Maybe we should avoid using labels entirely when it comes to assigning, or attributing, or describing ways of enjoying the hobby. That would mean not applying names to people that do not appear on their birth certificates, or that are not recognized professional titles and designations.
Labels have a way of establishing a pecking order that some people, quite rightly, defy and reject. Yet, we will all continue to judge each other by our own standards. The trouble comes when one or more people insist, stridently, that what they do has more merit than what others do. That applies to both extremes, the 'dabblers' and the 'rivet counters'. The hobby offers much to all comers. People are always free to take and to leave what they wish. They can always come back for more. Those who have 'more' to offer are always here to offer it. But, it should be offered, and not thrown, hosed, shouted, or dropped from dizzying heights.
We should each define our own fun, and evolve as we think best in the hobby. The name calling, which is what this is, serves no useful purpose except to polarize the population and curb useful exchanges of information.
-Crandell
You find rivet counters in just about every hobby you get into. I am just leaving model building and if you think the counters are bad in this hobby, try that one. Even my wife has to deal with stitch counters in her embroadery groups. It is just a fact of life. Now is it a bad thing? Sometimes yes and sometimes no. I will share something from my past hobby.
A fairly new company on the model scene came out with a long awaited 1/350 scale carrier kit. Overall to many, the kits was nice and a welcomed item on the market. But in walk the rivet counters. They find that the hull is wrong, the bow is misshaped and several other almost un-noticable things. They litterally crucify the model and the company on all the model forums. Said model company could have said the heck with ya then and went on and kept making other models inother genres. But they didn't. They listened to the rivet counters and the next kit they put out was way better.
See to me, rivet counting is good when you are looking at accuracy of certain things. This ready to run stuff seems to be the trend now and I have to accept that. But if they tell me the RTR stuff is more accurate than any box kit and add-ons then I want it to be more accurate. I value the opinions of rivet counters because they help me decide where my money will be spent. If I am going to dump $250 into an engine, I want it to be almost 100% accurate.
With accuracy does come cost. I am switchign hobbies because I can no longer afford the high price of accurate model kits. It is beginning to look like I can't afford this hobby either. To finish the story above, the next kit was nicer because they listened to the rivet counters, but it also came out with a $50 higher MSRP due to the extra effort they put into it. So being picky about things brought us a better model, but we also paid the price for it.
Oh and you think these threads get bad, Try arguing about how many boltheads were on a early Tiger I turrett. That kinda thread really gets blood boiling. What I have read here is nothing.
Jeff
A major issue people have with "rivet counting" is people making unsolicited comments/advice/or critiques.
Unsolicited comments are discouraged UNLESS they are the rah-rah "Family Feud" comments ("Good answer! Good answer!") You could dip a engine in a bucket of mud and get 10 posts saying what a great weathering job you did on this and most other general information forums. To me that really diminishes the value of the foroum. If the members think a really bad looking result is a "great job", can they be trusted to give a "critical" evaluation of of anybody's work? I'll say it, sometimes the end result of a modeling project looks like crap. If person A posts a picture of a Tyco F unit painted with latex house paint and 3" brush, lettered with stick on scrap book letters and that's a "good job", when person B superdetails and weathers an Genisis unit to match a specific unit as exactly as they can and that's a "good job", has person A been played for the fool or has person B been insulted? Of what value does constant ego stroking make the forum?
Is exclusively sugary, ego stroking really better than ego threatening criticism? Are people that insecure? Are the forums "lowering the bar" on modeling?
If somebody does ask for a critique and is given critical feedback, chances are there will be as many or more posts telling them not to listen to the feedback, that they can do it any way they want. Is the "don't pay attention to prototype, do what you want" approach just as bad for the modeler as the "rivet counter" approach? If the person is asking for a critique is told "don't pay attention to prototype, do what you want", is that as inappropriate and unhelpful a response as the person who doesn't ask for a critque recieving an unsolicited one?
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
Silver PilotWithout rivet counters we'd probably be left with Athearn wide body locomotives, F units with incorrect nose shapes (there is a difference between an FT nose and a F7 nose) short Athearn passenger cars etc. It is the rivet counters that have been at the forefront of the increase in quality and detail that we seen in the past number of years.
Which'll probably lead to the next step in the bellyache----the high cost of MRing---
Anyone who thinks that these 'Rivet Counters' are responsible for the supposed high cost might want to check out who buys them---not everyone who is a Rivet Counter buys RTR---the last time I checked--
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
CNJ831 pastorbob . On the other hand, I get really irritated at those who stake a narrow claim or stance and then, like Custer, defend it to the death. It is a hobby for crying out loud, not a life and death choice. Bob Oh, really?! Sounds to me like you are really up tight about it, Bob! Like it or not, a majority of serious, craftman hobbyists do not welcome the recent attempts to dumb down our hobby and reducing it to little more than a subset of playing with Lionels. Rather than having resulted in bringing everyone together, these efforts have separated the hobby into smaller specific groups more than ever and is in part why you see so very few advanced, or well known modelers on this forum. They have gone off and established their own forums. CNJ831
pastorbob . On the other hand, I get really irritated at those who stake a narrow claim or stance and then, like Custer, defend it to the death. It is a hobby for crying out loud, not a life and death choice. Bob
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On the other hand, I get really irritated at those who stake a narrow claim or stance and then, like Custer, defend it to the death.
It is a hobby for crying out loud, not a life and death choice.
Bob
Oh, really?! Sounds to me like you are really up tight about it, Bob!
Like it or not, a majority of serious, craftman hobbyists do not welcome the recent attempts to dumb down our hobby and reducing it to little more than a subset of playing with Lionels. Rather than having resulted in bringing everyone together, these efforts have separated the hobby into smaller specific groups more than ever and is in part why you see so very few advanced, or well known modelers on this forum. They have gone off and established their own forums.
CNJ831
CNJ,Perhaps you need to understand the different hobby groups that makes up our great hobby.
1.Casuals-These kindred folk are (if I may) not "real" hobbyist even tho' they may have a 4x6' or 4x8' Plywood Central layout and maybe run trains once or twice a month(for the boy or grand kids) during the winter and their equipment is the usual train set stuff and haven't bought anything new in years.They have no clue what a F7A is.
2.Dabblers.Dabblers are those that -well-dabble in the hobby as time permits(usually the winter months-if there isn't anything good on TV) and not all excited about the hobby since they have their other pursuits such as golf,bowling,fishing etc that requires most of their free time.
3.Average Joes..Average Joes makes up the bulk of the hobby and your most active since they are found in clubs,at train shows,trackside,on forums.These are knowledgeable modeler but,not over zealously so.
4.Advance modeler-One that enjoys modeling as close to the prototype as possible while maintaining a understanding this is a hobby with various styles of modeling.
5.The zealot.What can we say? The Zealot is haughty,arrogant and looks down their long noses on anybody that doesn't model his/her way and feels those "inferior" modelers are not "real" modelers as they hurt the progress of the hobby for "real" modelers.They are never happy always whining about this or that not being "correct" yet,you never see or even look at a picture of their "110% perfect" models.
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
jecorbett There is nothing wrong with someone who wants to pursue an extremely high level of prototype fidelity in their modeling. Where it becomes irritating is when it becomes almost obsessive compulsive and these folks expect/demand that the rest of the hobby world adhere to their same standard. This manifests itself in two ways. When the rivet counter points out what they perceive as flaws in other people's modeling or when they whine about a manufacturer who has come out with a new product that is less than 100% accurate to the prototype. In the former case, if some one hasn't asked for their work to be critiqued, the rivet counter should learn to take that to mean they don't want their work to be critiqued. In the latter case, if a new product doesn't live up to their standards, then take it to the work bench and add/fix the inaccurate detail until it does meet their standards. The rest of the world can live with these minor inaccuracies and putting in all that detail could drive the price of the product up to the point where it can't be sold on a large enough scale for the manufacturer to make a profit.
There is nothing wrong with someone who wants to pursue an extremely high level of prototype fidelity in their modeling. Where it becomes irritating is when it becomes almost obsessive compulsive and these folks expect/demand that the rest of the hobby world adhere to their same standard. This manifests itself in two ways. When the rivet counter points out what they perceive as flaws in other people's modeling or when they whine about a manufacturer who has come out with a new product that is less than 100% accurate to the prototype. In the former case, if some one hasn't asked for their work to be critiqued, the rivet counter should learn to take that to mean they don't want their work to be critiqued. In the latter case, if a new product doesn't live up to their standards, then take it to the work bench and add/fix the inaccurate detail until it does meet their standards. The rest of the world can live with these minor inaccuracies and putting in all that detail could drive the price of the product up to the point where it can't be sold on a large enough scale for the manufacturer to make a profit.
It is because of 'rivet counters' that manufacturers have come out with highly detailed, accurate models over the last number of years. It is the rivet counters who are a source of information and data to manufacturers looking to produce a accurate model of a GP38-2 or a PRR caboose or any of the passenger cars introduced. It is the rivet counters that scour over pre-production models, often at the manufacturer's request, to make certain that the windows and doors are in the correct location, the height is correct and that the paint schemes are accurate in the areas of color, size and location of lettering.
Without rivet counters we'd probably be left with Athearn wide body locomotives, F units with incorrect nose shapes (there is a difference between an FT nose and a F7 nose) short Athearn passenger cars etc. It is the rivet counters that have been at the forefront of the increase in quality and detail that we seen in the past number of years.
ARTHILLI have become a "board counter". In making a diorama of my 150 year old family farm, all I had were old pictures and one remaining board from the barn. With the measurement from that one board, I could count boards on the barn pics and the other buildings and determine the size of the buildings and the windows and the doors.
That should look good when it is done-----pix please
I think modelling does take patience. One has to find enough data on the buildings they are trying to model---like me and my elevators and other buildings I just recently realized, for example, that having some kind of a measuring stick--yard stick--is a good idea Did I have one? Noooooooo
So some of the buildings I'm building are going to be not quite to par in terms of scale size---
I have become a "board counter". In making a diorama of my 150 year old family farm, all I had were old pictures and one remaining board from the barn. With the measurement from that one board, I could count boards on the barn pics and the other buildings and determine the size of the buildings and the windows and the doors. It took some doing, but I have the entire set of structures scaled off that one board and a lot of counting. I look forward to the other "board counters" coming over and seeing how well I did. I will have to explain to some that I had to "cheat" a little to get things to fit. The reason this project is out of styrene instead of wood is because Evergreen had the siding I needed in the right scale.
Hail to all the "rivet counters" who give me credit for effort and not critisism for compromise.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - R e m i n d e r - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Let's keep these exchanges cordial, gentlemen. It would be nice - for a change - if this topic could be discussed without the inevitable, spiraling out-of-control, fireball ending that usually takes place whenever it comes up on the forum. I don't hold out much hope...but it sure would be nice.
Thanks for your consideration.
Tom
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Like it or not, a majority of serious, craftman hobbyists do not welcome the recent attempts to dumb down our hobby and reduce it to little more than a subset of playing with Lionels. Rather than having resulted in bringing everyone together, these efforts have separated the hobby into smaller specific groups more than ever and is in part why you see so very few advanced, or well known modelers on this forum. They have gone off and established other forums.
CNJ831 wrote: say this because the term "Rivet Counter" originated with the toy train folks in the first place, coming to pass when Lionel issured their pre-war scale Hudson. Claimed to be accurate "down to the last rivet", some enterprising hobbyist went out and actually countered the rivets on the prototype's tender and found the Lionel model off by one, or two. On learning of this, J.L.C. announced that he was initiating the position of "Rivet Counter" within the company to insure that such an error would not occur in the future and that his models would henceforth be completely accurate.
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LOL! Now we know!
CNJ,Please don't lump the dabblers,the causals and average Joe modeler in the same heap since all three are different and pursuing the hobby in the fashion that suits their needs.
Where is a good rivet counter when you need one? I have an HO Faribanks-Morse C-Liner, that came from the factory in SP Daylight colors. I think I might look for a Trainmaster in Black Widow colors to complement it. You need detail-oriented people with a sense of history to keep track of things, and help the rest of us see how things really are/were.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
CNJ831I say this because the term "Rivet Counter" originated with the toy train folks in the first place, coming to pass when Lionel issured their pre-war scale Hudson. Claimed to be accurate "down to the last rivet", some enterprising hobbyist went out and actually countered the rivets on the prototype's tender and found the Lionel model off by one, or two. On learning of this, J.L.C. announced that he was initiating the position of "Rivet Counter" within the company to insure that such an error would not occur in the future and that his models would henceforth be completely accurate!
I suspected as such!! Thanks for that piece of information----we did have something of a discussion over the phrase last night up here!!
As for the idea that one can sort of stuff the two phrases back into the genie's bottle I don't think it'll work----but but but---like some words in our language have been redefined into other purposes. One, I think, can "de-fang" the phrase by carrying the Rivet Counter flag high and, in so doing, redefine the phrase into something positive----
So far we have a very well defined discription of the term, and interpretations of the term, including CNJ's definition of dabblers, those who don't get their panty hose in a tizzy over small details and ignore the bigger picture.
Having spent 50 years and a couple over in the hobby, I take middle of the road and am quite happy to be there. On the other hand, I get really irritated at those who stake a narrow claim or stance and then, like Custer, defend it to the death. I like the middle of the road, and I am just as big of a fan of railroads, full size and small as anyone. But I also have other lives to live and other causes to get all emotional over. So I will continue to count rivits to a degree, and accept compromises to a degree, and ignore those who say everything has to meet their standards or it is no good. If that makes me a dabbler in the eyes of some, big deal! Striving for perfection is one thing, claiming ones view of perfection is the only correct one is another.
Silver Pilot "Rivet Counter" is used as a derogatory term towards modelers that follow a more prototype based form of modeling. Typically the term is used by those modelers who feel intimidated by the "rivet counters' and is sued by modelers who like to justify their modeling by using the phrases "its my model (layout) and I can model whatever I, however I what and nobody can tell me how to model" and "as long as I'm having fun, who cares if its wrong."
"Rivet Counter" is used as a derogatory term towards modelers that follow a more prototype based form of modeling. Typically the term is used by those modelers who feel intimidated by the "rivet counters' and is sued by modelers who like to justify their modeling by using the phrases "its my model (layout) and I can model whatever I, however I what and nobody can tell me how to model" and "as long as I'm having fun, who cares if its wrong."
The above is certainly one of the best definitions of the situation, as a whole, that I've seen. Far too often the scale hobby's "dabblers", the direct opposites of the so-called rivet counters, will affix the title of rivet counter to anyone whose modelling, or hobby knowledge, is above their own often crude level. The "It's my layout and I can do whatever and you can't criticize it" is a likwise over used phrase in the hobby today, usually employed to cover up a lack of modelling effort on the part of the wouldbe hobbyist. Both concepts need to be returned to the toy train arena, where they belong.
I say this because the term "Rivet Counter" originated with the toy train folks in the first place, coming to pass when Lionel issued their pre-war scale Hudson. Claimed to be accurate "down to the last rivet", some enterprising hobbyist went out and actually countered the rivets on the prototype's tender and found the Lionel model off by one, or two. On learning of this, J.L.C. announced that he was initiating the position of "Rivet Counter" within the company to insure that such an error would not occur in the future and that his models would henceforth be completely accurate!
It has been my expereance that there are two kinds of Rivet Counters.The first kind willingly share their knowledge of the prototype IF asked.These are the good ones.
The other kind will share their (sometimes faulty) knowledge with you whether you want it or not.
I am I guess by definition a Proto/Freelancer,by that I mean I freelance my own road (Grande Valley Ry) so the locos and such are done my way.Well the GVR connects to several Proto roads and those locos and such by my definition have to look the part.
That being said I rather enjoy the first type of rivet counter because they help me keep my proto stuff believable.The second type can go take a flying .........
richhotrain But, what exactly is a rivet counter and what type of religious adherence to prototype does a rivet counter demand?
As with any colloquial expression, there is no one definition of a "rivet counter". And, as with virtually all derogatory terms, what a rivet counter is is not defined by rivet counters but by the people disparaging them. I have been called a rivet counter because I wanted my cars to have reasonably accurate numbers. So basically anybody that expresses any opinion regarding any adhereance to prototype can be thought of as a rivet counter by anybody who has a lesser desire for prototype adherance.
My take on the rivit counter is that s/he--I know of one female rivit counter here!--is usually quite knowledgable about their field of expertise. The ones that I know here are interested---very!--in certain locomotives and/or RR's and sometimes will tell me about certain things they've come across about their RR/locomotives-----and it does help me a lot in explaining to myself why certain things were done in a certain way in the area that I'm modelling. And, yes, thread pitch sometimes does weasel its way in there---after all the Rivit Counters that I know and see at the LHS's I've come across do have a sense of humour--
"Rivet Counter" is used as a derogatory term towards modelers that follow a more prototype based form of modeling. Typically the term is used by those modelers who feel intimidated by the "rivet counters' and is used by modelers who like to justify their modeling by using the phrases "its my model (layout) and I can model whatever I, however I want and nobody can tell me how to model" and "as long as I'm having fun, who cares if its wrong."
Like everything this hobby has various levels of accuracy. A Rivet Counter is generally meant to describe a person who wants his model so accurate he will go as far as to even count the rivets on the prototype to make sure the model matches.
However, somewhere along the way Rivet Counter has been used in a not so flattering way. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with being a Rivet Counter. If they choose to model that accurately, fantastic. I love to see their work it is inspiring. Rivet Counter to me is no different than saying a "Super Detail Modeler" nor is it any more insulting. The problem is a VERY small percentage of people, and I won't say they're all Rivet Counters because it is not exclusive to them by any means, well, let's just say behave arrogantly. (see the thread you mentioned) and because of what they complain about, details, they have given Rivet Counters a bad name.
The vast and over whelming majority of Rivet Counters are wonderful people just like the rest of the Model Railroading world. But in a quiet room you are going to hear the one who isn't, loud and clear. The Rivet Counters who take offense to the term are usually the ones who give the title grief. The others well, like bikers, they know it's not them that give the bad rap, but that few. I certainly hope the name doesn't become a derogatory term. I rather like it. I don't believe I will ever wear the badge, but I certainly respect the ones who do. Well, most any way.
Todd
Central Illinoyz
In order to keep my position as Master and Supreme Ruler of the House, I don't argue with my wife.
I'm a small town boy. A product of two people from even smaller towns. I don’t talk on topic….. I just talk.
(Well, I hope this thread and topic doesn't eventually end up in a land fill somewhere.)
Rich, there are two types of rivet counters: Good ones and bad ones.
The good ones have an acute awareness of (and are sticklers for) details and want to create a layout or model of theirs that is as accurate as possible.
The bad ones may or may not have the same traits as the good rivet counters but their flaw is making sure that they point out the "flaws and inaccuracies" on other's layouts and models.
As someone stated on the other thread, good rivet counters are most likely responsible for the highly accurate models that we see and enjoy today on the market. To that we should be grateful. The bad rivet counters? They just end up trying the patience of everyone else around them.
There is a much viewed current post on this forum titled Annoying Train Show Patrons. These annoying people are characterized as "rivet counters" by some forumites.
I was particularly amused by a post from grizlump who identified rivet counters as follows: they usually take up counter space and the owner's time by holding court and lecturing on the thread pitch of GP-7 door hinge bolts or some other asinine subject.
I love it!
But, what exactly is a rivet counter and what type of religious adherence to prototype does a rivet counter demand?
Thanks in advance for educating me.
Rich
Alton Junction