I know this is a debate that has gone on for years but I'm afraid that the gap between them both is reaching a point that the LHS cannot compete at. I recently was looking for an airbrush. My LHS had the model listed for $127 and I purchased it on the internet with free shipping for $72. I thought a great deal about it before buying it. I was going to ask my LHS if they could give me a better deal but felt embarassed to say what I could buy it for on the internet.
Yes there are those that say the LHS is ireplacable but I ask you why???.....For the knowledge they posses about hobbies?...but what about this very forum we are on right now. I can ask any question that comes to mind and get a response from thousands of knowledgable modelers. As far as selection goes there are a ridiculous amount of vendors on the internet that carry every thing from couplers to trees to buildings.
When it comes to price it seems they can't match the prices on the internet. I see some people mention loyalty when it comes to paying more for items at the LHS but how much of a mark up is the price for loyalty??? 10%....25%.... If we were talking about the purcahse of a car wouldn't we do our due diligence and shop around for the best price in town?? Then why not the same when we purchase a loco or a structure kit.
Please do not misinterpret this post as an attack on the LHS. I am quite guilty of the occasional quick trip to my LHS that turns into an hour or two wandering, looking, touching, talking and buying. But how long will this institution remain especially in these difficult times when we are all trying to make our dollar go further then ever??
We have a local hobby shop 70 miles away in Tucson, Arizona within an Ace Hardware store whose prices compare very favorably with Internet dealers when you balance their sales tax against the shipping and handling fees of the on-line shops, so I purchase from The Hobby Place as much as possible. I just wish they were truly more "local."
Any hobby shop that can offer standard merchandise at >=20% below MSRP (and they DO exist, there are 3 of them within a 30-minute drive from my house) and offers decent customer service has a fighting chance. Those with discounts who do both Internet and Brick n' Mortar are in an even better position - example: MB Klein. Nowadays it just takes a lot more business saavy to keep one's costs low enough to charge competitive prices and remain profitable, than in pre-Internet days.
-Ken in Maryland (B&O modeler, former CSX modeler)
I have a really good train hobbyshop about 7 miles from my house. I live in one state, the shop is in an adjoining state. A hop on the interstate makes it a quick trip, and I visit there quite often, and I make many purchases there. He will also take orders and mail it. However, I still use internet places for some items because they have products that the local shop doesn't carry, or have in stock, and I weigh availability against fast delivery. I would guess one third of my diesel fleet is from the LHS, the rest mail order, mostly again because of availability in my road name.
There is also a second shop in the other state that I use because often he has what I want and he will mail it to me. In fact, have only visited his shop twice that I remember in 10 years. A phone call or an email does it.
So for me, price is second to getting the product I want as soon as possible.
Bob
Perhaps the online competition is why I'm 65 miles from the nearest hobby shop. There used to be 2 25 miles away but one has dropped trains and gone to coins and RC stuff and the other closed. I probably wouldn't be in the hobby without the online retailers. The prices are good, but sometimes it's worth the extra $$ to actually see what you are buying before you make the purchase.
I have several LHS near me, but I see what/who has what I am looking for. If I need something small (detail stuff, trees, etc) LHS (local hobby store). Something like a deal on track, boxcars, etc.....internet.
I asked a LHS owner if he would price match, he said no but would sell me the items tax free. No way he could match what the internet price was.
I like both opitions. The local guys, and the internet.
"Rust, whats not to love?"
Food for thought..If I am going to buy 1 or 2 freight cars or if I need 1 or 2 switches and other such small orders I will buy locally since he is willing to work with me on prices and by the time shipping is added I am not saving all that much.Larger orders goes internet where I can save the most money..
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
Usually I like to shop at the Hobby shop. There are two near me and both are first class. Taken together when considering availability items, it is like one big shop to me.
The Internet however is a powerful force when a price savings exceed discount, taxes and whatever. I dont bother to ask either shop to price match the internet. I just buy whatever is available that week or month and be done with it. Even if it means going onto Ebay.
I dont know how many more years we will enjoy hobby shops in the traditional sense. Until then we go buy train stuff and not worry about longevity.
Sometimes the net bites hard. I once bought one bottle of safeweld. Two ounces I believe from the factory. 9 bucks.
Every time I need a bottle I buy three from the Hobby shop to stock up these days.
the internet has done to the local hobby shop what walmart has done to the mom and pop grocery and it is a continuing downward spiral with both good and bad aspects for the consumer. kind of a love/hate relationship.
looks like the lhs is in the same boat as the little grocery. a good place to go when you need fresh bread and milk or you run out of something but the big guys still get the bulk of the sales.
would i shop at the local hobby shop if they had what i wanted and could be competitive on the pricing? sure i would but it ain't going to happen around here and after all this hobby is all about me.
once in a great while i do get a chance to go to a fully stocked model railroad retailer like several in chicago and one in denver but that is a rare event. there are still a couple of wannabe train stores in the st louis area but i probably have more stuff in my basement than they have on their shelves.
grizlump
Myself, I prefer the touchy-feely about buying. If I can't have it in my hands at the time of purchase, I get antsy about it. If it's a locomotive, will it run etc etc etc & for me, living in Canada, there's also the duty on it as well, unless I go pick it up myself then it seems to be duty free, not sure why! Even eBay & Kijiji, I prefer to pick it up, even if it means driving for an hour to do so.
I have bought a few things online, from Walthers direct & Lark-Spur line here in Ontario, I try to figure out how much it's going to cost to ship it then decide if it's worth it. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.
Just my 2 cents
Gordon
Brought to you by the letters C.P.R. as well as D&H!
K1a - all the way
If the LHS doesn't have model rr material, little eyes don't see it, little voices don't ask for, thus parents don't buy as their child has shown no interest. The hobby looses its future.
I try to buy some at the LHS, but the only one within an hour isn't particularly well stocked for variety and the owner is only moderately knowledgable. When I went to the one further away they were under construction (internally) so hard to judge, will have to go that way again someday.
Just a thought.
The only problem with this strategy is that you are taking the most profitable transactions away from your LHS. Keep doing that and it won't be there anymore.
I have taken to buying very little on the internet, mostly out of production items on eBay. I want my LHS there for the times I suddenly discover I need a bottle of glue or paint or one more screw to complete a project. Do I leave a little $$$ on the table? Yes I do but I consider it to be a wise investment.
If you are fortunate like me and several others on this forum, you live in the Illinois counties across the river from St. Louis MO. Maryville Illinois has the simply wonderful K-10 model trains and hobbies. 4000 sq ft layout, days like today when the place was packed with kids and parents running trains, RC race track and race evenings during the Summer. Prices that are comparable to the Internet and sometimes way better, like last weeks special on Kato SD40's ($60) and P2K Blue Boxes and Atlas Classic ($50) This hobby shop thrives by offering very fair pricing, but more importantly, by getting folks in the door. The layout is huge, but the store is small, but it packs a great inventory with lots of selection. Plus all the little nitty gritty things that you need to pick up to complete a weekend project.
If any of you subscribe to Railroad Model Craftsman, take a look at the Digitrax advert in the December issue. That's me and the boys, proudly standing at K-10's. If you are ever in the St. Louis area, it is well worth a visit.
Simon Modelling CB&Q and Wabash See my slowly evolving layout on my picturetrail site http://www.picturetrail.com/simontrains and our videos at http://www.youtube.com/user/MrCrispybake?feature=mhum
skagitrailbird I want my LHS there for the times I suddenly discover I need a bottle of glue or paint or one more screw to complete a project. Do I leave a little $$$ on the table? Yes I do but I consider it to be a wise investment.
If thats all you're buying at your LHS,then you are doing them a disservice. Put your money where your mouth is and go and buy 2 engines at full MRSP. Say a BLI steam engine for $349 each. Then and only then can you feel good about yourself. Now do this 3 or 4 times a year. I bought this same engine for $199, but I'm afraid you cannot do that and still live by your principles. I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but a realist.
Now don't get me wrong, I like my LHS. He gives me 20% discount everyday. I think the big question is, would the hobby continue to thrive if all of the LHS were gone and it was internet order only. I don't really know. It would be interesting to find out.
If you are fortunate like me and several others on this forum, you live in the Illinois counties across the river from St. Louis MO. Maryville Illinois has the simply wonderful K-10 model trains and hobbies.
Simon,
I have been meaning to drive over there. Maryville should be almost as close as Harters in Belleville.
Jeff
skagitrailbird The only problem with this strategy is that you are taking the most profitable transactions away from your LHS. Keep doing that and it won't be there anymore. I have taken to buying very little on the internet, mostly out of production items on eBay. I want my LHS there for the times I suddenly discover I need a bottle of glue or paint or one more screw to complete a project. Do I leave a little $$$ on the table? Yes I do but I consider it to be a wise investment.
Roger,There's two ways of looking at that and one question.
Sure,I can fork over $95.00 ea for a locomotive after he knocks off $4.00 and I usually buy 2.
I can go the internet route.
Let's do the math.
2x $95.00=$190.00 plus gas(52 mile round trip call it $10.00).
2x $70.00= $140.00 plus $8.65 for shipping=$148.65.
The difference is $51.35.
Of course I could buy 1 this month and another next month-if its still in stock or available from the distributor.
However,I have a limited hobby budget..
Which is the better deal?
I used to buy at my LHS but they went out of business 5 years ago and now the only one is HobbytownUSA, not a very good replacement. They just don't carry a lot of what I want and am forced to go to online dealers. They only stock Atlas track and very little selection at that. I do go there at least every other week and buy some small items like paints, glue and some detail parts. I want them to survive and they probably will but not from model railroaders alone. The good old days are gone for the model railroad hobby in most towns and smaller cities.
Just my thoughts.
Life is what happens while you are making other plans!
Years ago, I resided in Massachusetts. There was a GREAT LHS in the central part of the state. I and my friends spent much $$$ there over the years, plastic models, rockets, R/C and finally trains. Owner was a modeler himself and had much to do with the local club layout. Both he and his wife were super people.
Well, time goes on and the owner decides to retire. Too bad, but nobody works forever. The shop was taken over by a fellow who appeared simply to be in it for the money. Moved to an out of the way location, and as I recall, even cancelled the long standing ad in MR.
Asking questions was like pulling teeth. Personal service disappeared as well.
Soon thereafter, I left the area and haven't been back. Still in business? Don't know, don't care.
There are big box stores locally for all manner of wood, paint and adhesives. That REALLY BIG store has the same, as well as decent vehicles, from time to time, among other things.
I find the web to be well able to serve my other needs. If there's a question, that's what phones are for.
hobby shops are great, but i also buy online. my regular supplies i buy at a local craft store. it is fun to walk into a hobby shop and just look around. I have a favorite shop and i do buy things from them like models or odds and ends. when it comes to a large priced item, i do shop around on the internet & find the best price. i would hate to see my model train store close. so, i do my part and give them my buisness when i can; but with a mortgage and a family budget, if i can save a bunch of money buying a big ticket item online, i have to.
I get my stuff from both, depending what I want.
If I want to buy locomotives or detail parts, I rely on Internet sources. The local hobby shop simply cannot stock the variety of stuff I'm looking for.
But if I need small things like paint, brushes, couplers, scratch building materials, or there is a piece of rolling stock that catches my eye, I'll buy from the local hobby shop.
If your LHS does not stock basic items like track, etc. and can only offer to order these basic items for you, that negates the best selling point of the LHS. Offering to order it is not a competitive service these days. I can do that myself!
I think if you are going to be in a brick and mortar type business, you have to invest in your business to make it worthwhile for the customer to seek out your shop. "Why should I stock it when it does not sell?" is what I hear. That seems like an attempt to blame the customer (the one who is trying to buy from the LHS?!) for the situation. The answer is that you stock it so you CAN sell it. Most items will keep for a while on the shelf. If it's really not moving, have a sale to get things moving for goodness sakes! And I am talking about the very basics of model railroading here, not some high-dollar esoteric item.
So I'm there with cash in hand but often no product in stock. That scenario makes it all a self-fulfilling prophecy. They don't have it, so I have to buy it over the internet. The lose the business. They don't sell it. With shipping charges, the internet is often the same price as the LHS. But the internet vendor HAS the item ready to go today. If I'm looking for rail joiners or a piece of track and that's too much to stock what real choice do I have other than to order it over the internet?
I've seen this with several types of businesses. They just ignore the internet competition and keep doing things the way they always have done them since the 1960s. And then sadly, they eventually shut their doors. I hate to see this happen.
MB Klein figured out a way to make a buck in this business. With a little effort, others can do it too.
This is a discussion that will never go away! :) I've probably visited 80% of the LHS in my city; some I go to often, others I don't bother anymore. What seals the deal for me is selection and sale prices.
I visited a LHS about 30 miles from me for the first time this week just to see their items (I'm an N-scaler). The fact that they had no code 55 track merchandise was a huge turnoff for me (even the salesman there wasn't too familiar with it - could you believe that?). On the other hand, they had the new-generation Bachmann Amfleet cars for $22.47 each, and checking the online price on my web-equipped Blackberry phone yielded about $23 so I bought three of the cars there at the store.
Another LHS in my area has an extremely disorganized model RR inventory, but if you sift through what they have, you'll find out that most of their stuff is below retail.
I can count on one hand the times I've bought from online hobby shops (one of them was from Wm. K. Walthers directly for some of their container cars that they were blowing out for mega-cheap). I'm not reluctant to buy online, but being and N-scaler for just the past 3 years and an HO scaler for over 25 years before that, I have a much larger number of rolling stock in N than I did in HO!
Honestly, most of that was acquired through swap meets and befriending a local eBay seller who would invite me over to their house and give me first dibs on stuff they were going to auction online. Whatever works! :)
The Model Railroading hobby products industry is NOT unique in this "Brick & Mortar vs. Online" consumer war. I'm also a musician, and buying a keyboard or a guitar is much cheaper from an online dealer than from, say Guitar Center or a local music store. But sometimes, certain brick & mortar stores can give you a better price, and I naturally support those shops.
JWhite Simon, I have been meaning to drive over there. Maryville should be almost as close as Harters in Belleville. Jeff
Jeff, if you do, make note of the hours as the store does not keep regular store hours. http://www.k-10smodeltrains.com/ also every Sunday afternoon this month there is the open operating session. There is a fee to access the layout room on these days ($3 to get in) but it is well worth coming on one of those days to see the layout come alive.
I will try to answer each one of your questions:
RRcrossingYes there are those that say the LHS is ireplacable but I ask you why???.....For the knowledge they posses about hobbies?...but what about this very forum we are on right now. I can ask any question that comes to mind and get a response from thousands of knowledgable modelers. As far as selection goes there are a ridiculous amount of vendors on the internet that carry every thing from couplers to trees to buildings.
While I agree that the Internet provides some VERY good deals, I still spend 80-90% of my MRRing monies at my LHS - particularly, supplies and kits. Why?
1) Personalized and hands-on help - Anywhere from RR history to product information to product repair/replacement/returns. It is generally a lot easier to deal with that locally than it is with a Net-based business. While I appreciate and have greatly benefited from the expertise here, there are advantages to talking with someone face-to-face at my LHS.
2) I can view, touch, scrutinize, and handle what I'm contemplating buying - Unless I've seen the product before, I can't really do that online. When I buy a piece of rolling stock, I want to be able to open up the kit and see what the BLT or NEW date is. Hard to do with an online store.
3) I help out a local business and help them stay afloat - Sure, I could save money buying it online. However, having local businesses stay in business helps out the local economy and their neighborhoods.
Comparing purchasing a car to purchasing a loco or a structure kit is not really a fair comparison. Although it is possible, I would NEVER buy a car over the Internet without first looking it over with a keen pair of eyes (whether my own or someone more knowledgeable than myself) and climbing inside it, firing it up, and test driving it.
Many more factors go into buying a car than buying a loco or kit? How does it ride? Does it fit me well? Do my legs cramp up when I drive? Where are the blind spots? Does my wife like the fit and color? Are replacement parts expensive? Most of these questions would not even be asking if I were to purchase a loco or kit. Again, it's just not a fair comparison or analogy.
I can't answer that but I do hope it's for a VERY long time. Yes, stretching our hobby dollar is important. However, for me - relationships are equally, if not more important than just saving money. No Internet provider can ever really replace the ability of " wandering, looking, touching, talking and buying" around their virtual store that you and I can at our LHS. Where else can I ask about a model or kit and how it relates to RRing history?
Are these "benefits" worth the extra $$$ to me? Absolutely! It may also keep me from purchasing something that I would have wasted my monies on in the first place.
While others may not have a LHS within reasonable driving distances from them, I am blessed with three very good LHSes; all within a 30-min. drive from my house. Each one has their pluses. One LHS has a mind-boggling supply of kits - particularly Branchline. Another has 1/2 of the store dedicated to reference books that I can easily peruse through for information or to determine if it's worth buying for my expanding library. Another has someone with nearly 35 years of MRRing AND RR history expertise that I can glean from or just shoot the breeze with. Two others are 1 hr.+. from me; where one it chock full of detailing parts that I can see up close. If I I would be pretty hard-pressed to try and replace that with someone or some place online.
I realize that other modelers may not have some of the same advantages that I do because of my location, nor may they feel compelled to pay a little extra for the ability to walk in and "tangibly" shop. Each one has to decide how and where they will spend their hobby monies.
With that said, I do support a few online shops, who have proven their mettle over the years in areas where my LHS just don't have the expertise in. Their expertise, value for the $$$, and customer service are exemplary and they deserve to be patronized for the health of the hobby. Where I usually spend most of my money online is for locomotives (40-50% off MSRP) and DCC decoders. Again, this accounts for only 10-20% of my MRRing expenditures though.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Jeff, Harters and K-10 are not on the same league! Harters was the first LHS I found when I got back into HO Slot Cars, then came the trains. At that time, around 5 years ago all he carried was Life Like and Bachmann trains. Then I found K-10 model trains! I have not been back to Harters.
If anyone lives with in 60 miles, K-10 is a must vist.
http://www.k-10smodeltrains.com/layout_tour.htm
Cuda Ken
I hate Rust
I get stuff from both, but it depends what I'm looking for. When I'm on a trip I make a point to at least visit one shop. Being kind of loose with my money (I blame my mother ) when actually in one, I usually spend about 20 at each one...
However there is only a few hobby shops that specialize in trains (and not have it all tucked away in a corner somehwere) within an hours drive. Only 1 offers a discount off of MSRP which is 10% and the price of gas usually nullifies that. They usually don't have what I'm looking for which is stuff like detail parts, Kadee #5s (all they've had in recent visits are whiskers), older engines and car kits. As a result whenever I visit one, the first thing I look at is the used stuff (I managed to pick up 11 MDC BN hoppers for 30 out of one) and the kit cars.
For decoders and metal wheelsets, the internet is usually better. and one can shop around without driving back and forth. However the brick and mortar shp as an advantage since you can read a cars info before buying it. Most online retailers don't put the build dates on cars up there, as a result I have a few out of era cars.
Vincent
Wants: 1. high-quality, sound equipped, SD40-2s, C636s, C30-7s, and F-units in BN. As for ones that don't cost an arm and a leg, that's out of the question....
2. An end to the limited-production and other crap that makes models harder to get and more expensive.
Packer I get stuff from both, but it depends what I'm looking for.
I get stuff from both, but it depends what I'm looking for.
I'm the same way, but I do tend to check my local hobby store first for new releases of products, track supplies, scenery materials, etc. One big advantage of local hobby stores that I prefer over the internet is that you can see the products in person and see them more closely than you can online. I've lost track how often I'll go into my local hobby store and lose complete track of time while I browse the shelves and displays.
Kevin
http://chatanuga.org/RailPage.html
http://chatanuga.org/WLMR.html
Hey I got few spare moments to jump into this never ending discussion. For the folks who have seen my train set on either Allen Keller videos, magazine articles, and/or in person...be it known that I could not have built this thing or even come close without the help of a LHS and located 80 mles north in Gettysburg, PA. I'd run out of a particular item at 3pm and a call to Tommy Gilbert would result in having the item usually here the next day or as soon as possible as this wonderful proprietor knows fully the meaning of service. Personally I'd go for the excellent service and knowing that the shop will stand behind everything that it sells. There is a value to this that I have found usually worth more than the savings from mail order or internet.
I once owned a fairly large shop here in Maryland and in record time I learned the meaning of wholesale, very wholesale, really wholesale, and incredibly wholesale. It is not what the item sells for that keeps the shop alive, it is what it can be purchased for. Of course coupled with great and friendly service, competitive pricing, internet savy, and knowing the meaning of follow-up and a constant fresh appearance helps quite a bit.
Also most shops will work with you on pricing if you approach the owner with common sense.
I try to shop my LHS as much as possible. However, due to the limited run nature of many manufactures these days, if I miss the announcement or decide later I want something, one of the on-line mega stores or Evil-Bay are the only option.
It is very nice to have a LHS that knows me, and what I model. Even if I miss an announcement for something I might like, my LHS will order one just in case.
As for cost. After the various discounts I get at the LHS, and after adding shipping, it's often a wash between the LHS and on-line.
Nick
Take a Ride on the Reading with the: Reading Company Technical & Historical Society http://www.readingrailroad.org/
Like Metro Red Line, I too am also a musician. My local music store will order a high-end guitar for you, but you have to pay in advance, wait months to get it and when it arrives, you have to take it, even if it has some cosmetic flaw. They stock little or nothing I would want buy. As a matter of fact, they try to talk me out of the brand I'm interested in and into something else.
Conversely, I can browse the websites of saavy brick and mortar guitar stores, view their inventory on-line, look at pictures of the exact guitar I am considering, and order through the website. The website does not complain how credit card fees are eating up their profit. Shipping is free for most of these places. The price is much better than the local mom and pop store, and no attitude from them. When the guitar arrives, if you don't like it for any reason, ship it back within 2 days and they will refund your money.
I bought 1 higher end guitar from local guy. I bought 5 others over the last decade from saavy brick and mortar dealers from across the country. I no longer bother with the local guy for anything, as he stocks nothing and just complains about how the internet is killing his business. He won't even stock strings and picks so I have to go to Guitar Center (music equivalent of Home Depot) for that stuff.
It's his attitude and his competition that is killing his business, not the internet. I just found an alternative to him through the internet.
BTW, my LHS does not stock any code 55 N Scale rail of any brand, either (it just sits there, they say). So I just ordered about $200 worth of track from MB Klein and Feather River Trains, to try some stuff out and then I will place a large order through one of them.
Unlike the local guitar peddler, the people at my LHS are very nice and very knowledgable. I try to buy from them first, but lack of stock is becoming a huge problem for me. I can't get roadbed from them (have to order it), most rolling stock (they will order it for you, but you won't see it for weeks until after a glut of them have sold on ebay), etc.
I know a small business cannot stock everything, but the only way to get the business is to have it in stock. Offering to order it was a service that made sense in 1959, but now that takes much longer than if I order it myself (they order weekly or even less frequently, I order when I decide). I can have it in my hands before they even place the order, so that's not an efficient service to offer.
Alas...