Whats so big about Brass and why do they cost more money then diecast?

[twhite]

markpierce

twhite

I know for brass runners like myself, the past year and a half has been like looking in the window of a candy store.  It's not so much "What can I afford," anymore, it's "Do I really need another one of that particular locomotive model running on my layout?" 

And of course, the answer for me, more often than not, is a resounding YES!

Tom  

Careful, Tom.  You may end up receiving the derogatory label "collector."

Meanwhile, I'll check out Caboose Hobbies's listing of SP locos.

Mark

Mark: 

Caboose is always stronger on Rio Grande locos, but I just checked the SP thread, and it looks relatively healthy as far as consignments.  But of course, it depends on what wheel arrangements you're looking for. 

Tom

[markpierce]

twhite

I know for brass runners like myself, the past year and a half has been like looking in the window of a candy store.  It's not so much "What can I afford," anymore, it's "Do I really need another one of that particular locomotive model running on my layout?" 

And of course, the answer for me, more often than not, is a resounding YES!

Tom  

Careful, Tom.  You may end up receiving the derogatory label "collector."

Meanwhile, I'll check out Caboose Hobbies's listing of SP locos.

Mark

[rjake4454]

If I were in N scale, I could definately see myself going for brass engines because of the general lack availability of steam in N. Also, I would tend to think that brass models are more sturdy, and this is a good thing if you are in very small scales. The detail is much crisper, the model far more durable than plastic.

I just found this tonight, its obviously brass. Apparently, made by Key Imports.

 

[blownout cylinder]

twhite

I'm wondering if the current economic situation hasn't made some of them realize that their 'collections' aren't as big as an investment as they hoped they'd eventually be. 

There are a few closet dealers I work with who have noticed something like that in the past couple of years. Some of this may be related to what is occuring around us now in regards people dumping things in the antique market. Recent example? I now have a Sunset(?) Uintah RR tank steamer coming to me in a few days from one of the dealers---paid a rediculously low price for it too-----heeheehee

[twhite]

blownout cylinder

CNJ831

Let me indicate how extreme the true collectors can be. Someone spoke upstream about knowing an individual who bought two of every brass model he liked, one to hoard and one to run. I can tell you that over the years I've known a couple of fellas who would buy one or two of every variation of a particular brass model run just to collect them, sometimes amounting to 6 or 7 models! They never left the display case

There is a couple up here just like that. One fellow will buy every variation of --say, a Challenger---then buy one of every manufacture of that---including hybrids--"for comparison purposes only" His house is a "Collecter's" dream----most are displayed in still sealed condx. If I find a model of something he is after and he hears about he is like unto a pitbull!!!

Barry: 

I'm wondering if some of those 'collectors' are having some second thoughts these days about their collections.  Reason I say so, is that I deal with Caboose Hobbies pretty exclusively for my brass locos, and their consignment selection has grown like "Topsy" over the past year.  Older brass, and at really reasonable prices.  

I'm wondering if the current economic situation hasn't made some of them realize that their 'collections' aren't as big as an investment as they hoped they'd eventually be. 

I know for brass runners like myself, the past year and a half has been like looking in the window of a candy store.  It's not so much "What can I afford," anymore, it's "Do I really need another one of that particular locomotive model running on my layout?" 

And of course, the answer for me, more often than not, is a resounding YES!

Tom  

 

[joseywales]

I do like this Hiawatha brass that on ebay..a great /awsome looking train..very well detialed and painted...I love how it sits too.. high in the back low in the front ,like our first hotrod cars we had in highschool......769.00 is out of my price range..." mce_src="">

[blownout cylinder]

CNJ831

Let me indicate how extreme the true collectors can be. Someone spoke upstream about knowing an individual who bought two of every brass model he liked, one to hoard and one to run. I can tell you that over the years I've known a couple of fellas who would buy one or two of every variation of a particular brass model run just to collect them, sometimes amounting to 6 or 7 models! They never left the display case

There is a couple up here just like that. One fellow will buy every variation of --say, a Challenger---then buy one of every manufacture of that---including hybrids--"for comparison purposes only" His house is a "Collecter's" dream----most are displayed in still sealed condx. If I find a model of something he is after and he hears about he is like unto a pitbull!!!

[CNJ831]

Paul3

CNJ,
I also concur about the running quality of a good brass steamer.  They can be superb, and can be made to be so if they aren't.  My W&R NH Y-3 USRA 0-8-0 is so smooth it looks like it's running on glass...and it's well over 10 years old.  It's a better puller and a better runner than any P2K USRA 0-8-0...and it looks much better, besides (well, it's "NH USRA" and not generic USRA).

As to the collector vs. runner...  I've been around the hobby for almost 20 years now, and I've been a member of my club for 16 of them.  I've always heard stories about the brass collector who just buys and buys and buys...and never runs them.  Supposedly, there was one such guy in our club before my time who bought two of everything: one to display, and one to remain sealed with "factory air".  However, I never met this person.

My point in all this is perhaps the "runners" outnumber the true "collectors" in pure numbers of people.  However, the true "collectors" purchase far more than all the "runners" combined.  IOW, the collectors are still a majority of the market even tho' they are a minority in the brass community as a whole.  Does that make sense?

Whaddya think?

Paul A. Cutler III
*******************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*******************

Indeed, Paul, I understand what your personal experience implies to you, but one needs to appreciate the complexities associated with drawing such conclusions. Few pure collectors are ever going to show up at a train club to run their brass locos on the layout in the first place. To them, doing so would be largely pointless and in some eyes it might even ruin the value of their pristine models. Thus, as I indicated in my earlier post, most model railroaders are unlikely to today encounter any true brass "collectors", only the brass "operators."

I've been associated with the hobby more than twice as long as yourself and can remember a time when the divide between the so-called collectors and the smaller group of brass operators was much less. I'd have to say that back in the day, maybe around 40 or even 40+ years ago, perhaps half the hobbyists I knew owned at least one piece of brass. Most of these guys had brass examples of their favorite engine(s) and many a complete famous train (the 20th Century, the Daylight, etc.)...and rare was the individual who would ever run them, most being kept in their unpainted brass state by the way. There was also a period when brass models were considered an investment and painting, or running them, lowered their vaulue.

Soaring pricing shrank the marketplace for brass trains over the years, driving out most of the more casual buyers. To judge by what one sees in the pages of such magazines as MR down through the years, the serious collectors tended to separate themselves increasingly from the modeling hobby folks, until they just about disappeared from sight altogether...but they were still there, nevertheless.

Let me indicate how extreme the true collectors can be. Someone spoke upstream about knowing an individual who bought two of every brass model he liked, one to hoard and one to run. I can tell you that over the years I've known a couple of fellas who would buy one or two of every variation of a particular brass model run just to collect them, sometimes amounting to 6 or 7 models! They never left the display case.

As I've indicated before, what one sees on the surface of our hobby may not be reflective of what's really going on as compared to when one looks at the situation in depth. I might add that at one time, years ago, I was one of those "brass collectors",  with an extensive collection of my own... and not a single model ever turned a wheel on the layout! Nowadays I'm just the opposite, a true modeler, but that's why I happen to be familiar with both sides of this coin.

CNJ831  

[blownout cylinder]

andrechapelon

cjcrescent

CNJ831

 

....Very often they collect for reasons far outside those that "model railroaders" do and which have no connection to operating them. Be asured, the guys paying $2,000 , $3,000 and more (often much more!) for quality brass models are simply not doing anything but displaying them.

CNJ831

 

I'm not disagreeing with you CNJ, but to be honest, I've never known a brass "collector" that didn't run their brass.

In fact we have one guy here in town that thinks nothing of after having bought the brass, sending it to someone to make it mechanically perfect, then to another guy to make the details completely correct for that engine, and then sending it to another guy to paint it. He routinely will spend $7500 to $8000 to get his stuff as he wants it. It is O scale at that. He runs his brass constantly! I have some pix of his layout. If I can find them, I'll scan them and get them up.

So tell me. Does this guy run his own equipment or does he pay someone else to do THAT for him?

You'll have to excuse the sarcasm. After fixing my lawnmower and mowing my own lawn, I don't have much patience (or respect) for people who do no more than pay other people to do things for them.

Andre

Yoiks!! And here I thought TWhite ran his! Sheeeesh!! I have 2 brass doodlebugs and a motley USRA 2-8-0 thing that still runs nicely----mind that one was a little in need of TLC when I got the dang thing!!

And yes, Andre, I'd be a little cranked about the paying to get someone else to work on them--that sounds like the guys who'll go and buy a turn key hot rod and have to pay everyone to do all the work----

[climaxpwr]

Andre, no need to be sarcastic, many modelers dont have the "ablity" to fine tune brass to run as good as it looks or to properly unsolder and resolder details to correct any minor flaws.  But they have the disposable income to pay someone who does.  I prefer older brass models, the detail is perfect for me, I enjoy the tinkering to make them run well again, and the drives in the models I choose are very robust, with most only needed a simple cleaning and complete relubing to remove the old stiff grease.   For one 1 of the latest releases from MTH will all the toys, I have 3 beautifull models from PFM/United that run like fine swiss watches.  If I had a larger sum of disposable income, I would buy the rolex quality stuff from Division Point, or W&R Enterprises or PSC.  A Division Point NKP Berkshire would be high on that list, but I can buy several older PFM's for what 1 of those DP Berk's go for.   As long as your enjoying what you buy and run, who cares what its made of, Plastic, Brass or Diecast.  Whats important is having fun!  

[andrechapelon]

cjcrescent

CNJ831

 

....Very often they collect for reasons far outside those that "model railroaders" do and which have no connection to operating them. Be asured, the guys paying $2,000 , $3,000 and more (often much more!) for quality brass models are simply not doing anything but displaying them.

CNJ831

 

I'm not disagreeing with you CNJ, but to be honest, I've never known a brass "collector" that didn't run their brass.

In fact we have one guy here in town that thinks nothing of after having bought the brass, sending it to someone to make it mechanically perfect, then to another guy to make the details completely correct for that engine, and then sending it to another guy to paint it. He routinely will spend $7500 to $8000 to get his stuff as he wants it. It is O scale at that. He runs his brass constantly! I have some pix of his layout. If I can find them, I'll scan them and get them up.

So tell me. Does this guy run his own equipment or does he pay someone else to do THAT for him?

You'll have to excuse the sarcasm. After fixing my lawnmower and mowing my own lawn, I don't have much patience (or respect) for people who do no more than pay other people to do things for them.

Andre

[Paul3]

CNJ,
I also concur about the running quality of a good brass steamer.  They can be superb, and can be made to be so if they aren't.  My W&R NH Y-3 USRA 0-8-0 is so smooth it looks like it's running on glass...and it's well over 10 years old.  It's a better puller and a better runner than any P2K USRA 0-8-0...and it looks much better, besides (well, it's "NH USRA" and not generic USRA).

As to the collector vs. runner...  I've been around the hobby for almost 20 years now, and I've been a member of my club for 16 of them.  I've always heard stories about the brass collector who just buys and buys and buys...and never runs them.  Supposedly, there was one such guy in our club before my time who bought two of everything: one to display, and one to remain sealed with "factory air".  However, I never met this person.

Meanwhile, out of the 100+ people that have been members of my club in the past 16 years or so that I have met, I can think of many that had brass equipment...but they all ran them at least once or twice.  It's true they don't run them that often, but that's mostly due to the concerns over damage and theft that may occur if brass is left on the layout.

Of the two biggest brass owners in our club, one was a big-time collector (RIP) that would modify his brass to make them more accurate or to even backdate them by lopping off trucks and adding detail (a NH EP-1 got this treatment).  The other is currently adding DCC decoders to his 60+ brass loco fleet.  Neither one fits the stereotype of the brass collector who buys for display only that we all think of when we talk about this.  Not to say they don't exist, but they probably aren't ones to join a club in the first place.

My point in all this is perhaps the "runners" outnumber the true "collectors" in pure numbers of people.  However, the true "collectors" purchase far more than all the "runners" combined.  IOW, the collectors are still a majority of the market even tho' they are a minority in the brass community as a whole.  Does that make sense?

I got this idea when I was told the origin of Reboxx.  Supposedly, the creator of the company was/is incredibly wealthy, and became a huge UP fan.  He began to buy one of every loco the UP ever had in HO scale brass.  Not just one of every type, but one of every loco number.  If the UP had 1000 SD70's, he bought 1000 HO SD70's.  And so on.  Well, he created Reboxx so that he could have quality brass replacement boxes for his collection, and sold the extras off to the used brass market.  I talked to one person who saw his warehouse full of brass locos and apparently it's huge (as you can imagine).  Each loco was still in the box.  I doubt many have ever been run.  How many "runners" would you have to come up with to simply equal this guy's massive collection?  A "runner" might have 10 to 50 brass locos that he can run consistantly (hey, there's only so many hours in a day).  You'd have to have a lot of those people to equal the total roster of all UP locos ever made.

Whaddya think?

Paul A. Cutler III
*******************
Weather Or No Go New Haven
*******************

[tstage]

I've heard that Howard Zane has a fairly substantial collection of brass.  (Someone mentioned possibly upwards of $1M?)  However big, I'd be curious to find out what percentage of his brass collection actually - if ever, make it to his layout.

Tom

[cjcrescent]

CNJ831

 

....Very often they collect for reasons far outside those that "model railroaders" do and which have no connection to operating them. Be asured, the guys paying $2,000 , $3,000 and more (often much more!) for quality brass models are simply not doing anything but displaying them.

CNJ831

 

I'm not disagreeing with you CNJ, but to be honest, I've never known a brass "collector" that didn't run their brass.

In fact we have one guy here in town that thinks nothing of after having bought the brass, sending it to someone to make it mechanically perfect, then to another guy to make the details completely correct for that engine, and then sending it to another guy to paint it. He routinely will spend $7500 to $8000 to get his stuff as he wants it. It is O scale at that. He runs his brass constantly! I have some pix of his layout. If I can find them, I'll scan them and get them up.

[pastorbob]

I bought brass diesels back in the days when the selection from Athearn, et al was not very great, and the brass boys had some Santa Fe diesels I wanted.  I still have two, but most of them either didn't run good to start with or eventually became problematic.  One derailed and hit the floor, so it was gone.

That is not to say that there isn't some good running brass today, but I can find what I want in the plastics department now, and operation is my main thing.  I would rather have 4 or 5 well detailed, good running plastic than one mediocre brass diesel.  I have been able to build a good stable of ATSF and a few foreign for operations at much less money.

Bob

[CNJ831]

cjcrescent

scottychaos

 and ran much worse, than plastic..so, more money for less detailed very poor running models? sign me up! ;)

Scot

 

In all my years of owning brass, this is one of two comments that have always demonstrated to me that the person giving this comment, never owned brass or only owned one or two pieces.

The other comment was given by Tstage (Tom), who stated most brass was not operated but just displayed. There are no modelers in the people I know that own brass, (very many nationwide), have ever just displayed their brass. Brass was built to operate and the vast majority of owners do just that. When someone refers to the collecting and displaying of brass, it refers to a small minority in the hobby.

TWhite said it best. When you are trying to reproduce a railroad roster that was not PRR, NYC, SF, etc you pretty much have to run brass. How many plastic SRR Ps4's, Ms4's, Ls2's or Ss-1's are availavble? ZERO 

While I would most definitely concur with Cjcrescent regarding his initial statement that anyone making the sort of statement Scot did has certainly never owned, or maybe ever seen, a piece of quality brass (I'm talking about steam), I would have to just as strongly disagree with Carey's second statement regarding just exactly who buys brass.

Over my long tenure in the hobby, starting from a time when imported brass locomotives were a relatively new item, I can say that I have encounter many, many individuals who simply collected brass models of all kinds - most of you would be amazed at how many types of brass models there are - and never gave a thought to doing other than displaying them. The true nature of this situation has been touched upon briefly here in the past and several individuals have pointed out that on model railroading forums about the only people you will hear from in brass discussions are the brass operators...and that doesn't necessarily make them representative of those in the brass market in general. In fact, the great majority of those who enjoy brass are not model railroaders in the sense that we are and are not to be found posting here. Very often they collect for reasons far outside those that "model railroaders" do and which have no connection to operating them. Be asured, the guys paying $2,000 , $3,000 and more (often much more!) for quality brass models are simply not doing anything but displaying them.

CNJ831

 

[twhite]

markpierce

Tell 'em Tom!

Just received these "bad boy" Baldwins.  How can one resist their brutish looks?

 

Will be great for the Vallejo Junction turn, or on some SP branchline, no?   Humpyard duty is cruel.

Mark

Mark: 

In a word:  WOW! 

Tom

[tstage]

joseywales

From what I heard ,you cant get replacement parts for those BLI..

Josey,

Not according to the parts orders e-mail address on BLI's Customer Service page.

Thats why I'm seeing them pop up on ebay..After your 2 year warnanty is up your *** for fixing anything wrong with them after that.. plus there soldout in most places

No.  I think the reason you're seeing BLI bought and sold on eBay is that people are interested in purchasing it; not unloading it.

Tom

[Anonymous]

joseywales

What so big about brass and why are they more money then diecast?

Oh my, do you suppose the OP has run for cover yet?  He might as well have asked why people bother with those tiny N scale trains that don't have any detail.

[cjcrescent]

scottychaos

 and ran much worse, than plastic..so, more money for less detailed very poor running models? sign me up! ;)

Scot

 

In all my years of owning brass, this is one of two comments that have always demonstrated to me that the person giving this comment, never owned brass or only owned one or two pieces.

The other comment was given by Tstage (Tom), who stated most brass was not operated but just displayed. There are no modelers in the people I know that own brass, (very many nationwide), have ever just displayed their brass. Brass was built to operate and the vast majority of owners do just that. When someone refers to the collecting and displaying of brass, it refers to a small minority in the hobby.

TWhite said it best. When you are trying to reproduce a railroad roster that was not PRR, NYC, SF, etc you pretty much have to run brass. How many plastic SRR Ps4's, Ms4's, Ls2's or Ss-1's are availavble? ZERO 

[markpierce]

Tell 'em Tom!

Just received these "bad boy" Baldwins.  How can one resist their brutish looks?

 

Will be great for the Vallejo Junction turn, or on some SP branchline, no?   Humpyard duty is cruel.

Mark

[joseywales]

From what I heard ,you cant get replacement parts for those BLI.. Thats why I'm seeing them pop up on ebay..After your 2 year warnanty is up your *** for fixing anything wrong with them after that.. plus there soldout in most places..got my train in black primer and together..looks good..for a 80.00 train..

 

[twhite]

Okay, here I go. 

Why brass? 

I model Rio Grande standard gauge steam.

Photo says it all. 

The locomotive on the upper track is a Proto 2000 USRA clone Rio Grande 2-8-8-2.  Exquisitely detailed.  Smooth runner.  Very decent puller.  It is currently the ONLY Rio Grande steamer available in plastic.  And will probably remain so in the forseeable future, simply because it is a wheel arrangement of a popular type of articulated that can be mass produced with several body styles. 

Loco on the lower track is a Key brass model of a Rio Grande 1600 class 3-cylinder 4-8-2.  It is one of about 30 different brass Rio Grande locos on my MR because Rio Grande is AVAILABLE in brass, either new or used, and Rio Grande happens to be somewhat of a 'niche' railroad to model, at least in steam.  It ain't PRR, N&W or UP, it's Rio Grande.  And the locomotives are different.  And probably none of them would be 'best-sellers' like other, more popular railroads. 

So I go brass.  Oh yah, and I do have a hybrid brass/diecast.  It's an older Oriental Limited "Powerhouse" model of the same USRA clone 2-8-8-2 as in the photo.  Not nearly as exquisitely detailed (though I'm curing that with super-detail castings), but it will outpull the Proto by about four times and runs just as smooth. 

So when you come right down to it, it's not what's so BIG about brass, it's what you get to fill out the roster of the particular railroad you model.  In my case, it's brass.  And darned good running brass at that.

And frankly, I haven't looked back at all.

Tom  

[Darth Santa Fe]

By the way, not all brass is really expensive. I got a Samhongsa/Westside PRR 1223 4-4-0 from around 1980 for about $180. After a tune-up and a new version of the coreless motor originally used, it's one of my best detailed, best running steam engines I've ever had.

It's still not quite the detail the new stuff has, but it's still excellent. And the stock mechanism is top-quality, ultra smooth, and just about silent.

And then there's my 60s Tenshodo GP20 I got for $50, which is a work in progress right now.

After giving it a really good tune-up and adding a coreless motor with a flywheel, it runs as good as any modern high-end diesel, but with a little gear tower whine. The detail is worse than a Tyco/Mantua GP20 from the same time though, and I'm working to fix that a little.

The famous open-frame motor that causes so much noise and draws so much current in old brass.

[tstage]

Josey,

While the Bowser kits come with brass detail parts, the die-cast boiler is a zinc casting, not brass.  (See description under #529 PRR T1 Loco and Tender Kit.)  That's why the quality doesn't compare.

Tom

[rjake4454]

joseywales

man it to me alot of money to spend,yes if your desperate in getting a certian model and RR train..Now on my Bowser T1 its a 1998 kit..this is a revamped kit.. but the brass casting is not the greatest quality..for a super detial kit is 75.00.to me  it sould be alot better casted for that price..yes I like the brass T1 it looks great..but to rich for my blood..

You should try to get the Broadway T1 if you can afford it in the future. Its expensive, but its nearly just as detailed as brass for half the cost, plus you get sound and DCC.

Its my favorite engine by Broadway.

[joseywales]

man it to me alot of money to spend,yes if your desperate in getting a certian model and RR train..Now on my Bowser T1 its a 1998 kit..this is a revamped kit.. but the brass casting is not the greatest quality..for a super detial kit is 75.00.to me  it sould be alot better casted for that price..yes I like the brass T1 it looks great..but to rich for my blood..

[RDG1519]

Many diesels are not available in plastic or diecast. This RDG SW is a Samhongsa from the '90's with a can motor. I use a LokSound 3.5 with custom Winton 201 sound (from Litchfield Station). The carbody has not been tightened down yet. Also glazing and weathering is next.

I am finnishing up an ALCO Models ALCO T-6 in Penn Central. Another great switcher that no one has made in plastic. This had an open frame motor and now has a NWSL can motor. Superb performance. Both the RDG SW and the PC T-6 have a little gear cladder but not that you can't put up with it.

I have just purchased an Oriental NW-2 with full length louvers in the side hood doors (no space for letterboard). This will be RDG 102, a locomotive I photgraphed in Philly at Jack Frost Sugar in 1973. Other than Kato who makes an NW-2? It has no louvers and is ok only for early RDG and CNJ units as an example. The 102 I photographed was a late NW-2.

If you Model RDG and CNJ steam your only option is brass.

[CAZEPHYR]

doctorwayne

scottychaos

I have never understood the "allure of brass"..

back when I was doing HO scale in the 80's, brass was more expensive, much LESS detailed, and ran much worse, than plastic..so, more money for less detailed very poor running models? sign me up! ;)

Today, from what I have seen, its still the same..brass diesels still look very clunky and crude, compared to plastic diesels..There are a lot of steam models of specific prototypes that have never been offered in plastic, so in that one area I can see a benefit to brass..otherwise, no.

Scot

 

Here's one of them:

Superb running capabilities, too - probably the best that I've ever seen in steam.

Wayne

 

 

Wayne

 

The picture is very good and if you had some steam for effect, it could be close to real. 

Thanks

CZ