I guess discussing the bad behavior of MR advertisers is taboo, since the BLI - MTH thread is now locked dispite no flaming and declining activity in the last day.
I was going to post this there, but at the risk of deletion or locking here goes:
Today Factory Direct Trains, by e-mail announcement, is allready beginning the closeout of the NEW, improved, Paragon2, smoking J1E NYC Hudson from BLI.
Is this to get rid of them before trial day? Is this to raise cash to pay the lawyers? Is this simply because BLI is allready cash strapped?
Just another fine example of why the business practices of this company are not good for the hobby. If I had just bought one of those things 3 months ago (how long have they been out?, not long?) at say only 20% off retail, I would be very unhappy to now see the same source selling them for 43% off, especially so soon.
Ken may be a real nice guy, I don't know him, but as someone who has a business background, has worked in the hobby business, and has been a modeler for 40 years, I can tell you the actions of his company are not good for the hobby or his company in the long run.
Ken - suggestion, get some more money or scale back, or give it up. This constant dumping of product only undermines the value of your products as a whole in the market place, as does your constant problems with Mike Wolf (Ken, you may be in the right, but it looks bad no mater what). OR be like Bachmann and just lower your prices and move more product.
I for one will NEVER buy another BLI product unless the price is in that 40-50% off range. But look at the bright side Ken, I will never buy an MTH product, period.
Sheldon
No, it's not good for the hobby. Any small or medium hobby shop owner would have to have rocks in their head to stock BLI products, knowing that they'll soon be available at less than wholesale like this.
I've been getting BLI / FTD e-mails about this sale for a couple of weeks now, so the timing with the MTH announcement may be coincidental. My guess is, the market for smoking Hudsons isn't as big as they anticipated, so they've got excess inventory to unload. I bought my BLI Hudson a few years back from Trainworld - no smoke, but QSI sound, at the sacrificial price of $129.
My question is, though, where did they get my e-mail address? I've never dealt directly with either BLI or FTD, so some other model railroad organization must have sold them my name. I'm not terribly upset by this, since they are sending me potentially useful information, but this is how the Spam chains start.
It takes an iron man to play with a toy iron horse.
MisterBeasleyI've been getting BLI / FTD e-mails about this sale for a couple of weeks now, so the timing with the MTH announcement may be coincidental.
That may be, sometimes I delete their e-mails without reading.
MisterBeasleyMy guess is, the market for smoking Hudsons isn't as big as they anticipated, so they've got excess inventory to unload.
But how can that be? Acording to Ken and Mike, EVERYBODY wants station sounds and puffing smoke - even if Ken is wrong, surely Mike Wolf is not wrong.
Well they do have my e-mail by direct means, I purchased some undecorated PCM F3's from FDT when they where giving them away for $50 a set, but only after calling BLI to make sure it woud be easy to rewire them to do away with the "lash up" - What "MTH/Lionel" kind of idea was that?
ATLANTIC CENTRALIs this to get rid of them before trial day? Is this to raise cash to pay the lawyers? Is this simply because BLI is allready cash strapped?
Sheldon,
BLI does these sorts of deep-cut sales on a fairly regular basis. So, to jump to these conclusions is a bit premature - at best.
This is just a suggestion: Why not express you views with Ken directly instead of posting them here. He's more apt to read them that way.
https://tstage9.wixsite.com/nyc-modeling
Time...It marches on...without ever turning around to see if anyone is even keeping in step.
I'm still waiting for BLI to release their Dreyfuss Hudson which has been "Coming Soon" for about three years. Somebody told me they really, really, really, were going to release it this December. I'll believe it when I see it. Meanwhile, MTH has beat them to the punch with their Dreyfuss Hudson and also the Empire State Hudson but at a list price $100 more than BLI. I'm in no hurry so I'm going to wait and see how this all shakes out.
"Is this simply because BLI is allready cash strapped?"
Tom,
This possible reason is largely unrelated to the lawsuit and is a point I and others have made before. So its not premature at all. The lawsuit simply brings it to the forefront once again.
tstageBLI does these sorts of deep-cut sales on a fairly regular basis.
And again, this is bad for them and the hobby.
I have expressed these thoughts diretly to Ken/BLI, as recently as today in fact.
I don't understand this dumping of inventory either. The review for this unit came out just a couple of months ago in MR, and now it's closing out. I'm fairly new to the hobby, but I've never seen any kind of products available in such limited releases and certainly with such high price swing. Not only does this hurt all resellers but it also makes it hard for customers to get the engine you want at any given time. If you missed release time - you might have to wait another couple of years.Or you pay close to retail when product come out and then watch engines sell 1/2 price 3 month later or you don't buy it right away waiting for sale and then see product suddenly disappear from stock.
I guess it makes comprehensive user review of such engine kind of useless, because by the time someone reads your review - the product is gone.
MisterBeasley My question is, though, where did they get my e-mail address? I've never dealt directly with either BLI or FTD, so some other model railroad organization must have sold them my name. I'm not terribly upset by this, since they are sending me potentially useful information, but this is how the Spam chains start.
My guess would be that Kalmbach sold our e-mail addresses to them (I could VERY well be wrong). I started receiving those in my inbox, and was wondering about the same thing myself. This is the only model railroading type website that I am registered with, so it makes sense to me.
The timing for this is kinda made weird by the conjunction of the MTH/BLI thing ----
I'm just thinking that a lot of "pre-orders" plopped out.
Desperate times and desperate measures---
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
ATLANTIC CENTRALToday Factory Direct Trains, by e-mail announcement, is allready beginning the closeout of the NEW, improved, Paragon2, smoking J1E NYC Hudson from BLI.
$200 bucks for a paragon 2 with DCC sound and smoke? I'm buying one! I don't have any steam loco's yet on my layout, I'm just looking for a tourist train for an excuse to run steam in 1995.
I know nothing about steam engines. BLI offers 5 versions. I assume just different numbers and slight model year differences? Does it matter which one I buy? And what passenger cars do I need to buy to make this authentic? Dual 3 axle?
If you really want to be authentic, avoid any locomotive that was not in ralifan service in 1995, or couldn't have been because they are all gone, extinct, scrapped. That would include the NYC Hudsons.
I also think its just bad timing, at all the recent train shows I have attended with my friend that sells there, also has a brick and morter hobby shop here in town. The things selling havent been the high $$ engines, but the RTR freight cars from Athearn/Roundhouse and other brands, along with vehicles, buildings ect. The last 3 months we might have sold 3 engines total. We usualy have the newest from Athearn and Bachmann with us. The only thing that sold well was the DD40AX the first show after thier release, I think we sold 4 at that show as thats all we had in stock. And the lack of sales isnt from the prices, his are some of the best around, even at shows. Its very unfortunate to have these two guys constantly going at each other. The two need to clear the air and focus on differnt aspects of the hobby instead of fighting over the same small piece of the pie. As for Mr. Mike Wolf, I will hold my comments as I dont care for him or his general attitude/business style. It might fill his wallet, but it defiantly doesnt earn him much for friends. I refuse to buy any MTH product on principal, I can buy a vintage brass engine for usualy less than his sell for, but then again, I enjoy making them run nice. Lets hope this blows over and we can get back to the fun aspect of the hobby. There is way way to much repetition between companies right now. If limited runs are the future of plastic models, lets seem some really obscure items produced. Heck, 10 years ago, if you asked anyone if we would see UP big blow and veranda turbines in plastic, they would have said no way!, no how! Only one road owned them! But look what Athearn has done and has announced and they sold well from what I hear. Lets see some good running turn of the century steam, how about a Broadway quality, mostly diecast 4-4-0 either the Jupiter or a correct version of the General with the outside frame she had during the civil war. How about more "work a day" engines instead of 4-12-2's, Big Boys, J class, GS4's ect. Small steam that runs well, mostly diecast so it pulls well. There is enough prototypes out there to not be copying each other. MTH should also license out their pufffing smoke, if Mike Wolf really wanted to help the hobby, he would license out thier cutting edge technoligy, one to maximize his earnings thru licensing, and let the buying public decide if his models are worth the asking price or the competition's offerings. The constant lawsuits, bad press really do more to hurt the hobby than these two realize. We all know the Chinese are excellent at reverse engineering things and have no issues doing it. So I am not supprised by any of this. They probably thought they had modified it enough that it wouldnt infringe on any patents and told Bob this, and maybe it did to them. Guess the courts will decide now. For now, grab the deals while you can. Maybe we can have a good Christmas this year with the deals on models. Cheers Mike
LHS mechanic and geniune train and antique garden tractor nut case!
Robt. LivingstonIf you really want to be authentic, avoid any locomotive that was not in ralifan service in 1995, or couldn't have been because they are all gone, extinct, scrapped. That would include the NYC Hudsons.
For $200 I choose not to be authentic
ATLANTIC CENTRALI for one will NEVER buy another BLI product unless the price is in that 40-50% off range. But look at the bright side Ken, I will never buy an MTH product, period. Sheldo
Sheldo
I feel the same way about purchasing any BLI products early since history has proven that the BLI big blow out sales will happen on most of their models if you wait. The only problem with this approach is some items do sell out and if you really wanted it, you missed it.
AS for MTH products, I have the MTH N&W passenger set reserved after I viewed the pictures. If they don't look like the advertised pictures, I am sending them back.
What to do??
CZ
This particular sale is limited to Hudsons only. That makes me think that this sale is strictly based on production exceeding demand for this model.
There is another possibility, though. They may be coming out with a different model in a few months, possibly with a different sound system, or maybe without a smoke box. Once the newer model hits the streets, demand for the older one would dry up, so they're moving them now before announcing the new one.
Question - is this one of the models that has a sound decoder but no motor decoder? Again, if they are planning to come out with the same engine equipped with a motor decoder as well, that would devalue the current inventory.
I like my Hudson, by the way. All other things being equal, this is probably a chance to get a nice engine for a good price.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI guess discussing the bad behavior of MR advertisers is taboo, since the BLI - MTH thread is now locked...
ATLANTIC CENTRAL, something apparently sailed past me in the dark and I don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about. I sense, however, that MTH has found some reason for bringing a suit against BLI for something-or-another. This guy is litigation crazy! One of these days he's going to lose and when he does he is going to get smacked so hard that his head will ring for months.
There is some controversy about the quality of MTH's offering as there is similiar controversy about BLI's. I am reminded of that old ballyhoo about "If you can't dazzle'em with brilliance baffle'em with BS"
My curiousity, by-the-way, has now been tweeked; can someone provide me with the title of the posting that has now, apparently, been locked, or at least the forum name of the original poster?
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
I'm surprised MTH hasn't announced that it is bringing a very nice Pennsy Q2 to the market (checks BLI's delivery schedule....) in November. Serously, though, will we see that model from BLI?
-Crandell
P.S.- RT, here it is, halfway down page 2 at the time of posting this:
http://cs.trains.com/trccs/forums/t/161867.aspx
CAZEPHYR AS for MTH products, I have the MTH N&W passenger set reserved after I viewed the pictures. If they don't look like the advertised pictures, I am sending them back. CZ
Please note the pictures MTH has shown of the N&W and NYC Passenger cars were proven to be all of previous brass imports and not any of their own work.
Rick
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
dti406 CAZEPHYR AS for MTH products, I have the MTH N&W passenger set reserved after I viewed the pictures. If they don't look like the advertised pictures, I am sending them back. CZ Please note the pictures MTH has shown of the N&W and NYC Passenger cars were proven to be all of previous brass imports and not any of their own work. Rick
Didn't BLI do the same thing by using photos of brass cars imported by CLI when they first announced the Daylight cars?
CSX RobertATLANTIC CENTRALI guess discussing the bad behavior of MR advertisers is taboo, since the BLI - MTH thread is now locked... Did you read the next to last post in that thread? Clearly a violation of the forum rule "No personal attacks or name-calling."
I read the post, sounded like a statement of known facts and the posters opinion about those facts. What name was anyone called?
I didn't know that a lucid, careful, polite, professional discription of a persons know public behavior would be considered a "personal attack" or "name calling", even if those obvious facts are unflattering.
I've read a lot worse on here, some directed at me, sometimes they get locked, sometimes not.
ATLANTIC CENTRALI read the post, sounded like a statement of known facts and the posters opinion about those facts. What name was anyone called?
None. At least no poster here anyway that I could see. My guess is that they believed the thread ran its course and closed it.
ATLANTIC CENTRALWhat name was anyone called?
ATLANTIC CENTRALI didn't know that a lucid, careful, polite, professional discription of a persons know public behavior would be considered a "personal attack" or "name calling"
The fact of the matter is that he is technically incompetent and not an entirely successful decision maker. He is also pathologically competitive, a consummate egotist and a sore loser.
Driline ATLANTIC CENTRALI read the post, sounded like a statement of known facts and the posters opinion about those facts. What name was anyone called? None. At least no poster here anyway that I could see. My guess is that they believed the thread ran its course and closed it.
I think that your assessment is true. If there was something along that line of insults and such a comment would have been made regarding such.
Sometimes they just close it---
Driline ATLANTIC CENTRALI read the post, sounded like a statement of known facts and the posters opinion about those facts. What name was anyone called? None. At least no poster here anyway that I could see...
None. At least no poster here anyway that I could see...
csmith9474Didn't BLI do the same thing by using photos of brass cars imported by CLI when they first announced the Daylight cars?
Yes, it is a practice that most companies use, but when they do that, I expect the models to be equal to or close to that example. They could use the prototype and that would be acceptable. We would equate the future model to their past performance. If those products were poor, we would skip the new products. ln the case of BLI, the Zephyr cars would tend to make me believe the new Daylight cars would be very good, but mistakes can happen.
When I examine how good the MTH locomotives have been , I expect the new cars to cut some corners but be acceptable. I don't know what corners will be cut or what will be changed, but the MTH GS6 and the GS4 both have 77' size drivers. It turns out this is not correct for either locomotive but was a convenient way of sharing the drive system. The MTH UP 4-12-2 has 64" scale drivers and the real on has 67". The sand dome on the 4-12-2 is not correct for any era. I have books that show vitually every 4-12-2 and none had that dome.
The left hand side of the upper headlight nose on the MTH Model GS4 should not have that large flat spot. Who knows why that happened.
When you actually look at the details, there is a difference.
I still have high hopes the Passenger cars will be acceptable.
I think this thread is getting sidetracked rather fast.
I think what ticked off admins was remark that "someone with brains" should take over BLI and MTH tooling. I would rather see offending post removed rather than the whole thread locked. It's not like anyone here actually knows the details of BLI and MTH dealings, let's move on.
Now continue talking about crazy BLI discounts and quality of Paragon 2 steam