From the numerous replies to my post I gather that there is not only a little interest in having a well built HO scale 4-4-0 of the 1860 - 1880 area in the market. After all, these locos played an important role in the building of the US. I wonder how much longer it will take before the likes of MTH or BLI take up the challenge and release a state-of-the-art Civil War time 4-4-0 into the market. Why not as a set, commemorating the Golden Spike event? I bet it would find a lot of interest - even outside of the world of model railroading.
Buying a used brass loco is unfortunately out of question for me, as returning it is close to impossible for reasons of customs clearing. So I will most likely have to live with those Bachmann "things" and try to beef them up a little.
I think this one looks darned good:
http://cgi.ebay.com/GEM-St-P-P-ST-PAUL-PACIFIC-GN-WILLIAM-CROOKS-4-4-0_W0QQitemZ400079130516QQcmdZViewItemQQptZModel_RR_Trains?hash=item5d26930f94
Phil, I'm not a rocket scientist; they are my students.
With some work, a Bachmann 4-4-0 can be made into a nice runner. All the new ones really need are additional pickups on the tender (easy). I have an older one with a tender-mounted pancake motor, and after a motor replacement, Intermountain 28" metal wheels on the tender, and more tender pickups, it's a pretty nice running model. The newer ones have a 5-pole skewed motor, which should be at least OK.
If you don't mind a slightly larger than HO 4-4-0, the IHCs look pretty good (don't know about the drive), and the AHM/Rivarossis are very nice with a little bit of the usual Rivarossi tweaking.
Or you can get a Mantua General, which can make a pretty decent model.
And then there's brass, but that's usually expensive.
_________________________________________________________________
Here is the webpage for the IHC/MDC 4-4-0 merge
http://www.darksidemodeler.com/4-4-0_merge/
and the "Why" for modeling the 1870's in OO/HO at:
http://www.darksidemodeler.com/1870_why/
Thank you if you visit
Harold
If you are willing to "forgive" the track gauge, OO running on HO track works for the 1860-1870 time period. The ill running IHC superstructure can be mated with the MDC chassis to make a typical 4-4-0.
OO scale people made from shortened Preiser 1/72 people, the guy on the tender is a Langley true OO scale man. The little guy on the running board is HO. Yes, there is that much difference in 15%. That is a merged IHC/MDC 4-4-0. The 66" HO drivers become a typical OO scale 58 inchers. There is a whole lot of stuff in oversize HO and real OO scale that can be used. It is much easier to model in 4mm versus 3.5mm.
I once had webpages describing OO/HO in the 1870's but never reloaded them due to lack of interest. Now I am getting a handle on my health I will probably go in this direction.
Oh, yeah, the Mantua Rodgers is a Sn3-1/2 model of a Southern Pacific Ten-Wheeler. There are plans in Model Railroader awhile back
CNJ831 Although the Mantua General isn't too far off the mark with regard to scale, their Dixie Bell and Rogers (representing engines from later in the 19th century) are way too large for HO. Mantua's pre-war/early post-war Master Model Builder Series engines, which included the Belle of the Eighties and the Eight Ball Mogul, were much closer but of course were not Civil War Era engines either. Not mentioned earlier among the later 19th century HO non-brass models were those colorful yet poorly running engines by Aristo-Craft, most of which were also rather over-sized and by today's standards, rather crude. CNJ831
Although the Mantua General isn't too far off the mark with regard to scale, their Dixie Bell and Rogers (representing engines from later in the 19th century) are way too large for HO. Mantua's pre-war/early post-war Master Model Builder Series engines, which included the Belle of the Eighties and the Eight Ball Mogul, were much closer but of course were not Civil War Era engines either.
Not mentioned earlier among the later 19th century HO non-brass models were those colorful yet poorly running engines by Aristo-Craft, most of which were also rather over-sized and by today's standards, rather crude.
CNJ831
Unfortunately, the Aristo-Craft models have a too-high incidence of zinc pest or rot. On more than a few of these, the impurities in the die cast material has caused it to disintegrate and crumble over time. Zinc rot is not unknown in other brands - I have a pre-war Lionel loco with crumbling driver flanges - but the percentage is much, much smaller than Aristo-Craft. That said, if you come across an Aristo-Craft nowadays with no rot, chances are it will remain that way.
The other flaw with the Aristo-Craft was that the motor and gearing was more rudimentary than most. And being inexpensive to begin with, very few got remotored and regeared because the cost of doing so was more than the model was worth.
A well-done tender drive is beautiful in these tiny models. A Locodoc kit in an FED HOn3 4-4-0 or 2-6-0 makes it a very good performer. The drive shaft going from tender to cab in the remotor kit becomes a thin piece of wire. The locomotive can have more weight, and the weight be properly balanced, when the motor is in the tender instead of sticking out the back of the cab - all very important to making a 4-4-0 perform well. With the motor in the tender, it now has just enough weight to pick up power properly.
just my experiences
Fred W
True, there aren’t many options for obtaining good 19th century HO Americans. But don't despair. As others note, you can always find an old Mantua “General” on eBay. A loose rendition of a 1870s rebuild of a 1850s engine, it isn’t an authentic representation of either era. Still, as Thom Radice’s work shows, it can be made into an acceptable stand-in for Civil War locomotives. With more effort it can be even better: look in the photo and files on the Yahoo Civil War Railroads site (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Civil_War_RRs/) for ideas. Also, BTS has announced that it plans to bring out a more accurate boiler for this model.
The Bachmann models of the Centennial CP and UP 1860s engines that are still on the market are another possibility. If better proportioned than the General, they are cruder mechanically and don’t run too well. Then there are the PFM and Balboa brass models of the Centennial CP and UP 4-4-0s. Though rarer and often a bit more expensive, they are good representations of their 1860s prototypes and can be made to run fairly well. Finally, the best looking model of a mid-nineteenth century locomotive, the Gem Wm. Crooks, is still another possibility. One is on auction online this very week.
Old AHM/IHC models of the V&T Reno represent a slightly later 1870s prototype. They run fairly well (though not on code 70 or smaller rail due to deep flanges); but they were built to OO scale of 1:76 and are oversize for HO. More to scale are the PFM United brass models of the Reno. These appear on eBay with regular frequency for about $200-300. Take a look at Don Ball’s customized versions on his S&C web site (http://www.sandcrr.com/).
Oddly no firm has ever offered a faithful model of a 1880s American. Mantua long sold a kit for what it called “the Belle of the Eighties.” A plain model without a clear prototype, it was based on parts designed for a 1890s style mogul that the firm also produced and hardly looked much like a 1880s engine. The more recently offered MDC Roundhouse (now Athearn) “Old-time” American has similar issues. It uses parts originally based on a D&RG consolidation as modernized in the 20th century and has neither the outline nor proportion of most Americans of the last quarter of the 19th century. But, as Rich has noted in many of his posts, it runs well and can easily be modified for DCC and sound. Also, Harold Minky once had a tutorial on his former Pacific Coast Airline website showing how to kit-bash one with the boiler and cab of an IHC American to make a better proportioned loco.
The 1890s are better served. Decades ago Gem and other firms imported a well proprtioned model of a mid-1890s high-drivered NYC express 4-4-0. And Bachmann's current Spectrum series Richmond 4-4-0, though styled in early twentieth century garb, is based on a design from the 1890s. So it can easily be backdated to that era with a few small changes. Of all HO American models, this one is probably the best in terms of its detail, prototypical looks, and good running qualities.
Frank
I am really supprised with the higher quality micro motors with gear heads on them, we havent seen a nice diecast and correctly modeled civil war era General from one of the model companies. Its a well known engine, could be offered in several styles, pre rebuilt/prewar era, war time with Mr Andrews in the cab along with the rest of the crew, pics exhist of them. Then they could offer the rebuilt version. Off shoots could the the Texas or any of the other engines of that time frame. I think the market would gobble them up like hotcakes, I still see the old Mantua General fetch decent prices for how crude it looks. but I have seen them redone with more scale pilot truck wheels, can motors with gear heads to slow them down and give good low speed performance. But your right, what was a very interesting time in America is vastly ignored by the manufactures. its a shame to, small engines, small rolling stock just natuarly lends itself to small layouts. Track was layed right on the dirt many times with little to no ballest some times. Bridges were of the covered style many times. The turn of the century era has been helped recently by Bachmann with the more modern 4-4-0's and Roundhouse RTR engines, now we need someone to step up with a nice civil war era engine that runs well. Mike
LHS mechanic and geniune train and antique garden tractor nut case!
The Reno, V&T no. 11, was built in 1872, but the Genoa, no. 12, of 1873, and the Inyo, no. 22, of 1875 were essentially the same. See the Model Railroader Cyclopedia, Vol. 1: Steam Locomotives, pages 100-101.
So long,
Andy
Andy Sperandeo MODEL RAILROADER Magazine
wjstix (The MILW continued running 3' gauge lines in Iowa into the 1930's by the way, using 2-6-0 engines also pretty close to the Spectrum moguls.)
(The MILW continued running 3' gauge lines in Iowa into the 1930's by the way, using 2-6-0 engines also pretty close to the Spectrum moguls.)
If interested, buy/read John Tigges and Jon Jacobson's 258-page book Milwaukee Road Narrow Gauge -- The Chicago, Vellevue, Cascade & Western -- Iowa's Slim Princess published by Heimburger House Publishing Company.
Mark
I think if I were considering a 19th century layout I'd probably move up to O scale or at least maybe S (hmmm...I think I still have my American Flyer 4-4-0 around somewhere). I'd maybe consider narrow gauge too. From about 1880 to 1903 the Milwaukee Road operated some 3' gauge lines in southern Minnesota that I've thought would be fun to model. They used little 4-4-0 engines about the overall size and shape of the Spectrum On30 engines. (The MILW continued running 3' gauge lines in Iowa into the 1930's by the way, using 2-6-0 engines also pretty close to the Spectrum moguls.)
.... AND the Central Pacific's 4-4-0 number 1 Governor Stanford.
http://www.csrmf.org/library-and-collections/full-size-railroad-equipment/steam-locomotives/central-pacific-railroad-no-1-gov-stanford
.... as well as North Pacific Coast's narrow gauge 4-4-0 no. 12 Sonoma.
http://www.csrmf.org/library-and-collections/full-size-railroad-equipment/steam-locomotives/north-pacific-coast-railroad-no-12-sonoma
Sperandeo For years Pacific Fast Mail imported an accurately scaled United HO model of the Virginia & Truckee 4-4-0 Reno.
For years Pacific Fast Mail imported an accurately scaled United HO model of the Virginia & Truckee 4-4-0 Reno.
The V&T's 4-4-0 #12 Genoa is on exhibit at the California Railroad Museum.
http://www.csrmf.org/library-and-collections/full-size-railroad-equipment/steam-locomotives/virginia-and-truckee-no-12-genoa
For years Pacific Fast Mail imported an accurately scaled United HO model of the Virginia & Truckee 4-4-0 Reno. These are much more common on the used brass market than the Golden Spike sets, and aren't bad runners as they come. They can run very well indeed with a can motor and a better drive shaft (tender drive, you know). A friend of mine adds contacts on the tender trucks so all the tender wheels pick up current. He puts DCC sound in these engines too, which is pretty much beyond me. The Reno is a little bigger engine than the General, but still not very big.
Prototypes and especially models of the American Standard 4-4-0 wheel arrangement are extremely poor pullers.
were the ones built in North America, not South America or Central America. Actually built in the United States to be completely accurate.
Rich
If you ever fall over in public, pick yourself up and say “sorry it’s been a while since I inhabited a body.” And just walk away.
wjstix Not sure it's the Mantua General or some other engine, but it seems to me there was an issue where some early 4-4-0 engine models are/were actually OO scale not HO - that is, 4mm to the foot rather than 3.5mm to the foot...I assume to allow for a larger motor to be used.
Not sure it's the Mantua General or some other engine, but it seems to me there was an issue where some early 4-4-0 engine models are/were actually OO scale not HO - that is, 4mm to the foot rather than 3.5mm to the foot...I assume to allow for a larger motor to be used.
You are thinking about the IHC/AHM/Rivarossi/Pocher 4-4-0's. They were produced from the mid 1970's up through the late 90's. and they show up all the time on EvilBay---routinely selling for anywhere from $30 to $80---based on condition. Several EBay stores still have some new in the box models that are priced in the $100 range.
They are modeled after the 1870's Baldwins used by the Virginia & Truckee. There is also a vintage 2-4-0 switcher as part of the series. (Check my user name) While they are nice looking engines---including some brass detail and well built, they are all about 20% over scale--actually about 15% too long and 20% too tall when compared to the prototypes they are supposed to represent. This mean that they are closer to OO or On30. They would actually make good kit bash bases for On30.
Another issue is that they have pizza cutter wheel flanges, which means that they will not run on code 70 track and have problems with some code 83 turnouts. Code 100 track was pretty much the standard when these models were first introduced, so it was not an issue then.
Other than than the Bachmann "Golden Spike" old timers and the old Tyco/Mantua "General" there is not much else available beside the occasional expensive and slightly rare brass engines that were imported by PFM and others almost as long ago. The brass Golden spike models will run you in excess of $400 and the PFM Reno's will hit $300 or more
You seriously might want to reconsider the Bachmann's. The quality of the original production was not that good and really was aimed at the Toys -R-Us type market. However, they re-tooled and re-issued the engines a couple of years ago, and they are much improved. They both look and run better than the older versions. The newer models can be identified as they come in a blue box while the old models came in a white box.
Cheers
Stix - Most of the HO models representing mid 19th century motive power are over-sized to some degree, or other. Also, virtually all have the motor in the tender, adding an additional distortion to the design.
Not sure if you're set on the 1860s era, or if you just like the basic look of the 4-4-0. I think it was Roundhouse that released a "modernized" version of the 4-4-0 recently, that would be appropriate for the early 20th century (1920s and 1930s).
EDIT: never mind, I just re-read the initial post and it does say you are interested in the 1860s era... Sorry about that
Dan Stokes
My other car is a tunnel motor
I thought that civil war layout was so wonderful that I emailed a link to my none MRR friends and their responses were enthusiastic to say the least. If I could get my hands on some wood cab 4-4-0s of quality you wouldn't see me for smoke going to get them.
I am really drawn to 1800s railroading and find it a charming era. However like many others I have gone to the transition era. That being said, I am building my 1950s layout so I will be able to go back to that pre 1900s time with the removal of engines and rolling stock and switching out of a few buildings. I just don't know how to deal with the paved roads as I will want that horse and buggy look. Having those old timers running around my layout would also make it seem that much larger just because of the slower speeds involved.
Brent
"All of the world's problems are the result of the difference between how we think and how the world works."
Sir Madogall I can find are these toy-like Bachmann "things"
all I can find are these toy-like Bachmann "things"
That is an accurate assessment of the current pre-1890 HO scale motive power market. The only other option is to look for a used/second-hand model.
There are nice craftsman rolling stock kits available, but that's not much help when you can't get a decent locomotive.
Hi Ulrich,
First thanks for all your so kindly comments about my post.
I don't know a lot about this period but the railroad linked is a good replica of the Housatonic RR in the 1890/1910 period.
Many of the trains running are modified ones or scratchbuild. The builder is also offering some casting of car of this period, here is the link http://housatonicrr.com/
The construction journal explain a lot about all these scratchbuilding project.
Good visit.
Marc
Ulrich
The Mantua General is a good starting point. But keep in mind most models of the General are based on her 1870s appearance after a rebuild. The rebuild converted the General from an outside frame to a more normal looking inside frame. BTS is supposed to be bringing out a new boiler for the Mantua model. I'm not sure what era the boiler will represent.
PFM did do the CP and UP locomotives from the Golden Spike. They can be found used.
Bachmann Spectrum and Roundhouse have brought out 4-4-0s that are reasonable for the 1890s, and are reasonable runners.
BTS and Alkem have some fine car kits appropriate for the Civil War era.
SMR has imported some very fine Civil War-era models in O scale.
The Yahoo Early Rail and Civil War RR groups (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Civil_War_RRs/ and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EarlyRail/) have a wealth of information and plenty of knowledgeable folks. If you are serious, the groups are well worth joining.
....modeling foggy coastal Oregon, where it's always 1900....
Aside from the old Mantua "General" that was first offered about 4 decades ago, plus the later AHM and Bachmann items, little in the way of accurate Civil War era 4-4-0 type locomotives has ever been offered, even in brass. The interest in modeling that particular era has always been extremely limited in the United States, so little in the way of appropriate motive power and rolling stock has ever appeared in the marketplace. Those interested in modeling that era successfully have mainly been talented scratchbuilders willing to extensively modify and upgrade what little has been offered commercially, or build their models completely from scratch.
The era 1880-1900 has been better represented in commercial HO equipment (particularly years ago) but even there the number of items is small.
The video on a Civil War themed layout was so inspiring that I am now searching for a typical locomotive of that era - the famous 4-4-0 "American". For me, this type of loco is the epitome of American steam locomotives.
Much to my dismay, all I can find are these toy-like Bachmann "things" - are there any better ones around? I remember PFM importing nice brass models in 1969 as a centennial set, commemorating the Golden Spike.