Roger is very giving of his time, loan of expensive tools, and willingness to spend entire days helping beginners learn to trim turn outs and lay their yards out, etc.>P< He's a great ambassador for the hobby and has even been known to quip that he works directly across the street from our local LHS and "he simply walks his paycheck across the street" when he receives it.
Please, everyone, be careful about jumping to conclusions when we post and instead pose a question to be sure that any comments or opinions posted are the whole story.>P< I doubt Roger would bother to defend himself, but I feel like I owe him at least, that much.>P< No disrespect meant on my part either. Just a suggestion to pose a question...
Raised on the Erie Lackawanna Mainline- Supt. of the Black River Transfer & Terminal R.R.
jwhitten and I'll bet the owner isn't as worried about his bottom line. I bet its probably a pretty nice place?
That's just it. It is a happy place because he LOVES what he is doing. the building is not the fanciest around---not in a great retail area--but he gets customers.
It is about what you love to do---not in it just for the living--which it certainly is not good at providing but there he is----we joke that what he needs in there is the ol' pot bellied stove and the perpetual game of checkers--
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There is something to the idea of Brand Loyalty here---if one loves what they are doing it does show in how you treat you customers---the company I work for has demonstrated that by a growing customer base---people hear about the services we offer and how we treat our clients and ---BOOM---up goes that client base. It also shows in customer retention----there are a lot of LHS's that come and go but the better ones have a loyal customer base--hence they do retain their customer base----sounds circular but there it is--
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
Lee
C.P.C.S.Here is my opinion, I hope I don't offend any of ya'll. LHS:Friendly service-Internet:Unless you know em , you don't know if there nice. LHS:All the trains are inspected and run-Internet:Not always true LHS:You can ask questions,and they can give you a professional awnser-Internet:Not always LHS:You can ask to see the train and make your descision easier-Internet:Not so LHS:The Hobby Shops have to buy there merchandise so it costs more-Internet:On the Internet people are selling,they may have not even bought it. That's my view. That's how it runs in my town. Sadly my LHS is losing the fight to stay in buisness. Most kids,teens,and parents don't even care about that stuff. I really hope they don't shut down :(
Here is my opinion, I hope I don't offend any of ya'll.
LHS:Friendly service-Internet:Unless you know em , you don't know if there nice.
LHS:All the trains are inspected and run-Internet:Not always true
LHS:You can ask questions,and they can give you a professional awnser-Internet:Not always
LHS:You can ask to see the train and make your descision easier-Internet:Not so
LHS:The Hobby Shops have to buy there merchandise so it costs more-Internet:On the Internet people are selling,they may have not even bought it.
That's my view.
That's how it runs in my town. Sadly my LHS is losing the fight to stay in buisness. Most kids,teens,and parents don't even care about that stuff. I really hope they don't shut down :(
None of these descriptions of LHS's are true everywhere, or even, in my experience living in cities around the US, mostly true.
RRcrossingI know this is a debate that has gone on for years but I'm afraid that the gap between them both is reaching a point that the LHS cannot compete at.
It reached that point several years ago, if not earlier.
Blazzin Ok.. how about the end-game, when your local hobby store has closed down.. and if fact now the whole strip mall has gone down in value.. and now.. the sign reads "Exotic Dancers"
Ok.. how about the end-game, when your local hobby store has closed down.. and if fact now the whole strip mall has gone down in value.. and now.. the sign reads "Exotic Dancers"
It presents other modeling opportunities....
By this time, 5 years into this layout, I'm pretty specific about what I need. Yes, I'm putting on an extension to my layout and I'll need track and roadbed, but I don't expect anyone to stock all the items I'm looking for. So, while availability of track, LEDs and so forth is important, I understand that I have to order much of what I buy.
This is where my LHS has an important role to play. I look in the Walthers catalog, send an e-mail to my LHS, and my merchandise shows up a few days later at the shop. If it's a sale item, I get the sale price, and otherwise I get a discount. Admittedly, my LHS is only a few miles from home, and only a short detour on the way home from work, so it's an easy trip. Y'see, the trouble with catalog ordering is that you have to get a bunch of stuff to cover the shipping. When I go through my LHS, I can order one little item, and the shipping is free.
My LHS has an in-shop layout (which was actually featured in RMC last year) and handles repairs and upgrades, too. It's a train shop - not a hobby shop. No slot cars or RC planes, just trains. (Oddly, it used to be half trains, half dog-grooming supplies, but that was many years ago.) I don't suppose too many shops inspire the kind of loyalty that this place does, but this is one that's worth keeping around.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
I spent a lot of money on my first couple of engines because I didn't know to look around. These were LHS purchases, or mail order type. Nowadays, I can get two of those engines and a bag of ground foam for the same price...shipped!
The choice is purely mine....continue to pay a lot of money to help Mom & Pop retire comfortably, or I can try to keep my own retirement comfortable and help the guy at the etailer's place to enjoy his retirement. It's a toughy, but I think I have it figgered out.
Ok.. how about the end-game, when your local hobby store has closed down.. and if fact now the whole strip mall has gone down in value.. and now.. the sign reads "Exotic Dancers", is that what you want your kids to read? I support my town by buying in my town and the revenue it generates and helps the local business owners. As far the the LHS as well as any other businesses. concerning inventories.. and making the quatum leap into the internet world.. well thats up to them. Its a competative world.
blownout cylinderjwhittenWhy not cut from the pack and offer actual service instead? Being the cheapest will attract like-minded customers. There is one up here that I go to that is getting an internet store made up as well. They also do starter packages with the glues, brushes, some basic tools, track, and the DC power supply in the starter package as well as the tree making supplies--and booklets on layout design, electronics and layout building. Weathering and custom painting is done there as well as repairs and servicing of new locomotives. I've decided to use his painting service as I can't do too much airbrushing in here--I've only got about 26 locomotives to get done. Not all at once mind. There is also a used/consignment area that also has those items that the collector is looking for The guy is also looking to expand his scratchbuilding department---
jwhittenWhy not cut from the pack and offer actual service instead? Being the cheapest will attract like-minded customers.
There is one up here that I go to that is getting an internet store made up as well. They also do starter packages with the glues, brushes, some basic tools, track, and the DC power supply in the starter package as well as the tree making supplies--and booklets on layout design, electronics and layout building. Weathering and custom painting is done there as well as repairs and servicing of new locomotives. I've decided to use his painting service as I can't do too much airbrushing in here--I've only got about 26 locomotives to get done. Not all at once mind. There is also a used/consignment area that also has those items that the collector is looking for
The guy is also looking to expand his scratchbuilding department---
I'll bet they're doing pretty good. Making a name and a reputation for themselves as a "can do" place. Somewhere you go for more than the latest deal. You go there for advice, service, camaraderie, repairs, painting, etc., and I'll bet the owner isn't as worried about his bottom line. I bet its probably a pretty nice place?
CPCS wrote:
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I take it you haven't visited some shops ran by grumpy old men? Not all hobby shop owners are nice.
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LHS:All the trains are inspected and run-Internet:Not always true.
I have worked part time at 6 hobby shops over the years.4 of the 6 didn't have a test track.The 2 that did had strick guide lines-use the show case locomotives for testing and do not open stock engines!
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I have been in shops where the hired hands didn't know jack about trains.
That's if he/she has that locomotive,car etc in stock.All to sadly many LHS can't stock all newly release items and if you don't pre order from that shop you may miss out..
Actually I can tell a lot from the pictures of a locomotive,freight car etc.That's where the long trusted brand names come into play.
You do know a lot of the on line shops are brick and mortar hobby shops right and like the LHS they to have to buy their stock.Nothing is free.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
jwhittenIt might be nice, for example, to have an LHS that offers weathering as an affordable follow-on service, as an adjunct to buying a new locomotive. Or a package price for certain types of materials, track, roadbed, latex caulking, white glue and paint, for instance. Instead of trying to go toe-to-toe with the Internet and its low-overhead. Why not cut from the pack and offer actual service instead? Being the cheapest will attract like-minded customers.
C.P.C.S.LHS: All the trains are inspected and run
LHS: All the trains are inspected and run
Unfortunately, that's not true at all.
There's only one hobby shop in Tucson, Arizona that has trains -- The Hobby Place in an Ace Hardware store.
They don't have a test track and don't check anything they sell. They don't even know what half the stuff is because none of them are modelers.
The last time I ever went to the trouble of driving an additional four hours to Phoenix, Arizona, none of the hobby shops there had test tracks, either, that I can recall. One of them even has a steadfast policy posted all over the store, "Absolutely NO exchanges or refunds!" Even if you haven't left the store with a purchase, they won't take it back.
Well in my town, my LHS has two model train people and a hobby person. The two train people know alot of stuff about every model OH-O-HO-N-they know em. My LHS also carrys a large amount of HO and N scale trains. They even have a layout so they can show people how the trains work. My town is very small. My LHS is one town away, right across a river actually.Both towns are very small. I recently asked my LHS to fix my Bachman Acela Express. I haven't got it back yet, but I trust their fixing it up. We did have LHS that knew nothing about trains, but they went out of buisness.
I can't say I agree with your list from either point-of-view. I have met, and do a fair amount of business with, really nice and friendly folks over the Internet who, in addition to their great prices, also give out good, useful advice.
I have also met nice and friendly folks at hobby shops who, while nice, don't know diddly about what they're selling-- even if they're a mom & pop. And I can't say I agree or trust that LHS's inspect and run all the equipment before they sell it. And many LHS's take your order and then turn around and buy it online anyway and just charge you a premium for the privilege. So you're still buying sight-unseen and paying more in the process.
If LHS's want to 'win the fight' they have to actually stop being complacent and *do more*. They can't just sit back and be checkout clerks, they need to offer value-add services that matter to the people they service. If they don't, they'll be outta business. There's other places people can shop and get information. So LHS's don't have a corner on that market any more. Though I think it is sad-- the end of an era-- I think it is an unfortunate reality.
IRONROOSTERBDPI went into my LHS the other day after about 20 years and I believe they have the same stuff in there now that was there 20 years ago, and I am not exaggerating that much. Looks like I will be doing most of my shopping on the internet vs LHS, although there are a couple of LHS that I havent gone to yet, so hopefully they have a better and current selection. I love hobby shops with old merchandise. There used to be one in Woodbridge, some of the stock was 30-40 years old. It was like shopping a museum.I would shop more at my LHS except he doesn't carry S. He barely carries HO or N. The trains he carries are mostly Lionel. So it's shows and Internet for me.EnjoyPaul
BDPI went into my LHS the other day after about 20 years and I believe they have the same stuff in there now that was there 20 years ago, and I am not exaggerating that much. Looks like I will be doing most of my shopping on the internet vs LHS, although there are a couple of LHS that I havent gone to yet, so hopefully they have a better and current selection.
I went into my LHS the other day after about 20 years and I believe they have the same stuff in there now that was there 20 years ago, and I am not exaggerating that much.
Looks like I will be doing most of my shopping on the internet vs LHS, although there are a couple of LHS that I havent gone to yet, so hopefully they have a better and current selection.
I love hobby shops with old merchandise. There used to be one in Woodbridge, some of the stock was 30-40 years old. It was like shopping a museum.
I would shop more at my LHS except he doesn't carry S. He barely carries HO or N. The trains he carries are mostly Lionel. So it's shows and Internet for me.
Enjoy
Paul
Used to be? Gee. I finally discover a decent LHS and its already gone. That's a timesaver. Now I can skip straight to the 'missing it' part.
John
Lee 1234A smart local shop picks their battles with the internet. If he doesn't have any local competition for quality airbrushes there is no need to cut the price, he's got all the local walk in traffic locked up. Limited run locomotives he can do pre-sales at a competitive to the internet price, when they arrive sell about list and clearance the remainder out later. I like to go to new shops when I travel and this seems to be the sales model of the survivors. Most shops don't have the funds to be a full service railroad shop much less a full service hobby shop. Those that do can follow a much more traditional sales model.
It might be nice, for example, to have an LHS that offers weathering as an affordable follow-on service, as an adjunct to buying a new locomotive. Or a package price for certain types of materials, track, roadbed, latex caulking, white glue and paint, for instance. Instead of trying to go toe-to-toe with the Internet and its low-overhead. Why not cut from the pack and offer actual service instead? Being the cheapest will attract like-minded customers.
Howard ZaneHey I got few spare moments to jump into this never ending discussion. For the folks who have seen my train set on either Allen Keller videos, magazine articles, and/or in person...be it known that I could not have built this thing or even come close without the help of a LHS and located 80 mles north in Gettysburg, PA. I'd run out of a particular item at 3pm and a call to Tommy Gilbert would result in having the item usually here the next day or as soon as possible as this wonderful proprietor knows fully the meaning of service. Personally I'd go for the excellent service and knowing that the shop will stand behind everything that it sells. There is a value to this that I have found usually worth more than the savings from mail order or internet. I once owned a fairly large shop here in Maryland and in record time I learned the meaning of wholesale, very wholesale, really wholesale, and incredibly wholesale. It is not what the item sells for that keeps the shop alive, it is what it can be purchased for. Of course coupled with great and friendly service, competitive pricing, internet savy, and knowing the meaning of follow-up and a constant fresh appearance helps quite a bit. Also most shops will work with you on pricing if you approach the owner with common sense.
Hey I got few spare moments to jump into this never ending discussion. For the folks who have seen my train set on either Allen Keller videos, magazine articles, and/or in person...be it known that I could not have built this thing or even come close without the help of a LHS and located 80 mles north in Gettysburg, PA. I'd run out of a particular item at 3pm and a call to Tommy Gilbert would result in having the item usually here the next day or as soon as possible as this wonderful proprietor knows fully the meaning of service. Personally I'd go for the excellent service and knowing that the shop will stand behind everything that it sells. There is a value to this that I have found usually worth more than the savings from mail order or internet.
I once owned a fairly large shop here in Maryland and in record time I learned the meaning of wholesale, very wholesale, really wholesale, and incredibly wholesale. It is not what the item sells for that keeps the shop alive, it is what it can be purchased for. Of course coupled with great and friendly service, competitive pricing, internet savy, and knowing the meaning of follow-up and a constant fresh appearance helps quite a bit.
Also most shops will work with you on pricing if you approach the owner with common sense.
I remember the older Gilberts Store in Gettysburg on Steinwher Ave near the Visitors Center. That was one where you walk in, ask for the tiniest little most obscure part that has not made in ten years, and watch him go straight to it after a moment's thought. If you went regularly, you understood that they had new release stuff, slightly older stuff and more stuff. LOL. Something for everyone.
There will never be another Shop like this one after they closed and Tommy Gilberts opened up near the Circle downtown. I visited Tommy Gilberts a few times early on and have memories of a store that was well kept. But that was a very long time ago.
I have a feeling that in 20 years time or less Hobby Shops as we know it might pass away. They will either become Museums or perhaps move online backed by a central supply depot to ship orders.
At the end of the day I must sit down and carefully consider what I will buy at the Shop next month. What will I buy, how will I use it, expense on car gasoline, value of the items purchased and management of pre-orders which may take months to years from product announcement to become reality.
Last year at this time in early winter, I had over 1000 dollars worth of pre-orders that did not start arriving until after April and finally wrapped up before August.
Kinda difficult to be a Shop when your Suppliers are the ones waiting on the special orders, special runs, limited production items etc.
Several years ago I had ordered a expensive diesel set. I took on a second job to pay for this set. I learn that all other roadnames except the one I ordered had errors and new shells will be made and sent out. This was prior to the arrival of the engines.
That was then. Even today I am extremely reluctant to order anything above 70 dollars without having used and cooked the Internet digging up everything I can on these things. Sometimes I have allowed the pre-order deadlines to expire and waiting for Ebay to pick up on these items or future Forum posts by others who have bought the thing.
To make matters worst, I have learned to avoid the 500 dollar (Was 200 a few years ago) pre-order and wait until a few years go by and scoop it off ebay or something for 120. A little patience does pay off. For example the Proto 2-10-2 with DCC and sound is what? 535 retail today at Walthers? I recall getting this same model unlettered for about... 270 after taxes years ago. What is the deal? China is getting expensive me thinks... more on that later.
It seemed to me also that Suppliers, Manufacturers etc will clamp down tight and not let anything other than either a drawing or a sample photo get out. Or others like Rapido will update often with the tiny details and beautiful stories on how things are progressing while one is waiting for something ordered.
Bottom line. I spend a fair amount at the Shop. But sometimes they miss out on some sales to the internet because of this total reliance of limited orders etc. This needs to stop. IHC for example made engines for decades. They made so many generic engines that these products will be around in every shop for decades to come.
But only everyone today prefers to buy the fancy DCC/Sound equippted gem coming due in April of 2010, details to be released. /sarcasm.
One other thing, that Gem might be made in ... Ethiopia because Chinese workers have gotten too expensive and shipping too stacked all over (According to Dry Bulk, Shipping sources)
Finally there is one thing that guides me in train buying. It is dead last after everything else is settled for that month. There are times I would have enjoyed going down to buy train stuff, but had to postpone it.
Yes, this debate has been going on for as long I can remember and so many of the comments are the same. For me I would still be going to my LHS more frequently than I do if they had decent service from the 'train guy' who is just plain rude and grumpy. So when I found myself going in there and avoiding the guy, that was when I decided to shop the internet, buy on Ebay and find another shop. So for me, it was a matter of customer service - and price - that drove me to change.
True, the internet is taking a bite out of many businesses. For instance, when was the last time anyone actually purchased airline tickets from a travel agent or wrote a check to pay the light bill?? It is a sign of the times. However, if the LHS shop has superior customer service then they may not go the way of some other businesses and remain a vital resource for the hobbies and customers they support.
There's never time to do it right, but always time to do it over.....
..... Bob
Beam me up, Scotty, there's no intelligent life down here. (Captain Kirk)
I reject your reality and substitute my own. (Adam Savage)
Resistance is not futile--it is voltage divided by current.
Well, as far as I am concerned, there is no choice. Since I live in Europe but continue to collect US trains and model the BN there is no local hobby store at all. Even if I would switch and model German rr or Swiss rr or Italian (there is no austrian modelling in N scale at all) it still would be a round trip of 50 miles at least. Model railroading in N scale is rare here and I haven't got the space for a realistic H0 layout. So I am buying on the Internet from Walthers directly or a large german dealer.
Things like paints, glue, landscaping materials I buy at a local building materials shop. They are reasonable well stocked and pretty cheap too, only problem sometimes is the small quantities I need. So it's ebay sometimes too.
I wish I had a LHS but it's a 250 mile round trip to get to the nearest one! So it's internet or nada
The advantage of the LHS can be the ability to confirm product quality before you buy. But that only is an advantage if they actually carry it. In general I prefer to support the local folks. But, if you have to order the item, sight unseen, why pay a very significant premium for what after all is rather deficient service.
I know the challenge for the LHS is to avoid having old stock developing cobwebs on his shelf. Covering the cost of the occasional misjudgment is why a premium is justified, but only for in-stock items. Certain slow-moving items should actually be considered advertising. There is a store about 600 miles from here that I always shop at when I visit family. The store carries all sorts of things that my LHS never considers.
On a diverging topic, the current trend of limited runs based on pre-production orders is rather problematic for both store and modeler. Some have ultimately appeared with fairly significant paint or body errors that make them rather less than desirable, especially at premium prices. A manufacturer of a high end plastic diesel first tried to pretend that one paint scheme was absolutely perfect. Then, when confronted in person with photographic proof of two major mistakes, basically indicated he neither cared nor wanted to know. I can't rely on him not making similar mistakes with future projects.
I can live with minor faults, but these were both highly visible errors. One I will attempt to correct without a complete repaint, the other I think I am stuck with. But this sort of experience is why I am reluctant to pre-order anything, and can be a challenge for the LHS too. Get it right and they will fly off the shelves; get it wrong and think of molasses.
What's a local hobby shop? It is either Internet of mail order for me, no other choices, although my new job has me only 3 1/2 hour drive from Denver (Cabosse Hobbies) and the wife has family and friends there.
Jim, Modeling the Kansas City Southern Lines in HO scale.
jecorbettIt's like the difference between a supermarket and a convenience store.
Thats a good analogy. Supermarket has great prices and everything you could want. Convenience store has what you want now, but only a few items,and really expensive .
The LHS and the e-tailer fill different needs. Yes, can get better pricing online, but if you need it now, you don't want to wait 5 business days to get it. I go to the LHS for the replenishable stuff, but most of my major purchases are made online. If I see a good deal at the LHS, I might buy there also.
It's like the difference between a supermarket and a convenience store. The supermarket saves you money, the convenience store saves you time. You have to decide which is more valuable.