I love going to train shows. I love looking at the displays and browsing the booths. I was thinking back to one that was held in Tulsa, OK earlier this year.
I have to tell this story that I thought a certain patron was downright rude. I was watching a display layout from one of the local clubs. One of the members had a passenger train operating with no lights and was obvious that he just purchased the cars, because I saw him inspect everyone of them before placing them on the track. They were Walthers heavywieghts and they seemed to take the curves quite well. The cars had no lighting obviously and no figures for that matter. I don't think the interiors were painted. Anyway, I thought it was nice for him to display them.
This other "patron" came over and started telling the guy that it was pathetic that those cars weren't more detailed for this show. I was watching all of this and my mouth usually gets me in trouble. I explained to him that this gentleman just purchased those cars and hadn't had the time to detail them the way he wanted. The "patron" just gave us all a dirty look and walked away. The owner thanked me and let me operate the train for 30 minutes.
Anyways, the question is has any of you witnessed anything like this? I am not involved in any clubs but I felt sorry for the guy. He was allowed to run his new train at the show and someone chastized hime for.
Will
sounds like you have had a close encounter with a "funny hat" type. i have run into this type in hobby shops back when we had them. they usually take up counter space and the owner's time by holding court and lecturing on the thread pitch of GP-7 door hinge bolts or some other asinine subject.
i think a lot of them live in their automobiles and some are like goats, you can smell where they have been.
after all, we are only as God made us and some of us are much, much worse.
grizlump (grumpy german)
It's sad but is also a part of the hobby that rude over zealous rivet counters that think they are model railroad geniuses and legends in their own minds can give others just having fun in this hobby so much grief.
We have some of those types in this area. We have this one particular guy that is extremely rude and the biggest know -it-all about anything train related there is but when you visit his layout, never has one of his trains made it even one lap around the his layout without shorting out or derailing. Go figure.....but usually, there's always one in every crowd....chuck
Imagine what would've happened if he put a Tyco GG-1 on the track with old Life-Like passenger cars.
Some people have it in their head that everything they know is always best. Those people annoy me. But, those people will always be around somewhere, so I've just learned to deal with it. And besides, I'm the one who really knows what's best all the time!
_________________________________________________________________
I wish I could have said, as the owner of the Walthers cars, "Yes, they aren't perfectly and absolutely detailed, so it would be great if you could bring your passenger cars here to run. When can we expect you? It would be great to "wow" the crowd."
Mark
My approach is to look at the person, wait a few seconds, and then say, slowly, "....and...?" He may say something more, in which case he will be met by another pause, and another, louder, "...AND...!!?"
Even the most obtuse of basement dwellers gets it by the second time.
-Crandell
My dad and I were at a store waiting to check out. It was a particularly busy day and the store was short staffed so the lines got a little long. Most people were content and the lines were going fairly smooth. In front of us there was a lady just having a bad time with it, complaining and wining like a two year old. My dad, in his usuall laid back demeanor looked her in the eye, sttod back a second, looked again with a surprised look on his face and exclaimed...WOW! I did not recognise you. The ladies reaction was...HUH. Dad then said, loud enough for the whole store to hear, You are the person the world revolvs around. The lady got so mad she threw her purchases on the ground and stormed out of the store to a loud ovation from the rest of the customers
wholeman This other "patron" came over and started telling the guy that it was pathetic that those cars weren't more detailed for this show. I was watching all of this and my mouth usually gets me in trouble. I explained to him that this gentleman just purchased those cars and hadn't had the time to detail them the way he wanted. The "patron" just gave us all a dirty look and walked away. The owner thanked me and let me operate the train for 30 minutes. Anyways, the question is has any of you witnessed anything like this? I am not involved in any clubs but I felt sorry for the guy. He was allowed to run his new train at the show and someone chastized hime for.
I find it kind of funny that there are people who will lecture someone on how something is not to prototype when the fellow buyiing the thing is usually someone who details the pieces to their specifications. ASSUMING is the name of the game, I guess.
So it is with Rivit Counters. Not all Rivit Counters do the boor thing. I know of several so called rivit counters who are extremely helpful and do not act like unto a boor---like one I know.
This boor-- I want to be quite plain here that I'm talking about boorish behaviour and not someone's rivit counting-- has a whole bunch of people basically scared to go into this one fellows open house any more. Why? Not only does he smell of goat--maybe he sleeps in a goat pen--but he is so loud in his insulting of others layouts that all and sundry in the neighbourhood could hear him. At one time I thought it was his hearing that was off but he heard me muttering to someone else one night and proceeded to lecture me on listening when others were talking. Not that anyone else was---couldn't be heard over his volume anyways. A few minutes of this--and here I sat trying to look behind him for the volume control---no ---no volume control--so I announced that he had no volume control---which broke everyone up into laughter----and he tromped off into the night----have not seen him back but---but---but
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
I stay pretty quiet at trainshows, try to enjoy and learn and ignore the bores. However, when I am on tour at home, I post a sign saying "we are glad to have you visit the railroad. If you have questions, please feel free to ask. If you want to offer advice, please do so, but any insulting language, foul language, or overbearing demeanor will be grounds for eviction from the premises. We are here to enjoy and learn from each other, nothing more, nothing less."
I haven't had to evict anyone yet, but come close a couple of times. If you have visitors over for a social evening, you don't expect to have them complain about the food, bathroom facilities or other items, the same courtesy should apply to the hobby area.
Bob
pike-62...WOW! I did not recognise you. The ladies reaction was...HUH. Dad then said, loud enough for the whole store to hear, You are the person the world revolvs around.
Now THAT's good!
99% of all MRR's are great people who really don't care how you approach the hobby, what you run, how you run it or how it looks. Unless of course you ask for help, or they get the feeling you might want some assistance by the way you talk and they may offer assistance. They want to be nice and yet helpful. They believe it's your RR and if you enjoy it, well then great. After all the more people who buy MRR stuff, the longer the manufacturers and hobby shops will stay open. Besides, it's not like they have to lay around and look at my layout every day. But....... as in every hobby, sport and profession, there is the 1 % who we hear the most from. The expert. That self appointed Director of The Way Things Should Be Done. You know the one and only way. Yes they annoy me, but I feel more sorry for them than anything. I mean, do they really have that much of an ego problem, a feeling of being less than adequate in who knows what, that they must inflick on everyone how much they know or how much better they are than others? ( or at least think they are) Usually these are also the people who sit around with the only correct outlook on every subject they come across. I know a few myself and they really are nice people, you just dread talking to them for any length of time because you know you'll be getting a lecture about which direction your rain gage is facing, a stern chastising about the brand of tires I run or the.... . You get the idea. We just nod our heads and let them blow.
Todd
Central Illinoyz
In order to keep my position as Master and Supreme Ruler of the House, I don't argue with my wife.
I'm a small town boy. A product of two people from even smaller towns. I don’t talk on topic….. I just talk.
My club operates our modular layout at several shows each year. We always get our share of obnoxious, rivet counting, know it all PITA viewers. We try to answer their questions and be polite and fortunatly they move on and don't hang around too long. We also get our share of people who don't know what soap and hot water are for.
On the other hand we have been to many shows as viewers ourselves and have found that layout operators can be just as obnoxious and short tempered when asked simple questions about their layout, rolling stock or scenic materials. I don't ask questions anymore unless it is to someone I know because some people ignore them and turn away or give an answer that had nothing to do with the question. When my club is operating at a show we are very outgoing with viewers and even allow people to test run a purchase on our layouts. Fortunatly most of the people i've met through the hobby are pleasant and do much to promote the hobby.
I agree with all that everyone else had to say. Being new into this hobby, and with alot to learn, it can be very intimidating to ask questions, when you have the know-it-all types out there. Sometimes we just stand back and don't ask the questions. I have found in my area a fantastic hobby and train shop the the man runs out of the back of his house. He has built a shop in the back. When you go in the first thing someone does is welcome you in, and then you hear, there is fresh coffee in the back or cold soda in the fridge, help yourself! They are very helpful if you have a question, and usually on Saturday afternoons there are quite a few regulars hangin around, and they are just as helpful. Just a great pleasant experiance from a true " local hobby shop".
Musicians have a phrase that nicely captures this situation (with reference to music critics):
"Those who can, do.
Those who can't, review."
Sad to say but my two beloved hobbies, model railroading and railfanning, both attract a variety of sad individual who clings desperately to some item of specialized knowledge, however minute, and then looks for opportunities to demonstrate it. Interestingly you see surprisingly little of that on these forums maybe because there is such a wolf pack of commentators laying in wait ....
I sense that some of the military model types are even more extreme in this, but I have no direct knowledge of that. We won't even discuss JFK conspiracy experts ....
Having said that, genuine informed criticism by someone who actually can achieve and has achieved what they talk about also stings when you are on the receiving end, so we have to be receptive when it is warranted. A rivet counter is one thing. A rivet counter who actually places the right number of rivets on his own stuff is quite another. If Tony Koester or Ted Culotta visited my basement I suspect I'd hear plenty of commentary about my freight cars and their accuracy or lack thereof ("quick -- find me a prototype photo of a boxcar door with huge claws on the bottom!"). The difference is, if I was adult enough I would like to think I'd be taking notes like crazy.
Nobody needs even a John Allen to tell them that out-of-the-box passenger cars on their maiden run don't have lights or interiors or weathering and all have the same number.
Dave Nelson
Another irritating type that one might encounter at train shows is the pushy guy trying to sell his 25 year old trains at what is supposedly "bargain prices" for "high quality collector's items". $10 for this, $25 for that, $5 for this. Of course you look at his stuff and you see
A. Shiny plastic Bachmann or Life Like toy line rolling stock with talgo trucks and plastic wheels.
B. Or better yet, the F-units with the huge windhshields, pancake motor and traction tires.
I encountered a clown like this at a Sarasota train show a few years ago. About 50-something, very loud and obnoxious. If you tried to bargain with him he yelled at you loudly, "OK, forget it! Go away!". Though irritated,I kept my cool. By the end of the show, I noticed he still had most of his stuff.
"I like my Pullman Standards & Budds in Stainless Steel flavors, thank you!"
retsignalmtrMy club operates our modular layout at several shows each year. We always get our share of obnoxious, rivet counting, know it all PITA viewers. We try to answer their questions and be polite and fortunatly they move on and don't hang around too long. We also get our share of people who don't know what soap and hot water are for.
Hmmm-- I see a new business venture in the makings here.... "private-label" soaps from your RR's "First Class" and "Club Cars", individually-wrapped with your RR's logo or herald and slogan... to sell, or give-away (at your option) at public gatherings, exhibitions and train shows. Painstakingly researched and carefully crafted to meet even the most out-spoken rivet-counter's standards and criteria. Also handy for that occasional critic with the flair for colorful four-letter language. (Can be applied either orally or as a suppository, as circumstances warrant).
You may also be interested in some of our other products such as our Deluxe Private-Label Soap which comes pre-attached to a brick, or our Economy version Private Label Soap which only comes with the brick.
TMarsh 99% of all MRR's are great people who really don't care how you approach the hobby, what you run, how you run it or how it looks. .... But....... as in every hobby, sport and profession, there is the 1 % who we hear the most from. The expert. That self appointed Director of The Way Things Should Be Done. You know the one and only way.
99% of all MRR's are great people who really don't care how you approach the hobby, what you run, how you run it or how it looks. .... But....... as in every hobby, sport and profession, there is the 1 % who we hear the most from. The expert. That self appointed Director of The Way Things Should Be Done. You know the one and only way.
Yeah, but boy is that 1% annoying. It's not just a train shows, either. They rear there ugly heads on this site as well. In the last year, I have seen people belittled and told that they will never make the grade as a model railroader because they:
1) have a 4x8 layout
2) use brand x of DCC system
3) prefer not to simulate real operations on their layout, or do something less than full prototypical operaions.
4) use sedum to make trees
5) have unkitbashed structures on their layout.
Probably more. In many cases, they have a point. Yes, there are better ways to use 32 square feet of layout space than a 4x8 oval, but that doesn't mean that anyone who does it is scum. It really kills me when someone posts "I want to have a continuous loop", only to have next dozen or so posters tell him that point to point operations better simulates a real railroad. Personally, I'm always wiling to hear someone's advice for how to do something better, or even how I'm missing out on a potential improvement by not doing something. But those suggestions and advice should be a) solicited, and b) presented as suggestions, not laws engraved on a stone tablet. We all need to keep in mind that one person's jewel is another's quartz crystal.
Sometimes, though people exhibiting boorish behavior can be easily shot down. Last Thursday, I had just completed running a Cub Scout racing event with the other leaders, and was standing and talking to the Cubmaster when a Dad came up and began to complain: "I don't think the loser's bracket was done right, because my son..." At this point, I rudely interrupted by leaning over to the Cubmaster and saying, "Josh, I think I hear someone volunteering to run the next racing event." We never did hear what he thought was wrong with the losers' bracket, because the man disappeared so quickly.
Connecticut Valley Railroad A Branch of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford
"If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right." -- Henry Ford
IMHO, the dyed-in-the-wool nitpicker/rivet counter is a frustrated control freak - "Do it MY way, or else!"
Whenever I post, I try to indicate that it's NOT, "My way, or the highway." I will describe something that works - for me - and then emphasize that my way is not the only way, or even the best of all possible ways. But then, I'm not trying to tell you how YOU should be having fun.
Unfortunately, there are always going to be people who try to make themselves seem more important than they are by putting other people down.
As for 'Mister Goatbarn,' there really isn't much that can be done in a public venue. In private venues, we can simply avoid him.
Chuck (modeling Central Japan in September, 1964 - my way)
I made a sign for my G-scale outdoor layout:
"WELCOME!
If you're here to see or would even like to run one of my trains, welcome!
If you're here to criticize, please take a number. Your number is 23,402,404. I'm now listening to complaint number: 3.
You're welcome to wait until I call your number, but I suggest that you just leave and I'll call you when your number comes up."
But I still get snide remarks about the layout, locomotives, or rolling stock. Some people just never take the hint.
I was new to the hobby and was invited to an open house of a very large S-gauge club. These were mostly older guys with a lot of discretionary income. I was viewing brass cab forwards that cost more than the car I drove there.
One member was operating his all brass NYC 20th Century Limited and it was stunning. As it went by, another member snidely mentioned it wasn't at all accurate (in contrast to his I presumed). Not knowing either way I asked, "Why so?" With a real condescending, almost sneering tone, he said, "The carpet in the observation is the wrong pattern and color."
I was at a loss for words. I could not even see the carpet for heaven's sake.
Back at the office the next day, that became the catch phrase done in a variety of voices and accents.
I torally agree with all of your replys. There are people who think their opinion matters and yours don't. Just look at the opinions page of your local newspaper. I have other people comment on displays, but it was usually things like"That train sure is long" or "Those locomotives are huge."
I took my 7 year old, twin cousins to a show once and one of them said, "That train is dirty. It needs a bath." He was looking at the weathering of a coal train. The operater just busted out laughing. He almost dropped his DCC thottle he was laughing so hard.
wholeman I took my 7 year old, twin cousins to a show once and one of them said, "That train is dirty. It needs a bath." He was looking at the weathering of a coal train. The operater just busted out laughing. He almost dropped his DCC thottle he was laughing so hard.
To quote Yoda, "A wondrous thing is the mind of a child."
About 4 years ago, I took my then 4 year old to a train show. One of the operators was a boy of perhaps 12-13 years old, with really long hair, but no facial hair yet. My son's comment: "Hey, Dad, look what that girl is doing!". Yikes! Next booth.... quickly!
The interesting thing about most of the critical rivet counters...they don't have layouts of their own. I don't know why this is, but it almost always seems to be the case.
Maybe they've never experienced the cost and time limitations that those with layouts have. So they don't know and can't comprehend the meaning of the word compromise.
Matt from Anaheim, CA and Bayfield, COClick Here for my model train photo website
wholemanThis other "patron" came over and started telling the guy that it was pathetic that those cars weren't more detailed for this show.
Now, now. I'm sure this guy's Annie and Clarabell cars were world class, but obviously, collectors' items like those would never leave the sanctity of his home for something as low-class as a train show.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Why would you want to hang out with someone that smells like a goat, anyways?
A rivet-counter I ain't, and don't plan to be one. I have seen just about every shade of modelling in the spectrum, and quite frankly, I can find enough about my own work to whine about without looking for the same in someone else's work. It falls in par with complaining about someone else's wife. Who cares? Just be happy with what you have in front of you in your own corner. As has already been said, life's too short.
RIch
YELLOWJACKET EF-3
We just had a train show this past weekend. I have a GE u30 painted in Paducah & louisvillie colors ( they never had any) It always gets comments, and I also run some of those proto 1000 "popsicle cars" to get a rise out of people.
On another note I had one kid brave enough to ask if he could run a train. he had a happy 30 mins running my trains till his grandparents had to wrench the control from his hand so they could leave.
The "objectionables" aren't confined to your side of the Atlantic. They are everywhere, like the bad odours that some of them exude.
Dennis
Guiys,
One thing though, as mentioned before, we shouldn't turn this into a rivet counter bash thread. It's because of the many down-to-earth rivet counters that enjoy contributing to the hobby that we have the beautifully detailed models from Athearn (genesis), Intermountain, Walthers, Stewart, Atlas, and BLI.
Let's look at the flip side of this coin:
There are plenty of non-modelers that are also rude, obnoxious yahoos that visit a train show or a club with friends and family members that are modelers. Almost immedietly the vinegar starts sloughing out of the mouth "Hey, how much did this train set cost? What?! $200 for that engine? What a waste of money!" Can't they go any faster?!"
I've encountered ignorant saps like these before. But instead of becoming defensive, I've learned to use a little smiling wit, instead. Now I'll ask if they go out drinking regularly, smoke cigarettes, go to strip clubs, or go to music concerts regularly. The majority of the time, the sap will answer yes to at least 2 of these questions. Smiling, I'll ask how much money he/she spends in a year's time on those "habits". What follows is either "uh, uh, well, uh, not that much!" OR silence. By their reaction you'll already know their "waste of money" expenditures are likely much higher than yours! They probably just figured out that, unlike the above mentioned activities, model railroaders get to KEEP AND ENJOY OVER AND OVER the products that they purchase with their hard earned dollars.
TA462 retsignalmtr We also get our share of people who don't know what soap and hot water are for. Ya, what's with that???? Every show we go to we run into a few people like that. There is nothing worse then talking to someone who hasn't had a shower in three days and who's teeth haven't seen a tooth brush in years. I only see (smell) it in the model railroad hobby. Model car builders, slot car racers, R/C guys and even golfers don't smell like some model railroaders do.
retsignalmtr We also get our share of people who don't know what soap and hot water are for.
We also get our share of people who don't know what soap and hot water are for.
Ya, what's with that???? Every show we go to we run into a few people like that. There is nothing worse then talking to someone who hasn't had a shower in three days and who's teeth haven't seen a tooth brush in years. I only see (smell) it in the model railroad hobby. Model car builders, slot car racers, R/C guys and even golfers don't smell like some model railroaders do.
Maybe there car is coal fired and they worked up a sweat firing it to get to the train show
They are just taking "weathering" to another level...