CNJ831So, is there really anyone out there that can supply hard, factual, published figures on this situation, not just the usual speculation and personal opinion? Certainly, the real answer would weigh heavily on the question posed by this thread.
I doubt that even the pure raw data published would work. Subjectivism rules now.
The way some are about DCC you'd think that it was like a new religion. And you have to seek converts---- And I use DCC. I'm just not that fundamentalist about it.
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
DigitalGriffin DCC has become so ubiquitous even entry models from bachmann come with dual mode decoders.
DCC has become so ubiquitous even entry models from bachmann come with dual mode decoders.
I see this statement broadly made on many forums these days and by more than a few in this very thread, but I have yet to see anything, anywhere, in print to substantiate that DCC is to be found on more than perhaps 30% of existing layouts today, and this includes from our host's magazine. In fact, the last notation I saw them provide a few years ago was only 25% of folks are actually using DCC! Yet, from the way one hears it from internet forum posters, it would seem that DC operating systems have been pushed to the very fringes of the hobby.
While I'll agree that many younger hobbyists of late have started out from scratch with DCC, or switched over to it, I know relatively few older, established, hobbyists with essentially finished layouts that have done so. To me, the very fact that today's models come with dual mode decoders implies that there remains a very strong DC contingent in the hobby.
So, is there really anyone out there that can supply hard, factual, published figures on this situation, not just the usual speculation and personal opinion? Certainly, the real answer would weigh heavily on the question posed by this thread.
CNJ831
jwhittenI know my granddad had sound long before the advent of electronics. But some of you "older" guys may not remember it.... he used to go "Woooo Woooo" and "Chh chh chh chh" and "Ding ding ding ding".... he didn't need no stinking electronics...
Everyone knows that's not a proper pennsy horn. It goes Whuuuuooaaah Whhuuuuoooaaah Wo Wo Chugga Chugga chuff chuff Chugga chugga chuff chuff. Return your soundbox back to the store. You got ripped.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
First place without question: DCC
Second place: High quality plastic models with can motors and low gearing at the fraction of the cost of brass. They allow people like me to buy 20, 30 engines instead of a select few 4 or 5 that need tweeking to run properly. (Although we are much closer there is still no substitute for brass weight and detail.)
Without a doubt DCC. DC has lost significant traction in the last 5->10 years. The reduction of complicated blocks and toggles has vastly simplified complex layout design. The addition of sound which is only implemented well with DCC has also garnered attention.
Train clubs that have been running DC for better than 50 years are now switching over to DCC even.
I was away from the hobby for about 20 years and when I came back, DCC is all the rage. It probably is the most important advance in the last 20 to 30 years, as it changes the way railroads are wired, operated, sound, etc. But at the same time, it is much more expensive than conventional DCC control (especially if you have to upgrade an existing fleet of locos).
As far as older building methods vs new, the new store bought material looks better, but in this economy the old materials and methods are the only way I can continue the construction of my layout. I have several years worth of older MRR mags as well as some of the Kalmbach How To books, and they have explanations of the older methods. Why not a new series of articles about the older materials like a "recession special". I think a lot of folks would really enjoy it.
blownout cylinderTexas ZepherBRAKIEI have a love/dislike relationship with DCC/sound. I have a dislike relationship with the relationship everyone seems to make between DCC and sound. I guess just because many of the younger people's first sound locomotive was also DCC they assume they have to be linked. ?!? I had sound long before I ever used DCC. You may have had sound long before the DCC thing showed up but how many of the younger guys would've known that? Not very many I reckon---- I suggest that one could say that the introduction of solid state electronics brought DCC/DC into the fore front that much quicker-----think of the IC for example--
Texas ZepherBRAKIEI have a love/dislike relationship with DCC/sound. I have a dislike relationship with the relationship everyone seems to make between DCC and sound. I guess just because many of the younger people's first sound locomotive was also DCC they assume they have to be linked. ?!? I had sound long before I ever used DCC.
BRAKIEI have a love/dislike relationship with DCC/sound.
You may have had sound long before the DCC thing showed up but how many of the younger guys would've known that? Not very many I reckon----
I suggest that one could say that the introduction of solid state electronics brought DCC/DC into the fore front that much quicker-----think of the IC for example--
I know my granddad had sound long before the advent of electronics. But some of you "older" guys may not remember it.... he used to go "Woooo Woooo" and "Chh chh chh chh" and "Ding ding ding ding".... he didn't need no stinking electronics...
TMarshThe most important advancement. Hm. I also am torn between plastics, and the internet. Plastics for the reasons already mentioned, but much the same things can be accomplished with wood. Plastics have the advantage, in my opinion of simulating brick, stone etc and are far less susceptible to humidity, or the lack of. So I'd say plastics as one. The other, though not directly related to MRR, is the internet. It brings the world of model railroading close.
The most important advancement. Hm. I also am torn between plastics, and the internet.
Plastics for the reasons already mentioned, but much the same things can be accomplished with wood. Plastics have the advantage, in my opinion of simulating brick, stone etc and are far less susceptible to humidity, or the lack of. So I'd say plastics as one.
The other, though not directly related to MRR, is the internet. It brings the world of model railroading close.
I am curious-- you and several other folks (more other folks) have stated that the Internet doesn't really count because it doesn't "directly relate to MR", but then without a second thought suggest "plastic" as an advance, which had no more to do with "MR" than the man-in-the-moon. Though I do agree that it was quite successfully applied and *I* would have no problem including it as a MR advance... but then, I have no trouble including the Internet either I liked your suggestion about ebay too. That's a very good observation, in my opinion, because you're right-- it does make obtaining stuff a heckuvalot easier. And another thing that ebay (and similar venues) does is allow modelers to sell off stuff, either things that don't fit their vision, or else just "stuff", to accumulate resources to pursue their hobby interests, perhaps even from the same venue!
The other, though not directly related to MRR, is the internet. It brings the world of model railroading close. The access to new items has been available for years though mail order and catalogs along with your LHS, but the used or out of production stuff through places like E-bay make acquiring that piece or pieces much more likely. Also the wealth of information contained on the internet is inconceivable. The BEST part by far, and again this is my opinion, is the forums such as this one. They are priceless in this hobby. The amount of information passed on through this forum alone on a daily basis is mind boggling. You could get info at train shows and of course at your LHS, but that information is limited to the experience a few. Here, well, you get all sorts of views and many trials and errors, why's and why not's. As someone said, it's like the worlds largest club. With access to the largest amount of information, knowledge and experience one could possibly have. The newest items and ways are just seconds away from being in front of you instead of waiting for the printed material or weeding it's way through train shows.
Maybe I have decided after all. I'll say IMHO it's the internet. Yes, I think I will.
Todd
Central Illinoyz
In order to keep my position as Master and Supreme Ruler of the House, I don't argue with my wife.
I'm a small town boy. A product of two people from even smaller towns. I don’t talk on topic….. I just talk.
I only use DCC/Sound because that's the way the majority of the sound equip locomotives and sound decoders come and in the early days of sound one had to have DCC.That's the only reason I went DCC..After sound could be used with either DCC or DC I drop DCC on my one horse ISLs...Then I drop sound.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Hi!
The most important advance in MR is a very subjective question, and "qualifiers" need to be added (IMHO) for the question itself.
Having played with trains since the '50s, I've seen a lot of improvements over the years, especially the availability of all the wonderful locos and car/structures (kit and RTR) in the last 15 years.
If I had to narrow it down, two things really made a difference to me and my interest & involvement (and spending lots of bucks) in the hobby.
- I was a diehard DC guy for decades, but got the nerve to make the switch to DCC a year ago. Between the easy, independent control of locos and the sound systems many of them have, I really enjoy running trains again.
- The Internet has allowed us MRs two things. One, we can go online and pretty much find anything we could want for our trains. Whether you are a collector, operator, or building a layout, you can get whatever you need from the "net" - although I would suggest your LHS first.
The other thing provided by the Internet is the various Forums - with the Trains Forum being "the best". I credit it - and all who participate in it - for helping me through many questions and problems, and allowing me to share what expertise I have with others. As a "lone wolf" MR - and I suspect there are a lot of others - "you all" are my club! And, I really appreciate you - and the Forum!
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
John,Here's my thoughts.
----------------------------------------------------
Do you think its improved materials in construction of track? Improvements in locomotive and rolling stock manufacture? Better motors? Improved tolerances? Newer procedures and methodologies? Improvements in scenicking materials? Better glue? Better electronic control systems? DCC? Sound?
--------------------------------------------------
Depends on ones view.While I like the RTR far better then kits I don't care one iota how fragile they have become.Even with extreme careful handling tiny detail parts falls off or gets broken off...IMHO that's not a "improvement" unless they are made for looking at in the box.
As far as scenicking materials I think that is one of the greatest improvements along with foam for scenery.
As far as DCC/Sound that is a one of the improvements in the hobby that is solely base on a modelers given and druthers...I have a love/dislike relationship with DCC/sound.
--------------------------------------------
Are the old ways better? Which "old ways" would that be? DC Block-switching? Heavier locomotives? More solid construction? Something else?
-------------------------------------------
Actually the old ways still work for those of us that still cling to the basic concepts that the hobby doesn't really need a lot of glitter and do dads to be enjoyable.
DC block wiring is often misunderstood thanks to the "experts" and now the DCC crowd..DC blocking need not be a spaghetti bowl of wires and smaller layouts need not be over blocked.
And slightly to the side of the previous question-- what is your opinion between "Store-Bought" and "Scrounged" materials for construction, building, etc? There seems to be a definite push, particularly in the hobby press-- who understandably has an agenda to sell advertising and gain revenue-- for "Store-bought" materials and copyrighted / patented processes and solutions versus the old "tried and true" methods.
Well,I will vote for store bought stuff because IMHO its superior to some home made things I've seen especially trees.Of course there are many things that one can make that will save dollars-sunshades made from flat narrow strips of ABS plastic steel overhead doors,steel beam loads,pipes,drainage pipes, can be home spun...There's a place for both.
Guys,The thing to remember is not every new gimmick or latest technique one sees in magazines may not be all that great of a idea just because it pushed by the editor of a magazine or the latest "golden boy" modeler..
jwhittenIn your opinion, what would you say the most important advance in Model Railroading is?
First I would contend it is NOT the internet. The internet is an advance in society in general that has benefited society in many ways and just happens to include model railroading. Likewise I have a hard time saying it is digital photography, laser cutting, extruded foam, computer train operating programs, plastics, miniature motors, or electronics. Once again those are general things that just happen to have applications in Model Railroading.
An "advancement in Model Railroading" would/should be something specific to the MR industry.
If one takes the entire history of model railroading - I think I would have to agree with those who said "the development of standards". So the NMRA standards & RPs would be "it".
If one takes the developmental years when Model Railroading became a main stream hobby I think it just might be the Athearn blue box. Responsible for the introduction of many many people to the hobby with fairly reliable and durable products.
On the other hand if one considers just the last 20 years or so it is a much harder question. 1. I could say DCC not because it allows multiple trains on the same track - we had that long before, so I could say the "DCC standard" allowing multiple manufactures products to work together. 2. I could say the Kato drive which Atlas introduced in 1984. It set the standard that all the manufacturers have tried to match ever since. However that was 1984 - almost too long ago to qualify.3. I could say the BLI California Zephyr cars which set a new standard for passenger cars, but passenger cars are a scale specific thing and a niche in the big scheme of model railroading.4. Code 83 track for HO and code 55 for N? Na...
I really don't know.
CNJ: the lightness of the material is what got my wife. Because of her physical limitations she was having difficulties even with small dioramas. Now, not so much
Now, if only I can find a way to convince 'Spring' to exercise his paws on the foam so that I can make up a gullied field---
CNJ831As a scenery guru, I would say without hesitation that the incorporation of foam insulation board into the modeler's kit of basic scenicking materials was the greatest revolution/advance the hobby has seen...although curiously it was one of the slowest to take hold.
That's an interesting and unexpected observation, thanks! I wouldn't have thought of that.
I take it then that your layout is all or mostly foam-based ??
There's so many things. Having not been in the hobby long enough (I'm 15, and only got super-serious about it less than 5 years ago) to remember the days before DCC and flextrack even existed, I can't say much. But if I had to take 5 guesses, they would be (not in any particular order):
My Model Railroad: Tri State RailMy Photos on Flickr: FlickrMy Videos on Youtube: YoutubeMy Photos on RRPA: RR Picture Archives
As a scenery guru, I would say without hesitation that the incorporation of foam insulation board into the modeler's kit of basic scenicking materials was the greatest revolution/advance the hobby has seen...although curiously it was one of the slowest to take hold. It was introduced to hobbyists in an MR article authored by Linn Westcott, way back in 1957. Prior to that time - and for a long time afterward - basic layout scenery started with chicken wire with layers of heavy plaster/plaster soaked burlap, etc. applied. Often a hobbyist would mix in quantities of asbestos (!) to toughen it, but it still chipped and cracked, as well as making finished layout sections virtually immovable because of their weight.
Likewise, to create truly realistic-looking mountainous/rocky terrain from plaster and chicken wire, you had to be something of a master modeler. Nowadays, even a novice can quickly gain the basic skills necessary to fabricate foam mountains, valleys, rock cuts and tunnels that look as good as those created by hobbyists of long experience. This doesn't even begin to descibe the revolution foam panels created in the way of portable modular/exibition railroading, what with its light weight and rugged durability.
Many thanks, Linn!
For me it is the advent of DCC for the way it totally enhances operation, a wider variety of kits of varying levels of difficulty which have, in turn, allowed people like me to develop their skills, Kalmbach books and the information they provide to novices and experts alike, the water soluble scenery method for obvious reasons, and the internet and Ebay.
There's never time to do it right, but always time to do it over.....
I think it would be dcc that way it looks more realistic running multiple engines on one track.
Chris
Here's a couple:
1. The development of the Athearn Blue Box mechanism (HO scale).
Though BB loco's themselves were not perfect/ quiet runners, most of todays high-end mechanisms are variations of the Athearn BB drive (Kato, Atlas, BLI, Athearn Genesis, ect.).
2. Nickel silver track and wheelsets, they just make everything run better.
Just my ,
Jamie
Cape Vincent Southern Railroad
HO scale Horseshoe Curve in 5’x10’
My YouTube
In order I think the most important are:
NMRA standards and RP's - I think the hobby would be very small without these, if it survived at all. Being able to mix and match manufacturers is as important to the hobby as standard gauge is to the prototype for interchange.
Wireless DCC - A simple way to follow and control your train. Plus you get sound.
Good Quality RTR - Track, locomotives, freight cars, passenger cars, and buildings. This speeds up the building of layouts so you can get to running trains faster.
Enjoy
Paul
Be nice to each other, this is just for fun!
In your opinion, what would you say the most important advance in Model Railroading is?
And WHY ?
Track. Without it, we'd still be pushing our trains around the floor.
Andre
From the 30s to the early 70s0s Model railroading was in its developmental stage. Since then many things have become Standard Operational Practice.
Since the 70s Waterbased sscenery, The internet and DCC have been the most important advances. BILL
I'll chime in and second the motion for the influence of the Interwebs. Years ago, if you needed to know the number of a particular locomotive, you had to scour old periodicals and hope for the best. And if you wanted a particular picture, forget about it! If it wasn't published in a book or magazine, or in a close friend's slide carousel, you were SOL.
Now, you want to see the fireman's side of an Alco RSD-15 in 1957 on a particular bridge along a particular railroad, you Google it, and moments later you have exhaustive resources at your fingertips.
Add to that the networking opportunities, collaborating opportunities, and all the Q&A and advice you can find, it's absolutely amazing how much you can learn just sitting in the den for an evening.
Personally, I spend wayyy too much time on this dern thing, but it's so fast and fun, it's hard to resist!
Lee
Route of the Alpha Jets www.wmrywesternlines.net
el-capitanDCC is a big advance in the hobby. Not for me in particular, since i enjoy DC, but for the average joe starting out. being able to run multiple trains with limited wires is big for the hobby in general. Biggest detriment - plastic RTR rolling stock. Alot of guys are gonna disagree but I really feel strongly about this. I fell in love with this hobby by building All-nation wood and metal kits with my dad as a kid. Now, I have to buy kits off ebay to give my son the same experience. At some point (late 80's?) the hobby (especially o scale, maybe earlier for HO) shifted from the 'modeling trains' being the focal point to 'modeling layouts' being the focal point. Layouts still should be a big part, but it should be 50/50 between building layouts and building trains. Not 99/1 like it is now. I know not many on here are going to agree, I just feel that it is a way more enjoyable hobby when you are building, painting, decaling, weathering your own stuff. In a way, it's a microcosm of society, we want it now with minimal effort expended.
DCC is a big advance in the hobby. Not for me in particular, since i enjoy DC, but for the average joe starting out. being able to run multiple trains with limited wires is big for the hobby in general.
Biggest detriment - plastic RTR rolling stock. Alot of guys are gonna disagree but I really feel strongly about this. I fell in love with this hobby by building All-nation wood and metal kits with my dad as a kid. Now, I have to buy kits off ebay to give my son the same experience. At some point (late 80's?) the hobby (especially o scale, maybe earlier for HO) shifted from the 'modeling trains' being the focal point to 'modeling layouts' being the focal point. Layouts still should be a big part, but it should be 50/50 between building layouts and building trains. Not 99/1 like it is now.
I know not many on here are going to agree, I just feel that it is a way more enjoyable hobby when you are building, painting, decaling, weathering your own stuff. In a way, it's a microcosm of society, we want it now with minimal effort expended.
You're absolutely entitled to your opinion, and I wouldn't worry what other people think about it. If that's the aspect of the hobby that you enjoy-- by all means, enjoy it!
For me, I'm one of those "layout modelers" that you mentioned-- or rather, I'm on my way to becoming one. I like building train models okay, but really only as a means to an end-- running the trains. I have to admit there is a certain sense of accomplishment when I manage to put together a kit without gluing my fingers together too many times. And its especially thrilling when I can look at the picture on the box and the finished result without wincing too much...
John
markpierce I can't decide among: Availability of small, inexpensive electric motors suitable for powering smaller-scale locomotives. Model railroading magazines and books. NMRA establishment of standards and manufacturers' acceptance of them. Mark
I can't decide among:
Availability of small, inexpensive electric motors suitable for powering smaller-scale locomotives.
Model railroading magazines and books.
NMRA establishment of standards and manufacturers' acceptance of them.
Mark
I'd go with all of these
Internet comes in handy as well here---easier to find prototypes for buildings and landscape when one cannot go to the location.
FazbyThe passage of time, which covers - Older modelers, including those no longer with us, who have contributed the pioneering experience through direct teaching and articles - The development of standards. - New technologies - MR Darwinism: the best practices are adopted.
The passage of time, which covers
- Older modelers, including those no longer with us, who have contributed the pioneering experience through direct teaching and articles
- The development of standards.
- New technologies
- MR Darwinism: the best practices are adopted.
That's true.
I'm surprised though that nobody has mentioned "modeling skills" which develop and advance over time.
trainnut1250John, Pretty much agree with what has been already posted. I'll offer a few more and repeat myself repeat mysel ..... Wireless DDC and sound are huge to me. running trains independently is pretty cool and allows for much more realistic operations Prototypical standards being applied across the spectrum of newer releases. Red Caboose, P2k, Spectrum, Intermountain, Athearn Genesis, Blueprint Series etc. The move towards prototypical accuracy helps everyone's railroad look better, even if you are freelancing. Modern Plastic/Diecast steam. Man what a difference!! P2k, Spectrum, Blackstone, BLI etc... These locos run great (look great) out of the box and are a far cry from the earlier (mass produced) offerings. Laser Cut kits and the move towards more prototypical building kits...What can you say? excellent structures without board by board. I'm In. LDE's and linear layout design. More focus on operations based layouts that function well. These concepts float down to the 4 X 8 crowd as well and help create layouts that are more fun to operate on any level. As for the RTR thing, I would say that we need all types in the big tent. I think RTR brings people into the hobby and indirectly RTR helps fund other smaller stuff that more hardcore modelers like. So I say more the merrier. Beginners (and some old timers) don't want to see a Red Caboose kit with 500 parts as their introduction to the hobby. RTR helps them get started...but after a few years they might gravitate to Red Caboose, etc.. (I did). I think this is the "golden age" of the hobby n terms what is out there, the price, quality and the detail offered. Your mileage may vary, Guy
John,
Pretty much agree with what has been already posted. I'll offer a few more and repeat myself repeat mysel .....
Wireless DDC and sound are huge to me. running trains independently is pretty cool and allows for much more realistic operations
Prototypical standards being applied across the spectrum of newer releases. Red Caboose, P2k, Spectrum, Intermountain, Athearn Genesis, Blueprint Series etc. The move towards prototypical accuracy helps everyone's railroad look better, even if you are freelancing.
Modern Plastic/Diecast steam. Man what a difference!! P2k, Spectrum, Blackstone, BLI etc... These locos run great (look great) out of the box and are a far cry from the earlier (mass produced) offerings.
Laser Cut kits and the move towards more prototypical building kits...What can you say? excellent structures without board by board. I'm In.
LDE's and linear layout design. More focus on operations based layouts that function well. These concepts float down to the 4 X 8 crowd as well and help create layouts that are more fun to operate on any level.
As for the RTR thing, I would say that we need all types in the big tent. I think RTR brings people into the hobby and indirectly RTR helps fund other smaller stuff that more hardcore modelers like. So I say more the merrier. Beginners (and some old timers) don't want to see a Red Caboose kit with 500 parts as their introduction to the hobby. RTR helps them get started...but after a few years they might gravitate to Red Caboose, etc.. (I did).
I think this is the "golden age" of the hobby n terms what is out there, the price, quality and the detail offered.
Your mileage may vary,
Guy
Thank you Guy for your thoughts!
I agree that DCC and independent loco control are nice additions although I'd wager that there are a lot of 'oldsters' out there who would argue that DC-blocks are just as effective. Or point out that there have been other methods of independent train control such as Astrac and Dynatrol, but certainly the advent of the digital microprocessor ushered in a new era of train control products.
I don't know about the 'golden age' but there certainly is a lot to select from.
And a counterpoint to my original position, if the products and methods are out there, why not use them? Perhaps the model rags are doing us a favor by introducing us to the new products and techniques that could potentially yield better or more consistent results, or perhaps cost less (Ha! :-) or be more effective, or whatever-- but it certainly does come across as 'crass commercialism' pretty often. I guess maybe I just pine for the articles of old on occasion. But I have to agree there is a wide panoply of exciting products available today to pick from, a veritable triple-chime horn of plenty!