SOAPBOX -- Track Dealers -- How the Price of Track Affects Our Hobby

[tstage]

It's a fact of life that the price of things go up: food, housing, merchandise, taxes, etc.  Your choice is to either economize the best you can by shopping around for the best price...or manufacture the product yourself so that you can undercut the competition.

You can always find ways to get the most out of your hobby dollar.  People have been doing it for years.  For some, it's sort of a game to see how inexpensive you can replicate something as good as or even better than what is available on the market.  And you learn new skills by doing it.

Grab the challenge by the scruff of the neck  Complaining is easy.  Looking for alternatives is harder...but, oftentimes, can be more rewarding and less expensive.  And, I agree with Andre who states that we often times don't need as much "stuff" as you already have.

Bottom line: Find the areas of the hobby you can economize on and use that money to fund the areas where you can't.  It's as simple as that.

My ...

Tom

[Silver Pilot]

The price of almost everything goes up over time (it's called inflation).  That's economics.  If prices went down over time then no one would buy stuff today.  Because they know it would be cheaper in the future they put off current purchases.  That's what leads to recessions and depressions.

This is NOT a cheap hobby.  It may have once been, but is not any longer.  Sure you can do things on the cheap and get buy, but when it comes right down to it, it you want to have a top notch looking layout it will be hard to do it on a shoestring budget.

Compare the price and quality of today's models to the price and quality 15 or 20 years ago and the value for your hobby dolar has increased.

If you don't like the price of track, and think you can manufacture it cheaper, then go for it.  If you can truly build it cheaper than the others you'll sell more than Atlas, Peco, ME, Walthers etc. and make a lot money doing it.

Nobody forced you into this hobby and is forcing you to spend money on it.  If the cost is too high, change hobbies.  Try model airplanes, except make one mistake and the airplane is trash; try model rockets at $2-8 per launch and risk losing it everytime you launch it.  They're all hobbies, meaning that you're spending discretionary $$$.  if you don't have them to spend, then don't spend 'em.

[jwhitten]

Midnight Railroader

Graffen

What is really silly is that the parts required to handlay tracks, makes it as expensive as ready made track! I mean come on! $0.92 per 18" code 83 rail EACH! $18 for 200 pcs of PC-ties! $16.65 for 1000 pcs wood-ties! This is the price Fast-Track takes.

 

 Fast-Tracks is unnnecessary. People have handlaid track for decades without expensive supplies.

Scale "ties" are expensive, sure, but you don't need official ties to do the job. Buy inexpensive basswood strips at craft stores, cut them into ties.

Raw rail is available in 36" lengths.

Maybe the economy coupled with higher prices will encourage more people to build them own instead of buying everything ready-made

 

 

I don't have a problem with anything you suggested *EXCEPT* that you're going to pay MORE for all the stuff you mentioned than buying one of the premium brands. (Or at least as much). While you haven't been looking the cost of ties, spikes, stripwood-- and most especially *rails*-- has gone skyrocketing.

If you know of better pricing, and I mean *seriously better pricing*, let's hear about it, I'm all ears-- and include *sources* please, I want to plunk down some cash and buy 1500-3000 feet of the stuff.

John

[Graffen]

But you must surely agree that it is strange that the cost of handlaying your tracks is so much higher than readymade tracks. If the mfg cost is so high for ready-made tracks, how can the rails bought separately be so expensive? I can´t understand that equation.

[jwhitten]

tstage

It's a fact of life that the price of things go up: food, housing, merchandise, taxes, etc.  Your choice is to either economize the best you can by shopping around for the best price...or manufacture the product yourself so that you can undercut the competition.

You can always find ways to get the most out of your hobby dollar.  People have been doing it for years.  For some, it's sort of a game to see how inexpensive you can replicate something as good as or even better than what is available on the market.  And you learn new skills by doing it.

Grab the challenge by the scruff of the neck  Complaining is easy.  Looking for alternatives is harder...but, oftentimes, can be more rewarding and less expensive.  And, I agree with Andre who states that we often times don't need as much "stuff" as you already have.

Bottom line: Find the areas of the hobby you can economize on and use that money to fund the areas where you can't.  It's as simple as that.

My ...

Tom

 

 

After reading my original post and my subsequent responses, do you honestly believe I'm *not* doing that already? I economize at every opportunity. Just about everything I buy is secondhand or at greatly reduced prices on ebay and similar venues. And I take advantage of the occasional opportunities to buy stuff bulk whenever possible, including estate lots, close-outs, going-out-of-business sales, and the like. I scrounge for parts in all areas including many non-MR-related areas.

Secondly, the point of my original post was most decidedly *not* a complaint, or at least not an overt one, but rather pointing out what I think is a sorely missed business opportunity for a sharp-eyed MR mfgr-- to put out good *cheap* track to encourage folks to build their "dream layouts"-- or at least be able to affordably buy enough to build the layout of today, and to do it at a considerably reduced cost and thereby leaving the modeler with enough money to buy their other products instead of sitting by and watching wistfully as all that cash lines the pockets of the track dealers.

Other industries do it all the time-- computer printer mfgrs practically *give* printers away (even to the point of *paying* you to take them sometimes) so they can gig you for the ink. A perfect example of the business model I'm describing. The Gillette razor company figured it out 100 years ago-- give away the razors and sell the blade refills and make a fortune.

So you can accuse me of "complaining" if you like, but I'm pointing out what I think is a very real circumstance, and one that is going unanswered (or perhaps even unnoticed) by people who have a very real and serious interest in the health and continued existence of the MR hobby. Not to mention the possibility of **gasp!** __growth__  (shhhh.... that's just crazy talk there bucko)

The bottom line is I have search high and low for alternatives to the high-pricing of track and track components and simply cannot find any. If you have suggestions and sources, please let me know. I'm all ears and have a wallet-full of cash to bestow any supplier who can make me the right deal. Hint: It won't be at Peco and ME pricing.

 

John

 

[jwhitten]

Silver Pilot

Nobody forced you into this hobby and is forcing you to spend money on it.  If the cost is too high, change hobbies.  Try model airplanes, except make one mistake and the airplane is trash; try model rockets at $2-8 per launch and risk losing it everytime you launch it.  They're all hobbies, meaning that you're spending discretionary $$$.  if you don't have them to spend, then don't spend 'em.

 

 

The ole 'suck it up and take it argument'.... tried and true... if you don't like it, give it up.

Doesn't matter whether my premise has merit or if the cost of track really *is* too high-- the simple fast is that nobody forced me to buy it so I shouldn't question it....

Nobody forces me into buying milk or bread or eggs either-- and last time I checked cows and grass and chickens all made milk, grew, and laid eggs in entirely the same fashion as they always have-- and yet those things keep going up and up and up.... Is it the cost of human labor? Not really. Feed? Nope. A good farm is able to overlap resources to be more or less self-sustaining. That's the way it was for eons until "modern methods" came along-- and commercial concerns came in and started buying up the individual farmers to the point they controlled the bulk of the farms and were able to start ramping up the prices. Nowadays that milk, that bread, and those eggs are more expensive than ever, despite ever-improving methods of obtaining them, shipping them, distributing them, and storing them in the personal larder.

The fact is that we're so used to this dynamic at this point that we've stopped calling anybody on it-- and in fact have just come to accept that its the way things are. High prices just are the way of things and you shouldn't bother your pretty little head questioning "why".

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

 

And I don't disagree with you that in-general, across the board, the value for your dollar has increased-- *EXCEPT* in the area of purchasing track. You can't even do it by hand anymore for cheap.

 

John

[jwhitten]

Blazzin

  I am compelled to ask,  taking in the amount of money spent on track and turnouts.. compared to how much you have spent on other items for a layout.. I'm guessing.. my money spent.. or that will be spent on track and turnouts.. compared to everything else I have bought for Model RR.. I'd guess..

its 1/10 of money spent on track/turnouts.. compared to everything else.

  What is your percenatage I ask.?

 

 

If I understand your question right, I have probably spent in excess of $10-15k or so on non-track items. Perhaps a bit more. But I have bought very little of it at "retail" prices or anything even close to that. But I am a "value" shopper and will beat the bushes to find the deal I'm looking for. My typical cost for a new in the box P2K loco, let's say a GP9 or SD9 or something, is probably $35-45 bucks. Occasionally more, often less. Most of the BLI's I have were gifts so I can't count them, I don't know what was paid for them. I buy rolling stock at estate sales or online at rock bottom prices. I take the good with the bad and sort them out later. I buy building structures by the pound except for a few specific structures, and even then I looked and waited patiently until I could find them at the very best price possible.

But I don't see what your actual point there is-- whatever I end up paying for track, which will probably be 1500-3000 feet, let's say 2000 just to put it in the middle someplace-- it will be a lot. At regular prices, just buying atlas code 100 track would be around $3000 bucks and that's not even counting switches or special trackwork. If I substitute premium track then the cost rises to $5000 or more and still haven't accounted for switches. If I try to purchase the components and handlay it myself, the price is *still* in the same ballpark.

So very obviously the issue of price is *not* based on human labor.

 

[jwhitten]

BRAKIE

jwhitten

BRAKIE

There's one more avenue..Find some good use track..

 

 

What I have been doing is shopping thoroughly, judiciously and expeditiously. When I find a good deal I don't think about it, I just commit the funds and do it. I don't buy "used" track, I am very skeptical of its value unless I am absolutely certain where its been and its condition. Too easy to get rooked that way. But I don't mind new-old-stock, and buying rail stock that's in good condition.

John

 

John,I been buying use track off and on for years with zero problems.

Again,never overlook the use market for nearly new items.I bought 7 use Atlas N Scale switches in near new condition for $1.00 each..I bought 2 use Atlas N Scale Alcos for $80.00($40.00 ea).I don't think these engines was ever ran since they are in pristine condition.

A new Atlas N Scale Alco costs between $59.00-72.00..You know the price of switches

 

 

I don't usually have a problem with used locos and rolling stock. And I'm okay with used track if I can inspect it before purchase. But I don't buy-- especially flextrack-- used online. I have been burnt by that several times and end up getting stuff that is problematic-- it is possible for one to be "too cheap"

[jwhitten]

alco_fan

With all the "philosophizing" and "soapboxing" its a wonder that you have time for the hobby.

Or maybe that is your hobby.

Some of us could consider how many hours we spend on forums instead of doing something productive.

Thousands of people find a way to build layouts and modules without the drama. And some of us probably have a lot less hobby money than the people who complain about prices all the time.

[An aside, part of the reason G track is relatively expensive is that it takes different plastics to withstand UV outdoors.]

 

 

 

 

Yup, its a wonder.

[simon1966]

jwhitten

Other industries do it all the time-- computer printer mfgrs practically *give* printers away (even to the point of *paying* you to take them sometimes) so they can gig you for the ink. A perfect example of the business model I'm describing. The Gillette razor company figured it out 100 years ago-- give away the razors and sell the blade refills and make a fortune.

I believe that your premise is completely wrong when comparing these industries.

First of all the track manufacturers do not stand to make any additional money from the follow-on sales.  if you get an HP printer, you have to buy HP toner/ink, HP makes a killing.  Same with Gillette and the razor.  This business model does not hold up for track manufacturers at all.  If Atlas or ME sells a bunch of track at a loss there is nothing to compel the buyer to then get any additional Atlas or ME product.

As I said in my original response, I don't think that cheap track will cause most folks to buy more track.  It is my belief that space is the limiting factor for most, not track cost.  Cheaper track does not mean buy more track if there is no place to put it.  Cheaper track might mean more money to spend on other parts of the hobby, but why should Atlas reduce its sales so you can spend more with Bachmann?

[Scarpia]

 

jwhitten

Nobody forces me into buying milk or bread or eggs either-- and last time I checked cows and grass and chickens all made milk, grew, and laid eggs in entirely the same fashion as they always have-- and yet those things keep going up and up and up.... Is it the cost of human labor? Not really. Feed? Nope. A good farm is able to overlap resources to be more or less self-sustaining. That's the way it was for eons until "modern methods" came along-- and commercial concerns came in and started buying up the individual farmers to the point they controlled the bulk of the farms and were able to start ramping up the prices. Nowadays that milk, that bread, and those eggs are more expensive than ever, despite ever-improving methods of obtaining them, shipping them, distributing them, and storing them in the personal larder.

Really, you need to take more care with your arguments. Milk prices aren't "ramped" up; in fact most dairy producers operate at a loss; local small farmers can't make a profit at the low prices needed to compete with the large cooperatives. In most cases bottled water costs more than milk.

It is severely naive to presume that the costs surrounding raising dairy cattle, or egg laying hens haven't increased.  To simply presume that the "self-sufficient" farmer is still a viable option in  a modern economy is also ignoring reality. Take a look at the cost of a good used tractor, and try to budgeting that into your annual milk sales off of 50 head. not to mention health insurance, feed, property taxes, etc, etc. etc.

I think the suggestion for you to consider starting your own track company is a great one, I would strongly encourage your attempt, and would promote the product were it of sufficient quality at an appropriate price.

The argument about "sucking it up" is also a very valid one, as no where is it said that Model Railroaders deserve the most inexpensive hobby activity ever.  You need water, air, and food. You don't need anything that involves a hobby.  If part of the hobby costs, X, than it costs X - you can pay to play, find an alternative, or not do it.

I do understand the point of your posts, but not the purpose. Complaining or even "discussing" isn't going to help anything but you brighten some of your apparently otherwise dull day. 

Just think, in the time it's take you to make these posts, you could have easily made 3 or 4 turnouts in that fast tracks you got on eBay. I wonder which activity would be of more benefit in the long run.

[jwhitten]

simon1966

As I said in my original response, I don't think that cheap track will cause most folks to buy more track.  It is my belief that space is the limiting factor for most, not track cost.  Cheaper track does not mean buy more track if there is no place to put it.  Cheaper track might mean more money to spend on other parts of the hobby, but why should Atlas reduce its sales so you can spend more with Bachmann?

 

 

I don't disagree with you (and the other respondants) who point out that space is a deciding factor, and in fact I pointed that out myself in my original post when I said layouts were built to-suit the space constraints and financial budgets. And I'm not suggesting Atlas reduce its sales at all-- there's a number of ways to skin that cat. And you mentioned the best one right off...

 

simon1966

if you get an HP printer, you have to buy HP toner/ink, HP makes a killing.  Same with Gillette and the razor.

 

The only thing stopping any reasonably-sized MR mfgr from mfgr'ing track is inclination.

In my original article I indicated that I understand the economic realities, particularly with respect to the supply aspect-- where else can you go to buy track? So the mfgr's can sell it for whatever price they think they can get and until someone else comes along and starts seriously undercutting them, they're in fat city. And even if someone *does* come along and compete with them, as long as the price is the same or higher, all they're really doing is potentially splitting the market. As long as the market responds with more sales, nobody (track mfgrs) loses and things can continue. Its only when the market does *not* respond with more sales and sales *FALL* that there is an opportunity for relief-- when one mfgr or another "blinks" and lowers their prices. If the value of the product as perceived by the consumer seems the same, then the price typically drives the sale. Then the other mfgrs will typically have to respond in kind or else lose out on sales. Or else react in some other manner that inproves / increased perceived value in the mind of the consumer. All of that is simple economics 101.

And a further thought-- Atlas is free to set their prices as they please, as is any competitor. And they are free to be drummed-out of the market if they do not respond correctly. There is no built-in "god-given" right for Atlas (or anybody else) to sell track at their current or any other price. They can put it out there at whatever price and hope the consumer purchases it. As long as no other competitor comes along and tries to compete with them on price then there is no problem and they can continue to do business as always.

 Do you suppose other mfgr's have even considered making the track themselves and competing with Atlas head-on in that arena? It might even be that Atlas has such a margin in the track that if another competitor came along, their tooling and production costs are already recouped and streamlined and they could easily afford to drop their prices and compete aggressively while the new competitor is still in their early production phases and trying to recoup their costs and stabilize their production.

 

But just because I wonder about these things and even provoke discussion doesn't mean I'm (a) a dullard; (b) undeserving of the best prices I can scrounge; (c) obligated to cow-tow to the status quo; (d) am prevented from "stirring the pot"; (e) must "get out of the hobby" if I don't like it; (f) spending all my time in non-hobby pursuits; (g) wrong.

 

John

John

[tstage]

jwhitten

After reading my original post and my subsequent responses, do you honestly believe I'm *not* doing that already?

John,

I wasn't accusing you of trying or not trying to economize your hobby dollars.  My point was that ALL aspects of the hobby have gone up in price over the years and will continue to go up.  (Some aspects more than others.)

It's kinda like buying gas for your car: You find where you save 10 cents per gallon for the same quality of gas when filling it up.  Eventually, the compound in savings allows you to purchase that needed tune-up for your car...which helps increase the overall MPG of your car...which, in turn, allows you to save even more gas and money.  And I do understand, John, that you are and have been trying to find that allusive "gas station" that sells the quality of track you want.

I think we can speculate and wonder why track is as expensive as it is.  I wouldn't be surprised if prices on plastic aren't somehow speculative (like they are in the oil business) because plastic is a petroleum-based product itself.  However, it is what it is - whether we can determine the reasons for it or not.

Sometimes it just means holding out for the best price you can and buy when you have to.  I do that all the time when searching for particular locomotives.  Had I bought my Trix Mikes when they first came out, I wouldn't have saved 60+% off the MSRP a couple of years ago.  Now prices are back up between the price I paid and the original MSRP.  I'm glad I jumped on it when I did.

Tom

[jwhitten]

Scarpia

help anything but you brighten some of your apparently otherwise dull day. 

Just think, in the time it's take you to make these posts, you could have easily made 3 or 4 turnouts in that fast tracks you got on eBay. I wonder which activity would be of more benefit in the long run.

 

 

In the time I'm making these posts I'm holding my sick kid who's having a totally rotton day except for when we've been in the basement running some trains-- and now he's nestled up beside me, having fallen asleep watching 'chitty chitty bang bang', and I don't have the heart to wake him.

 

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

WOW, all this while I was out doing a little work today.

Having started in this hobby at age 12 in 1967, and having worked in a few hobby shops as early as 1969, I would say I have good knowledge of the cost of things in this hobby over the years.

Anyone remember TruScale Ready Track? Way more expensive, adjusted for inflation, than even the "premium" brands today. It was the Premium brand of its day. My first layout was all TruScale, some Ready Track, some I built from their kits.

Personally, I am building a fairly large layout and did consider the cost of track before I began. I use Atlas code 83, I buy it mail order by the whole box. I buy turnouts several dozen at a time the same way.

Atlas code 100 flex, from Standard Hobby, $269.99 per bx of 100 - code 83, $329.99 per box of 100.

Turnouts, every size/code/etc, less motors - less than $13.00 each.

Not bad in my book.

I don't buy those premium brands, I always have thought they were over priced. Not enough better than an Atlas Custom Line to justify twice as much money from my pocket. After all the ballast, paint and weathering Atlas turnouts look fine to me - and they work fine too.

Then the magazines are full of articles on how to "fix" or "up grade" those over priced turnouts.

The only thing I do to my Atlas turnouts is file down the frogs to the rail height if needed.

I use to hand lay my track and turnouts, but it takes time and I want things to move a little faster this time around - and this layout is bigger than those I hand layed years ago.

I do build custom stuff if I need it, but that is only a few pieces on this layout.

And, I agree bulk rail seems to have gotten expensive. I remember buying Campbell ties and bulk rail for way less than any commercial track. Maybe - hand laying supplies have kept pace with inflation and commercial track is actually less now ajusted for inflation - I have some old catalogs, maybe I can run some numbers.

Here is some quick info from the 1983 Walthers Catoalog:

Atlas code 100 Custom Line turnouts - $4.00 each - all sizes

Peco #6 - $12.98 (Boy was this stuff outragous then, just like it is now)

TruScale Ready track #6 - $16.00, kit version $7.85

Generally, I'm a believer in the market, if something can sold cheaper and still make money, someone will, just to beat the guy who's already out there.

Maybe track is really a bargin today! Not over priced at all.

Sheldon

 

[jwhitten]

tstage

I wasn't accusing you of trying or not trying to economize your hobby dollars.  My point was that ALL aspects of the hobby have gone up in price over the years and will continue to go up.  (Some aspects more than others.)

 

tstage

Sometimes it just means holding out for the best price you can and buy when you have to.  I do that all the time when searching for particular locomotives.  Had I bought my Trix Mikes when they first came out, I wouldn't have saved 60+% off the MSRP a couple of years ago.  Now prices are back up between the price I paid and the original MSRP.  I'm glad I jumped on it when I did.

 

 

Yes, I understand and agree.  From the outset of this post I have been discussing my opinion and supposition of the situation. I agree that many things in the hobby seem expensive, but in thinking it through, and searching high and low for the elusive "gas station" you mention, I am having a hard time understanding the reason for the price-- other than its what the market will bear. None of the constituent elements seem all that expensive-- and compared to other areas of the hobby in which the costs are more comprehendable. It costs money to design and develop a new locomotive. Or a building structure. And the runs are typically limited so the cost must be borne across the whole set. With track on the other hand, you pay to make a foot of the stuff, or three feet if flex track, or whatever-- and then once you've done that and set up your molds and tools, you pump out the same old thing day in and day out over and over ad infinitum. And when the mold wears out you go back to the master, cut a new one, and keep on going. An incremental production cost yes, but not the same as redesigning the whole kit-and-kaboodle from the outset, which is what many of the other mfgr'd items (trains, buildings, accessories, etc) have to contend with. Plus it has a reasonably indefinite shelf life.

 

And I fail to see why thinking about it and discussing it means I should "get out" if I don't like it. People post stuff here all the time about what they like or don't like. I don't see why the cost of making track is a taboo subject.

 

 

John

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

One more thought.

Atlas has retooled their line several times in the last 30 years including introducing code 83.

PECO has introduced their code 83 line of North American standard turnouts.

Walthers has had Sinahara retool their product with isolated frogs and points.

These are tooling costs that must be recooped - current product tooling is anything but paid for at this point.

Sheldon

[simon1966]

jwhitten

But just because I wonder about these things and even provoke discussion doesn't mean I'm (g) wrong.

But john, you specifically compared track manufacturers to business' where there is a high margin disposable consumable item that is required to be purchased from the manufacturer of the main item.    There is no disposable consumable item that is required to be purchased to continue to use model train track.  The analogy simply does not hold up.  This type of loss-leader business model only works if the manufacturer has a guaranteed income stream from the consumable.

I don't disagree with any of your other thoughts on the subject, I just don't agree with equating track manufacturers with companies that make a product that has a high margin consumable.

[Motley]

From my perspective....(newbie new layout)

I started with NOTHING only 2 months ago, I mean no locos, no rolling stock, NOTHING. This hobby is expensive as hell. Good thing I'm single.. LOL

So far I have spent alot of money.

Benchwork $200 total

Walthers 39" flex $8/each x 30 = alot
PECO #6 turnouts $30/each x 28 = alot
PECO switch machines $10/each x 28 = alot
Cork roadbed $2/each x 35 = alot
WS Grass matt $22/each x 5 = alot

I'm actually ready to buy a new Digitrax system for about $750

Now, I still  have to get DCC locos and rolling stock. OMG!

OUCH, my head and my wallat hurts.

[Allegheny2-6-6-6]

 John,

 

I couldn't agree with you more except and there is always an except. I also had sticker shock when it came to the price of flex track when I started building the new layout. I bought a case from a LHS that was going out of business so I got it on the cheap but when i ran out the price tag hit me like a ton of bricks. So much for building the super empire using strictly Micro engineering flex track and turnouts YIKES! so I got in to bargain shopping mode and the bottom line was the cheapest price around was almost right under my nose in a hobby shop that does mainly internet business but does a little walk in traffic as well. So I almost fell off my chair when he gave me the price per length over the phone a whole dollar cheaper then anyone else I found. Oh BTW I found someone at the club who had some and couldn't give Model Power flex track away. That just reinforced my belief that the cheapest is usually not the best choice. Hey if anyone out there likes it and wants to run it more power to you but thats my o/p on it. So I purchased another case and hopefully I shouldn't need any more until I break through the wall into the next room some time next year.

So now it's on to purchasing turnouts, switch machines, stationary decoders, a new command station, sound decoders and on and on and on and on. Every item mentioned getting increasingly more expensive. Yes hunted down a few more deals here and there but every time I made major purchases I could hear the dead presidents screaming as they left my wallet. So as the layout progresses and the budget keeps taking hits it's looking to me like the track was one of the cheaper parts of the layout.

 

Lets face it, is there anything we buy that we wouldn't like to get cheaper? When I start doing a little cyber window shopping  I cringe at he price of some of the high end locomotives and models etc. Lets face it the face of the hobby has changed and I fell there is probably more money being made in it then ever before, and why is that. Because there are maybe hundreds of thousands of guys like us across the country and around the world who are willing to pay the prices. Some may argue that it's because the quality is better, the technology is so much more advanced and on and on. All viable points and some would say well with technology the way it is why doesn't the price come down like it has with computers etc. Well it has and it will until it levels off, basic economics.and marketing.

Should the price of track and everything else in the hobby be cheaper absolutely, will it come down, most likely no, why because it's a business and businesses are there to make money. I'm sure the same argument came up back in the day when you could go into an LHS and buy a really high quality brass locomotive for maybe a few hundred instead of a few thousand dollars.Back in 1968 my uncle came over the house`with a brand new big block corvette a real machine 427 4 speed blue with black interior my dad told him he ws out of his mind and that no car was worth paying $6500 for.

Nothing different in this hobby.

[Midnight Railroader]

jwhitten

you're going to pay MORE for all the stuff you mentioned than buying one of the premium brands. (Or at least as much).

 

More than $15 a turnout? No way. 

[cacole]

Many years ago (like in the 1950s - 1960s) there was a product called True Scale milled roadbed, that was wood milled into roadbed shape with ties cut into it and grooves for handland track.  It came in straight sections and various radius curves that you cut to fit and then hand laid rail onto it.

Back is its day it was really a premium priced product, too.  I still have two True Scale #8 turnouts mounted on True Scale milled turnout roadbed that I assembled sometime around 1964 or '65.

[andrechapelon]

Other industries do it all the time-- computer printer mfgrs practically *give* printers away (even to the point of *paying* you to take them sometimes) so they can gig you for the ink. A perfect example of the business model I'm describing. The Gillette razor company figured it out 100 years ago-- give away the razors and sell the blade refills and make a fortune.

Remind me to avoid investing in any business you decide to go into. The things you describe above have mass markets and by that I mean customers numbered in the millions not the thousands. That business model won't work in a low volume business like model ralroading.

Even if there were millions in the hobby, there's nothing hobby related that can be considered a consumable in the printer cartrige/razor blade model, not even paint and thinner (unless you're a custom painter and go through gallons of the stuff).  There is just no way to make the Gillette model work in the hobby. Especially not with track. Track's a durable good, more like the razor than the blades.

You want to buy thousands of feet of track? How big is your layout going to be?

Andre

P.S. It's a lot easier to put a lid on your ambitions than it is to increase your means.

 

 

[Teditor]

It's really quite simple, the buyer always pays too much, the seller never makes enough, so if you are paying too much, become a manufacturer/seller and solve the problem by using your ethics and suggestions.

I'm sure that anyone who takes this direction will make a small fortune, but in the usual Model Railroading parlance, "just make sure you start with a large fortune".

This is a hobby, the needs are not life threatening and can be geared to your situation.

My personal approach after many years in the hobby and several large wasted layouts is to support the club I'm in, this way I get to build/operate a large layout, the club gets a better deal than I as an individual will get, I get to spend my money on more locos/rolling stock and also get to share the hobby more.

I have no qualms about buying track, scenery etc for the club layouts as I reap the benefits and get to share them as well.

Am I rich, NO! I'm a pensioner, and I enjoy this hobby because it gives me what I want in a "hobby" at prices I can afford with regulation of spending and priorities, I have  a large collection of N Scale and it keeps growing, and I can make use of it on the clubs more than 100ft of Modular layout and around the same in the permanent layout (the two get connected together when the modular is not at an exhibition). 

And if you think you have it tough, come and be a model railroader in Australia (we are wrapped in the $ value at the moment and still pay double what you do).

Ted (Teditor) Freeman

Secretary - Darling Downs Model Railway Club Inc.

Toowoomba, Queensland, Australia.

[blownout cylinder]

Silver Pilot

The price of almost everything goes up over time (it's called inflation).  That's economics.  If prices went down over time then no one would buy stuff today.  Because they know it would be cheaper in the future they put off current purchases.  That's what leads to recessions and depressions.

Yep. good ol' Deflation. That would grind everything down.

Silver Pilot

Nobody forced you into this hobby and is forcing you to spend money on it.  If the cost is too high, change hobbies.  Try model airplanes, except make one mistake and the airplane is trash; try model rockets at $2-8 per launch and risk losing it everytime you launch it.  They're all hobbies, meaning that you're spending discretionary $$$.  if you don't have them to spend, then don't spend 'em.

Restoring cars would be just more expensive. People sell a lot of driver quality restored cars at a 50% loss in terms of what they spent in restoring----

[hcc25rl]

 I use only ATLAS track and turnouts. Their price has more than doubled sinced I have been in the hobby.

Still, more than worth it for me, since I have limited time, skills, funds and ambition for my passion.

[tstage]

jwhitten

I am having a hard time understanding the reason for the price-- other than its what the market will bear

John,

Instead of us speculating infinitum ad nauseum about prices, wouldn't it be better to ask the manufacturer directly why their track seems to cost so much nowadays?  At least you might be able to get clearer answers to your questions.  It's a stab in the dark otherwise.

jwhitten

People post stuff here all the time about what they like or don't like. I don't see why the cost of making track is a taboo subject.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the topic being taboo.  It simply boils down to four (4) basic options if you don't like the price of something; albeit track, locomotives, supplies, etc:

• Find it cheaper (discount vendor or buying in bulk)
  
• Build it cheaper (small scale - from individual parts and supplies)
  
• Manufacture it cheaper (large scale - This drives the price down because of quantity)
  
• Don't buy or build it at all

As you've already stated, John, point 4 is NOT an option if you want to enjoy MRRing.

Given the history of MRRing, we are quite blessed with the abundance and quality of things available at this moment in time because of technological advances in manufacturing.  Our "founding fathers" didn't have that luxury and had to pretty much scratch-build just about everything in those early years.  With those advances, though, come an increase in cost.

Tom

[NittanyLion]

 Its not the actual price point that gets me.  Its that it just seems so disproportionately expensive for some reason.

[fwright]

 Just a few points, then back to lurking.

In 1975, when I first started model railroading on my own, benchwork materials and track were the obvious budget busters for a guy bringing home $500/month (and no kids then, either!).  Rent was $170 to $225 (I couldn't stay in the $225 place because I couldn't afford it), the car payment was $140.  Hobby budget was $20/month, IIRC.

With flex track at $1 per length from mail order, and turnouts around $4 each, commercial track was too rich for my blood.  I decided to try hand laying.  The big difference wasn't so much in total cost, but in cost/hour to enjoy the hobby.  Building a turnout from roadbed to wired, finished, detailed and weathered end result probably cost a buck in materials, but took 4 hours.

 Which is the same reason I used Campbell structure kits instead of plastic, or Silver Streak car kits instead of Athearn BB.  The number of hours with the craftsman style kits drove the cost/hour lower than the faster, cheaper stuff.

Hand laying regular track costs about the same in materials for commercial rail, ties, and spikes per foot as flex track.  The savings is in turnouts, which cost about $4-$5 in materials to hand lay.

Nickel silver rail is harder on dies than either brass or steel - ask ME if you don't believe me.  So the dies through which nickel silver rail is pulled have to be replaced more often.  And almost any firm capable of pulling the rail requires a minimum quantity that will take years to sell - ask LaVancil about his prized code 81 rail that he still has for sale decades after he had it made.  Trout Engineering is still selling Tru-Scale wood roadbed from left over stocks.  Can you afford to tie up your money for that long?

Spikes and ties - you can make your own.  Steve Hatch at Railway Engineering (http://www.railwayeng.com/ allows you to compete with his custom turnout business by telling you how to make your own spikes (scroll down page for link to article) and lay your own turnouts.  And cutting your own ties economically does require an investment in a table saw that supports a blade with a very narrow kerf and has a fill for the blade slot so that you can cut to close tolerances without a lot of waste.  Cutting PC ties in quantity requires a relatively expensive shear.  Either kind of tie requires labor at the saw or shear.

If we are truly being gouged than there is room for a profitable competitor.  I'm eager to see your competing track.  But based on ME, Peco, and Atlas not cutting their prices in the face of MP and other cheap competition, I suspect their margins aren't as high as you think.  And notice that the track companies specialize in track.  Aside from a few plastic building kits, Atlas didn't make anything else until the '80s.  ME and Peco still don't.  What increased sales would the track manufacturers get if they used track as a loss leader?

The scope of one's layout is determined by all 3 resources - time, money, and space.  Usually we have one or two of the 3 in excess of the other, so the 3rd becomes the limiting factor on how much layout one can do.  In my lucky case, all 3 are quite limited.  I accept the fact that I'm dealing with small layouts that take years to complete, and enjoy the hobby from there.  If I need a big layout to enjoy the hobby, I go the club or modular route where resources are combined from among the group.

back to lurking

Fred W

[blownout cylinder]

tstage

Manufacture it cheaper (large scale - This drives the price down because of quantity)

 

Quality, in terms of actual prototypical looks, could suffer here as well. You want cheaper you pay for it somewhere-- 

tstage

• Don't buy or build it at all

As you've already stated, John, point 4 is NOT an option if you want to enjoy MRRing.

Sorry tstage, but this IS an option----don't we call it "Armchair MRRing"?

There is also Virtual MRR'ing as well---but you need a computer for that.

Or operations with waybills and such as a deck of cards----play it out like a card game--