Martian Rail Link

[Anonymous]

this topic is so funny

[philnrunt]

Dave- great idea, unless you have a repeat of the Promontory fiasco and the RR's miss each other by a few yards and just keep building, encircling Mars with track from pole to pole!
"Sure we can get that intercooler to you, you're on the mainline."
" How long will it take?"
"Trains pulling out of the spaceport now, it should be there in about...six years."

[FJ and G]

One way to spur growth of railroads on Mars would be to have a transcontinental race to circle the planet with a railroad; pitting 2 companies against each other with the promise of land grants. Then, the railroad could sell off land to real-estate speculators and soon, Martian colonies would be sprouting up all over the red planet.

Being a jingoist, I would claim the planet for the United States and make it our 51st state.

dave

[philnrunt]

Hmmmm, so you say if HUMANS with my mentality etc... why would you make a point to say HUMANS-sounds like we might have a MARTIAN SYMPATHIZER here, one of those alien troublemakers that helped to start the Mars First program back in 2525!
C'mon Scott218 (if that is your REAL name) what does it hurt if we humans mine your planet to the bedrock and replace it with our nuclear waste? We did it here and nobody is the worse off for it. The NFL was glad to have 5 handed receivers with eyes in the back of their heads. It will just give your planet a better redder glow. Hey, isn't that a song?
Yeah, I think it's a good idea too,Scott218! Good to have you on board![;)]

PS- if that winkingsmiley didn't come out, it was my first ever attempt to use one. I want to get as slick as lupo and the rest with them.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by philnrunt

QUOTE: Originally posted by trainfan1221

Don't we have enough problems on Earth?

All the more reason to go to Mars!
With few environmental regs,- and a ban on lawyers- you could have common sense solutions to problems- track sprayers to damp down the dust near the tracks,mountains of mine tailings scattered here and there, but the storms would be a problem. Thats where the Meterological section would come in, giving warnings to stock up on supplys due to an approaching storm. Then you run emergency extras to your outposts hoping to beat the weather.
You could have abandoned and storm-damaged rolling stock off the sdie of the tracks due to being just a tad slow.
As for the heavy equipment , you could detail them up just about any way you wanted, no one could say they were wrong, and you might even be able to use the Ertle stuff with scaled down cabs, 'cause terraforming a planet would need huge machines.
I would think that the lesser gravity would not make that much of a difference, a 200 ton loco would still be plenty heavy. Instead of ore jennies, you might be able to use wood chip cars due to the weight difference, but that would be modelers license.
I wonder what an Alco 251 would sound like ?!

No environmental regulations? That's just briliant, if humans with your menataiy decided to occupy Mars our species will have two trashed planets on our hands.

[philnrunt]

QUOTE: Originally posted by trainfan1221

Don't we have enough problems on Earth?

All the more reason to go to Mars!
With few environmental regs,- and a ban on lawyers- you could have common sense solutions to problems- track sprayers to damp down the dust near the tracks,mountains of mine tailings scattered here and there, but the storms would be a problem. Thats where the Meterological section would come in, giving warnings to stock up on supplys due to an approaching storm. Then you run emergency extras to your outposts hoping to beat the weather.
You could have abandoned and storm-damaged rolling stock off the sdie of the tracks due to being just a tad slow.
As for the heavy equipment , you could detail them up just about any way you wanted, no one could say they were wrong, and you might even be able to use the Ertle stuff with scaled down cabs, 'cause terraforming a planet would need huge machines.
I would think that the lesser gravity would not make that much of a difference, a 200 ton loco would still be plenty heavy. Instead of ore jennies, you might be able to use wood chip cars due to the weight difference, but that would be modelers license.
I wonder what an Alco 251 would sound like ?!

[trainfan1221]

Don't we have enough problems on Earth?

[FJ and G]

Red Leader,

Appropriate forum name for this topic!

----------------------

Since Mars has a thin atmosphere, can I assume that you can hear the train coming, whistle blowing?

[RedLeader]

Mars surface is just to cold for pipes to carry any liquid (water, gas, oil, etc). Pipes would be used as some kind of vacuum transporters for powder iron ore to be sent from the mine to the furnace. The problem with gondolas is the dust. The surface of Mars is like walking over baby talc powder. Tank cars may be use for liquid transportation with some kind of heating device, sort of anti-reefers.

Some areas of the planet are constantly attacked by dust storms the size of NY, you'll definately need a dust remover MOW car for those buried tracks (I just can image Pyke's Model M Snow Clearing Machine all painted in a very worn away white finish, all covered with rusty dust cleaning the rails after a dust storm.)

Keep it realistic (please avoid green midgets or any purple poeple eaters). Since Mars would be a new fast growing colony, lots of heavy weight equipment would be used, like giant cranes, dozers and so. Imagine the kind of brisge you could model to cross one of those 3 mile wide canyons!!!

[FJ and G]

Martian canals that criss-cross the planet would make an excellent ROW for hi-speed rail corridors; better claim it now before the highway folks do.

Dave Vergun

[leighant]

How about the reverse of a model railroad representing another planet? How about a model railroad on a base on another planet to represent an earth railroad for the entertainment of astronauts?
I got to thinking about this several years ago because of the problem of scaling down momentum and gravity on our models. You can use a momentum throttle etc and run a train at scale speed but if a train turns over or if you have scale coal rumbling down a coal chute, etc, it falls at real speed instead of scale speed. It goes "plop" instead of "rrrrrrRRRRRRRRRROARRRRRrrrrrrrrkathunnnnnnnnnkkkkkk...."

Now on the moon, the gravity is 1/6 of earth's. The acceleration due to gravity is a second devirative of displacement.
So we square the gravitational proportion, 1/6 to get the corresponding lineral modeling scale, 1/36.
A model train in 1/36 scale (close to many G gauge models) would operate with scale momentum and gravitation effects on a model railroad located on the moon in a manner that would look correct to the astronaut-modeler. If that narrow gauge steamer plunged off a trestle, it would take a correct-appearing 2, 3 or 4 seconds to tumble to the bottom of the ravine instead of the inappropriate 1/2 second we see on terrestrial layouts (those built on earth).

Outdoor layouts may be a bit of a problem however.

[joseph2]

There might be water in the form of ice on Mars,so perhaps gondolas of ice or tank cars of water going back to the settlement.Flat cars of pipes for water pipelines also come to mind.Could we modify a Cat bulldozer for Mars and use it as a flatcar load? Perhaps put a trailer for a battery on the back of a bulldozer.Any of you read scifi about future railroads? Harry Harrison wrote Tunnel Under the Atlantic back in the early 1970's.Ron Goulart mentions railrads in some of his Barnum books. Joe G.

[FJ and G]

Since the whole planet is basically iron, you wouldn't really need iron ore cars to carry stuff around; but what you would need would be hopper cars to carry the ice to other parts of the planet to be used as water or for mixing chemicals. Tank cars and pipelines would not be able to transport the ice, as it is not fluid enough (if heated, it would quickly refreeze).

One would need to make a geological study of the planet to see if all of the rock material is consistently the same everywhere. If not, then trains would certainly be useful for transporting the materials to a processing plant.

Of course, trains as people movers (or Martian movers if they discover anteanaed people) would be useful.

Dav
Reporting from Earth

[Anonymous]

Dont forget that one of starfleet's biggest shipyards is on mars, Utopia Planitia. Just imagine all the loads of warp nacelles, sections of hull and assorted paneling, all the drafting buildings, Outfitting buildings, ect. I can imagine all sorts of uses of railway support there.

James

[philnrunt]

Once again, you people impress me.
The way I see it, you would have alot more scenery options if you built it 25 years or so after we first arrived. Then you could have ruins, failed projects, and an atmosphere in place. All of the bizarre original project problems would have been pretty much worked out by then, and it would be more of an everyday job instead of an exploration type deal.
I really like the idea of sandblasted equipment, man vs nature has always fascinated me and Mars is definitely nature untamed..
The idea of each business-facility being totally isolated, connected by a 1 day train trip or a 4 day crawler trip is also appealing to me.Trains taking provisions to mines, terra former colonies, research stations and military bases would be a blast to model.
The stuff you didnt want to actually model could be a team track type arrangement and you could say it's one of the underground installations! Just a pneumatic download station and you could say it was anything.
FJ&G-
Not too sure about the looks, but that fancy Magne-Traction would be just the ticket for a low gravity situation!

[Jetrock]

Another option would be to go for either a "fantasy Mars" environment, with Earth-normal but thin atmosphere, canals, gleaming Martian cities, and green six-armed Martians.

Finally, if one is developing a "later settlement" layout, a "terraformed" Mars is possible (read Kim Stanley Robinson's "Green Mars" for ideas on this.) It would still be a red planet, but with weird incredibly-spindly green trees, liquid water and no need for airlocks at the passenger stations...

[robengland]

I recall thirty years ago seeing something about a moon railway that had me thinking then what a cool model it would make.

Here's another thought for you: railway on an asteroid. I saw a layout plan on the Web but I can't find it again. Instead of a flat bench, you suspend a ball from the ceiling, then run tracks all over it in three dimensions (due to absense of gravity, asterioid railways need to cling to the track anyway, so it is "prototypical").

[espeefoamer]

Be sure to paint every thing yellow,because as soon as the UP hears about it they will take it over.[:(]

[RedLeader]

Here's a great idea for a martian layout!!

Take Bachmann's 500 series Nazomi shikanzen and paint it all white, remember there's no ozone layer on Mars and it's magnetophere is much weaker that the on Earth, therefore, the train must have a reflective, thermic and isolating painting (white like the one used one the space shuttle, besades white gives a certain "space age" clean look). Use some NASA decals or anything that comes to mind regarding space explorations. Perhaps stamp some flags beside the nose of the locomotive (Russia, USA, France, Japan, Germany, UK, etc.). Weather the thing with rusty dust, must simulate worn away paint, due to constant dust storms, reveiling the titanium-manganese alloy that makes the structure of the train.

Since conditions on Mars would be very different from those on Earth, and the gravity thing, and everything, the most practical solution for your rolling stock would be applying the concept as in airplane cargo. Just take the passenger cars and cover the windows leaving evidence of them and a riveted cap (just like in airplanes). The cargo would be moved in special presurized containers (...just like in air cargo). This way you don't have to worry about rolling stock, everything goes in containres shaped like the inside of your cargo-car. That would not only be easier, but much more realistic. That's the way the Space Shuttle carries cargo out side our planet. Maybe you should adapt some of those projecting doors seen in cargo planes to one of the sides of each cargo car. Imagine a the containers placed over autopropelled carriers with yellow/black zebra paterns waiting for the Via Ferrum Argentum Fluvius (Silver Creek Railroad) No. 5 to arrive.

To be realistic, in a martian mining situation, trains would not be used to transport ore. But high speed pneumatic conveys. Like pipelines full of pulverized iron ore. That could give a very interesting look to those isolated red dust deserts. Trains would be used for personel and supplies.

CNJ831 idea of extending gates to the trains is a cool one. Mars is so cold that diesel would be useless and not even think about steam (Mars is a freacking planet sized desert!! water is produced in factories for survival of men and that's it) Electrified third rail is more realistic, catenary would be a problem with those horrible supersonic hurricanes and state-size tornadoes. Hidrogen power cells is another (more sci-fi)solution, the technology must be very advanced for H2 powers cells to produce enough power to haul a train, today an average car packed up with those things can bearly reach 60 kph!! and they are very expensive to produce. A broom like thingy would go infront of the contact shoe to brush away any dust built up on the third rail, so the locomotive could pick up electricity.

The must interesting of all would be your MOW equipment and all that dusty and bulky martian industry structures, with all those blinking strobes, pressurized pipes. Ah, and don't bother buying rust paint, on Mars there's no rusting, 'cause there's almost no oxygen. So iron slabs coming out of the furnace would be metalic but full of dust. You would like to use concrete ties rather than wood for obvious extraterrestrial reasons.

The idea is so wacky, I could try it myself!!! Just imagine the dust cloud behind the train while it dashes at 600kph to the Blakely Vallis Iron Mine.

Of course, this if you want a rail track sysytem, but if what you want is plausible realism the train would be a MAGLEV kind of thing.

[CNJ831]

One would have to give an awful lot of careful thought to designing such a layout, particularly to the roadbed and rolling stock, if they wi***o be faithful to reality. The temperature extremes would probably preclude the use of any metallic rails. Periodic dust storms, with their highly static-charged particles, could prove downright dangerous or even deadly. Rolling stock and (fuel cell powered?) locomotives would have to ride on totally sealed wheels/bearings and bolster mountings because of dust infiltration. Use of open dump cars for mineral transportation would probably not be practical because of the extreme dust problem as well - bulk materials would have to ride in something like special covered hoppers unloaded under pressure. In addition, O2 would be so precious that passenger stations wouldn't use airlocks capable of holding an entire train but rather would need to employ self-sealing gangways that extended from the "station" to meet car doors, rather like those used at airports today. And don't forget, even though the gravity is much less, mass doesn't change, bringing in a whole new set of problems!

CNJ831

[FJ and G]

Here's the Martian train:

http://www.lionel.com/Products/Catalogs/cat-2003-c-1/pgs-14-15.htm

dav

[philnrunt]

Wow, you guys have some fine thoughts there, making me think even more about just how different and free thinking a layout like this would be.
I've also considered an O underground mining road on Mars, making it a 3-d kind of thing with electric engines snaking their cars through dimly lit tunnels loaded with red ore, crawling up and down steep grades going from one level to another,lost and forgotten caves and maybe even some of Marvins ancestors!
This is what happens when you work midnights, lots of time to daydream, even if it is at night!

[Jetrock]

Some things to consider about such a project:

Because the lower gravity will require much more weight to keep cars firmly on the track, the gauge will probably be wider. Consider, perhaps, modeling in Nw9--running N-scale models on HO gauge track, simulating a nine-foot roadway. Such a scale would put one in line with commercially available 1:144 and other smaller-scale model spaceship kits, as well as being able to model relatively large vistas in N scale.

Of course, such a massive thing would represent a large, developed Martian railroad industry--one could also use a narrow-gauge approach to model an early Martian settlement, with a small lightweight railroad intended to assist in construction of Martian industries, transporting goods to and from a shuttle launch pad/landing site, mine, agricultural dome, laboratories, and habitat area.

That Lunar layout wasn't exactly "a few years ago"--I think it was April of 1978 or 1979!!

[BNSFNUT]

Foolish Earthmen we do not use primitive railroads on Mars. We teleport every thing.[:D]
Just kidding I think trying to build a Mars railroad would be fun and nobody could say if any thing is unprototypical.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

And all this time I foolishly believed that MRL was Montana Rail Link

That's what I thought when I read the thread originally too....

Macguy thinking --
"that's not how you spell montana" [:I] [;)]

[dharmon]

And all this time I foolishly believed that MRL was Montana Rail Link

[FJ and G]

"Can you imagine how large ore cars could be in lower gravity," writes Elliot----

Actually, they wold have to be very large and heavy or else the lower gravity might result in derailments; even more so on our Moon, when we eventually build railroads there.

Would be interesting to have a train construction simulator (CD), where you could map the industries on the moon and mars and build future railroads.

dave vergun

[Anonymous]

Good point about the airlocked train stations. I have a thought about that. It would be really simple I think. Have a seal that seals off the passenger platform as the train arrives and departs. Then have two seals at the end of the "tunnel that open and close to permit the train to enter and exit and yet allow the platform to be presurised and depressurised for loading and unloading. It would be a simple system to build I think.

James

P.S. If you want a sketch, let me know, I will draw one up and email it to you if you wish.

James

[IRONROOSTER]

It could be neat. Have to use electric locos with a nuclear generator - oxygen would too valuable to burn. The engine and passenger cars would have to be sealed, but the ore cars, etc could be open. The towns would all be domed with airlocks. Passenger stops could have enclosed tubes come out and seal onto the passenger trains. Need an airlock system to bring the train inside. Ties would be rocks. You might be nutz, but it would still be fun to do. Post pictures.
Enjoy
Paul