dti406I don't have my Brown Book available, but I do remember somebody importing the Virginian 2-10-10-2. I will look it up when I get home.
I don't have my Brown Book available, but I do remember somebody importing the Virginian 2-10-10-2. I will look it up when I get home.
The Virginian 2-10-10-2 was imported by Gem and Custom Brass, the last being in 1979. Some others might have been made later, but Custom Brass is listed as importing 200 each of those locomotives.
CZ
Barry:
I hope someone can come up with the answer for you. That would be quite a loco in brass, by golly!
The only 2-10-10-2 in brass I ever remember seeing was a brass 'kitbash' by Bill Schopp in an article in Railroad Model Craftsman sometime during the 1960's. He took two Westside 900 series Santa Fe 2-10-2's and hacked them into a really SPECTACULAR Mallet!
Of course, this was back in the days when brass was 'relatively' affordable, and a modeler could do something like this without causing every one else to die of a heart attack, LOL!
Actually, Schopp gave me the courage to convert my PFM Santa Fe 2-10-2 into a kinda/sorta Rio Grande F-81. After that chilling 'first cut', the rest of it wasn't too bad. It's still running, and darned if it doesn't LOOK like an F-81, after I bought my new PSC model of the same loco a couple of years ago. In fact, I pair them up, sometimes, by golly!
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
I sometimes wish I had a 'Brass Book' here---b/c it might tell me this:
Did/Does anyone know whether this particular fellow was made in brass?---a "Virginian Ry" 2-10-10-2? I know that it was a drag freight specialist of some sort with a tractive effort of some 147,000 lbs compound. But------?
Of course one could scratchbuild --- yeah, right--- the thing--I think I may have enough brass in sheets and rods and enough wheelsets etc----
My collector side just went----
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
twhitePacker CB&Q Modeler On the other hand UP. 4-6-6-4s & 4-8-8-4s have been done ad nauseum. Yet no one does a D&H, GN, NP, SP&S, or true DRGW Challengers. I'm not a steam guy, but wouldn't using one of the several hundred thousand UP challenger out there to kitbash into one of the non-modeled ones be possbile? They're kind of like the F-units to me, everyone does the ATSF ones, but no one does the BN ones. Vincent: You'd need to do a LOT of kit-bashing by literally constructing a new elongated boiler and bigger firebox and a totally different style of either open or enclosed cab. About the only thing the "Z"'s had in common with the UP Challengers is the wheel arrangement and the fact that they were both constructed by ALCO. Other than that, for sheer size and tractive effort, the "Z's" left the UP Challengers back at the starting gate, LOL! Those UP Challengers were just fine for what they did on the road they were designed for, but the Hill Lines 4-6-6-4's were designed bigger and heavier for different territory. IMO, the Rio Grande 3700's were the T-Rex's of 4-6-6-4's. They were just beautiful MONSTERS! Tom
Packer CB&Q Modeler On the other hand UP. 4-6-6-4s & 4-8-8-4s have been done ad nauseum. Yet no one does a D&H, GN, NP, SP&S, or true DRGW Challengers. I'm not a steam guy, but wouldn't using one of the several hundred thousand UP challenger out there to kitbash into one of the non-modeled ones be possbile? They're kind of like the F-units to me, everyone does the ATSF ones, but no one does the BN ones.
CB&Q Modeler On the other hand UP. 4-6-6-4s & 4-8-8-4s have been done ad nauseum.
Yet no one does a D&H, GN, NP, SP&S, or true DRGW Challengers. I'm not a steam guy, but wouldn't using one of the several hundred thousand UP challenger out there to kitbash into one of the non-modeled ones be possbile? They're kind of like the F-units to me, everyone does the ATSF ones, but no one does the BN ones.
Vincent:
You'd need to do a LOT of kit-bashing by literally constructing a new elongated boiler and bigger firebox and a totally different style of either open or enclosed cab. About the only thing the "Z"'s had in common with the UP Challengers is the wheel arrangement and the fact that they were both constructed by ALCO. Other than that, for sheer size and tractive effort, the "Z's" left the UP Challengers back at the starting gate, LOL!
Those UP Challengers were just fine for what they did on the road they were designed for, but the Hill Lines 4-6-6-4's were designed bigger and heavier for different territory.
IMO, the Rio Grande 3700's were the T-Rex's of 4-6-6-4's. They were just beautiful MONSTERS!
You are absolutely correct and the the Z class being much larger overall than the UP Challengers. I have two of the Z8's and they are very large locomotives and were much heavier.
The D&RGW did not like the six UP copies of the Challengers since they were not as heavy as the L105's and would not do what the D&RWG needed on their line. The UP Challengers were made for fast running on light grades and did that job well. The weight on the drivers of the L105 was 479,979 lbs and the total engine weight was 641,900 listed in Steam's Finest hour.
The UP engines only had 404,000 on the drivers but weighed 627,000, which is not too far on total weight from the L105's. The weight on the drivers made the difference for pulling power.
ngartshore350CAZEPHYR I don't have the U50 since it is newer than the era I model, but the Trains Inc. models were in general very poor runners. I know there are probably exceptions, but buying it unseen and not watching it run might lead to a big disappointment. The ALCO models which I have owned several were built by KTM and should run OK, but are probably noisy. CZ CZ, Thanks for that info, fortunately they have a test track and he has a policy of running all locos before you buy them. I will certainly be seeing it run before handing over any dollars. Perhaps I might have to research re-motoring? Got any good references? What is the best thing to really clean the body before airbrushing? I don't want to paint it just to have it come off shortly afterwards or because I used a silican based cleaner causing a similar issue. Nige.
CAZEPHYR I don't have the U50 since it is newer than the era I model, but the Trains Inc. models were in general very poor runners. I know there are probably exceptions, but buying it unseen and not watching it run might lead to a big disappointment. The ALCO models which I have owned several were built by KTM and should run OK, but are probably noisy. CZ
I don't have the U50 since it is newer than the era I model, but the Trains Inc. models were in general very poor runners. I know there are probably exceptions, but buying it unseen and not watching it run might lead to a big disappointment.
The ALCO models which I have owned several were built by KTM and should run OK, but are probably noisy.
CZ,
Thanks for that info, fortunately they have a test track and he has a policy of running all locos before you buy them. I will certainly be seeing it run before handing over any dollars. Perhaps I might have to research re-motoring? Got any good references?
What is the best thing to really clean the body before airbrushing? I don't want to paint it just to have it come off shortly afterwards or because I used a silican based cleaner causing a similar issue.
Nige.
Nige
Any good quality can motor with flywheels will improve those older units about 170% or more. Just the replacement of the early motors will make a difference. Be sure to get new slip tubing or use u joints for the drive to improve the slow resonse.
Painting is easy if you have the proper equipment. I use cleaners and a glass beading box to clean the brass. Using the glass bead cleaner at low pressure will make the brass look like new. Then it goes into an Ultra Sonic cleaner in a solution of water with a few drops of dish washing soap for about twenty minutes. Most modelers probably do not have this equipment, but you could arrange for a local painter to prep the model for you. At that point, the unit is painted and I use an oven to bake it at 190 degrees for at least 90 minutes. The finish is as good as you can get if you do this right.
One problem with kitbashing a UP Challenger into a GN/NP/SP&S "Z" series is that when you come right down to it, even though the UP Challengers were the most numerous (105) of the wheel arrangements, they were actually the kinda/sorta "babies" of that wheel arrangement as per length, weight and tractive effort. Those "Hill Line" Z-challengers were real beasts. Tall, long, and a lot heavier. You'd need to do a LOT of kit-bashing by literally constructing a new elongated boiler and bigger firebox and a totally different style of either open or enclosed cab. About the only thing the "Z"'s had in common with the UP Challengers is the wheel arrangement and the fact that they were both constructed by ALCO. Other than that, for sheer size and tractive effort, the "Z's" left the UP Challengers back at the starting gate, LOL!
And as far as the Rio Grande 3700 Baldwin-built L-105's--well, just looking at their lines and comparing them to the UP's, about all you'd be left with for starters would be the two sets of drivers. Everything else would have to be scratched. You'd be better off looking for a used Westside brass L-105--which actually can be got sometimes for about the same price as a new plastic UP Challenger.
ngartshore350Perhaps I might have to research re-motoring? Got any good references? What is the best thing to really clean the body before airbrushing? I don't want to paint it just to have it come off shortly afterwards or because I used a silican based cleaner causing a similar issue. Nige.
Re-motoring and re-gearing is a lot easier than one would think. Definitely research and give it a whirl.
I just painted two brass cabooskies yesterday and the body prep/cleaining consisted of dish soap, warm water, and a toothbrush. Blow bry with compressed air (careful of the fine details). Painted locos the same way. To paint them correctly you need to blow them apart anyway so water isn't an issue.
And I always use primer.
San Dimas Southern slideshow
ngartshore350I too have been interested in Brass, I have my eye on a U50 but I think it is a few years old, not Overland, perhaps Trains Inc or Alco. Anybody got good or bad experieinecs with one of these? As mentioned above, havn't seen a plastic U50 so looking at going down the Brass route, wouldn't mind one of those blaster turbines but the price is too much for me! Can anyone tell me the best way to paint a brass locomotive, i.e preperation to remove tarnish and if an undercoat is a must, etc? Nige.
I too have been interested in Brass, I have my eye on a U50 but I think it is a few years old, not Overland, perhaps Trains Inc or Alco. Anybody got good or bad experieinecs with one of these?
As mentioned above, havn't seen a plastic U50 so looking at going down the Brass route, wouldn't mind one of those blaster turbines but the price is too much for me!
Can anyone tell me the best way to paint a brass locomotive, i.e preperation to remove tarnish and if an undercoat is a must, etc?
For me its the durablity of early brass models, to me thats late 50's thru the early 70's PFM/United, Tenshodo models. When I pick up my PFM Berkshire, it doesnt feel fragile like the Bachmann or BLI/MTH steamers I have had or worked on for others. If the motor or gear box fails, which seldom happens on the better older models, its one call to NWSL for a new gearbox and can motor. I suspect when I reach my time to leave this lifetime, the brass will still be running, still be collected and operated, as for the newer plastic/diecast/hybrid stuff, who knows, who knows if the drives will last, if the diecast wont start to get brittle and fall appart like many of the early diecast models. These new ones are made in China or other overseas locations, we dont know how good thier diecasting process is. But brass is brass, it can be resoldered, repaired and made to operate better than any plastic/diecast/hybrid train I have seen yet, they are getting close. Brass, espicaly older steam and diesel are more for the hobbiest that can tinker, tune and enjoys such busy work. I probably pull the shell and clean and tune my brass steamers 1-2 times a year, usualy before an open house at the local club or before I take them to a layout to be operated. The work and resulting smooth running model is a souce of pride and joy when others compliment how nice the model operates, then realize its a brass model from years back, usualy older than they are, heck most of my models are older than I am! New brass is the bane of the deep pocketbooks due to very limited runs, usualy less than 50, some less than 20 for one variation. PFM used to do runs in the hundreds with total production of several runs exceeding 1000-2000 models for several popular engines. They were built to run and by doing such large runs of the NKP Berkshire, ATSF 2-8-0, Shays ect, they kept the cost within reach of many modelers of the time. Cheers Mike
LHS mechanic and geniune train and antique garden tractor nut case!
Vincent
Wants: 1. high-quality, sound equipped, SD40-2s, C636s, C30-7s, and F-units in BN. As for ones that don't cost an arm and a leg, that's out of the question....
2. An end to the limited-production and other crap that makes models harder to get and more expensive.
7j43kCB&Q Modeler The closest anyone come to a G.N engine in plastic was Rivarossi's USRA heavy mikado,even then it's vanderbilt tender was a C&O longhaul unit I replaced that with a brass swapmeet find though I really think its a U.P medium tender.....still think it looks better than the original tho' lol I think Broadway Limited makes a quite credible GN O-3, and with the proper tender. It's done as an early version before the GN put the air pumps on the front. Ed
CB&Q Modeler The closest anyone come to a G.N engine in plastic was Rivarossi's USRA heavy mikado,even then it's vanderbilt tender was a C&O longhaul unit I replaced that with a brass swapmeet find though I really think its a U.P medium tender.....still think it looks better than the original tho' lol
The closest anyone come to a G.N engine in plastic was Rivarossi's USRA heavy mikado,even then it's vanderbilt tender was a C&O longhaul unit I replaced that with a brass swapmeet find though I really think its a U.P medium tender.....still think it looks better than the original tho' lol
Ed
This is true forgot that one but the BLI loco has hardly been out a year yet where as I bought this one in 1985,there also have been several different USRA mikes produced that could be detailed in either early or late 03s.Other than these theres never been any GN.engine done in plastic.
On the other hand UP. 4-6-6-4s & 4-8-8-4s have been done ad nauseum.
One big point for brass in my book is permanance. Its brass!. good for a thousand years.
On the subject of painted rail, I spray paint the track before I lay it with rattle cans. I wipe each section of rail heads off right away after spraying, with thinner. Look closely and make sure the center of the rail is clean too. Sometimes a quick wipe will only get the edges. Mask the points like the man says. Only problem is that any section you curve will have to be touched up , as the rail slides and exposes unpainted portions. Also you need to clean away the paint where rail joiners contact and anywhwere you want to solder. A little bit of a pain but worth the good looking track. BILL
CB&Q ModelerThe closest anyone come to a G.N engine in plastic was Rivarossi's USRA heavy mikado,even then it's vanderbilt tender was a C&O longhaul unit I replaced that with a brass swapmeet find though I really think its a U.P medium tender.....still think it looks better than the original tho' lol Â
The closest anyone come to a G.N engine in plastic was Rivarossi's USRA heavy mikado,even then it's vanderbilt tender was a C&O longhaul unit I replaced that with a brass swapmeet find though I really think its a U.P medium tender.....still think it looks better than the original tho' lol
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NYC Buchanan racer as run by the East New York, with only minor piping changes. And, Kemtron spoked pilot wheels. Gem model cost me $49.50 c.1969. Not available in plastic.
1. 1950;
2. "Zulu";
3. EM-1;
4. "Big Emma";
5. AC-9;
6. GS-2/GS-6/GS-64-77/"Big Apple";
7. MP's 4-8-4s rebuilt from their 63" drivered Berkshires;
8. R-67B (Coal)/R-67B (Oil);
9. H/H-1 (Coal)/H/H-1 (Oil).
Look at this, will ya'! I've taken this topic and turned it into a wish list!
If you want any of these things you gotta get'em in brass.
From the far, far reaches of the wild, wild west I am: rtpoteet
CZ:
Thanks. I like those lokies a lot. They're older (1960-70) brass, but they run smooth and well, and the detail, if not up to current brass models, is still as good if not better than current plastic.
Just as an aside to how 'forgiving' brass is to work with, the middle photo--the Akane Yellowstone--was bought at a train show in Roseville a couple of years ago for literally a 'song', since it was in pieces. A real junker--but those Akane drive trains are absolutely INDESTRUCTABLE, thank heaven. Took me about 6 months, but I got it up and running and it's now a happy member of my articulated 'fleet', hauling anything you want to put behind it, LOL. It's a very sweet runner.
rjake:
I have no problems with electrical conductivity on painted rail. I use several shades of brown, black and gray to paint the rails (rattle cans) and paint very small sections at a time, wiping the tops of the rails immediately with alcohol. Any left-over paint will come up very quickly with a Brite Boy or masonite block. Just make sure that you do the rail in small (1-2 foot sections) at a time. And mask the frogs and points on the turnouts while you're spraying. I usually go back and brush-paint those parts, though as you can see in the photos, I still have a few turnouts to finish.
As I said, I've had no problems with conductivity, but then I run straight DC. I don't know if running DCC has a different impact on conductivity, perhaps some DCC modelers will chime in on this point.
Thanks for the comments, BTW. I appreciate them.
twhiteAnd to further answer the question "Why Brass"-- I can't get this in plastic: And believe me, I wouldn't be enjoying the hobby nearly as much. Tom
And to further answer the question "Why Brass"--
I can't get this in plastic:
And believe me, I wouldn't be enjoying the hobby nearly as much.
Very nice. They just don't make them in plastic.
Tom, great pics. Nice ballasting and weathering job too. But doesn't painting the rail cause problems for operations? I tried painting the sides of my rails, but it ended in disaster with engines constantly stalling over parts of the track due to the paint I suppose. I even sanded down any paint that got on the top, but no luck. Are you not supposed to paint the inside rail?
How do you avoid all of these electrical complications, I take it your trains run smoothly, no stalling over painted rails?
Or this:
Or, for that matter, this:
NYC
Your point is well taken with the BLI Hybrid's. I have those also but they need additional detail like the electrical conduit and other smaller piping details. The whole concept of the brass hybrid was to cut the cost of detail which takes time. They are certainly well worth the money that they cost and detail can be added if you choose to spend some time working on the model. They are about the same price as higher plastic models and the fidelity has been very good overall.
Detail in plastic is certainly possible, but it is fragile at best and can be damaged if not handled carefully. The plastic models have made great advances in detail compared to plastic models available twenty years ago. The die cast Big Boys from PCM and then BLI are actually very nice overall. I have those and have added brass detail to some of those. They run better than most brass and are much less money so they are a bargain.
A good example is the NKP Berkshire. It was available in a plastic non running model for the last forty years or so and PFM offered their early brass version and Rivarossi made a running model. All of these were fairly low level on detail but I had all three versions. After the P2K version came out and fixed the driver problem, I purchase some of those with sound and they have great detail. I also purchased the Division Point NKP model and some of the PSC models. The last run P2K does hold its own with the PSC brass version and is acceptable for detail overall. The older PFM models are not so great in detail, but will probably run forever with their great gear box.
The price of new brass today makes all of us take a look at anything that is available in plastic or die cast metal. This is a great hobby and we should all have fun and enjoy the experience.
The bottom line is some models are not available except in brass.
These are pictures of two of the BLI hybrids with no additional work or detail added. The UP marker lights need to be corrected but overall, they are nice and run well.
I agree with everyone else -if you model steam you're probably going to want brass because unless your road used lots of USRA engines, the steamers would be unique to that particular road. Even with the increase of 'never before done in plastic' models, there will still be diesels that won't get done (think Lima switchers, GE U50's, and the one-of-a-kind GM&O turret cab).
As for brass rolling stock, cabooses suffer from the same malady as steam locos- every road had their own design. Plus I sincerely doubt that anyone will ever come out with a Schnabel car or any other large capacity, 'one-of-a-kind' flatcar or center-well flarcar in plastic. And while plastic passenger cars are, indeed, getting better and more railroad specific, there will still be cars that won't get done- once again many were one-of-a-kind and for a specific train that didn't have the 'glamour' of trains like the Empire Builder, the Twentieth Century Limitied, or the Daylight.
So yes, there is still a need for brass.
Example of small brass. This one happens to be stuffed with dcc and sound.
Dcc too, no sound.
And while this model happens to be a Bachmann, I thought I'd show some coal since it was mentioned.
I'm of the buy 'em and rebuild 'em school most of the time. To me they're like fixing an old Chevy, learn the basics and you're pretty much set. I also buy 'em rebuilt when I see one I can't resist. They all have to eventually have DCC though.
NYCentral1Ok, obviously that is a beautiful locomotive, and the detail is excellent. But my question would be: Isn't that level of detail possible in plastic/hybrid locos but manufacturers don't do it because of cost or time, or is it that brass is the only material capable of achieving that detail? If it is possible in plastic, then why wouldn't say BLIs Hybrid engines be able to have a similar level of detail as an all brass engine?
It is possible in plastic, but it would be extremely fragile, which could create some pretty big problems with shipping (scale thickness plastic is about 1000x more fragile than scale thickness brass). I suppose the large main parts (like the boiler) could be plastic while the rest is brass, zinc, steel, etc., but that would make it quite a bit more expensive than what it already is.
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CAZEPHYR Actually, a picture is worth a thousand words. CZ
Actually, a picture is worth a thousand words.
Ok, obviously that is a beautiful locomotive, and the detail is excellent. But my question would be: Isn't that level of detail possible in plastic/hybrid locos but manufacturers don't do it because of cost or time, or is it that brass is the only material capable of achieving that detail? If it is possible in plastic, then why wouldn't say BLIs Hybrid engines be able to have a similar level of detail as an all brass engine?
CB&Q
That GN 2-10-2 is one of my favorite GN locomotives and no makes makes them in plastic or die cast.
The SP&S as you know is the extension of the NP to Portland and this is the Z8/
No one makes the NP models except in brass.