I have started running my HO Con Cor passenger cars again. They are the 70 foot Santa Fe Valley Flyer smooth side cars. I have added weight, Kadee pocket couplers with #29 and all metal wheel sets. I retired them a year ago because I could not keep them coupled. I used glue to hold the top of the pockets on, and there was to much movement and they would come uncoupled sometime.
I have redone the coupler boxes and added screws to hold the lid on. OK, they are fixed and off I went! For a while? Took a few hours of run time for the problem to crop up.
Now for some reason the second car derails. I run two express Baggage cars and one Post offices car at the front of the train. No matter which one is the second car from the engine, it derails? It is at the same spot of the track, but why the second car? All couplers move freely.
I have been using either a PK E-7 or a PK Erie Built, both have long shank couplers.
Wheels are in gauge,and the wheel flanges look straight across when I check them on the side.
Any ideas what to check next?
Not stumped often, Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
Try turning the car around and see if the same end still derails.
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Is it a problem with the draft gear? I have noticed that some cars like to pick out any sort of flaw in the tracks at the front of a train
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I have some questions to ask:
Marlon
See pictures of the Clinton-Golden Valley RR
Hi Ken,
I too have Con-Cor passenger cars. They derailed all the time, I would also like to add that they are the 85 foot aluminum corrugated side VIA coaches.
The trucks on my coaches were mounted quite rigid. When loosening the screw underneath the body that held the truck in place there still was no sideways rocking motion. To fix this issue the truck was removed, a 1/4 inch new steel drill bit was twisted by hand gouging out the hole where the screw sits on the truck that attaches it to the body of the car. Basically I reamed out the plastic from the truck where the head of the screw is. This now gives the trucks sideways motion and no more derailments.
Hope it helps, it done the trick for me.
Frank
"If you need a helping hand, you'll find one at the end of your arm."
Ken,
I also have 4 ConCor HO passenger cars that I "retired" due to derailments. When I brought this problem up to the owner of our LHS (I got them from another store in Evansville), he said the trucks were defective and should be replaced. I have not done so yet, and will try the fix Frank described above. If that doesn't do it I'll replace the trucks at some point; I have other fish to fry at the moment. So apparently ConCor has a reputation for bad trucks.
cudaken I have started running my HO Con Cor passenger cars again. They are the 70 foot Santa Fe Valley Flyer smooth side cars. I have added weight, Kadee pocket couplers with #29 and all metal wheel sets. I retired them a year ago because I could not keep them coupled. I used glue to hold the top of the pockets on, and there was to much movement and they would come uncoupled sometime. I have redone the coupler boxes and added screws to hold the lid on. OK, they are fixed and off I went! For a while? Took a few hours of run time for the problem to crop up. Now for some reason the second car derails. I run two express Baggage cars and one Post offices car at the front of the train. No matter which one is the second car from the engine, it derails? It is at the same spot of the track, but why the second car? All couplers move freely. I have been using either a PK E-7 or a PK Erie Built, both have long shank couplers. Wheels are in gauge,and the wheel flanges look straight across when I check them on the side. Any ideas what to check next? Not stumped often, Cuda Ken
Ahhh, the Con-Cor Second Car Derailment Syndrome!
Ken, I had the same problem at one time. My reasoning is that the first passenger car, coupled to the engine will be "pulled" by the sheer weight of the engine and will not derail, but the second car is pulled by the lightweight passenger car in front of it and is prone to derailment because of imbalancing which is typical of Con Cor cars. The rest of the passenger cars don't derail because there are few external forces exerting pressure on them, so they just follow suit. Didn't matter which car was second in the string, it derailed.
I own a set of 72' New York Central cars. I was desperate for a set of two tone gray NYC passenger cars but couldn't find any 60' shorties and my 32" radius curves wouldn't support 85' cars very well. So, running out of options, I purchased the Con Cor cars.
Out of the box, they were awful performers. The couplers were truck mounted, and the trucks were plastic, held in place by pressure mounted plastic pins that snap into the underside of the car body through the center of the truck. The second car derailed on every curve and while crossing every turnout.
My first move was to order #505 coupler conversion kits from Kadee. These kits are designed to remedy the derailment problems associated with Con Con cars. Didn't work.
So, I purchased metal trucks and replaced the plastic trucks. That was a real effort because I had to build plastic bolsters and cement them to the undersides of the cars and then mount the trucks on the bolsters with metal screws. (I think da *** is on the right track with his comments on the need for lateral movement with the trucks - - - it took a lot of fine tuning to get the trucks to ride the rails smoothly and without a tendency to derail).
Next, I installed Jay-Bee coupler pads, designed for Con-Cor passenger cars, and Kadee #38 couplers. Don Gibson had suggested this approach based upon his experience with Con Cor derailments. The Jay-Bee coupler pads were a miracle solution in my opinion.
The combination of metal trucks and Jay-Bee coupler pads, along with Kadee #38 couplers, completely solved the problem. No more derailments, none.
This proved to be an expensive, but effective, solution.
It has been a couple of years since making these modifications and it was worth it.
Hope this helps.
Rich
Alton Junction
Very interesting discussion. I have two HO scale Con-Cor smooth side Illinois Central passenger cars that I just permanently retired as shelf queens because I could never keep them on the track, no matter what I tried -- extra weight, different trucks, metal wheelsets, body mounted couplers, etc.
OTOH, a Con-Cor heavyweight passenger car has never given me any problems. Go figure.
I was beginning to think running the IC roadname way out west was a jinx.
The early Con_cor trucks were very soft plastic. The wheel set could cut a slot in the side frame allowing the side frame to touch the rail head. Just one more place to look!
Wow, thanks for all the answers folks.
richhotrain Ahhh, the Con-Cor Second Car Derailment Syndrome!
Rich, that made me feel better, knowing I am not the only one that has the problem.
The car derails on a straight section going to a turn, not in the turn and it is running into a turnout. In other words it is coming in from the end that does not have the blades. Car is 10 inch long and weighs 6.5/8 onces so I am a little over weight, I mean the car! Trucks do have side to side rocking. I have modified the mounting points on some of the cars, I hate the plastic push pins.
Jeff, when I turn the car back wards it changes where it derails. With that in mind I flipped the wheel sets over, but it still derails.
Rich, I made my own mounting pads for the Kadee pockets.
Now what is odd, is when I first redone the bad pockets the cars tracked great, except one of the Baggage cars, so I pulled it. I got about 5 hours out of them before this problem pooped up. I guess I could have worn out the sides of the trucks. But, the wheel flanges still look straight across to me when I check them.
Tonight, I will run them again and get up close to where they derail and see if I can see what is happing.
Thanks again for all your time and answers.
Ken
richhotrain My reasoning is that the first passenger car, coupled to the engine will be "pulled" by the sheer weight of the engine and will not derail, but the second car is pulled by the lightweight passenger car in front of it and is prone to derailment because of imbalancing which is typical of Con Cor cars. The rest of the passenger cars don't derail because there are few external forces exerting pressure on them, so they just follow suit. Didn't matter which car was second in the string, it derailed. Rich
My reasoning is that the first passenger car, coupled to the engine will be "pulled" by the sheer weight of the engine and will not derail, but the second car is pulled by the lightweight passenger car in front of it and is prone to derailment because of imbalancing which is typical of Con Cor cars. The rest of the passenger cars don't derail because there are few external forces exerting pressure on them, so they just follow suit. Didn't matter which car was second in the string, it derailed.
This is a real puzzler of a problem. I agree that ConCor cars have cheap trucks but even that makes it hard to explain this weird sequence of problems. I agree with Rich that as you state the facts the cause is likely to be somewhere in the relationship of the first car to the locomotive, assuming the first car is also one of these ConCors. If there is not enough side play in that initial coupling the first car may stay on the rails but the sideways force may felt mainly by the second car. Sort of like how a locomotive may have a minimum radius but may not be able to be coupled to a train through that radius due to overhang of the rear coupler on curves.
From a pure trouble shooting aspect: What if there is no locomotive pulling the train, what if you are pulling it with a string or it is just rolling on its own through the curve? Same problem? If so, my theory is incorrect.
What happens if an ordinary boxcar is the first car after the locomotive? Is it still the (now) third car that details? The only other guess (and this is also based on some familiarity with Con Cor passenger cars) is that sometimes the floors have a subtle warp in the casting, which again might transmit the skewed force into the following cars.
Sometimes there is just something goofy about the design interactions of a given car. Another example is the classic B&O hopper that Athearn sold for years. Some strange combination of weight, center of gravity, support for the trucks, and placement of couplers spelled trouble.
Dave Nelson
cudaken Wow, thanks for all the answers folks. richhotrain Ahhh, the Con-Cor Second Car Derailment Syndrome! Rich, that made me feel better, knowing I am not the only one that has the problem. The car derails on a straight section going to a turn, not in the turn and it is running into a turnout. In other words it is coming in from the end that does not have the blades. Car is 10 inch long and weighs 6.5/8 onces so I am a little over weight, I mean the car! Trucks do have side to side rocking. I have modified the mounting points on some of the cars, I hate the plastic push pins. Jeff, when I turn the car back wards it changes where it derails. With that in mind I flipped the wheel sets over, but it still derails. Rich, I made my own mounting pads for the Kadee pockets. Now what is odd, is when I first redone the bad pockets the cars tracked great, except one of the Baggage cars, so I pulled it. I got about 5 hours out of them before this problem pooped up. I guess I could have worn out the sides of the trucks. But, the wheel flanges still look straight across to me when I check them. Tonight, I will run them again and get up close to where they derail and see if I can see what is happing. Thanks again for all your time and answers. Ken
If you made your own mounting pads, that should be fine. There is nothing magic about Jay Bee pads other than they were made specifically to replace the truck mounted couplers.
As to the couplers, I did a lot of experimenting before I settled on the Kadee #38.
Just out of curiosity, what type of metal trucks are you using and how are they mounted? I spent a lot of time and "engineering" of the truck mounts to get it right. The problem with replacing the plastic Con Cor trucks is that you need to come up with a replacement for the plastic push pins as well.
Report back to us after you have looked closer at your situation.
As far as derailments on curves bersus derailments on turnouts, they are one and the same as far as I am concerned. There are are three types of track in my experience: curves, turnouts and straight sections. Nothing derails or uncouples on straight sections of track. But the same cannot be said for curves and turnouts. That is where all of the problems occur.
I too have a number of ConCor heavy and streamline passnger cars ( all 72') Did have some problems but all of mine have been solved easily with just weight, other than one heavyweight coach. They are all a little higher in weight than the NMRA standard and are working great. The one heavyweight just does not want to be pushed through a couple of turnouts. Still working on that one.
Johnboy out.....
from Saskatchewan, in the Great White North..
We have met the enemy, and he is us............ (Pogo)
I feel your pain! The cheap-o Rapidos on my Con-Cor smoothside passenger set (N scale) uncouple constantly! I'll be replacing them all with MT trucks & couplers in a week or two, until then they stay boxed. What a headache..... but buck up! There's always someone around to sell you parts for something that should have been built better to begin with! (sarcasm intended)
Happy Holidays though :)
Again, thanks for all the answers. Little shocked to see so many I will add. Tonight, I just let them site, they do that great! I have other problems I am working on.
Rich, all but one car has there stock truck's, but they all have metal wheel sets, either stock or Protos. One of the express cars does have aftermarket truck's, when I opened it at K-10 Model Trains car only had 1 truck! There is QC to be proud of!
Fas as mounting the Truck's, I will post some pictures latter. Some of the newer cars came with screws, that screwed into a round standing up weight in the car body. As the pins broke or fell out I used self tapping screws with wide shoulders. They rock side to side and back and fourth. Some of the cars in the rear have this set up and track well.
Next I will try swapping trucks from the rear cars that have no problem.
Rich, do the # 38 have a .505 shank like the # 29 I used?
If I can get 32 Tyco Old Dutch Hoppers to track right, these should not beat me!
Cuda Ken
cudaken Again, thanks for all the answers. Little shocked to see so many I will add. Tonight, I just let them site, they do that great! I have other problems I am working on. Rich, all but one car has there stock truck's, but they all have metal wheel sets, either stock or Protos. One of the express cars does have aftermarket truck's, when I opened it at K-10 Model Trains car only had 1 truck! There is QC to be proud of! Fas as mounting the Truck's, I will post some pictures latter. Some of the newer cars came with screws, that screwed into a round standing up weight in the car body. As the pins broke or fell out I used self tapping screws with wide shoulders. They rock side to side and back and fourth. Some of the cars in the rear have this set up and track well. Next I will try swapping trucks from the rear cars that have no problem. Rich, do the # 38 have a .505 shank like the # 29 I used? If I can get 32 Tyco Old Dutch Hoppers to track right, these should not beat me! Cuda Ken
Cuda Ken,
I missed something in your original post. When you said all metal wheel sets, I mistakenly read it to say metal trucks. If your passenger cars still have the original plastic trucks, I would place my money on the trucks as the problem. Intuitively, most people figure that faulty trucks cause derailments and poor track work cause uncouplings. But, in my experience, a lot of unwanted uncoupling problems are caused by faulty trucks or, in some instances, the wrong couplers.
If I were you, I would replace the plastic trucks with metal tracks. Those Con Cor plastic trucks are incapable of tracking through turnouts or curved track under 40" radius. They are too light and often out of gauge and they wind up pulling cars in all kinds of weird directions causing uncouplings.
As far as the couplers go, my #38 couplers are 19/64 inch medium centerset shank. These were recommended to me by others who had similar problems with their Con Cor passenger cars. The #29 couplers are long 25/64 overset shank. Kadee makes the world's best couplers, so quality is not an issue. But, soemtimes, the worng coupler may be the culprit with unwanted uncouplings. I am not prepared to blame the #29 coupler for your problems, but it is an overset and it is long. The #38 coupler is shorter than the #38 and it is centerset, so it is better balanced in my view for dealing with the Con Cor passenger car.
Incidentally, although you have added weight to the cars, I have not added any additional weight because I felt that there was no need for it.
I look forward to any photos that you can provide. Stay with it because all problems can be solved once you are prepared to totally focus on each problem. I have become a self-acclaimed expert at solving my own derailment and uncoupling problems because I was so incompetent in building my early layouts, laying trackwork, and running equpment, both engines and rolling stock right out of the box. At one point, after a large investment of time and money, I truly contemplated abandoning the hobby. But, I stuck with it and now I have minimized these problems, although I do still have an occasional derailment but, rarely, an unwanted uncoupling problem.
I pulled the first 3 cars, 2 express baggage and one postal car and they are tracking great. I have been running them for a hour now. Now the question is because the trucks are bad on the other cars, or is it due to less weight being pulled?
I did go by K-10 Model Trains which is open to 10:00 PM on Christmas Eve! Picked up some PK 36 wheels sets (the three cars are still running the stock wheels) and see if that helps.
while I was at K-10 Model Trains I did look at IHC trucks, none looked right far as mounting points off set.
Will up date later.
Merry Christmass