Rivet Counters

[selector]

I am locking the thread before it deteriorates, as it has on this topic every time.  Many people have made some good points...I commend the various responses to you if you wish to review them.

-Crandell

[aloco]

The term 'rivet counter' is not in my vocabulary.

I use the term nit picker instead.

 

[modelmaker51]

green_elite_cab

 I'm a bit of a rivet counter, but you know what? i feel justified.

 For one thing, i'd never say anyone's work is bad.  I don't have a problem pointing simple things out.  On some models, there may be a major detail that is prominent on the prototype  that costs maybe $2.50 from details west or something.

I have no problem saying "hey, that GP40 has such and such air horn,  that would look good instead of the factory one".   

 I figure this is constructive criticism, which is fine, right?  

 another such situation was a SD60 a guy had that belonged to conrail.  for whatever reason, the original owner had a winterization hatch on it (conrail SD60s don't have these).  Thats all i said.  the hatch pops right off.   

 I mean, i do some OK work, i don't expect people to be experts, but sometimes, little details count.  

Unless you were asked for your opinion, then you are being a "Rivet Counter" in the bad sense.

[TMarsh]

Ah ha! See? Most are in agreement that it is not the fact that a "Rivet Counter" or whatever, models extremely accurate is in any way a problem or for that matter how anyone models is a problem. It is the attitude the person takes that is the problem. The only time, usually, a person will ball up and say I don't care what you think I'll do it my way is if they are previously hit with the opposite.

Paul3- I beg to differ. In the context for which I used the comparison, being what I do within the confines of my home that is legal and moral and does not defy any laws nor does it effect any other person, my carpet color and my MRR should be of equal importance to you or anyone else other than me. In that case yes it is a fair comparison. If you like it fine if you don't, how does it affect you. I fail to see how it does. Which is my true point. I don't understand how my less than accurate modeling causes such an uproar amongst some. More like a very few. If someone chooses to model dead accurate, more power to them and I admire them for it just as I do an accomplished musician. But if I choose not to carry it to that exemplary level, should I be berated or banished? And in this case, no, an example of would 2+2 = somewhere between 3 and 4 to a non mathematician be acceptable. More like the example of the musician. If I didn't choose to study music to a Masters level, should I not be allowed to participate by singing in a choir or to the radio if I choose to? There are a lot of good singers with a pleasing sound that aren't perfect. By the way, my carpet is real. I just went over and touched it.

IRONROOSTER- I was not aware of the origins of the term as you described them. Being as how I never took it to be a derogatory term myself, I just assumed... well anyway. Your point is well taken and I shall be more careful in my use of the term. Obviously not all Prototype modelers find the term offensive, but apparently some do and I will try to respect their feelings. Thank you for the information. And you are right. It is a silly discussion as I truly don't believe a thing will change other than the direction of the conversation. A Dandelion will never be a Rose even if everyone wants it to be.

[Silver Pilot]

Paul is correct.  Prototype modeler is thr proper term for someone who attempts to accurately model a piece of specific prototype equipment.  Each one will have their own level of how far they want to take the accuracy of the subject being modeled.  I have never heard a prototype modeler refer to themselves or other prototype modelers as 'rivet counters.'

As stated early in this thread, the term "rivet counter" is typically used in a derogatory manner or meant to have a derogatory connotation.  And, typically it is used by a person who identifies more to the adage of "its my layout and I'll do what I want." When they learn that there are inaccuracies in their model that's they're fall back cry..  It seems like their next step is to call the person who pointed out it a 'rivet counter" as a put down.   

I consider myself more of a prototype modeler than some of the other terms used in this thread.  I may not take it the some other PMs do, but I strive accuracy and to have things look 'right'  For example as a CB&Q modeler, I now that the 'Q' didn't own any bay window caboose.  That's enough for me to avoid buying the Athearn bay window waycar, in Q parlence.  If someone wants to buy one - go ahead.  IN guess, IMO that picture speaks a thousand words about the level accuracy that person has set as their modeling standard.  I see picture posted here from time to time with a Q BW waycar in them, do I point out the inaccuracy of the model?  No, but the picture does tell me something.

[IRONROOSTER]

 A most amusing thread.  When I started model railroading many years ago, rivet counter was a pejorative term used to describe an individual who, unsolicited, pointed out everything that was wrong with YOUR model, track, layout, etc.  It had nothing to do with doing accurate modeling, helping out manufacturers, etc.  Personally, I think the term prototype modeler is much better for those interested in being accurate and faithful to the prototype.  Plus it doesn't have a negative history. 

Trying to change a negative term into a positive term is usually unsuccessful.  But I have the impression that some responders delight in being offended. And as I said before, it does make for an amusing thread as everyone argues at cross purposes.

Enjoy

Paul

[Paul3]

To address the original point:

There are boorish people in all walks of life.  Rivet Counting has nothing to do with it.  There are just as many people out there that will roast you alive for caring about detail as there are people that will roast you alive for not caring about detail.

Boorish example #1 from a Rivet Counter:
"All your modeling work is wrong!  If you knew anything about the XYZ Railroad, you'd know that they didn't have that kind of loco until after 1960, that all the such-and-such cabooses were all scrapped, and that passenger service had ended in the 1930's.  You are not a real model railroader as long as these errors exist on your railroad.  Nobody should make anything that's not 100% accurate."

Boorish example #2 from a Roundy-Rounder:
"What a waste of money!  You need to get a life and realize that nobody cares about accuracy & detail.  As long as my 5 year old relative likes it, you should like it, too.  They are just toys, after all.  Nobody should make anything that my 5 year old relative can break."

Boors are boors, no matter where they go or what they do.

For TMarsh:
The model railroad vs. your carpet is not a good comparison.  A model railroad is a representation of a generally larger real item.  Your carpet is just a carpet.  Now, if you were building a house for Plymouth Plantation to be used in the historical recreation of what life was like in the 1620's, if you don't use the correct floor covering, you can bet you'll hear about it.

Paul A. Cutler III
*******************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*******************

[selector]

Dave Vollmer

..What I DON'T do is tell other people their work isn't up to my snuff; that's none of my business. I'm very demanding of myself, but I refuse to make other people feel badly for not doing what I do. I may not be attracted to someone's work. I may not even like it. But it's not my place to say anything about it. I have a vision in my head of what I want to achieve, and I understand that vision is different for each and every model railroader...

Yes!!  That's it, Dave.  Well said.

And isn't it ironic, that a few of those who profess to be real 'modelers' don't know at times how to model encouraging behaviour?  I think they must feel that an attaboy, and a "here is what you might consider doing if you are interested" approach is much too hard for them, or somehow beneath them.

Modelling has a meta side to it.  Modelling good behaviour is as important, if one wishes to be taken seriously, or openly, as is one's repository of squirreled-away information about the numbers of rivets on a given tender's backside, and as imporant as the internal pressures that want us to share them.

I don't want to come across as jumping in and harping about the few who can't find a way to build people up but by tearing them down....because I do entirely, whole-heartedly get, and agree with, the statements by others that our hobby would be greatly diminished...today...if it were not for people who were very serious and highly accomplished in terms of their study and their applied skills.  Even the curmudgeons.

-Crandell

[green_elite_cab]

 I'm a bit of a rivet counter, but you know what? i feel justified.

 For one thing, i'd never say anyone's work is bad.  I don't have a problem pointing simple things out.  On some models, there may be a major detail that is prominent on the prototype  that costs maybe $2.50 from details west or something.

I have no problem saying "hey, that GP40 has such and such air horn,  that would look good instead of the factory one".   

 I figure this is constructive criticism, which is fine, right?  

 another such situation was a SD60 a guy had that belonged to conrail.  for whatever reason, the original owner had a winterization hatch on it (conrail SD60s don't have these).  Thats all i said.  the hatch pops right off.   

 I mean, i do some OK work, i don't expect people to be experts, but sometimes, little details count.  

[rclanger]

TMarsh

And now for my big question. Why is it that what I do with the items I purchase on the market, contributing to supply and demand, creating sales volume for the manufacturers so they will continue making their products, whether I make it a work of art or not, dead accurate or just kinda close, in my basement, spare room, garage or wherever, be any more a problem for others than what color carpet I choose for my hallway. Please explain that to me. Trust me, I will not be offended.

 

Simple!  There isn't one.

[blownout cylinder]

Dave Vollmer

Taking great pains to model every link in a brake chain is just as valid a form of model railroading as running double stacks behind a Big Boy. I subscribe to neither extreme.

---------or trying to place every single nail hole into a wooden barn------in N scale------thinking this is prototypical-----but in N scale?

[Dave Vollmer]

jeffrey-wimberly

 At one time during my 40+ years in the hobby everything I did had to be just right, every nut and bolt of detail in just the right place, every blade of grass standing up just right. Today I just can't believe I was so shallow in my thinking, I just don't care anymore. The detail off the shelf is good enough. If anybody has a problem with it, well, that's their problem. It's my model, I'll do what I please with it.

Jeff,

Not sure I understand here... "Shallow" with respect to being concerned about what others thought? In that case I'd agree. If you mean to infer (I don't think you do) that anyone who DOES worry about every nut and bolt is shallow, I will respectfully disagree.

Taking great pains to model every link in a brake chain is just as valid a form of model railroading as running double stacks behind a Big Boy. I subscribe to neither extreme.

[Dave Vollmer]

I am a rivet counter. To the best of my ability, I try to make all of my equipment as accurate as possible to the prototype, to the point that I actually did count the rivets on the 210F75 tender I kitbashed for my N scale PRR Class M1 4-8-2.

I also expect that in this day and age with historical societies ready to help (many have "modeling committees" that will assist manufacturers) and an unbelievable amount of FREE information available on the Internet that there is no excuse for a manufacturer not to make new models accurate. Indeed, SO MUCH information is available for the Pennsylvania Railroad, for example, that it almost seems like you'd have to go out of your way to intentionally get something wrong. I'm willing to except "foobies" (stand-ins) especially in N scale simply because the right body style may not be available, but will replace them once they do.

I've given direct feedback to manufacturers both before and after the model is released on accuracy. Call me silly, but I suspect that we all want our little trains to look a lot like the big ones, so while we might say accuracy is not that important, I think deep down we all kind of know it is.

What I DON'T do is tell other people their work isn't up to my snuff; that's none of my business. I'm very demanding of myself, but I refuse to make other people feel badly for not doing what I do. I may not be attracted to someone's work. I may not even like it. But it's not my place to say anything about it. I have a vision in my head of what I want to achieve, and I understand that vision is different for each and every model railroader.

Rivet Counters as accuracy hounds have helped us get to the point where we can choose between a GP38-2 Phase I or Phase II... Rivet Counters as nitpickers have given all of us accuracy hounds a bad rep.

[blownout cylinder]

selector

Maybe we should avoid using labels entirely when it comes to assigning, or attributing, or describing ways of enjoying the hobby.  That would mean not applying names to people that do not appear on their birth certificates, or that are not recognized professional titles and designations

Just make sure the legal papers are in order

Really, this kind of label mongering does come across like any labeling scenario that has pestered all manner of endeavours since who knows when-------must be all marking behaviour

Sometimes distinctions do come in handy though in MRR. If I wanted specific information on a specific locomotive I might want to know whether someone is a "rivet counter" in that area. And not a, say, brick collector-----differences are just that ---differences. They are not hierarchical in themselves----we turn them into those hierarchies. And that is where the hoohaw starts--

[TMarsh]

dehusman

TMarsh

UP yellow. But it wasn't quite the right shade.

Then it wasn't licensed?

Oh NO!! I didn't think about that! Well, there goes my hobby bucks for the next 400 years. Oh wait! I freelance. I'll call it something else and be OK.

By the way, no sarcasm or hidden meaning. I do freelance and I do make things up as I go.

[dehusman]

TMarsh

UP yellow. But it wasn't quite the right shade.

Then it wasn't licensed?

[PRR_in_AZ]

What I find interesting is that it is very hard for someone to be a rivet counter or whatnot in every facet of this hobby.  There are so many different things that compose a model railroad and make it outstanding or not.  Those things (IMO that are most successful) are usually put together to form a scene that is pleasant for us to view.  Intricate detail on all facets of model railroading in really impractical.  Some may strive for prototype fidelity in their motive power.  Others like to super detail rolling stock.  Some are excellent at weathering.  Others have amazingly detailed track.  Each of us has his/her own special interest in the hobby.  It doesn't make it right or wrong to park your beautifully detailed steam engine next to an unpainted shiny plastic roundhouse.  You may say look a my awesome locomotive -  accurate down to the last rivet and I may say look at that unfinished roundhouse.  That's the true beauty of the hobby neither one of us is "correct".

Chris

[Murphy Siding]

TMarsh

Murphy Siding

Good Lord Man !!!  What color carpet did you go and put in your hallway???

 

UP yellow. But it wasn't quite the right shade.

  Just as well.  You know how that stuff looks when it gets dirty.

[jeffrey-wimberly]

 At one time during my 40+ years in the hobby everything I did had to be just right, every nut and bolt of detail in just the right place, every blade of grass standing up just right. Today I just can't believe I was so shallow in my thinking, I just don't care anymore. The detail off the shelf is good enough. If anybody has a problem with it, well, that's their problem. It's my model, I'll do what I please with it.

[RedGrey62]

TMarsh

Murphy Siding

Good Lord Man !!!  What color carpet did you go and put in your hallway???

 

UP yellow. But it wasn't quite the right shade.

You must have used Polly Scale instead of Floquil!

Ricky

[TMarsh]

Murphy Siding

Good Lord Man !!!  What color carpet did you go and put in your hallway???

 

UP yellow. But it wasn't quite the right shade.

[Murphy Siding]

TMarsh

And now for my big question. Why is it that what I do with the items I purchase on the market, contributing to supply and demand, creating sales volume for the manufacturers so they will continue making their products, whether I make it a work of art or not, dead accurate or just kinda close, in my basement, spare room, garage or wherever, be any more a problem for others than what color carpet I choose for my hallway. Please explain that to me. Trust me, I will not be offended.

  Good Lord Man !!!  What color carpet did you go and put in your hallway???

(Sorry- the made me do it. )

[TMarsh]

selector

Maybe we should avoid using labels entirely when it comes to assigning, or attributing, or describing ways of enjoying the hobby.  That would mean not applying names to people that do not appear on their birth certificates, or that are not recognized professional titles and designations.

Labels have a way of establishing a pecking order that some people, quite rightly, defy and reject.

Very good point and I agree that would be best. Unfortunately, that would make us all modelers, and we've been told point blank many times, we do not qualify. Some have created a distinction and now don't like it. I do like the Zealot phrase. Would that make the FEW happy? I think not.

Are there just a few that feel we can do what we want? Is it an excuse? Are we wrong? Well take a look at the Worlds Greatest Hobby pamphlet, or whatever you call it, that was just received recently. The second paragraph on the very first page under the title "Why it's "The World's Greatest Hobby"". And I quote " In a word, the answer is "choice". Unlike other leisure-time activities, model railroading doesn't have a right and wrong way to do things. You can participate in a way that works for you. And since you've customized the hobby to your tastes and needs, you're definitely going to have a good time." And it continues. Nowhere have I ever read that Model Railroading must consist of anything, other than probably a train. I also have never read where in order to participate you must maintain a certain level of accuracy or skill. If there is please let me know before I sink too much more money in it.

From my take as a person who is a mix of Casual, dabbler, and Average Joe, I don't really care what someone thinks of my work as a fairly newcomer and probably won't take to heart as I progress. I don't care if you don't like my MRR habits or how I choose to build my RR. Just like I don't care if people like me. But, if you keep coming up and telling me what you don't like about me every time you see me, then it will start to bother me and eventually really torque me off. Just as it would anybody.

As to the exact replicas of RTR's, well, doesn't that go against the "modeling" scenario if there is no "modeling" to do? Now we open the door for the "real" modelers to step in and sing about the lack of kits and how RTR's are ruining the hobby.

Do we want to be catered and pampered, no. An honest critque, yes. But is it necessary to berate the person or be harsh just because the exact definition of critique says so? How about just pointing out the problems and offering suggestions for improvement. How about if I stood next to you at a booth and belched and let flatulence fly. Hey, it's natural. I have as much right to be there as you, that's the way I am. You're in public. Why not? In public you should expect to deal with other peoples habits. Oh yeah, in public we consider that behavior as a society, rude. That's why we don't do it. An abundance of foul language is offensive to some and that is why it too is frowned on. Why would a public forum be any different. Yes there are private forums just as there are private clubs where various behaviors are accepted. Does that mean you can spend you time only in those places? By all means no. However, As my Mother used to say as she grabbed me as a child, "stop that! You're in public!"

And now for my big question. Why is it that what I do with the items I purchase on the market, contributing to supply and demand, creating sales volume for the manufacturers so they will continue making their products, whether I make it a work of art or not, dead accurate or just kinda close, in my basement, spare room, garage or wherever, be any more a problem for others than what color carpet I choose for my hallway. Please explain that to me. Trust me, I will not be offended.

[tomikawaTT]

The term, "Rivet Counter," has received a perjorative overtone because there are a few folks who insist that YOUR rivets have to conform to THEIR idea of what's right and proper.  OTOH, there are lots of experts who are happy to share their knowledge - if you ask for such help.

A quick way to tell the difference?  The helpful ones will ASK what you are trying to do.  The less-helpful ones will TELL all and sundry when they see something 'wrong,' even when they don't have the faintest idea of what is (and is not) right.

I have a good bit of seniority as a model railroader, but I'm the first to concede that there are gaping holes in my knowledge and experience.  That's why I usually start a conversation with a question.  Or, if someone asks a question, I will attempt to provide the answer if I can, but will use the honest answer, "I don't know," if the question is beyond the rather limited borders of my expertise.

What's really pathetic is learning that some loud, pushy, "My way or else," type is really outside of his (her) area of expertise, and is trying to wing it.  What's sad is that such people will seldom accept correction gracefully.

Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)

[odave]

dehusman

"...do what you want"

I've come to think of this approach as more "know what you want".   As I posted in another thread recently, unless you are modeling to someone else's specifications (a customer, contest, friend, club, etc.), you and you alone are the sole judge of what is "good enough" for you and what bothers you.  You set your own bar, and any negative feedback, solicited or not, can be judged against that bar.  You may even move your bar up or down based on the feedback, but at the end of the day, it's still your call.  I don't think this is a cop-out, it's knowing yourself and setting your goals.

It also helps to be mature enough to accept the good with the bad when you "put something out there", even if the comments are delivered by someone who lacks the same maturity or tact.

 

[twhite]

I suppose I fall into the 'middle of the road' category, but I do like my steam locomotives to be as representational of the railroad(s) that I model as I can possibly get them. 

I have several friends at my LHS's here in the Sacramento area that ARE "Rivet Counters", and frankly, they've been a pretty big help to me in a lot of cases.  I remember buying a consignment brass loco of a Rio Grande 3-cylinder 1600 class Mountain (unpainted), and as we were test running the little devil, the guy asked me what number I was going to assign it.  Well, I knew that there were 10 total of these locos on the Rio Grande.  He then told me that the 1600's came from Baldwin with two distinctive types of feed-water heater (mine was an Elesco) and to be sure and look up the correct numbers in my Rio Grande book for this particular one. 

"Oh, definitely,"  I nodded. 

He chuckled.  "Well, you never know about you musicians."

I laughed.  He's right, you know.  This guy can come over and count the 'rivets' on my layout anytime he wants, because he's genuinely helpful.  And he knows his stuff. 

I worry about the "Zealots" (though I've only ever met one or two), but the person who is actually HELPING you strive for accuracy in your modeling is just fine by me. 

Bring 'em on, I say. 

Tom

[jecorbett]

Silver Pilot

jecorbett

There is nothing wrong with someone who wants to pursue an extremely high level of prototype fidelity in their modeling. Where it becomes irritating is when it becomes almost obsessive compulsive and these folks expect/demand that the rest of the hobby world adhere to their same standard. This manifests itself in two ways. When the rivet counter points out what they perceive as flaws in other people's modeling or when they whine about a manufacturer who has come out with a new product that is less than 100% accurate to the prototype. In the former case, if some one hasn't asked for their work to be critiqued, the rivet counter should learn to take that to mean they don't want their work to be critiqued. In the latter case, if a new product doesn't live up to their standards, then take it to the work bench and add/fix the inaccurate detail until it does meet their standards. The rest of the world can live with these minor inaccuracies and putting in all that detail could drive the price of the product up to the point where it can't be sold on a large enough scale for the manufacturer to make a profit.  

It is because of 'rivet counters' that manufacturers have come out with highly detailed, accurate models over the last number of years.  It is the rivet counters who are a source of information and data to manufacturers looking to produce a accurate model of a GP38-2 or a PRR caboose or any of the passenger cars introduced.  It is the rivet counters that scour over pre-production models, often at the manufacturer's request, to make certain that the windows and doors are in the correct location, the height is correct and that the paint schemes are accurate in the areas of color, size and location of lettering.

Without rivet counters we'd probably be left with Athearn wide body locomotives, F units with incorrect nose shapes (there is a difference between an FT nose and a F7 nose) short Athearn passenger cars etc.  It is the rivet counters that have been at the forefront of the increase in quality and detail that we seen in the past number of years.

Frankly, the wide bodied Athearn locomotives never bothered me because I never knew about it until you just told me and now that I know, it still doesn't bother me. The only way you find out these things is if you take the time to measure them. It's easier not to measure and fret about such things. Ignorance is bliss. My Athearn BB F units have been retired for quite some time but it had nothing to do with their wide bodies. My biggest gripe with them wasn't their appearance but the ridiculous coupler pockets which weren't Kadee friendly. DCC sound equipped locos have driven them to the shelf. These all come equipped with knuckle couplers and if they don't perform as well as Kadees, they are easy to replace.

It's nice that the manufacturers are taking the time to make other make sure all the other details are accurate but they probably do that to make their product appeal to the broadest possible market which means including the rivet counters but for many of us, it simply isn't that important. Does it really matter if my new NYC 20th Century E7s match exactly to the original paint color when the prototypes ran under outdoor lighting and no doubt faded over time while my models are running under flourescent lighting which is going to make them appear differently anyway.

As for the Athearn short passenger cars, the last I checked, they are still being sold and there is a good reason for that. Many modelers don't have room for broad radius curves that allow for running scale length passenger cars and the shortie Athearn cars are a good compromise between performance and appearance.  

[Silver Pilot]

Dave H. - Your points are well made.  Hopefully they will be well taken also.  There is far too much of the 'good job' and 'inspirational' comments thrown around than people really trying to 'inspire' someone to continue down the neverending path of modeling/skill improvement.

Now, let's all hold hands and sing.

[Two Truck Shay]

Good to know.

And here I thought the Rivet Counter was a place to sit at Elliott's Trackside Diner!

Learn something every day!