I think it would be dcc that way it looks more realistic running multiple engines on one track.
Chris
For me it is the advent of DCC for the way it totally enhances operation, a wider variety of kits of varying levels of difficulty which have, in turn, allowed people like me to develop their skills, Kalmbach books and the information they provide to novices and experts alike, the water soluble scenery method for obvious reasons, and the internet and Ebay.
There's never time to do it right, but always time to do it over.....
As a scenery guru, I would say without hesitation that the incorporation of foam insulation board into the modeler's kit of basic scenicking materials was the greatest revolution/advance the hobby has seen...although curiously it was one of the slowest to take hold. It was introduced to hobbyists in an MR article authored by Linn Westcott, way back in 1957. Prior to that time - and for a long time afterward - basic layout scenery started with chicken wire with layers of heavy plaster/plaster soaked burlap, etc. applied. Often a hobbyist would mix in quantities of asbestos (!) to toughen it, but it still chipped and cracked, as well as making finished layout sections virtually immovable because of their weight.
Likewise, to create truly realistic-looking mountainous/rocky terrain from plaster and chicken wire, you had to be something of a master modeler. Nowadays, even a novice can quickly gain the basic skills necessary to fabricate foam mountains, valleys, rock cuts and tunnels that look as good as those created by hobbyists of long experience. This doesn't even begin to descibe the revolution foam panels created in the way of portable modular/exibition railroading, what with its light weight and rugged durability.
Many thanks, Linn!
CNJ831
There's so many things. Having not been in the hobby long enough (I'm 15, and only got super-serious about it less than 5 years ago) to remember the days before DCC and flextrack even existed, I can't say much. But if I had to take 5 guesses, they would be (not in any particular order):
My Model Railroad: Tri State RailMy Photos on Flickr: FlickrMy Videos on Youtube: YoutubeMy Photos on RRPA: RR Picture Archives
CNJ831As a scenery guru, I would say without hesitation that the incorporation of foam insulation board into the modeler's kit of basic scenicking materials was the greatest revolution/advance the hobby has seen...although curiously it was one of the slowest to take hold.
That's an interesting and unexpected observation, thanks! I wouldn't have thought of that.
I take it then that your layout is all or mostly foam-based ??
CNJ: the lightness of the material is what got my wife. Because of her physical limitations she was having difficulties even with small dioramas. Now, not so much
Now, if only I can find a way to convince 'Spring' to exercise his paws on the foam so that I can make up a gullied field---
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
jwhittenIn your opinion, what would you say the most important advance in Model Railroading is?
First I would contend it is NOT the internet. The internet is an advance in society in general that has benefited society in many ways and just happens to include model railroading. Likewise I have a hard time saying it is digital photography, laser cutting, extruded foam, computer train operating programs, plastics, miniature motors, or electronics. Once again those are general things that just happen to have applications in Model Railroading.
An "advancement in Model Railroading" would/should be something specific to the MR industry.
If one takes the entire history of model railroading - I think I would have to agree with those who said "the development of standards". So the NMRA standards & RPs would be "it".
If one takes the developmental years when Model Railroading became a main stream hobby I think it just might be the Athearn blue box. Responsible for the introduction of many many people to the hobby with fairly reliable and durable products.
On the other hand if one considers just the last 20 years or so it is a much harder question. 1. I could say DCC not because it allows multiple trains on the same track - we had that long before, so I could say the "DCC standard" allowing multiple manufactures products to work together. 2. I could say the Kato drive which Atlas introduced in 1984. It set the standard that all the manufacturers have tried to match ever since. However that was 1984 - almost too long ago to qualify.3. I could say the BLI California Zephyr cars which set a new standard for passenger cars, but passenger cars are a scale specific thing and a niche in the big scheme of model railroading.4. Code 83 track for HO and code 55 for N? Na...
I really don't know.
John,Here's my thoughts.
----------------------------------------------------
Do you think its improved materials in construction of track? Improvements in locomotive and rolling stock manufacture? Better motors? Improved tolerances? Newer procedures and methodologies? Improvements in scenicking materials? Better glue? Better electronic control systems? DCC? Sound?
--------------------------------------------------
Depends on ones view.While I like the RTR far better then kits I don't care one iota how fragile they have become.Even with extreme careful handling tiny detail parts falls off or gets broken off...IMHO that's not a "improvement" unless they are made for looking at in the box.
As far as scenicking materials I think that is one of the greatest improvements along with foam for scenery.
As far as DCC/Sound that is a one of the improvements in the hobby that is solely base on a modelers given and druthers...I have a love/dislike relationship with DCC/sound.
--------------------------------------------
Are the old ways better? Which "old ways" would that be? DC Block-switching? Heavier locomotives? More solid construction? Something else?
-------------------------------------------
Actually the old ways still work for those of us that still cling to the basic concepts that the hobby doesn't really need a lot of glitter and do dads to be enjoyable.
DC block wiring is often misunderstood thanks to the "experts" and now the DCC crowd..DC blocking need not be a spaghetti bowl of wires and smaller layouts need not be over blocked.
And slightly to the side of the previous question-- what is your opinion between "Store-Bought" and "Scrounged" materials for construction, building, etc? There seems to be a definite push, particularly in the hobby press-- who understandably has an agenda to sell advertising and gain revenue-- for "Store-bought" materials and copyrighted / patented processes and solutions versus the old "tried and true" methods.
Well,I will vote for store bought stuff because IMHO its superior to some home made things I've seen especially trees.Of course there are many things that one can make that will save dollars-sunshades made from flat narrow strips of ABS plastic steel overhead doors,steel beam loads,pipes,drainage pipes, can be home spun...There's a place for both.
Guys,The thing to remember is not every new gimmick or latest technique one sees in magazines may not be all that great of a idea just because it pushed by the editor of a magazine or the latest "golden boy" modeler..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Hi!
The most important advance in MR is a very subjective question, and "qualifiers" need to be added (IMHO) for the question itself.
Having played with trains since the '50s, I've seen a lot of improvements over the years, especially the availability of all the wonderful locos and car/structures (kit and RTR) in the last 15 years.
If I had to narrow it down, two things really made a difference to me and my interest & involvement (and spending lots of bucks) in the hobby.
- I was a diehard DC guy for decades, but got the nerve to make the switch to DCC a year ago. Between the easy, independent control of locos and the sound systems many of them have, I really enjoy running trains again.
- The Internet has allowed us MRs two things. One, we can go online and pretty much find anything we could want for our trains. Whether you are a collector, operator, or building a layout, you can get whatever you need from the "net" - although I would suggest your LHS first.
The other thing provided by the Internet is the various Forums - with the Trains Forum being "the best". I credit it - and all who participate in it - for helping me through many questions and problems, and allowing me to share what expertise I have with others. As a "lone wolf" MR - and I suspect there are a lot of others - "you all" are my club! And, I really appreciate you - and the Forum!
Mobilman44
ENJOY !
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
BRAKIEI have a love/dislike relationship with DCC/sound.
Texas ZepherBRAKIEI have a love/dislike relationship with DCC/sound. I have a dislike relationship with the relationship everyone seems to make between DCC and sound. I guess just because many of the younger people's first sound locomotive was also DCC they assume they have to be linked. ?!? I had sound long before I ever used DCC.
I only use DCC/Sound because that's the way the majority of the sound equip locomotives and sound decoders come and in the early days of sound one had to have DCC.That's the only reason I went DCC..After sound could be used with either DCC or DC I drop DCC on my one horse ISLs...Then I drop sound.
The most important advancement. Hm. I also am torn between plastics, and the internet.
Plastics for the reasons already mentioned, but much the same things can be accomplished with wood. Plastics have the advantage, in my opinion of simulating brick, stone etc and are far less susceptible to humidity, or the lack of. So I'd say plastics as one.
The other, though not directly related to MRR, is the internet. It brings the world of model railroading close. The access to new items has been available for years though mail order and catalogs along with your LHS, but the used or out of production stuff through places like E-bay make acquiring that piece or pieces much more likely. Also the wealth of information contained on the internet is inconceivable. The BEST part by far, and again this is my opinion, is the forums such as this one. They are priceless in this hobby. The amount of information passed on through this forum alone on a daily basis is mind boggling. You could get info at train shows and of course at your LHS, but that information is limited to the experience a few. Here, well, you get all sorts of views and many trials and errors, why's and why not's. As someone said, it's like the worlds largest club. With access to the largest amount of information, knowledge and experience one could possibly have. The newest items and ways are just seconds away from being in front of you instead of waiting for the printed material or weeding it's way through train shows.
Maybe I have decided after all. I'll say IMHO it's the internet. Yes, I think I will.
Todd
Central Illinoyz
In order to keep my position as Master and Supreme Ruler of the House, I don't argue with my wife.
I'm a small town boy. A product of two people from even smaller towns. I don’t talk on topic….. I just talk.
You may have had sound long before the DCC thing showed up but how many of the younger guys would've known that? Not very many I reckon----
I suggest that one could say that the introduction of solid state electronics brought DCC/DC into the fore front that much quicker-----think of the IC for example--
TMarshThe most important advancement. Hm. I also am torn between plastics, and the internet. Plastics for the reasons already mentioned, but much the same things can be accomplished with wood. Plastics have the advantage, in my opinion of simulating brick, stone etc and are far less susceptible to humidity, or the lack of. So I'd say plastics as one. The other, though not directly related to MRR, is the internet. It brings the world of model railroading close.
The other, though not directly related to MRR, is the internet. It brings the world of model railroading close.
I am curious-- you and several other folks (more other folks) have stated that the Internet doesn't really count because it doesn't "directly relate to MR", but then without a second thought suggest "plastic" as an advance, which had no more to do with "MR" than the man-in-the-moon. Though I do agree that it was quite successfully applied and *I* would have no problem including it as a MR advance... but then, I have no trouble including the Internet either I liked your suggestion about ebay too. That's a very good observation, in my opinion, because you're right-- it does make obtaining stuff a heckuvalot easier. And another thing that ebay (and similar venues) does is allow modelers to sell off stuff, either things that don't fit their vision, or else just "stuff", to accumulate resources to pursue their hobby interests, perhaps even from the same venue!
blownout cylinderTexas ZepherBRAKIEI have a love/dislike relationship with DCC/sound. I have a dislike relationship with the relationship everyone seems to make between DCC and sound. I guess just because many of the younger people's first sound locomotive was also DCC they assume they have to be linked. ?!? I had sound long before I ever used DCC. You may have had sound long before the DCC thing showed up but how many of the younger guys would've known that? Not very many I reckon---- I suggest that one could say that the introduction of solid state electronics brought DCC/DC into the fore front that much quicker-----think of the IC for example--
I know my granddad had sound long before the advent of electronics. But some of you "older" guys may not remember it.... he used to go "Woooo Woooo" and "Chh chh chh chh" and "Ding ding ding ding".... he didn't need no stinking electronics...
I was away from the hobby for about 20 years and when I came back, DCC is all the rage. It probably is the most important advance in the last 20 to 30 years, as it changes the way railroads are wired, operated, sound, etc. But at the same time, it is much more expensive than conventional DCC control (especially if you have to upgrade an existing fleet of locos).
As far as older building methods vs new, the new store bought material looks better, but in this economy the old materials and methods are the only way I can continue the construction of my layout. I have several years worth of older MRR mags as well as some of the Kalmbach How To books, and they have explanations of the older methods. Why not a new series of articles about the older materials like a "recession special". I think a lot of folks would really enjoy it.
First place without question: DCC
Second place: High quality plastic models with can motors and low gearing at the fraction of the cost of brass. They allow people like me to buy 20, 30 engines instead of a select few 4 or 5 that need tweeking to run properly. (Although we are much closer there is still no substitute for brass weight and detail.)
Without a doubt DCC. DC has lost significant traction in the last 5->10 years. The reduction of complicated blocks and toggles has vastly simplified complex layout design. The addition of sound which is only implemented well with DCC has also garnered attention.
Train clubs that have been running DC for better than 50 years are now switching over to DCC even.
DCC has become so ubiquitous even entry models from bachmann come with dual mode decoders.
Don - Specializing in layout DC->DCC conversions
Modeling C&O transition era and steel industries There's Nothing Like Big Steam!
jwhittenI know my granddad had sound long before the advent of electronics. But some of you "older" guys may not remember it.... he used to go "Woooo Woooo" and "Chh chh chh chh" and "Ding ding ding ding".... he didn't need no stinking electronics...
Everyone knows that's not a proper pennsy horn. It goes Whuuuuooaaah Whhuuuuoooaaah Wo Wo Chugga Chugga chuff chuff Chugga chugga chuff chuff. Return your soundbox back to the store. You got ripped.
DigitalGriffin DCC has become so ubiquitous even entry models from bachmann come with dual mode decoders.
I see this statement broadly made on many forums these days and by more than a few in this very thread, but I have yet to see anything, anywhere, in print to substantiate that DCC is to be found on more than perhaps 30% of existing layouts today, and this includes from our host's magazine. In fact, the last notation I saw them provide a few years ago was only 25% of folks are actually using DCC! Yet, from the way one hears it from internet forum posters, it would seem that DC operating systems have been pushed to the very fringes of the hobby.
While I'll agree that many younger hobbyists of late have started out from scratch with DCC, or switched over to it, I know relatively few older, established, hobbyists with essentially finished layouts that have done so. To me, the very fact that today's models come with dual mode decoders implies that there remains a very strong DC contingent in the hobby.
So, is there really anyone out there that can supply hard, factual, published figures on this situation, not just the usual speculation and personal opinion? Certainly, the real answer would weigh heavily on the question posed by this thread.
CNJ831So, is there really anyone out there that can supply hard, factual, published figures on this situation, not just the usual speculation and personal opinion? Certainly, the real answer would weigh heavily on the question posed by this thread.
I doubt that even the pure raw data published would work. Subjectivism rules now.
The way some are about DCC you'd think that it was like a new religion. And you have to seek converts---- And I use DCC. I'm just not that fundamentalist about it.
STEELERSFAN I have several years worth of older MRR mags as well as some of the Kalmbach How To books, and they have explanations of the older methods. Why not a new series of articles about the older materials like a "recession special". I think a lot of folks would really enjoy it.
I too have a fairly extensive collection of MR's going back to the late 30's and 40's... (I admit, I have some holes, not all of them in my collection... )
I think your suggestion of a new series of articles recapping / reintroducing "old" methods and materials is a capital suggestion and one that perhaps our host will pick up on and implement!
(And of course, its not like they don't already have the source material either )
John
DigitalGriffinHigh quality plastic models with can motors and low gearing at the fraction of the cost of brass. They allow people like me to buy 20, 30 engines instead of a select few 4 or 5 that need tweeking to run properly.
Some people might suggest that only having 4 or 5 is "better" and perhaps "more appropriate" for most railroads (layouts). They might also suggest that "tinkering" with them to get them running better is not a bad thing, and they might say that brass locomotives tend to be heavier so they pull better and have stronger and more rugged drive mechanisms so will last longer pulling heavier trains. If you happened to still be listening to "them" by this point they'd probably also tell you how having only a few locomotives would be more conducive to "customization" and adding "details" and special parts to make them "more your own" (or your railroad's) and how a nice custom paint job can really push them over the top without breaking the bank (versus painting an entire fleet).
Of course I have around 200 "more affordable" well-detailed plastic locos and have never even so much as *held* a brass locomotive in my life, so what the heck do I know???
DigitalGriffinjwhittenI know my granddad had sound long before the advent of electronics. But some of you "older" guys may not remember it.... he used to go "Woooo Woooo" and "Chh chh chh chh" and "Ding ding ding ding".... he didn't need no stinking electronics... Everyone knows that's not a proper pennsy horn. It goes Whuuuuooaaah Whhuuuuoooaaah Wo Wo Chugga Chugga chuff chuff Chugga chugga chuff chuff. Return your soundbox back to the store. You got ripped.
My granddad was running a New York Central consist at the time...
jwhittenI am curious-- you and several other folks (more other folks) have stated that the Internet doesn't really count because it doesn't "directly relate to MR", but then without a second thought suggest "plastic" as an advance, which had no more to do with "MR" than the man-in-the-moon. Though I do agree that it was quite successfully applied and *I* would have no problem including it as a MR advance... but then, I have no trouble including the Internet either
Well, I guess your right in that plastic wasn’t designed, created, advanced, whatever, for model railroading. I guess what I really mean is it’s advancement has made an advancement in model railroading with it‘s use. I think. Don’t really know how to put it like I mean it. The changes in the types and production ways have put all these different items in our laps easily and in abundance that have, again in my opinion, added so much to the variety of things that can be built in the hobby. What was before mainly wood or cardboard, could not easily be made to represent other materials such as stone or brick etc, even wood can be simulated very well with plastic. Now don’t get me wrong there is almost nothing that makes a modeled wooden structure look better than wood, but plastic can add details and other material appearances much easier. Let’s face it, for most of us, without plastic, we wouldn’t have near the nice looking brick or stone structures. Well, never thought of rosin until now. Who knows, with the advancement in the home printers and the cost of them dropping to almost cheap, the printed building faces may bring back cardstock and take the place of styrene. Of course then again you have humidity to think about.
Very few things however were invented or created for model railroading specifically. They were invented, created, or advanced for other purposes and the model industry just adapted their use for ours, so I don’t really consider something like plastic or the internet to be any different than say the electric motors our lokes use, nickel steel, use of brass or even the electronic capabilities that are used for DCC to be anything model railroad specific. Just something like the light bulb that we’ve altered to fit whatever need we have. I’m sure if I thought long enough I could think of something but you get my point. I hope.
Did I clear that up, or make it more confusing?
And yes, my thoughts on the advantage of E-bay is pretty much exactly yours. As much as some people dislike it, you have to admit most times the chances of getting taken, without due care, is very good even at face to face sales. With, of course, the exception of at least you get to do the touchy feely thing with a face to face. But, with the limited and out of production models made, without places like E-bay, HO yard sale and others, you could spend a lifetime looking for that certain item that with these sites, if you watch, pretty soon someone will have one for sale. Then of course you have to hope someone else doesn't want it worse than you. That's an auction. But the information. THAT's were the internet really shines.
Todd,I fully agree that the Internet can be directly related to the hobby as one of the best railroad research tools..Forums can be used as a research tool as well.
So,in theory one could say the Internet its a advancement to the hobby even though it has a gazillion other uses.
DigitalGriffinWithout a doubt DCC. DC has lost significant traction in the last 5->10 years. The reduction of complicated blocks and toggles has vastly simplified complex layout design. The addition of sound which is only implemented well with DCC has also garnered attention. Train clubs that have been running DC for better than 50 years are now switching over to DCC even.
While I very much agree with you about the advantages and benefits of DCC, I completely disagree about the supposed impediment of blocked-DC. Blocks permit permit a number of useful functions, even in a DCC world:
-- They allow you to divide your layout up between DC and DCC control so you can continue to operate DC locomotives that have not yet been converted (admittedly a stop-gap benefit if your thesis is that DCC is better and running DC is simply an interim proposition)
-- Follow-on to the previous, blocks permit your friends to bring over their non-DCC locos and run them on your layout (same caveat applies)
-- DC blocks permit you to control which sections of your layout are *powered* versus *non-powered*, irrespective of your position on DC or DCC. This might potentially save your favorite loco from the long dive to the floor. It may have a more mundane use also-- if you have a large layout, you may want to conserve DCC power (districts) to only "operating" locos and not power (DCC) locos that are not operating, and thus saving you amps going through your power booster. You can keep them all on the layout but only power the ones you want to operate.
-- DC blocks permit absolute control / "authority" over a section of track-- a block. Admittedly if the block control is not properly exercised then the advantage is lost. And also if the block is set to permit DCC then the advantage is only conveyed to the preceding and succeeding blocks, and only within the DCC block to whatever degree the DCC controller permits. Also, I note that "authority" is perhaps not the best word to use in this context as I do not mean to suggest by its use any conveyance of "rights" to the trains within the block, but rather only the establishment of electrical power within that block.
-- DC blocks can be used to represent "authority", in the true sense, for layouts (railroads) that use a dispatcher and adhere to good operating procedures. In which case, even if a block is switched to a DCC cab, it still must agree to honor the external authority of the dispatcher (or yardmaster, or whatever).
-- DC blocks can be useful in setting up "signaling" for modelers who want the appearance of signals and are okay with a "simplistic" solution.
-- DC blocks can be use to separate different areas of the layout from each other for different purposes. Such that one area of the layout *physically* cannot interfere with another, no matter what happens. This might be useful for setting up a route for a train (using DC blocks which might further be switched to a DCC cab / system) or limiting a train's access / "authority" to a region such as a switching district or a yard, or the like. Note that I realize this would probably be a very special configuration and probably outside the need or justification of any but a club layout-- as it could potentially imply the use of multiple DCC systems and not just cabs, which could add considerable expense to just an ordinary layout.
The main downsides to DC blocking these days is:
-- The cost of wire and switches needed to implement such a scheme. On the other hand, one might pbserve that if you're going to follow established "best practices" and add feeders to every section of track, or at least to tracks spread throughout your layout, that you may perhaps use an approximate amount of wire in either case.
-- It adds "complexity" and increased problem potential without commensurate benefit. The truth of this is largely a "philosophical" statement although I do agree that complexity does increase the likelihood of problems and adds additional overhead when troubleshooting same. The use of prefabricated electronic assemblies and digital systems does also tend to mitigate (and even simplify) some of the problem potential, though it could be argued that while it may mitigate the potential for problems, it adds to the overhead and/or cost in their remediation if ever it is required.
-- There is usually more time spent in the initial construction, particularly under-the-benchwork and at-the-workbench, designing, wiring and otherwise setting up the system.
Other folks may be able to think of additional pros and cons. These are the ones I was able to think up off the top of my head.
TMarshWell, I guess your right in that plastic wasn’t designed, created, advanced, whatever, for model railroading. I guess what I really mean is it’s advancement has made an advancement in model railroading with it‘s use. I think. Don’t really know how to put it like I mean it.
Don't sweat it-- I wasn't busting on you particularly but more simply commenting on how carefully several respondents have compartmentalized the advent and effect on the hobby whilst at the same time being very carefully to state how they felt it was not a true "advance" within the hobby itself, and then went on to suggest other items that had a similar characteristic of origin.
I have definitely been interested in the responses that people have offered, and have been intrigued by the distinctions that some people have made, though I'm not suggesting that any are more "right" or "wrong" than any others-- they are all subjective and are not really subject to such rigid judgments. That's one of the things I like about these "Philosophy Friday" things-- there really is no right or wrong answer, I'm just asking questions to see what people think about various things.
And I must also say I have *thoroughly* enjoyed reading through all the responses on all of the questions so far.There are a lot of interesting people here with unique and thought-provoking perspectives. Who often remind me that "new" is not "improved" and "wisdom" is not what you know but what you do with it.
Please everyone, keep your responses coming! Speaking only for myself, I really enjoy hearing what you have to say!
TMarshAnd yes, my thoughts on the advantage of E-bay is pretty much exactly yours. As much as some people dislike it, you have to admit most times the chances of getting taken, without due care, is very good even at face to face sales. With, of course, the exception of at least you get to do the touchy feely thing with a face to face. But, with the limited and out of production models made, without places like E-bay, HO yard sale and others, you could spend a lifetime looking for that certain item that with these sites, if you watch, pretty soon someone will have one for sale. Then of course you have to hope someone else doesn't want it worse than you. That's an auction. But the information. THAT's were the internet really shines.
Todd,
I have been both a buyer and a seller on ebay since its very early days-- though mostly a buyer of late. In over a decade of buying I can honestly say that I have only been out-and-out defrauded once. By someone running a sort of "pump-n-dump" (pump-n-switch) scheme where they sold a bunch of small stuff to gain reputation and then switched to "selling" big stuff and absconding with the money. Fortunately for me I was only out about $15-20 bucks.
I have been less than enthusiastic about a purchase perhaps as many as ten times. Ranging from items I felt were borderline fraudulently listed or having serious omissions in the item's disclosure. Such as a locomotive that was advertised as "nearly new" which arrived looking old and ragged-out and I swear the shell is not the original for the chassis though I could not find markings on both to confirm or reject my assertion-- the shell however does not seem to be constructed in a way that it could have ever satisfactorily been seated on the chassis.
A few more times I have bought something that when received did not seem worth the price, though in retrospect (re-reading the listing) I could not really discern overt deception on the part of the lister (even though it may perhaps have been a "cleverly designed listing" just for that intent).
One time I bought an *empty box* and was quite non-plussed and had some words with the seller, who patiently informed me that an empty box is what he was selling-- a re-reading of the listing confirmed that truth even though I felt he had not been as clear in his description as he could have been. To his credit he did offer to refund my money, though I chose to accept my fate as a lesson.... education is not (and should not) be free, and why should I make him pay for my oversight?
But overall, in the literally thousands of transactions I've had on ebay, and other similar sites such as "HOYARDSALE", among others, I have been satisfied with my purchases and have gotten a lot of great deals from some good people. Many of whom I keep track of and have bought from again many times. (When you find a good supplier, common sense says you keep 'em).
I've also met my share of bozos, whiners, complainers, dirty-tricksters, and the like. But I use my common-sense and accumulated wisdom to steer clear of them whenever possible. One simple and effective trick I've learned to use if I have any doubts whatsoever is to write them an "innocuous-seeming" "novice-sounding" email ("question about the item") and see how they reply. If they seem gruff or insulting, I stay away. People like that, in my experience, tend to look for problems-- even where they don't exist-- and complicate simple issues unnecessarily. It isn't so much the information content of their reply that I'm concerned about, rather the tone and tenor-- even online it tends to give one a very good sense of whom you're dealing with.
Now to contrast that experience with both my experience in the "face-to-face" "brick-and-mortar" world, and to general experiences in life...
Everything I said above about ebay and online shopping forums, I can quite easily and honestly say about all the other places I've ever shopped as well. While I do agree that there are some different "rules" and modes of operation when shopping online, aside from those, the basic element of exchanging something for currency (i.e. buying something) is as old as the hills and doing it online doesn't make it all that different, only simplifies some aspects and complicates others. What you exchange for convenience (and no tax) is replaced with additional hassles if something needs to be fixed or replaced. But even there, my experiences with the same elements in the "Real World" (brick-n-mortar realm) is similar. Some places will, some won't. Some do it with a smile, some make you leave shaking your head and muttering "Never again..."
Finally, a last thought about money spent versus return. This is my own take on things-- yours will most likely vary....
I think you only get to live once. There are many things in this world to experience, including some bad things. Every day you live you make choices and "vote" with your wallet and/or take chances when you buy things-- even if you go to a restaurant you run the risk of being served "bad" (unappealing) food or even a good restaurant just having a bad night. Depending on the circumstances, that could cost you $30-50-100 bucks or more. Even if you "have words" with the waiter or manager, how many people *really* refuse to pay or haggle over the price in such circumstances? More likely (my opinion) they simply gross a bit and then shake it off as a "life experience". Same thing in many situations-- you try something, it isn't quite what you expected-- but you simply shake it off.
And of course the reverse is true-- sometimes you take a chance-- a risk-- and it turns into a great reward. Like finding a rare book you want and picking it up for a song. Or not being sure about an item's description and deciding to "take a chance" and it turns out to be a brass locomotive (or whatever) that thrills you. Or trying a little hole-in-the-wall restaurant somewhere that turns out to have fabulous food. Or going on a blind date, or buying your brother's friend's old car-- or whatever it is-- and it turns out great.
Life is full of experiences and most of them "cost" something somehow. Shopping online is no different, in either respect. Whenever I feel "underwhelmed" by an online purchase, I often chalk it up to "life experience" (depending on the real amount of course) and just suck up and get over it. People fear what they don't know. Buying stuff online is no different. And really, in the end, it is no different.
My of course.
Brakie- Yup, just like the old #11 Xacto blade.
John- Nah, I didn't take it as busting on me. I just type the way I talk but the voice inflections aren't there. I must say though, reading your last post sounds like me talking coherently. Like I said, very much my same feelings.
As for being "taken" on the bay, I haven't purchased near what many have but I have never been what I would call ripped off. Once, there was a slight dispute over the use of the description "Great Condition" and like you said I took it as a lesson, though not an expensive one, on what Great Condition means when coupled with the word "vintage" That means "repairs needed after removing from carton as it has been broken and the Elmers glue did not hold the car together, so it will fall apart in your hands. Of course it's pictured together so you can see what it will look like after you repair it. Why that side you ask? Well, you always take a picture showing the good side". I'm just a bit more careful when I read the description and bid accordingly to what I feel it is worth. Generally, like you said, the tones presented kinda clue me in, right or wrong, as to if I want to deal with this vendor. Once I received the wrong car and the seller, after a cordial note from me, sent me the right one. No additional postage, of course, and told me to keep the mistake. I can't complain. Once or twice I took a chance on an item and my fears were realized, but I bid according and I realized going in it was a gamble and did not complain, in fact they received good feedback because I got what I bought. I don't generally bid high on much of anything as I am lucky to have an extremely well equipped hobby shop nearby and it is discount priced to boot so naturally I only bid on things I can't get there or are substantially cheaper. After all, we'd all like to save some bucks for other stuff. Others aren't as fortunate I realize. But, these things would not be possible as easily without the internet.
On the flipside, I purchased a loco at a train show a year or so ago and that item though inexpensive was shown to work and guaranteed. Yes it worked when I got home, but only shortly. Removing the shell I find it too was also a piece of.... Well, you know. You can get broken axle gears to work if you carefully glue them back. But only long enough to get it sold. Cheap loco, what did I expect? So face to face doesn't always make it safer. I guess if you disassemble every purchase...
I will say the only problem I have with the internet is there is so much to look at, be it model trains or 1:1 trains, I get to spending too much time and don't get anything else done!