I just completed construction of Walthers Wood Water Tank kit which I bought shortly before they came out with the built-up version. It looked like a fairly simple kit to build so I figured it would be no problem. WRONG!!! Had I known the aggravation I would go through putting this thing together, I would have pitched it in the trash and bought the built-up version. While most of the kit is pretty straight forward, there were two major exceptions. The first came with construction of the timber framing for the tower. This consisted of four major pieces connected with diagonal bracing. Trying to get all the little nubs in the diagonal bracing to simultaneously line up with all the little holes in the timber framing was more than a little aggravating. These diagonal braces are fairly thin plastic which tended to bend and warp when it must be kept perfectly straight to get the parts to mate correctly. The air was filled with lots of the words you can't say on television. This aggravation was minor compared to that of trying to thread the cabling through the tiny holes on the water spout, pulleys and counterweights. Some of these holes were smaller than the typical eye of a needle. I do not have a jeweler's eyes or hands and this proved to be nearly impossible. Somehow I finally imagined to get the thread through all those tiny holes. Once this was done, I had to tie it off on the counterweights with very little thread to work with. In addition, I had to be very careful not to pull the thread out of the spout and pulley on the other end of the line while I tied these very small knots. This too proved to be almost insurmountable. What I ended up with is a structure that looks no better than one I could have bought off the shelf at my LHS and plopped down in place on the layout. The only advantage I see to buying the kit is that it makes custom painting the tank a little easier, but I have no doubt I could have hand painted the built-up kit with far less aggravation than I experienced putting together the tiny little plastic pieces.
Out of curiosity, I checked the Walters website to see if the kit was still available and how much I saved by buying the kit instead. The kit is still available and the list price is all of $3 less than the built up. To save that $3, I estimate I spent 12-15 hours of my time, whereas if I chose to hand paint the built-up, I could probably have done it in an hour or two. If they want to pay some cheap Chinese laborer to put these kits together for me, I'll gladly pay a few extra bucks for the convenience. Now here's the final insult. Walthers currently has the built-up version on sale for $5 less than the kit. I actually had to pay more for the aggravation of building it myself.
I've learned my lesson. From now on if the same or similar structures are available in both kit and built-up, I'm going with the built-up every time. I would much rather spend a little more of my money to save a lot more of my time.
Yeah, but then where would you go to get all your righteous indignation???
Marklin, Lionel and MTH all make fine, high quality toy trains that work perfectly with all their associated products and accessories and they all come ready to run requiring that all you do is "snap" the track pieces together and play.
I'm sure one of these product lines will make your hobby experiance much happier, and your pockets much emptier.
I'm sorry you had such a bad experiance with these low quality, have to be assembled, scale model kits.
Building things is just not for everyone. As a Carpenter friend of mine says "if it was easy, everyone would do it".
Sheldon
Y'see. This is why I'm constantly saying that we need to think that OTHER VALUES than the almighty dollar might help here. What of skill development? Lifelong learning? If all we are doing is looking into the billfold for our reason why we do kits and such---and all we do is rush to RTR then everyone who wants to buy kits won't have ANY
We'll have RTR----and its Radical Other---scratchbuilder
So much for the so called OPEN market--as it shrinks into nothingness
I can see that would be frustrating BTW---I was eyeing one of those cranes that had the 2/3 winches that needed put together/wired up---I think I'll get them and slowly work them up
By the way Don7---he did say this was a rant---so you need not rant about a rant----just a little pre-emptive strike here
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
JE:
I've got two of the Walthers tanks on my layout, but they were the built-ups. I'm kind of surprised that the kit would be that difficult, as most of the other Walthers kits I've assembled went together with no problem. But if it helps any, the thread used for the pulleys and counterweights doesn't really work any better on the built-ups.
The one water tank kit I have is an Atlas, that I built about 8 years ago, and instead of thread, the kit came with scale chain that was a bear to install, but looks about six times better than the thread. However, the kit itself went together very well.
My eyesight isn't that good anymore, but the more I look at the Walthers tanks, the more I think I'll go out and get some scale chain and see if I can't improve the looks, somehow.
Sorry it was such a bear to build.
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
I'm with the OP on this. I enjoy the kits that work. Accurail come to mind. But I, having a manic temper caged, am not going to waste the time to let me wrk myself up on something that I'm going to watch dissamble itself. *Cough Lionel water/sanding**Cough Branchline* The Walthers genral store I'm doing is quite enjoyable, as is the Globe kit in process.
-Morgan
I love putting structure kits together. I am still working on a Walthers City Station. I do get angry, but I am like the Hulk. You don't want to see me get angry. I don't turn green though
Will
I just turn a nice rich shade of purple and the air kind of gets a little blue around the edges---
Audrey then, in the background, goes----"Now Barry---remember your Apoplexy"!!!
I built one of these. I didn't have problem with the frame or the pulleys, but I really didn't like getting the 4 main sections of the tank to come together. Others may not notice it, but the bands don't match up on mine, and it bothers the heck out of me.
Still, I'd rather put together a structure kit than plop a built-up down on my layout, I'm 50/50 on rolling stock, and frankly, I'll take an RTR locomotive over a kit every time. Most of my autos are pre-constructed, too, but Jordan kits give me an awful lot of satisfaction.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
Personnaly I like a kit regardless of the complexity or complications involved in building it. Yes they can take some time to build and be a pain at times, but you can personalize it by varying colors, weather, modify, etc., etc. and not be something you just buy.
I have noticed the price for build-ups aren't much different than the kits in a lot of cases. It makes me wonder if the kits are priced to high and are the structure kits going to go the same way as Athearn Blue Boxes? Probably will since there was a time when steam and diesel locomotives were available in kits. As the technology advances with computer miniaturization I can see buildings controlled with them for interior and exterior lighting, sounds, etc.. Probably even with miniature plasma screens at all the windows for visual effects. Who knows, the coaling tower chutes will probably operate with the sound of the coal loading or even have it actually loading even for N Scale.
NYC-Big 4Probably even with miniature plasma screens at all the windows for visual effects.
Except in California, of course, where the state legislature decided that plasmas waste too much energy.
"I am lapidary but not eristic when I use big words." - William F. Buckley
I haven't been sleeping. I'm afraid I'll dream I'm in a coma and then wake up unconscious. -Stephen Wright
mononguy63 Except in California, of course, where the state legislature decided that plasmas waste too much energy.
They'd probably conclude that they cause cancer, too, if you watch them for 96 hours a day. They tried doing this experiment, but found that the lab rats wouldn't watch what's on TV these days for more than 5 minutes.
On a serious note, I'd really be unhappy if the only structures I could buy were built-ups. You'd have to take the whole thing apart to paint and weather it properly, or to add an interior. One thing working in our favor is the relative size of the box for a kit vs. a built-up. That matters when you're shipping stuff. For rolling stock, a kit and an RTR are about the same, but a built-up structure is much bigger, and needs more careful packaging than a kit.
twhite JE: I've got two of the Walthers tanks on my layout, but they were the built-ups. I'm kind of surprised that the kit would be that difficult, as most of the other Walthers kits I've assembled went together with no problem. But if it helps any, the thread used for the pulleys and counterweights doesn't really work any better on the built-ups. The one water tank kit I have is an Atlas, that I built about 8 years ago, and instead of thread, the kit came with scale chain that was a bear to install, but looks about six times better than the thread. However, the kit itself went together very well. My eyesight isn't that good anymore, but the more I look at the Walthers tanks, the more I think I'll go out and get some scale chain and see if I can't improve the looks, somehow. Sorry it was such a bear to build. Tom
I have to agree with your assessment of the appearance of the pulley and counterweights. The plastic counterweights simply are not heavy enough to make the thread hang straight down and the weights themselves hang at an angle. I am assuming that the built-ups are made from the same parts so I wouldn't expect that they would be any different. I've managed to disguise that flaw somewhat by pushing the weights behind the spout support so it isn't real obvious. That complaint is secondary to my problem with the degree of difficulty in building the kit. I agree that many Walthers kits are relatively easy to construct. The problem comes when they try to use plastic parts and thread for the fine detail. I went through the same frustration a few years ago when I built Walthers Concrete Coaling tower which had a similar system of pulleys and counterweights except it was magnified by the fact that there were multiple coal shoots each requiring the same difficult assembly. I finally gave up and left a lot of this detail off and the tower still meets my good-enough standard. I think I made a similar rant back then as well.
I'm not against all kit building. If I can construct a simple kit in a reasonable amount of time and achieve the good-enough look, I'm fine with that. But if a kit threatens to send me to the nuthouse, forget about it. I'll pay a few more dollars to have someone who does that sort of thing repetitively take care of the hassle.
Flashwave I'm with the OP on this. I enjoy the kits that work. Accurail come to mind. But I, having a manic temper caged, am not going to waste the time to let me wrk myself up on something that I'm going to watch dissamble itself. *Cough Lionel water/sanding**Cough Branchline* The Walthers genral store I'm doing is quite enjoyable, as is the Globe kit in process.
I agree completely about Accurail. Aside from the time I wait for the glue to dry for the metal weight, I can throw one of their boxcars together in about 10-15 minutes. That includes the time I spent reaming the trucks, and inserting P2K wheelsets and KD couplers. I'm fine with molded on details. It sure beats having to add those details seperately as is required with more expensive kits such as Branchline.
NYC-Big 4 Personnaly I like a kit regardless of the complexity or complications involved in building it. Yes they can take some time to build and be a pain at times, but you can personalize it by varying colors, weather, modify, etc., etc. and not be something you just buy. I have noticed the price for build-ups aren't much different than the kits in a lot of cases. It makes me wonder if the kits are priced to high and are the structure kits going to go the same way as Athearn Blue Boxes? Probably will since there was a time when steam and diesel locomotives were available in kits. As the technology advances with computer miniaturization I can see buildings controlled with them for interior and exterior lighting, sounds, etc.. Probably even with miniature plasma screens at all the windows for visual effects. Who knows, the coaling tower chutes will probably operate with the sound of the coal loading or even have it actually loading even for N Scale.
I agree completely that you don't get a lot of savings in this hobby with kits over RTR and built-ups. In the home improvement business, typically labor accounts for about twice the cost of the materials themselves which is what you can save with the DIY approach. You don't realize anywhere near the sweat equity savings in the model railroading world. Probably because the labor costs for RTR and built ups are minimal because this work is done in countries where labor is dirt cheap.
blownout cylinder Y'see. This is why I'm constantly saying that we need to think that OTHER VALUES than the almighty dollar might help here. What of skill development? Lifelong learning? If all we are doing is looking into the billfold for our reason why we do kits and such---and all we do is rush to RTR then everyone who wants to buy kits won't have ANY We'll have RTR----and its Radical Other---scratchbuilder So much for the so called OPEN market--as it shrinks into nothingness I can see that would be frustrating BTW---I was eyeing one of those cranes that had the 2/3 winches that needed put together/wired up---I think I'll get them and slowly work them up By the way Don7---he did say this was a rant---so you need not rant about a rant----just a little pre-emptive strike here
If the skills I acquire from model building could be applied to other areas of my life, skill development might be a consideration, but for the life of me I can't think of where else I could apply these skills.
As for the continued availability of kits, as long as there is a sufficient market for it, there will be suppliers. If kits disappear, it will be because buyers will have voted with their dollars what they want. Kits do offer some advantages over built-ups but I'm not sure that outweights their downside. If kits do disappear or become very limited, then kitbashing will become a lost art, but I can see that void being filled by expanded availability of modular components. There will still be options for customized structures short of scratchbuilding.
I'm with the O/P around 75% I do enjoy building models always have even as a kid but what frustrates the bejesus out of me is when you get these extremely small pieces that are bent. warped and twisted beyond recognition. and your supposed to work with them. Lets not even get into when structure walls are warped and twisted resembling a potato chip and you spend more time straightening things out then you do building the entire lit. My first attempt at a craftsman kit was a Branchline Water tank. I got the kit in the mail opened the box layed it all out on the kitchen table looked at all the pieces put it backin the box and sent it back. Since then my confidence has grown 200% and I have built several craftsmen kits and have guys in the club ask me to build kits for them I politely decline telling them I usually need 3 or 4 kits to build one structure. Not because I'm kit bashing but rather because I break so many pieces either out of clumsiness or frustration. If I come across a built up that I like for my railroad and it's of a good quality like some of the Walthers or Woodland Scenics I have no problem buying them and personalizing them a bit by weathering or adding signage such as those cool miniature neon signs to individualize them. I had a late friend of mine who used to build a lot of structures for my railroad for several reason, A: he was much better at it then I was, B: It was a way we could trade favors I would do wiring & electrical on his layout and C: I have a ton of work ahead of me and some times as in this case it was time better spent working on something else on the layout. I have heard many of the master model railroaders say no one person can do everything. Work on locomotives doing repairs, decoders installations, scenery, wiring,airbrush paintng etc. So having others do things for you doesn't make you a bad person just one who knows his limitations and knows how to use his time and money wisely.
In the end we all know the limitations of our own abilities and they show in the end result of our work. So what would you rather have a real crappy looking kit that looks like a second grader built on your layout or a factory built up with a few of your own personal touches or not that John Q. Public will have no idea that you didn't do much more then open a box sitting on your layout?
It doesn't make you any less of a model railroader weather you use built ups or not.
Alley wrote:
-----------------------------------------------------------
I agree with your thoughts completely everybody isn't a perfect modeler and may be all thumbs when it comes to some areas of the hobby..Then you have those that have-shall we say disabilities? I know after using full use of my dominate right hand I am no longer able to do certain common things in the hobby that I once took for granted.
Take a pre built building add your detailing touch(don't laugh I seen better kit detailers then they were kit builders),some toning down and who's to know its not a kit built?
Larry
Conductor.
Summerset Ry.
"Stay Alert, Don't get hurt Safety First!"
John,
Whether you go RTR or still dabble with a few kits, I would encourage you to consider getting an inexpensive pair of magnification visors:
The above pictured are Mascot 2.5X visors and cost around $16-18. For me, they are worth their weight in gold and I use them for kit assembly, painting, and working on/repairing locomotives. I think they will make certain aspects of your kit building MUCH more of a pleasant experience for you. Also, if you don't already have a pair, needle-nose tweezers are a must and are very handy for handling small parts and doing tedious work - like threading holes.
Like Tom, I also substituted A-line scale chain for the stiff thread that came with my Walthers water tower. It definitely looks better, for sure. I used either 27 or 40 LPI (links per inch).
Hope that helps...
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
Sounds like the above posts want nothing to do with actually working with your hands, so I guess will go to the bank, take out a loan and go to the LHS and buy tons of ready-made stuff, stick it all over my layout and pretend this is my "hobby'' , maybe the "kitbuilders'' should try a scratchbuilt project ( it's not as hard as you make it out to be) see you at the hobby shop !
tatans Sounds like the above posts want nothing to do with actually working with your hands, so I guess will go to the bank, take out a loan and go to the LHS and buy tons of ready-made stuff, stick it all over my layout and pretend this is my "hobby'' , maybe the "kitbuilders'' should try a scratchbuilt project ( it's not as hard as you make it out to be) see you at the hobby shop !
Yes, building my layout the easiest way possible is exactly what I want and I don't have to "pretend" this is a hobby. I am every bit as much a model railroader as those who chose to scratchbuild their structures and kit build locos and rolling stock. How I choose to build my layout is my business and nobody else's. If others choose a different way, that is their choice and I don't have a problem with that. I do have a problem with those who adopt a snooty attitude about it.
Not another R-T-R vs. The Scratchbuilder´s Gang case, please!
We all have different abilities and it is, IMHO, perfectly legitimate to buy those things we are not good at making ourselves.
To each his own!
tstage John, Whether you go RTR or still dabble with a few kits, I would encourage you to consider getting an inexpensive pair of magnification visors: The above pictured are Mascot 2.5X visors and cost around $16-18. For me, they are worth their weight in gold and I use them for kit assembly, painting, and working on/repairing locomotives. I think they will make certain aspects of your kit building MUCH more of a pleasant experience for you. Also, if you don't already have a pair, needle-nose tweezers are a must and are very handy for handling small parts and doing tedious work - like threading holes. Like Tom, I also substituted A-line scale chain for the stiff thread that came with my Walthers water tower. It definitely looks better, for sure. I used either 27 or 40 LPI (links per inch). Hope that helps... Tom
Tom,
I have one of those visors but find it awkward to use as it affects my depth perception and hand-eye coordination. I use tweezers and a small needle nose pliers but they didn't help that much with the problems I had with this kit. The chain is a good idea and I'm sure it looks better than the thread but for the added cost, I could just as well buy the built up and forgo much of the aggravation.
This water tower is going in at the junction of my branchline. I'll need another when I get to the ternminus of the branch and when I do, I'll get a built-up, either the Atlas or the Walthers and save myself the headaches.
Tell ya what.
Try this.Tape your tumb and forefinger together on your dominate hand and use your off hand..
Then try to build a kit-even a simple blue box car kit.It can be done but,its ackward working with the "wrong" hand.
Try to picture a person that is all thumbs and their kit building is well -uh,mmm,gee,shoot ok,-shall we say leaves a lot to be desired?
Personally I like the prebuilts gives me more time to add details.
I recall a scene from an old western flick; our film's protagonist has just dispatched one of the many town scoundrels to residency in the local boot hill. We, the film's viewers, know that it was a pure and unadulterated case of self-defense; unfortunately this singular fact is mute to the town residents who respond to this gunshot report by charging onto the scene to discover the body of our now-deceased baddie. One of the town's hallowed citizens bends over the corpse and exclaims, "He's dead!"
Our hero blows the curling smoke away from the barrel of his trusty 44-40 and replaces his weapon in its holster with one of those Texas Twirls--which was a dedicated way to shoot off a toe. "He's a better man for that," he quips.
Your experience--and associated frustration,--good sir, has added immense depth to your character. You too are ". . . . . a better man for that!"
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
jecorbettOut of curiosity, I checked the Walters website to see if the kit was still available and how much I saved by buying the kit instead. The kit is still available and the list price is all of $3 less than the built up. To save that $3, I estimate I spent 12-15 hours of my time, whereas if I chose to hand paint the built-up, I could probably have done it in an hour or two. If they want to pay some cheap Chinese laborer to put these kits together for me, I'll gladly pay a few extra bucks for the convenience. Now here's the final insult. Walthers currently has the built-up version on sale for $5 less than the kit. I actually had to pay more for the aggravation of building it myself.
Dr. Frankendiesel aka Scott Running BearSpace Mouse for president!15 year veteran fire fighterCollector of Apple //e'sRunning Bear EnterprisesHistory Channel Club life member.beatus homo qui invenit sapientiam
Sheeesh!!
All he said was that in his case he'd rather be doing the RTP thing! My response was to go from his crab to everyone going to RTR then having scratchbuilding being the Radical Other to RTR!!!
But really now---
He is right about the frustration part----BTW jecorbett, I sometimes wonder about the magnification factor on those things--it may be that you might need one more geared to your own situation--I have a severe astigmatism in one eye, so if I'm using my headpiece I frequently find myself with a squint-one eye maneuvre---just a lot of fun. I do use a pair that I can use over my glasses which does help--as it does have LEDs for extra light. ----And I really do need more light
Also---do you have something like a 'helping hands'? Those things with the alligator clips? That sorta helps as well.
It might be just as well that one does not need deadlines in this----
What is this hobby?
It is intended by most of its denizens to be a happy and pleasurable confluence of motivation, time, aptitude, and resources. Those four form what is known as "instrumentality". To the extent that any one (or more...) of these four is compromised or augmented in any way, the happy and pleasurable side of the equation will be altered. His instrumentality will have suffered, and he will perceive it as such. Logic.
Our OP set out with an ideal goal and timeline with which to achieve some of the happiness and pleasure he desired at the outset of building his kit. The obstacles he encountered, comprising part of his learning, were incongruous with his instrumentality. I suspect it was a problem with aptitude, that being a compilation of skill and outright ability. Few of us can paint backdrops really nicely...right? Some of us resort to an expedient, such as enlarged photographs. Why not? And why not resort to built-up kits at times when we know we are asking for a lot of grief in attempting an unrealistic goal?
This is not to say such a goal cannot ever be realized...not at all! A younger person with more responsive and delicate dexterity and visual acuity could actaully develop what is necessary to enjoy a lifetime of model building. Our OP, a realist, has recognized limitations which will encroach on his enjoyment more now that he is aging.
I'd say that, on balance, he is right to enjoy his hobby to the fullest extent his four factors permit. I commend this orientation to the hobby to anyone reading here.
-Crandell
ccarannaI was always under the impression that RTR equipment was mainly produced for the toy train world. Nothing against Lionel or toy trains, but wasn't HO initially designed to be a separate "craftsman" scale for those that wanted to build things? (sigh)
I doubt it. Seriously. What would lead you to think that it was that way? Maybe you are being factious?