. Cutler III
Paul,
I NEVER said ALL anywhere in this conversation. I know full well that they have made some upgrades, fixed some old problems and tooled some new models.
But there are still many items that are the same as the first day I walked behind the counter of a hobby shop to start work in 1969.
And, changing one part to solve a known problem or improve detail is not the same cost as retooling the intire model.
Here is one that is still exactly the same - 50' flat car with two vans - only the paint jobs have improved - all the parts are exactly the same.
Bay window cabooses now have better ladders and end rails, plastic rather than metal, but everything else about them is the same.
And some of that MDC tooling was obviously deemed a better choice for some upgrades than the Athearn versions.
A few upgrades are way different than wholesale replacement. And since many of the parts still interchange it is clear that upgrade is what they have done - not retool completely.
I keep reading figures like $500,000 on all model railroad news groups for new tooling and dies.
What's this figure based upon, if anything, or is it just the figure that everybody quotes "because I read somewhere that it costs $500,000....."?
Show me, other than a quote on another model railroad group, how people arrive at this figure, or is it just a model railroader myth? Not that i don't believe it, I just want proof from a non model railroad group or vested interest group, like a manufacturer's site, on how this figure is arrived at.