What so big about brass and why are they more money then diecast?
Search the forums, there is hardly a question that has not been answered already. A recent thread is here.
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Yup. What GearedSteam said. In fact, if you check about two or three pages back on this particular forum, you'll probably find about two or three threads on brass locos. They've been popping up pretty frequently, lately. Most of the answers you need will be there.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Josey,
IMO, I would say mostly for the following reasons:
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Addtionally, the material, brass, is more costly to produce and to use and machine than is the equivalent volume of plastic. We may not be talking much, but it is not inconsiderable.
-Crandell
ya I dont care for the plastic fantastic trains.. I'm more into the diecast....Bass as more detailed?? In my opion is not that greatly..
after seeing the super detail parts on this Bowser PRR T1 Duplex,I'm not that impressed..I seen better cast job on diecast....You can get great detail in diecast...I saw one company sell's out of production brass trains..Man a HO PRR T1 Duplex going for 1100-1300 painted!!!!..Thats nuts! Would be better off buying a big O gage T1 lional Duplex for that price..I've been out of model railroading 11 years..I wasnt to heavly into trains,meanning I'd only had 7 trains in my life time..now my grandpa was a big big into model trains had over 10+ O gage lionals.and maybe more other ones I didnt know he's owned... only took them out for christmass or when I was sick....I has three cheap HO's.. My real yrains I has 1 lional s2 turbine old version o27..bought my first MHT first ed challanger and the diesel turbine and the daylight..
joseywalesI'm more into the diecast....Bass as more detailed?? In my opion is not that greatly.. after seeing the super detail parts on this Bowser PRR T1 Duplex,I'm not that impressed..I seen better cast job on diecast....
after seeing the super detail parts on this Bowser PRR T1 Duplex,I'm not that impressed..I seen better cast job on diecast....
The detail depends on the brass. A lot of the stuff from the 50s through some of the 70s was pretty awful. The 70s through the 80s was great. The brass from the 90s to now is incredible. There's some brass that's so well detailed and so finely done that not even the best plastic and diecast can compare for a moment. Now if only I could afford that really good stuff...
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joseywales ya I dont care for the plastic fantastic trains.. I'm more into the diecast....Bass as more detailed?? In my opion is not that greatly.. after seeing the super detail parts on this Bowser PRR T1 Duplex,I'm not that impressed..I seen better cast job on diecast....You can get great detail in diecast...I saw one company sell's out of production brass trains..Man a HO PRR T1 Duplex going for 1100-1300 painted!!!!..Thats nuts! Would be better off buying a big O gage T1 lional Duplex for that price
after seeing the super detail parts on this Bowser PRR T1 Duplex,I'm not that impressed..I seen better cast job on diecast....You can get great detail in diecast...I saw one company sell's out of production brass trains..Man a HO PRR T1 Duplex going for 1100-1300 painted!!!!..Thats nuts! Would be better off buying a big O gage T1 lional Duplex for that price
I completely agree. My thoughts exactly. I would definately buy the lionel die cast version, it would be fun to run around the living room on fastrack! Plus it smokes, has sound, and runs beautifully, not to mention its TMCC equipped. With my experience in having the Lionel S1 6-4-4-6 duplex, you don't even notice the third rail, you feel like you are right there at the railroad when you are laying on your living room floor, hearing the roar and feelling the rumble against your ear as the duplex steam approaches.
I agree too, that some of the older lionel o27 stuff has a nice heft to it and feels more like a train, and even without the best sound, you still hear that roar across the 3 rail track that you can set up in so many different ways.
Don't get me wrong, brass is great for those who like it and can afford, but its just not for me. Although I love BLI's brass hyrbids, thats as far as I will go into brass territory.
I will say though, if I ever had the money, I think I would finally give in to buy the HO brass S1 duplex put out by Challenger. The detail on that thing is amazing. But as exception, I might just keep it in a display case most of the time!
Well, if one wants to have a few "choo-choos" on one's layout, brass is unnecessary. But if a prototypical roster of steam locomotives is desired, it is most likely mandatory for one to acquire brass locomotives. Steam locomotives were infinite in their variety, something that mass-produced models can never recreate.
Mark
tstage Josey, IMO, I would say mostly for the following reasons: Highly detailed and handcrafted VERY small runs Sometimes unusual and/or unique locomotives, which probably wouldn't fair well in a large consumer market Bought to be collected or displayed rather than run on a layout Tom
Tom, speaking of extremely limited runs on some very unique engines, are you aware of any brass HO Q1's out there?
I swear I see an HO Q1 in this pic, it has to be brass right? Look in the roundhouse, its the engine to the far right, I can tell because of the single stripe down the streamlined tender. (Also, if you look carefully to the far left, there appears to be an S2 turbine. Any idea on who the heck makes these models? If I were to build a yard like this, I very wel may want some of these mostly for display purposes, but I can't even imagine how much they cost factory painted.... They are really amazing models though, I love those pennsy retro steamers that you can't find anywhere else. BTW, the picture is small, so you can't see it that well, but I saved it to My Pictures and then zoomed in, you can see the detail much better.
Brass is expensive. I own two pieces one is an Sn2 Forney and the other is an Sn2 parlor car. AFAIK these are the only locomotives and passenger cars available in Sn2, kit or RTR. I have these to get started until I can kitbash and scratchbuild others. The sales potential would never justify the expense of diecast (these do not appear to be selling out quickly even in the limited numbers imported). So brass is the only viable alternative.
Enjoy
Paul
The quality of detail, either die cast or (as is the case for most brass detail parts) "lost wax" casting, is in the original molding and tooling. I don't know if there is any or much inherent superiority to one versus the other although brass holds detail very well. Lost wax castings usually involve centrifugal force to get the brass into every nook and cranny rather than rely on molten metal just flowing into the caveties. (With plastic castings they use injection moldeing to force the material.) That force also leads to sharpness of detail.
Some brass locomotive parts are "coined" meaning they are stamped with detail rather in the way a penny is stamped to create the detail. truck sideframes are an example.
There are also inherent limits to the detail that can be diecast on. Take a sand pipe for example. On a brass locomotive that is a separate piece of shaped wire. On some of the older die cast steam locomotives, such as Mantua, it was molded in place, in which case the sand pipe was actually shaped more like a letter D than like a letter O, stuck onto the side of the boiler. In more advanced die castings, they can actuall get more of the fully rounded look of a pipe, but for obvious reasons if it is cast onto the boiler, it can never be actually totally rounded.
A well made die can run off die cast boilers for half a century or more, witness the Mantua line. That tooling has long since paid for itself. Hand crafted brass engines use jigs and patterns that have a shorter life span and -- quite intentionally -- it is the limited run that creates scarcity and value and high cost. The recent trend has been to seemingly retire die cast tooling long before its useful life is over, again to encourage purchase early on rather than over decades.
Dave Nelson
joseywales ya I dont care for the plastic fantastic trains.. I'm more into the diecast....Bass as more detailed?? In my opion is not that greatly.. after seeing the super detail parts on this Bowser PRR T1 Duplex,I'm not that impressed..I seen better cast job on diecast....You can get great detail in diecast...I saw one company sell's out of production brass trains..Man a HO PRR T1 Duplex going for 1100-1300 painted!!!!..Thats nuts! Would be better off buying a big O gage T1 lional Duplex for that price..I've been out of model railroading 11 years..I wasnt to heavly into trains,meanning I'd only had 7 trains in my life time..now my grandpa was a big big into model trains had over 10+ O gage lionals.and maybe more other ones I didnt know he's owned... only took them out for christmass or when I was sick....I has three cheap HO's.. My real yrains I has 1 lional s2 turbine old version o27..bought my first MHT first ed challanger and the diesel turbine and the daylight..
Well the Bowser engines aren't brass, they're diecast boilers originally made 50+ years ago. In pictures they probably look pretty good once the kit has been built and painted, but the detailing is hardly up to brass standards.
It's important to remember that steam engines were built very differently from diesels. Diesels are like cars, they builders make a certain set of locomotive types and you choose which one you want to buy. Steam engines were done with the builder and the railroad getting together and making out blueprints to determine what the engine would look like, so each railroad's engines differed from each other's engines in the detailing and design, even in engines of similar size and wheel arrangements. In modelling, it's possible to make limited run models of specific engines as built for a specific railroad. Die-cast or plastic engines tend to be "generic" engines painted for different railroads, with perhaps an extra detail or two added to make it closer to the real railroad's engine.
It's true that builders like BLI and PSC and even MTH have created some very high quality engines that kinda blur the line between brass and more traditional ready-to-run engines, but that doesn't mean that brass is obsolete or is going to die out any time soon.
Sorry, this doesn't really address your question.
But without diecast choo choos there would be no model train industry. Only the volume of sales and interest in the hobby generated by the prices of diecast models creates enough purchasing power to maintain all the ancillary industry from the local hobby shops to the layout and scenery makers.
If brass were the only option, there would be no track to run it on, no trees to put along the track and no stations to pull into.
You say, "Yah but I could do all that stuff in DIY fashion." That's not a nation-wide pastime. That's a few dozen wealthy individuals with too much time on their hands.
I have never understood the "allure of brass"..
back when I was doing HO scale in the 80's, brass was more expensive, much LESS detailed, and ran much worse, than plastic..so, more money for less detailed very poor running models? sign me up! ;)
Today, from what I have seen, its still the same..brass diesels still look very clunky and crude, compared to plastic diesels..There are a lot of steam models of specific prototypes that have never been offered in plastic, so in that one area I can see a benefit to brass..otherwise, no.
Scot
joseywalesYou can get great detail in diecast...I saw one company sell's out of production brass trains..Man a HO PRR T1 Duplex going for 1100-1300 painted!!!!..Thats nuts! Would be better off buying a big O gage T1 lional Duplex for that price..
It is all relative to today's money. All of the latest HO PSC NP A2, A3 and A4 class 4-8-4's are list priced at $2045 each. They are the best detailed and the best quality I have seen in forty two years of buying the best HO model trains, but none of the dealers are able to sell them at full price. Most of them are advertised at 20% off and more. Who knows where the future of brass is going, but the short runs are already sold out for the most part. The old saying, get them while they are hot applies to more than pancakes.
Yes that O scale Lionel is a great deal, but the last time I checked, it would not run on the club's HO layout. Maybe it is time to run the Lionel on the floor again around the tree at Christmas like I first started.
CZ
Cisco Kid But without diecast choo choos there would be no model train industry. Only the volume of sales and interest in the hobby generated by the prices of diecast models creates enough purchasing power to maintain all the ancillary industry from the local hobby shops to the layout and scenery makers. If brass were the only option, there would be no track to run it on, no trees to put along the track and no stations to pull into. You say, "Yah but I could do all that stuff in DIY fashion." That's not a nation-wide pastime. That's a few dozen wealthy individuals with too much time on their hands.
I don't think anyone believes that mass-produced models are bad or unwelcome.
But without brass models, it would be impractical for me and others (many more than a "few dozen") to build a realistic roster. Are we to be begrudged, and the industry not serve our interests too?
It is now common for brass models to come out in six or more variations of a prototype, with something like a dozen or so models each. That, and because brass models are largely handcrafted (and some say "works of art"), explain their cost/value.
scottychaosToday, from what I have seen, its still the same..brass diesels still look very clunky and crude, compared to plastic diesels..
Then you probably haven't looked at the offerings by manufacturers such as Division Point and Key Imports. Very impressive...but pricey.
I would only consider buying brass if it were a road-specific locomotive or caboose (for me, NYC) that would more than likely never be produced in plastic or brass-hybrid. All but my BLI Mohawk have I bought for at least 30-40% off MSRP.
scottychaosI have never understood the "allure of brass".. back when I was doing HO scale in the 80's, brass was more expensive, much LESS detailed, and ran much worse, than plastic..so, more money for less detailed very poor running models? sign me up! ;) Today, from what I have seen, its still the same..brass diesels still look very clunky and crude, compared to plastic diesels..There are a lot of steam models of specific prototypes that have never been offered in plastic, so in that one area I can see a benefit to brass..otherwise, no. Scot
Here's one of them:
Superb running capabilities, too - probably the best that I've ever seen in steam.
Wayne
joseywalesya I dont care for the plastic fantastic trains.. I'm more into the diecast....Bass as more detailed?? In my opion is not that greatly..
On must also remember that all three construction materials have had major improvements through the last few decades (especially the 1980s). I wouldn't take a Penn Line diecast from the 50's except as a curiosity for a museum. Looked bad, ran worse. Likewise some of the brass from the early 1970's was pretty bad. Of course to be fair one would have to compare it to the plastic at the time. Can you say Rivarossi?
As a prior poster noted, "I never understood the allure of brass diesels". Yesterday I did. Today I don't. Back in the late 1970s it was the only way to get models with see through vents. Plastic technology wasn't there to cast things thin enough and still not break when someone breathed on them. I used to laugh at the noses of some of the brass F units of the 1970s that were so not right (dog faced?).
after seeing the super detail parts on this Bowser PRR T1 Duplex,I'm not that impressed..I seen better cast job on diecast.
In order to do a good and fair comparison, one would have to take recently tooled production runs of plastic, brass, and die cast for a similar model, from similar quality companies.
I saw one company sell's out of production brass trains..Man a HO PRR T1 Duplex going for 1100-1300 painted!!!!..Thats nuts! Would be better off buying a big O gage T1 lional Duplex for that price.
There is obviously some value there which you are not percieving or the price would not consistently stay at that level. Some of the brass units have real equalized suspension, others have floating drives (if parked on a grade they will roll away), many of the newer ones have precision gears and can motors.
For me, I sold most of my brass when the first Proto Steam locomotives came out. Good show, it was fairly clunky and I got good prices for it. Now however I really wish I could afford the current runs that W&R is doing with NP and GN equipment. Phenominal. Of course I would probably also be afraid to run $3000 locomotives.
The UPS guy just handed me a box containing one each of Overland's SP-specific Baldwin AS-616 and ASB-616 models. Wondrous!
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markpierce Are we to be begrudged, and the industry not serve our interests too?
Are we to be begrudged, and the industry not serve our interests too?
Mark, not at all. I think brass locos look fantastic and I agree they are a wonderful esoteric branch of the larger HO hobby community. I am just green with envy.
Keep in mind too that in the 1980's brass models normally came unpainted, and often with at best average motors (open frame) and running qualities. Today's brass models come exquisitely painted at the factory, with smooth running mechanisms with can motors, and often with sound and lighting options unimaginable 25 years ago.
doctorwaynescottychaosI have never understood the "allure of brass".. back when I was doing HO scale in the 80's, brass was more expensive, much LESS detailed, and ran much worse, than plastic..so, more money for less detailed very poor running models? sign me up! ;) Today, from what I have seen, its still the same..brass diesels still look very clunky and crude, compared to plastic diesels..There are a lot of steam models of specific prototypes that have never been offered in plastic, so in that one area I can see a benefit to brass..otherwise, no. Scot Here's one of them:Superb running capabilities, too - probably the best that I've ever seen in steam.Wayne
The picture is very good and if you had some steam for effect, it could be close to real.
Thanks
Many diesels are not available in plastic or diecast. This RDG SW is a Samhongsa from the '90's with a can motor. I use a LokSound 3.5 with custom Winton 201 sound (from Litchfield Station). The carbody has not been tightened down yet. Also glazing and weathering is next.
I am finnishing up an ALCO Models ALCO T-6 in Penn Central. Another great switcher that no one has made in plastic. This had an open frame motor and now has a NWSL can motor. Superb performance. Both the RDG SW and the PC T-6 have a little gear cladder but not that you can't put up with it.
I have just purchased an Oriental NW-2 with full length louvers in the side hood doors (no space for letterboard). This will be RDG 102, a locomotive I photgraphed in Philly at Jack Frost Sugar in 1973. Other than Kato who makes an NW-2? It has no louvers and is ok only for early RDG and CNJ units as an example. The 102 I photographed was a late NW-2.
If you Model RDG and CNJ steam your only option is brass.
man it to me alot of money to spend,yes if your desperate in getting a certian model and RR train..Now on my Bowser T1 its a 1998 kit..this is a revamped kit.. but the brass casting is not the greatest quality..for a super detial kit is 75.00.to me it sould be alot better casted for that price..yes I like the brass T1 it looks great..but to rich for my blood..
joseywales man it to me alot of money to spend,yes if your desperate in getting a certian model and RR train..Now on my Bowser T1 its a 1998 kit..this is a revamped kit.. but the brass casting is not the greatest quality..for a super detial kit is 75.00.to me it sould be alot better casted for that price..yes I like the brass T1 it looks great..but to rich for my blood..
You should try to get the Broadway T1 if you can afford it in the future. Its expensive, but its nearly just as detailed as brass for half the cost, plus you get sound and DCC.
Its my favorite engine by Broadway.
While the Bowser kits come with brass detail parts, the die-cast boiler is a zinc casting, not brass. (See description under #529 PRR T1 Loco and Tender Kit.) That's why the quality doesn't compare.
By the way, not all brass is really expensive. I got a Samhongsa/Westside PRR 1223 4-4-0 from around 1980 for about $180. After a tune-up and a new version of the coreless motor originally used, it's one of my best detailed, best running steam engines I've ever had.
It's still not quite the detail the new stuff has, but it's still excellent. And the stock mechanism is top-quality, ultra smooth, and just about silent.
And then there's my 60s Tenshodo GP20 I got for $50, which is a work in progress right now.
After giving it a really good tune-up and adding a coreless motor with a flywheel, it runs as good as any modern high-end diesel, but with a little gear tower whine. The detail is worse than a Tyco/Mantua GP20 from the same time though, and I'm working to fix that a little.
The famous open-frame motor that causes so much noise and draws so much current in old brass.
Okay, here I go.
Why brass?
I model Rio Grande standard gauge steam.
Photo says it all.
The locomotive on the upper track is a Proto 2000 USRA clone Rio Grande 2-8-8-2. Exquisitely detailed. Smooth runner. Very decent puller. It is currently the ONLY Rio Grande steamer available in plastic. And will probably remain so in the forseeable future, simply because it is a wheel arrangement of a popular type of articulated that can be mass produced with several body styles.
Loco on the lower track is a Key brass model of a Rio Grande 1600 class 3-cylinder 4-8-2. It is one of about 30 different brass Rio Grande locos on my MR because Rio Grande is AVAILABLE in brass, either new or used, and Rio Grande happens to be somewhat of a 'niche' railroad to model, at least in steam. It ain't PRR, N&W or UP, it's Rio Grande. And the locomotives are different. And probably none of them would be 'best-sellers' like other, more popular railroads.
So I go brass. Oh yah, and I do have a hybrid brass/diecast. It's an older Oriental Limited "Powerhouse" model of the same USRA clone 2-8-8-2 as in the photo. Not nearly as exquisitely detailed (though I'm curing that with super-detail castings), but it will outpull the Proto by about four times and runs just as smooth.
So when you come right down to it, it's not what's so BIG about brass, it's what you get to fill out the roster of the particular railroad you model. In my case, it's brass. And darned good running brass at that.
And frankly, I haven't looked back at all.