ATLANTIC CENTRAL One more thought. Atlas has retooled their line several times in the last 30 years including introducing code 83. PECO has introduced their code 83 line of North American standard turnouts. Walthers has had Sinahara retool their product with isolated frogs and points. These are tooling costs that must be recooped - current product tooling is anything but paid for at this point. Sheldon
One more thought.
Atlas has retooled their line several times in the last 30 years including introducing code 83.
PECO has introduced their code 83 line of North American standard turnouts.
Walthers has had Sinahara retool their product with isolated frogs and points.
These are tooling costs that must be recooped - current product tooling is anything but paid for at this point.
Sheldon
Not to mention the more you produce, the faster the tooling wears outs and the sooner you have to replace. I know peopel will look at it and think "plastic, causing metal to wear out?" Well, yes, it does. Then there's the question of how bad do you let it get (reducing quality of the final product) before you spring for fresh dies.
One other thing, people take today's money and look in 30-40 year old magazines and think that the hobby was so much cheaper. You also need to look at inflation as well. This has never really been a poor man's hobby, even going back to the early days. When the first electric trains came out - electricity in your house was a luxury, not everyone could even afford to have electric lights, let alone an electric 'toy'. Sure, there have always been ways to scrimp and make due with available materials (empty tin can stock and so forth), but if you look at the fully 'finished' layout even 50-60 years ago, notice how many of the people buildign them were doctors and other such professions. Not too many Joe the Plumbers with fully finished 50x30 basement empires full of highly detailed locos and perfectly accurate rolling stock and all craftsman-level structures. Then there's the time vs money trade off. You can have more for less money if you have more time, or you can have more of a layout in less time if you have more money. So maybe you've found a way to make that othersise unafforable dream layotu a reality - but if it takes 100 hours to build that highly detailed inside and out structure from scratch, and you have maybe 5 hours of available hobby time (after work and family and household things), it's goign to take a LONG time to populate a small town with such structures.
--Randy
Modeling the Reading Railroad in the 1950's
Visit my web site at www.readingeastpenn.com for construction updates, DCC Info, and more.
Fred W-
Thanks for some good comments and useful information!
fwrightNickel silver rail is harder on dies than either brass or steel - ask ME if you don't believe me. So the dies through which nickel silver rail is pulled have to be replaced more often.
I had not heard that but will happily investigate it, thanks for the tip.
fwright And almost any firm capable of pulling the rail requires a minimum quantity that will take years to sell - ask LaVancil about his prized code 81 rail that he still has for sale decades after he had it made. Trout Engineering is still selling Tru-Scale wood roadbed from left over stocks. Can you afford to tie up your money for that long?
Yes, I've heard about the famed LaVancil rail-- was thinking about that this morning in fact. But is there more to that story? Why would his rail not sell while other mfgr's rail does sell? Where can I buy LaVancil rail? Who markets it? Why is it not better known or at least heard of? Is that the real problem then, marketing?
Trout Engineering on the other hand is likely suffering from a different problem-- progress. I know about Tru-Scale roadbed, and it is nice stuff, but its rigid construction and doesn't permit any flexibility on the part of the user. Thus you either have to know exactly what you're going to build ahead of time or buy a lot of extra stuff that you'll have on-hand afterwards. I see Tru-Scale stuff come up all the time for sale on ebay. Funny thing is, its nearly always new-but-neer-used, i.e., "stuff I bought for my layout and was surplus". Plastic flextrack and cork roadbed simply provided an easier route for most people.
fwrightSpikes and ties - you can make your own. Steve Hatch at Railway Engineering (http://www.railwayeng.com/ allows you to compete with his custom turnout business by telling you how to make your own spikes (scroll down page for link to article) and lay your own turnouts.
Thank you for reminding me about that web site. I've seen it before, have it bookmarked, but had completely forgotten about it. In fact, his method of constructing track and turnouts is very similar to what I have been working on, though sans the spikes. I'm still looking for a good *cheap* source of tie-plates before I can proceed. I don't mind the "hand-laying" aspect, I look forward to that level of involvement. And indeed have been amusing myself with learning techniques to do it while I wait for a resolution for the tie-plate issue.
My plan 'B' at this point is to use CV tie strips. They look great and I think they are a terrific product. Just over-priced. And irrespective, if that's the right solution for me, I will suck it up and bear it. And probably the rails too because my interest and goal is in building a railroad. But that doesn't mean I can't have an opinion about it, or make points that may have some merit.
fwrightIf we are truly being gouged than there is room for a profitable competitor. I'm eager to see your competing track.
I have in fact been working on some products that will likely prove useful to the MR community. I have been designing and building them for my own use thus far, to solve these very kind of issues, where possible of course in a home / light-industrial type environment. My efforts to-date have centered around tool-making and automation of some specific time-consuming tasks. This is where my background lies-- automation, electronics and programming. My "other" hobby is robotics and automation :-) And I will share more on that front when I'm ready.
fwrightAnd cutting your own ties economically does require an investment in a table saw that supports a blade with a very narrow kerf and has a fill for the blade slot so that you can cut to close tolerances without a lot of waste. Cutting PC ties in quantity requires a relatively expensive shear. Either kind of tie requires labor at the saw or shear.
I have been working on that issue as well. But thus far from an out-sourced perspective. So far it appears I can acquire suitable "ties" more cheaply than I can make them, but not through the typical "MR" or stripwood sources.
fwrightIf I need a big layout to enjoy the hobby, I go the club or modular route where resources are combined from among the group.
I am not aware of a club in my area (Herndon / Reston VA) but would be interested in knowing or learning about one, or individuals that might be interested in starting one. I've never belonged to a club before so I don't know if that's an onerous proposition or not. But at the very least it'd be a way to meet some MR's in my area and find out.
John
rrinkerThen there's the time vs money trade off. You can have more for less money if you have more time, or you can have more of a layout in less time if you have more money. So maybe you've found a way to make that othersise unafforable dream layotu a reality - but if it takes 100 hours to build that highly detailed inside and out structure from scratch, and you have maybe 5 hours of available hobby time (after work and family and household things), it's goign to take a LONG time to populate a small town with such structures. --Randy
Then there's the time vs money trade off. You can have more for less money if you have more time, or you can have more of a layout in less time if you have more money. So maybe you've found a way to make that othersise unafforable dream layotu a reality - but if it takes 100 hours to build that highly detailed inside and out structure from scratch, and you have maybe 5 hours of available hobby time (after work and family and household things), it's goign to take a LONG time to populate a small town with such structures.
Very definitely true. For me, I'm okay with "good enough" for the most part. But I am interested in hand-laying my track and making it look as good as I can, at least the visible parts. And I have recently determined that I want all of my turnouts, especially in hidden or hard-to-reach areas to be the highest quality I can afford or can make. I don't care what they look like, which I'm sure will reduce the price-- especially if I'm able to make them myself. I don't even care if they have ties as long as they stay in gauge and otherwise operate the way they need to.... which even as I'm typing this gives me a wild and wacky idea for my staging yard--- which if it works will reduce the cost of *all* my staging yards from hundreds of dollars to tens of dollars..... thanks y'all !!! I appreciate it....
jwhitten I don't even care if they have ties as long as they stay in gauge and otherwise operate the way they need to.... which even as I'm typing this gives me a wild and wacky idea for my staging yard--- which if it works will reduce the cost of *all* my staging yards from hundreds of dollars to tens of dollars..... thanks y'all !!! I appreciate it....
I don't even care if they have ties as long as they stay in gauge and otherwise operate the way they need to.... which even as I'm typing this gives me a wild and wacky idea for my staging yard--- which if it works will reduce the cost of *all* my staging yards from hundreds of dollars to tens of dollars..... thanks y'all !!! I appreciate it....
If your "breakthrough" thought is laying staging track rails directly on the surface with no ties, it's been done and failed. Turns out that pretty small bits of dirt can derail the trains or get into the works if there are no ties. If the rail is up on ties, the crud mostly falls harmlessly between the ties.
Some hobby "breakthoughs" that are dreamed up are not new, nor particularly good.
alco_fanjwhitten I don't even care if they have ties as long as they stay in gauge and otherwise operate the way they need to.... which even as I'm typing this gives me a wild and wacky idea for my staging yard--- which if it works will reduce the cost of *all* my staging yards from hundreds of dollars to tens of dollars..... thanks y'all !!! I appreciate it.... If your "breakthrough" thought is laying staging track rails directly on the surface with no ties, it's been done and failed. Turns out that pretty small bits of dirt can derail the trains or get into the works if there are no ties. If the rail is up on ties, the crud mostly falls harmlessly between the ties. Some hobby "breakthoughs" that are dreamed up are not new, nor particularly good.
That's a good tip and probably useful-- thanks, but nope, that's not what I was thinking, not even close. Is just if aesthetics is not a big concern, I may have thought of a way to do it much cheaper is all. I'm in the process now of researching it and contacting mfgr's. If it will work though, I'm not going to keep it a secret, I just wanna find out if I'm right first.
Avoiding the utter nonsense posted on this topic (as in they should give away track), one thing no one has discussed yet is that once you build your layout, you might not buy any track again for years...even decades. My club has been around for 72 years. We're currently building just our 3rd new layout since World War II. We have probably gone 20+ years without buying a single new switch or piece of rail.
What kind of business can survive that at give-away prices?
Paul A. Cutler III
It seems to me that the business interests behind Model Railroading have been overlooking a significant detail that is probably a contributor in cutting their collective throats-- the price of track.
Track is a basic, fundamental essential ingredient in Model Railroading. Without it what have you got?
But if the price of track is too high then it stifles the ability of people to express themselves creatively and utilize the space they have available to its fullest potential.
Well, if they've been cutting their own throats, they've been doing it for a long time.
The MSRP for a 36" length of Atlas code 100 flex track in 1959 (source: June, 1959 MR, page 13) was $1.10. That's the equivalent of $8.11/section today ($811 for 100 sections). The MSRP in the Walthers catalog is $25.95 for 5 lengths (or $5.19/length). Walthers has it on sale, so it's even cheaper. Code 83 is listed at $6.25/section (on sale for $4.98 section).
And if you don't want to pay full MSRP (or Walthers sale price for that matter), Trainworld's selling 100 sections of code 100 flex for $270 ( $340 for code 100). That's only $2.70 /section for code 100 (or 1/3 the inflation adjusted Atlas 1959 list price). Source: March 2010 MR, page 18.
Andre
I like Atlas nickel silver code 100 flex or sectional track, and I like Peco code 100 Insulfrog switches. Peco switches are expensive, but I like the spring-loaded 'snap throw' mechanism for throwing switches manually.
Call me crazy, but I never considered $1/foot of track expensive. (I use Walthers code 83 because other brands don't match up well with their acessories like the turntable)
However $20/turnout, I consider horribly expensive! I would like it ~$10 with the number of turnouts I have. (A little over 120)
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
Question. I looked at the amount of track one would get in a box---100/box of 3' length. Some commented on needing 2 or 3 boxes. If one box gives you the equivalent of about 300' of track and you needed 3 boxes---running about 900' of track----
Just how big was this layout anyhooooo----?????
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Hi,
Lot have been say about the price of pieces of track and we must admit like the other needs of this hobby, track is quite expensive.
Some people say they can find ready to run turnouts for affordable price, other say handlay them.
I don't know the best way to make cheap turnouts but after all these reply I would come back on the system I use and which is often show as a very expensive one.
I calculate the cost in a first series of 10 turnouts, next a second run of 10 turnouts; I find the result not so bad at all.
I am speaking about Fastrack jig system.
Before to calculate the price of a produced turnout, this system is interesting if you need more than 25 turnouts, that's a starting point of view.
Second you don't need all the things offer in the Fastrack line, like point tools or frog tools; they are helpful of course, but you can file the rails whithout them.
I use them in Nscale because I want first class turnouts for my layout and handlay ones for a better look; small tolerances in handlaying Nscale track are gone whith these jigs.
I didn't use the Fastrack laser cut ties, but glue wood ties on the paper template of the turnouts aviable on the site.
So I consider the need of only the following items (price coming from www.handlaidtrack.com this evening).
The price are based to build a standard n°6 turnout in Nscale code 55,whith enough material to build 10 turnouts in a first batch.
A n° 6 jig in Nscale alone 115.45$
A bundle of PC ties(100ties) 12$
A bundle of 11 ME 36' rails (enough to build and around 20 turnouts) 16.2$
A bundle of wood ties (500 ties) 14.65$
TOTAL for all the items 158.3$ or 15.83$ for each turnout, not so bad for a DCC ready to run turnout whith number one runnning qualities and electrical continuity and also whith a fine scale look..
Second run of 10 turnouts, you just need a bundle of PC ties
A bundle of PC ties 12$
You have enough material to build this second run whith the first order remaining parts.
For the second run of 20 turnouts you just need
2 bundle of PC ties 24$
11 ME rails 16.2$
1 bundle of wood ties 14.65$
Total for this run of 20 turnouts 54.85$ or 2.75 for a turnout, You say Fastrack is expensive.....
Of course you need to invest in the jig, but after the cost of the turnout is very cheap if you do this way.
If you are starting to build a big layout it's an invest for a long time.
It seems to be a good option for the people who don't be sure about to full handlay track.
If you buy fastrack jig, buy the crossover one because it allows you to build a turnout alone, a crossover whith two turnouts or a full quad crossover.
Rails and wood ties are aviable probably at other source whith other price; I din't have check it
That's just my calcul and my point of view, but all in all I find the cost lower than lot of us think.
Good night.
Marc
blownout cylinder Question. I looked at the amount of track one would get in a box---100/box of 3' length. Some commented on needing 2 or 3 boxes. If one box gives you the equivalent of about 300' of track and you needed 3 boxes---running about 900' of track---- Just how big was this layout anyhooooo----?????
Here at the ATLANTIC CENTRAL the current layout plan calls for a double track mainline that is about 8 scale miles long, or about 500 actual feet. That's over three boxes right there. Then then there is the 25 staging yard tracks, each about 20' long, that's another box and a half. The main visable freight yard is 7 tracks and about 25' long, slightly more than a half a box. Then there is the industrial areas, passenger terminal, engine terminal and the branch line......
The layout fills a 22' x 40' room and is double decked.......
And I was the one who said track is a bargin today. But, I do use that "inferior" Atlas track at only $3.30 a length and $13 per turnout.
ATLANTIC CENTRALblownout cylinder Question. I looked at the amount of track one would get in a box---100/box of 3' length. Some commented on needing 2 or 3 boxes. If one box gives you the equivalent of about 300' of track and you needed 3 boxes---running about 900' of track---- Just how big was this layout anyhooooo----????? Here at the ATLANTIC CENTRAL the current layout plan calls for a double track mainline that is about 8 scale miles long, or about 500 actual feet. That's over three boxes right there. Then then there is the 25 staging yard tracks, each about 20' long, that's another box and a half. The main visable freight yard is 7 tracks and about 25' long, slightly more than a half a box. Then there is the industrial areas, passenger terminal, engine terminal and the branch line...... The layout fills a 22' x 40' room and is double decked....... And I was the one who said track is a bargin today. But, I do use that "inferior" Atlas track at only $3.30 a length and $13 per turnout. Sheldon
Don't forget the helix between the decks and to/from staging. Mine will require a full box of track, double-tracked-- and there will be two on the layout.
ATLANTIC CENTRAL blownout cylinder Question. I looked at the amount of track one would get in a box---100/box of 3' length. Some commented on needing 2 or 3 boxes. If one box gives you the equivalent of about 300' of track and you needed 3 boxes---running about 900' of track---- Just how big was this layout anyhooooo----????? Here at the ATLANTIC CENTRAL the current layout plan calls for a double track mainline that is about 8 scale miles long, or about 500 actual feet. That's over three boxes right there. Then then there is the 25 staging yard tracks, each about 20' long, that's another box and a half. The main visable freight yard is 7 tracks and about 25' long, slightly more than a half a box. Then there is the industrial areas, passenger terminal, engine terminal and the branch line...... The layout fills a 22' x 40' room and is double decked....... And I was the one who said track is a bargin today. But, I do use that "inferior" Atlas track at only $3.30 a length and $13 per turnout. Sheldon
You, I already knew about!! lol! BTW I love the look of what I see in that steam thread!
I've run across code 55 rail in N scale at one LHS at 2.49/section and so I just started buying them bits and pieces fashion. Now I have a supply!!
Most layouts of that scale got built up over years of putzing with them. Now we see people doing this like pronto------and then wondering why it is so expensive----
cmrproductsSo I suppose if I stated that I have over 11 cases of track on my layout (100 pc/case) and 350 turnouts would not be considered a small layout? I am building a multi level layout in a 2500 sq ft area - it is a prototypical layout doing Conrail in the early 80's As far a the price of track goes it is rather expensive compared to the engine and cars needed to populate the layout. It is all in what one wants to do - building this layout IS what i want to do - so the cost is not an object - it is no different that boating or 4x4s or drag cars - all which I have done and Model Railroading is far far cheaper ! BOB H - Clarion, PA
That, sir, is a tiny bookcase layout!
Hey, since you have the space for the dang thing, why not? My thing was that it could be done over a longer time frame as well. Track only is looking expensive if one had bought the stuff in one fell swoop. Done over a period of time maybe not so much---
Try soliciting competitive bids.
I've had good success approaching several LHS's to bid on my spec-sheet of track with specified brands. The total list price for the lot would have been about $1,500, the actual winning bid saved me about $500 off the list price - cheaper than cherry-picking individual sales.
And it was a win-win deal, I got the discount, and the LHS got the sale, yes they took a lower margin but without carrying the inventory - they just placed the order and called me when it arrived. They deposited my money long befote they paid the distributor.
My experience is that LHS owners are good business people, give them some volume and they'll work with you on the price.
Jim
blownout cylinderYou, I already knew about!! lol! BTW I love the look of what I see in that steam thread!
Thank you - those are just three of about 40 freelanced steamers that protect the schedules here on the ACR. Most are kit bashed in some way, some a lot, some just a little.
blownout cylinderMost layouts of that scale got built up over years of putzing with them. Now we see people doing this like pronto------and then wondering why it is so expensive----
You are very right about this, years ago basement sized layouts took a decade or two, now I see lots of them being built in two or three years from scratch to fully operational and few more years to high levels of scenery.
One member of our local group has gone from a plan I drew to nearly finished scenery in about 5 years, 5 miles of double track, large staging yards, etc, filling about 700 sq ft.
I consider my 800 sq ft to be average size, at least amoung modelers I know. Large layouts are like what Bob H is building or Ken McCory's layout.
Themes and track "milage" vary quite a bit, but most everyone I know with a layout has 500 to 1000 sq ft of layout space or more.
And, as a student of economics and history, I still think track is a bargin right now, even those expensive brands I won't buy.
hardcoalcaseTry soliciting competitive bids. I've had good success approaching several LHS's to bid on my spec-sheet of track with specified brands. The total list price for the lot would have been about $1,500, the actual winning bid saved me about $500 off the list price - cheaper than cherry-picking individual sales. And it was a win-win deal, I got the discount, and the LHS got the sale, yes they took a lower margin but without carrying the inventory - they just placed the order and called me when it arrived. They deposited my money long befote they paid the distributor. My experience is that LHS owners are good business people, give them some volume and they'll work with you on the price. Jim
Now *THAT* is an excellent suggestion! Thank you very much for it. I'm going to give that a try.
jwhittenTry soliciting competitive bids.
We did this when buying Tortoise switch machines. Several of us got together and bought about 6 bulk boxes all at once and lowered the price about 10% below the usual discount price.
GUNS OR BUTTER? GUNS OR BUTTER?
The president of the Seaboard and Western Virginia Railway sends greetings and salutations to the president of the South Pennsylvania Railroad--I guess it is a "railroad" as opposed to a "railway".
Whatever is the case you have, in this topic, raised some very good points for discussion and it has garnished a considerable body of responses. Adding my two cents worth to the mix let me begin by stating that, firstly, at this particular point in time I do not have a layout and most likely not have one for a few years . . . . . which makes my response apropos for this topic since, when I do get around to that new layout, the second thing, behind lumber and other roadbed material, is going to be the purchase of track. Sometime back I joined the ranks of the gainfully unemployed--read that as retired--so subsequently I have not really had a train budget for a few years hence have made few purchases of late. Unless struck by lightning I am anticipating a significant change in that circumstance and hence am preparing, with that change of circumstance, to setting myself a budget and begin the acquisition of new equipment.
As I have stated on other occasions I have, for over a quarter of a century, been a user of N-Scale Code 55 rail and track, first from Rail Craft and currently from Micro Engineering; I have not had to purchase any track for over ten years--that was when I began construction of that last layout which I found it necessary to scrap over two years ago. Despite having made few purchases of late I have, however, been cognizant to the increase of prices over these last few years--slight in some circumstances; abrupt in others. If memory serves me correctly my first couple of cases of Rail Craft's N-Scale unweathered track, purchased circa 1983, cost about $16.00 per case. The most recent Walthers N-Scale catalog tenders a price of about $32.00 for Micro Engineering's offering. That is a 100% increase over 26 plus years. I don't know whether an increase of that amount is significant or not; I don't remember how much I paid ten years ago but I think that the price was somewhere in the vicinity of $26.00 per case. What I do know is that when I begin construction of that next layout three, four, five years down the road the expense of construction is going to be significantly higher than it was back in 1999. Knowing that the Indians and Chinese have bid up the price of copper--I live in Arizona, remember . . . . . we have a lot of that down here . . . . . and that increase in price has enabled several mines located in the eastern part of the state to reopen--I anticipate the price of track--nickel Silver is, after all, a copper alloy--I envision a substantial increase in the price of nickel silver track in the near future as this increase in the price of copper drives the price of copper alloys skyward. One has only to look at what that stupid Spotted Owl did to the price of plywood to underwrite this point. I did not go out and stock up on fifty sheets of plywood to avoid a coming price increase; I have, however, been rationalizing about whether or not to lay in a half-dozen or so cases of this track--or perhaps even Code 40 track which is where I am considering going on this future layout--in anticipation of future requirements.
I do not normally do things like this--buying on the come as it were. I do occasionally barracuda items from my local grocery stores but only those items which I tend to use on a continuing basis; I sometimes wish that I had a stand-alone freezer so that I could stock up on, say, Foster Farm chicken. I do realize, however, that expending my train budget on track which I will, most likely, not be able to use for a few years is going to necessitate my not purchasing model railroad equipment which I will be able to use now. One of my grandmother's favor quips was about "stepping over a dollar to pick up a dime" and I guess that that is exactly what I would be doing were I to overpurchase track simply to save a few bucks.
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
Hi again....for the third time on this post,
Yes some of you have find a way to have better price, but often that mean big order.
I think you could obtain better price if you work whith always the same hobby shop; it's a win/win deal.
Second try to make a group of buyer.
One thing I highly recommend is to make order whith all friend togheter; you make big order which can flavor cheaper price.
I use this way more and more to obtain affordable price on mass needed products like scenery materials, flextrack, switch machines, even on plywood, hardware, everything you need
We are in the way, friends of mine, a group of 11 people to order switch machines; we are beating between Tortoises one and Hankcraft display motors (switchmaster).
I need myself a batch of 150 motors and all togheter we reach 500 motors.
You can beleive the price offered by some dealers, I don't understand where they can win money, but all benefit for us!
Some people of my group are asking for an order of infrared detectors for signal position, we are in the way to obtain more than a 15% discount of on the normal price.
We need a lot of plywood, we go all to the same wood supplier, 7% discount on all wood furnitures.
Speaking about layout, of course if you are building a big one you could have better price because of the quantities of material needed.
But even if your layout is small, try to make big order when it's possible; call your modeler friend, or try an help from your hobby shop by giving him "the exclusivity" of all your order; you can obtain subsequent discounts.
In the industry there are a lot of "group buyer" so they obtain better price, do the same whith friends and you could obtain cheaper price.