From now on, it's built-ups and RTR for me (RANT)

[tstage]

[before the curtain drop]

I actually find some of the conversation here rather sad, to be honest.  Although I personally like building kits and choose to as much as possible, if someone "chooses" RTR for their layout, that is their prerogative.  And I am also perfectly happy to strike up a conversation with and socialize with any MRRer; whichever camp they may fall in.

Why not just let folks enjoy MRRing however they choose to - even if it's different from your own proclivity - and let's leave the high horse in the stables where it belongs.  Okay...now where did I put my X-acto knife?...

Tom

[riogrande5761]

ATLANTIC CENTRAL

If my indifference to those who have no interest in building models makes me "elitist", than guilty as charged. But just remember it is not distain, just indifference.

Sheldon

It doesn't - don't know why it should.

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

BRAKIE

riogrande5761:

They seem to have this elitist view of the hobby.

-----------------------

Oddly I find this more of a forum thing then in the real world where their actual modeling can be seen.

 

Of course there are guys that back their talk by showing pictures of their models while others talk the talk but,never show picture of their  models.

 

I notice those that show and tell seldom seems haughty or a elitist.

 

I suppose they fully understand adding detail parts to a detailed model does not the craftsman make no more then building a craftsman kit makes a craftsman..

If my indifference to those who have no interest in building models makes me "elitist", than guilty as charged. But just remember it is not distain, just indifference.

Sheldon

[ATLANTIC CENTRAL]

I posted early in this thread, with a bit of sarcasm, and have since just observed with interest the debate.

I have no problem with built ups or ready to run, easy kits, challenging craftsman kits or scratch building. For me personally the hobby includes ALL of these things. Why and when I choose one or the other is a personal choice of resources, time, skills and goals.

I expect others to make different choices based on their different situations.

What I took exception to in the orginal post that prompted my sarcasm was the tone that somehow it was the fault of the product, or the manufacturer, that the OP lacked the skills, or the patience, to complete the kit in a satisfactory manner.

It was not the product's fault - why was the product "blamed"? I have built dozens of such kits with no "problems" at all.

Personally, for ME, a big part of the hobby is about building things, so, a fellow modeler, train enthusiast, collector, who has NO interest in building but only in aquiring and possibly running model trains would soon find little or no common ground for a conversation or social relationship with me regarding the hobby. But that is not a judgement of him, its simply that we would have very little in common.

I would want to talk about my latest kit bashed Bachmann loco, or the undecorated Proto locos I just detailed and painted, or ask him what he's "working on" and he would likely tell me how Bachmann was below his "collector" standards and want to discuss his latest brass, BLI or MTH purchase, which would equally bore me.

We are in a new age where scale modeling can now be done with less "craftsman building" on the part of the modeler. I'm not going to even comment on the merits of that either way - it is what it is.

But built up or kit, expensive or budget priced, don't blame the trains for your own short commings or limitations and don't expect that the industry should cater to only your view of the hobby.

Sheldon

[BRAKIE]

riogrande5761:

They seem to have this elitist view of the hobby.

-----------------------

Oddly I find this more of a forum thing then in the real world where their actual modeling can be seen.

 

Of course there are guys that back their talk by showing pictures of their models while others talk the talk but,never show picture of their  models.

 

I notice those that show and tell seldom seems haughty or a elitist.

 

I suppose they fully understand adding detail parts to a detailed model does not the craftsman make no more then building a craftsman kit makes a craftsman..

[BRAKIE]

CNJ831

riogrande5761

I"m going to have to agree with Bob on this one CNJ831,

I've heard plenty of people extol the virtues of being a "true" model railroader and those folks who rely on RTR stuff these days aren't entitled to call themselves by that moniker.  They seem to have this elitist view of the hobby and as my finacee would say to that attitude:  bollocks!  I am not going to cut down a pine tree to make a box car - I love Bob's colorful examples!  =D

Quite honestly, if the craftman aspects are totally removed from our hobby (as seems to increasingly be occurring) and replaced completely by a RTR approach, then you have an entirely different hobby. The only facet which both will have in common would be the running of miniature trains. In fact, an HO hobby centered completely around RTR would have a direct line of descent from kids' Lionel/Flyer toy train interests of the 1950's, or perhaps adult Hi-Rail of the era, not the long established HO craftsman's hobby.

Let me offer an analogy here. If someone does fine arts painting as a hobby and does it well, he can rightly consider himself an artist. His creative and artistic talents are in the same sense as those of the model railroad craftsman as both are talented creators of a unique end product. Now let's say another guy with no particular abilities visits his local art gallery and purchases a painting to add to his collection. He takes it home and hangs it on his wall. Is it proper that he now consider himself an artist? 

That's essentially the sort of situation evolving in our hobby today. There is no elitism involved in pointing it out either, it's simply a matter of recognizing the distinct differences that separate the nature of the two pursuits and the titles afforded them. As I've said, both MR and RMC recognized the distinction long ago.

CNJ831

Craftsman? Or builders of craftmen kit buildings?

 

IMHO my Dad was among the last true modeler/craftsman..

How many today has the skills needed to build a locomotive from tin or brass stock and Kemtron parts?

My dad's generation could till the coming of the brass steam locomotive.

Then it became a dying skill which is all but forgotten today...

The only modelers that has the right to be haughty about their modeling belongs in my Dad's generation-not ours. no,not by a long shot.

 

 

[blownout cylinder]

TA462

I tell most people that I built my Trans Am but in reality all I did was build the rear end, the motor and the assemble all the finished (by someone else) pieces.    

You still did the dang thing! Even if it was still done by others the thing had to be put--assembled by you! LOL!!

There is a fellow down my street--has a 1956 Chev 210 with a blown 455 cid in it---paid almost $86,000 for the car at a RM auction just recently. Went around to a lot of cruise nights and bragged about how he built the whole car up from 'scratch'---the only problem was---none of the description actually fit what he was driving----

[blownout cylinder]

CNJ831

Let me offer an analogy here. If someone does fine arts painting as a hobby and does it well, he can rightly consider himself an artist. His creative and artistic talents are in the same sense as those of the model railroad craftsman, both are talented creators of a unique end product. Now let's say another guy with no particular abilities visits his local art gallery and purchases a painting to add to his collection. He takes it home and hangs it on his wall. Is it proper that he now consider himself an artist? 

This type of debate is going on in hot roddiing of all things. The idea some have is that you can buy a turn-key street rod from an auction like the ones that Russo and Steele have and then suggest that you 'built' this car---via buying it. This would be a way of vicariously 'living' through someone else's busted knuckles----

Strange but there we are-----vicarious experiences now----

[CNJ831]

riogrande5761

I"m going to have to agree with Bob on this one CNJ831,

I've heard plenty of people extol the virtues of being a "true" model railroader and those folks who rely on RTR stuff these days aren't entitled to call themselves by that moniker.  They seem to have this elitist view of the hobby and as my finacee would say to that attitude:  bollocks!  I am not going to cut down a pine tree to make a box car - I love Bob's colorful examples!  =D

Quite honestly, if the craftman aspects are totally removed from our hobby (as seems to increasingly be occurring) and replaced completely by a RTR approach, then you have an entirely different hobby. The only facet which both will have in common would be the running of miniature trains. In fact, an HO hobby centered completely around RTR would have a direct line of descent from kids' Lionel/Flyer toy train interests of the 1950's, or perhaps adult Hi-Rail of the era, not the long established HO craftsman's hobby.

Let me offer an analogy here. If someone does fine arts painting as a hobby and does it well, he can rightly consider himself an artist. His creative and artistic talents are in the same sense as those of the model railroad craftsman as both are talented creators of a unique end product. Now let's say another guy with no particular abilities visits his local art gallery and purchases a painting to add to his collection. He takes it home and hangs it on his wall. Is it proper that he now consider himself an artist? 

That's essentially the sort of situation evolving in our hobby today. There is no elitism involved in pointing it out either, it's simply a matter of recognizing the distinct differences that separate the nature of the two pursuits and the titles afforded them. As I've said, both MR and RMC recognized the distinction long ago.

CNJ831

[West Coast S]

blownout cylinder

West Coast S

How about some compromise? Built up as one feels is required, whatever floats your boat for the rest. Having devoted hundreds, no make that thousands of hours to manfacture specific S steam and rolling stock for my own use. You can bet I got excited when availibilty of a RTR generic wooden reefer was confirmed, as soon as one could say "goodby Visa" 75 were mine for the asking.  Enjoy the hobby as you see fit.

 

Dave  

That works just fine for me!! I'm not saying either/or---there is a lot of room for this so one does not have to panic----

Was that a smoky VISA fire or a 4 alarmer?

 

Quite the Visa fire indeed, think I earned enough points to join Branson's crew on their next space flight!    All is now right with the world and contentment reigns supreme, now that I have a 153 car PFE reefer fleet.  

Dave

[riogrande5761]

user="blownout cylinder"

YOIKS!! Maybe the problem is that some people do think that distinctions actually might mean something----but to then turn it into a hierarchical battle wherein one is better than the other is alittle much me thinks This kind of "mushiness" wherein there is no difference ignores those differences and tries to turn this complex hobby into an undifferentiated soup. Can we not have acceptance of those differences and think OTHER than "I must win/you must lose"?

 I"m not really sure.  All I know is I like trains, I want to build a model railroad and I do it for fun and enjoyment.  It isn't a competition with me, nor a way to get awards and earn recognition.  Nor a way to develope a sense of accomplishment or build self esteem.

If you perceive there to be this 'elitist'  view than no amount of arguing otherwise will make it go away. This 'elitist' thing I'll dare say could be also seen as a defense mechanism brought on by certain events of the last little while----kits are disappearing(which does make for longer acquisition times and, in some cases---higher costs---remember collector markets do play a role here), there are certain mfg's dealing almost solely with certain sizes of locomotives--while ignoring some market niches that are now seeing not so much, who knows what all else---there are other aspects as well----

Yes, I do perceive that attitude from some in the forums from time to time both here and Atlas.  As for making it go away, it depends on whether someone is willing to re-evaluate their attitude about the hobby or not.  Many people are stuck in their ways.  You may be right about defense mechanism, I can see that.  They see their nitch as being endangered with kits going away.  But if folks are that hard core about scratch and kit building, there are plenty of raw materials out there and a greater sense of acomplishment for those folks at journey's end.

I do feel Pastor Bob has a common no-nonsense view of this topic and he illustratet his points in a way I agree with.

[blownout cylinder]

riogrande5761

I've heard plenty of people extol the virtues of being a "true" model railroader and those folks who rely on RTR stuff these days aren't entitled to call themselves by that moniker. 

YOIKS!! Maybe the problem is that some people do think that distinctions actually might mean something----but to then turn it into a hierarchical battle wherein one is better than the other is alittle much me thinks This kind of "mushiness" wherein there is no difference ignores those differences and tries to turn this complex hobby into an undifferentiated soup. Can we not have acceptance of those differences and think OTHER than "I must win/you must lose"?

riogrande5761

They seem to have this elitist view of the hobby

If you perceive there to be this 'elitist'  view than no amount of arguing otherwise will make it go away. This 'elitist' thing I'll dare say could be also seen as a defense mechanism brought on by certain events of the last little while----kits are disappearing(which does make for longer acquisition times and, in some cases---higher costs---remember collector markets do play a role here), there are certain mfg's dealing almost solely with certain sizes of locomotives--while ignoring some market niches that are now seeing not so much, who knows what all else---there are other aspects as well----

Myself---I do not see these distinctions as 'elitist' because I 'perceive' these distinctions as ONLY distinctions----nothing else-----and as such some may be more purist in thinking-----I think 'purist' as opposed to the inflammatory---'elitist'

[CNJ831]

IRONROOSTER

If you go back and look at the articles and advertising of the 50's it's clear that scale model railroading as opposed to toy train collecting was occurring in HO, S, and O.  What really got HO going was that it was the smallest scale generally available at the end of WWII when we entered a period of prosperity for the middle class.  Athearn and MDC/Roundhouse having lots of goodies in the scale helped also.  This gave HO a momentum that has continued to this day.

Paul

Actualy, HO was asserting its virtues as an "ideal" scale well before the end of WWII. By 1940 it already had accounted for just short of 50% of all hobbyists and by war's end the figure had attained 60% of the market. By just the first years of the 1950's HO had reached the market share it holds today.

Just before the onset of the war, the diversity of available products in HO had already far outstripped that for O-scale, while at the same time prices were but a small fraction of those for its bigger brother. Even before wartime had curtailed production it was obvious to the manufacturers that O would have little future beyond children's toys after the war and companies like Varney were already considering selling off their entire O-scale line of products. While prosperity indeed marked the early post-war period, it was the explosively expanding HO marketplace, together with its large number of new, quality, manufacturers, that quickly gave HO a 4:1 or even 5:1 dominance over any of its competitor scales. 

CNJ831

[riogrande5761]

I"m going to have to agree with Bob on this one CNJ831,

I've heard plenty of people extol the virtues of being a "true" model railroader and those folks who rely on RTR stuff these days aren't entitled to call themselves by that moniker.  They seem to have this elitist view of the hobby and as my finacee would say to that attitude:  bollocks!  I am not going to cut down a pine tree to make a box car - I love Bob's colorful examples!  =D

 

 

[IRONROOSTER]

If you go back and look at the articles and advertising of the 50's it's clear that scale model railroading as opposed to toy train collecting was occurring in HO, S, and O.  What really got HO going was that it was the smallest scale generally available at the end of WWII when we entered a period of prosperity for the middle class.  Athearn and MDC/Roundhouse having lots of goodies in the scale helped also.  This gave HO a momentum that has continued to this day.

As for RTR, kits, scratchbuilding, etc. - This is a hobby, do what's fun for you and buy the rest.  Life is too short to waste on things you don't like.

Enjoy

Paul

[blownout cylinder]

West Coast S

How about some compromise? Built up as one feels is required, whatever floats your boat for the rest. Having devoted hundreds, no make that thousands of hours to manfacture specific S steam and rolling stock for my own use. You can bet I got excited when availibilty of a RTR generic wooden reefer was confirmed, as soon as one could say "goodby Visa" 75 were mine for the asking.  Enjoy the hobby as you see fit.

 

Dave  

That works just fine for me!! I'm not saying either/or---there is a lot of room for this so one does not have to panic----

Was that a smoky VISA fire or a 4 alarmer?

[West Coast S]

How about some compromise? Built up as one feels is required, whatever floats your boat for the rest. Having devoted hundreds, no make that thousands of hours to manfacture specific S steam and rolling stock for my own use. You can bet I got excited when availibilty of a RTR generic wooden reefer was confirmed, as soon as one could say "goodby Visa" 75 were mine for the asking.  Enjoy the hobby as you see fit.

 

Dave  

[PRR_in_AZ]

For those who really want to test their "skills" and separate themselves from the RTR crowd there is always proto 87.  Real scale rail and real scale flange height.  Sounds like loads of fun to me.  LOL.

[ham99]

 

The plastic counterweights are impossible.  I went to a bead shop and got some tiny black beads that are close to the same size and much easier to thread.

[blownout cylinder]

Y'know--

As I'm reading these 'screeds' about getting old and crochety with limbs and eyeballs falling out'n peoples heads, and faces falling off skulls, and with thumbs attached to hands backwards, and all this other fine stuff, I started to think about Eric--this 11 year old boy with CP--and his building of kits/detailing. He does these for the challenge of the thing. Not that he ends up with the master crafters work in front of him. Much of his work has some type of construction issue but still---they are HIS doing and his alone. He has pride in what HE has done. Maybe that is what we need to think about here.

Myself---I have the shaky hands, the eyes do not see well---what with floaters and other issues with mine eyes that surround the diabetic I'm not going to go quietly and give up the kit building just because I've got some kind of infirmity. There is some kind of pride in saying look what I built. Even if the dang thing is a PITA, I still will finish it and will say----I BUILT THIS!!! So there---HAAAAARRUUUUUMMPH!!!

It is that one needs to gain just a bit of perspective here---are we building these things for some sort of contest? Last time I checked there wasn't one mentioned---I know a few people are working towards there Merit points but I'm not seeing them giving up if something goes PHOOOF!! on them.

Maybe rant a little ---but hey---

[cahrn]

 I'm  a pretty passive forum lurk, however I will offer my opinion here.

I won't extol the virtues of ready to roll items, and I feel like kits have their time and place, just like RTR. In the last year or two I delved seriously into model railroading. For all intensive purposes this was my first big attempt at modeling trains. I had built something like 35-40 blue box freight and passenger car kits and a mix of Stewart and Athearn locomotive kits. Prior to these train models I had also actively played tabletop miniature war games, where I had the pleasure of building, painting, and decaling each individual unit. I also built numerous 1/35 armor models (pzkpfw IV, jgpz IV, hanomags, T-34-85, light tank M3A3, etc...)

Clearly I enjoy building models, however my most laborious endeavors such as my armor models all produced unique display pieces I could admire. I greatly enjoy building model train kits for rolling stock, locomotives, and buildings. However I feel that it reaches a point of being tedious when I want to put some new boxcars on my layout and I need to build 8 or so kits that are all relatively identical. I would much rather round out my fleet with RTR cars so I can direct my modeling efforts elsewhere. Do I plan on building more kits in the future? Yes, but for now I have had my fill of building kits.

[pastorbob]

CNJ831

selector

ccaranna

I was always under the impression that RTR equipment was mainly produced for the toy train world. Nothing against Lionel or toy trains, but wasn't HO initially designed to be a separate "craftsman" scale for those that wanted to build things? (sigh)

I doubt it.  Seriously.  What would lead you to think that it was that way?  Maybe you are being factious?

-Crandell

Sorry Crandell, but it is Chuck who is largely correct in this instance. As I have pointed out here a number of times, by the late 1930's HO had essentially set itself appart from the Lionel and Flyer crowd, the basically out-of-the-box/RTR toy train segment of the hobby, regarding itself as a strictly craftsman's hobby.

As I've also previously indicated, during the mid 1950's the feeling of separation was so strong that the hobby's major publications formally divorced themselves from the publication of any articles regarding the "toy trains", including Hi-Rail. MR referred to our hobby as "adult scale model railroading" to indicate that it involved skill and craftmanship to participate and not just playing with store bought toy trains. RTR equipment, other than perhaps some locomotives, in those days was commonly called "plastic tin-plate" and looked upon with disdain.

Like it or not, that is the true nature of our hobby, although many latter day hobbyists fail to recognize it, or refuse to accept the fact. Anyone doubting this need only consult issues of MR and RMC from decades past.

CNJ831  

Get over it.  Most of us who "built" in the 50's, like myself, are pretty beat up now, bad eyes, bad hands, other ailments.  There is no way I want to build kits.  However, to be realistic, if we were rugged layout builders like the pioneers, we would have to cut down the trees, and mill them to make our table tops, and to get the wood for wooden kits, we would have to manufacture from raw materials all the things we need to completely scratch build every stinking thing for the railroad, and most of us after 50 years of doing that would be too tired, too worn out, too broke to even think about laying track.  Oh, I forgot, make your own nickle silver rail, and on and on and on.

The world has changed, products have changed, time to spend on hobbies has changed, and thanks to our stinking economy, no one can even afford to buy the raw materials.  At age 73, I am perfectly happy to add new RTR cars to the railroad, and spend my time available on scenery and operations and such.

That is also true of about all the modelers I know.  If you want to buy some balsa and craft your own freight cars, that is fine, power to you.  But don't belittle the rest of us old cusses who are just plain tired and want to enjoy what we have created.  The hobby has persisted not because of you or of me, but because it still attracts new people who are lured by the new products and the availability of "stuff" to "get er moving".

Bob  living in 2009.

Bob

[dehusman]

jecorbett

If the skills I acquire from model building could be applied to other areas of my life, skill development might be a consideration, but for the life of me I can't think of where else I could apply these skills.

It all depends on what you do outside your hobby.  If you don't do anything "crafty" or "artisan" or "handyman" outside of your hobby, then you may be right.  But building something big takes a lot of the same skills as building something small, just using different sized tools.  Measuring, making or reading plans, figuring out sizes of parts figuring out how things go together is all about the same concepts.  House wiring is for the most part waaaaaay simpler than DC model railroad wiring.  If you don't do home improvement projects, if you don't do wood or metal working, if you don't have kids to help with school projects, then you probably won't use model railroading skills outside the hobby.

 As for the continued availability of kits, as long as there is a sufficient market for it, there will be suppliers.

Who defines sufficient?  Athearn Blue box is gone.  Roundhouse kits are gone. The reason is its easier for the company selling the RTR.  It only has to do with what the majority of the modelers will accept.  If they think they can reduce costs by a significant amount and people will buy RTR, the kits are history.  Its not that they will split the production.  They will go 100% to whatever maximizes their profit.  Undec models, virtually gone.  Dummy units, virtually gone.  Minority demand has no place at the table.

 If kits disappear, it will be because buyers will have voted with their dollars what they want. Kits do offer some advantages over built-ups but I'm not sure that outweights their downside. If kits do disappear or become very limited, then kitbashing will become a lost art, but I can see that void being filled by expanded availability of modular components.

What company is providing modular components for freight cars (that doesn't require a commercial car as the major part)? 

The danger for the model manufacturers is really weaning people off kits.  The reason I say that is the advances in resin casting and 3D printing.  I used to kitbash cars from MDC kits.  So MDC got the sale of a kit and I added other parts.  Now if I want more than 3 or 4 of car, I can scratchbuild a master, make an RTV mold and cast my own cars in resin.  I don't buy any MDC products.  Evergreen plastics, Dow Corning and a couple chemical companies get my money instead of MDC.  I get a scratchbuilt car that takes about as much time to assemble as a P2k car kit and amortized over 5-10 cars costs less than a typical RTR model.  With advances in rivet application (rivets applied like decals) even steel cars are within reach.  I had planned to kitbash Bowser GS gons into a sorta B&O1902 hopper bottom gon, but with the rivet decals I think I can make exactly what I want.  By forcing me to learn how to model without mainstream commercial cars, I now can model without ANY mainstream commercial cars if I choose.  As the model manufacturers squeeze out the lower sellers and ONLY sell the few, most popular models, more and more people will figure out how to model without them.  With the 3D printing, the guy with good CAD design skills can make an "inventory" of designs and then print exactly the car you want, just when you want it.  Since a CAD drawing, while expensive to produce, is still way cheaper than tooling. And if they are ever able to laser print lettering directly on the car sides, the conventional model manufacturers are in deep trouble..

[CNJ831]

selector

Thanks for your reply, John.  I will happily defer to you because I simply don't have the history or knowledge that you have.  It just seems odd that, of all things, the HO scale became the defacto repository of all that is 'good' about the hobby in terms of the way it should be practiced by adults.  Why not S, or still O?  Was there something unique and specific, a driver of sorts, or a draw, into this one scale and none of the others?

-Crandell

HO was referred to as the "jewelers' scale" for many years since it required real talent to be good at and one had to build most everything (both Mantua and Varney did offered a limited number of built-up locos in the late 30's and 40's but at a stiff price). In fact, 2-rail 1:48 or 17/64ths O scale (as opposed to toyish 3-rail O-Gauge) was included as part of the adult scale model railroading hobby during that period, but the number of individuals involved in that scale was quite small by the 1950's in comparison to HO. S -gauge was, of course, limited to Flyer trains in that period and was without any real true scale representation. Considering that the era in which HO became the dominant scale had smaller new homes with less space to model in, plus cheaper kits by scale, it's not surprising that HO became the scale of choice of the hobby's true craftsmen. 

MR and RMC had become pretty much HO scale magazines by the early 50's and were aimed toward advanced scratchbuilding, kit building, clever kitbashing and similar articles penned by a host of highly accomplished and skilled hobbyists...because that was what the hobby was about! Likewise, Trackside Photos illustrated a great diversity of talent from the readers. Hobbyists took great pride in their abilities to create realistic models and this is clearly illustrated by negative comments regarding RTR and simplistic car kits that appear in the MR letters-to-the-editor column, reflecting the concern that HO might become just a down-sized Lionel toy train scale. I would also point out that Kalmbach for a time even produced a separate entry-level HO magazine intended to guide and assist folks in developing the basic modeling skills necessary for becoming a traditional HO hobbyist before graduating to reading Model Railroader.

CNJ831

[maxman]

jecorbett

Spare me.

Ah ha!  Proves my point! LOL

[jecorbett]

maxman

jecorbett

If the skills I acquire from model building could be applied to other areas of my life, skill development might be a consideration, but for the life of me I can't think of where else I could apply these skills.

Well, you could learn to be patient.  I'm told that patience is a virtue.

Spare me.

[maxman]

jecorbett

If the skills I acquire from model building could be applied to other areas of my life, skill development might be a consideration, but for the life of me I can't think of where else I could apply these skills.

Well, you could learn to be patient.  I'm told that patience is a virtue.

[selector]

Thanks for your reply, John.  I will happily defer to you because I simply don't have the history or knowledge that you have.  It just seems odd that, of all things, the HO scale became the defacto repository of all that is 'good' about the hobby in terms of the way it should be practiced by adults.  Why not S, or still O?  Was there something unique and specific, a driver of sorts, or a draw, into this one scale and none of the others?

Thanks, again.  Seems it is to be a classroom day for me on this and other subjects.

-Crandell

[BRAKIE]

CNJ831 and all,Let us not forget the HO RTR  cars and locomotives of the 50/60s..RTR isn't anything new..However,that was before its time..RTR time has arrived as we are seeing.