My LHS tells me to stay away from brass due to extremely high cost, considerable lack of repair service, old motors, etc. They tell me basically that brass is becoming obsolete (their words, not mine), although they still stock some occasionally, but not like they used to 15 yrs ago.
I was wondering, with the availability and the accessible qualities of BLI engines that come with sound, dcc, and modern motors, why choose brass? What are the advantages or disadvantages, or are they solely for collecting purposes?
And how do you feel about brass hybrids?
And with companies like Walthers releasing high quality plastic passenger cars, is brass rolling stock now considered unnecessary?
I'm asking these questions because I have always had an interest in brass engines, but don't know enough about them to make the plunge. I also have a lack of painting skills, so would prefer to buy a model that is already factory painted or custom painted.
rjake:
You're probably going to get quite a few answers on this one--it's come up before.
I can only tell you from my own personal perspective. I happen to model a steam-era railroad (Rio Grande) that is NOT represented to any degree by current production plastic models. Now I could purchase locos from BLI or Spectrum and simply repaint them and slap Rio Grande decals on them, but would I have a representative fleet of actual Rio Grande models?
Nope.
So my only answer, at least 95% of the time is brass imports, of which many Rio Grande prototypes exist. Which means, of course, painting them after I've 'tinkered' with the mechanism to get them running smoothly.
I frankly don't quite understand the attitude of your LHS as regards brass, because it can be made to run just as smoothly as any current models (and sometimes with a lot less trouble). However, if your LHS is pretty much devoted to selling DCC ready model power, then he has a relatively good argument. I've heard horror stories of converting DC brass to DCC because of the limited wheel pickup. But then, I've also heard of DC brass converting to DCC without any problems. It's all pretty much an 'individual' thing. For myself, I'm strictly DC, so getting my brass to run smoothly is usually no problem.
But the main reason I have brass is, as I have stated above: It's the only way I can get accurate models of Rio Grande standard-gauge steam power.
Brass isn't for everyone. And the 'collector's market for brass seems to be slowing down a lot--I see more and more brass locos from collections coming onto the consignment market these days, and at really quite reasonable prices, also. So for those of us who actually "NEED" that particular brass loco, it can be got at far less than it used to be.
A lot of New brass locos from importers like PSC and Division Point and Sunset seems to be coming onto the market pre-painted, and in some cases either with DCC or DCC-ready, with vastly improved drive systems and sound.
But if you're modeling a railroad prototype that is relatively well represented by current plastic models, I, for one, can't see much of a reason to go with brass (except for heft, detail, longevity and the fact that you don't need a degree in Electronics to repair anything that goes wrong, LOL!).
Just some of my thoughts on the matter. You'll probably get a whole plethora of opinions. This subject, when it comes up, always seems to be able to generate an interesting discussion (and set of arguments pro and con).
Tom
Tom View my layout photos! http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm310/TWhite-014/Rio%20Grande%20Yuba%20River%20Sub One can NEVER have too many Articulateds!
And because even $500 plastic and hybrid models can't compare to the detailing on brass costing $1200 new, $500-800 used if it is a highly prized edition. Or some still costing $1800 used that are even more highly prized.
Someone like CAZEPHYR will pop in and explain it in more depth. He is a die-hard engine curer who loves brass. He also purchases quality plastic and diecast engines if they have good tooling and such.
-Crandell
I was a long time brass fan and have spent more money than I can remember on Steamers and N&W Diesels. With the rise of high quality plastic in the 1990's I began ebaying most of the brass though and am hanging on to only a few today.
So why brass in 2009? if you are really rich is one good reason. If you model and need rare or unique units is another. But for a good NS SD60 Athearn makes one that fits the need.
Added all up and the brass market is 10% of what it was not that long ago.
Andy
I have a good number of brass locomotives and have converted a number to DCC. I have not purchased any of the new brass because I can't afford it anymore. I do keep a good lookout for engines that I need on E-Bay or used locomotive dealers for my collection of running brass locomotives. Also there are a number of them that will never be produced in plastic or have railroad specific details which have never been offered by the manufacturers of plastic steamers or diesels.
I personally feel that a good running, weighted brass locomotive will outlive, outrun and outpull any of the current plastic locomotives. My WP 2-8-2 with the original motor ran for two 8 hour sessions at the model railroad club I used to belong to without any problems hauling a 15 car train (passing track capacity is all that limits this locomotive, it has hauled 64 cars up a 2% uncompensated curving grade). This locomotive took 3rd place in the 1976 NMRA locomotive performance contest at Denver and is still running today, I don't think any of the BLI products will be running after that length of time.
Regards
Rick
Rule 1: This is my railroad.
Rule 2: I make the rules.
Rule 3: Illuminating discussion of prototype history, equipment and operating practices is always welcome, but in the event of visitor-perceived anacronisms, detail descrepancies or operating errors, consult RULE 1!
Like others have said, it's often the only way to get the correct representaion of a model you want. In most cases (even today), it also has a slightly or much higher level of detail, which is also more specific. At this point, plastic diesel has pretty much caught up with brass, but plastic or die-cast metal steam still has a long way to go.
My LHS tells me to stay away from brass due to extremely high cost,
Only new or very rare brass has an extremely high cost. I got a fantastic Samhongsa PRR 4-4-0 for $180 about a year and a half ago (less than a Spectrum 4-4-0!), and it is by far my highest detailed, smoothest running steam engine. There have been many other deals out there just as good as that one.
considerable lack of repair service,
Many of the old brass companies are gone now, so that's understandable. It is a great way to learn how to fix things, though.
old motors,
There are many easy ways to replace those old motors, many of which don't cost an arm and a leg.
So, if you like brass, I say go for it!
_________________________________________________________________
There are many reasons why one prefers brass over plastic models, better workmanship, far better detailing overall quality or fit and finish of the model but the most attractive aspect is that brass engines are truely an investment. I have yet to see a high quality plastic model seel for more then it did brand new no matter how many bells and whistles it has. Where it's alost a given that good quality brass engines increase in value. Not that most of us plan on selling any of our collection of stuff but the option is nice to have knowing something you bought 20 years a go and enjoyed all that time has increased to a very handsome price.
Chief:
I don't buy brass, because I am on an incredibly low budget, but I do like pre-1930s classic steam. When I look at old MR ads, I turn verdegris with jealousy over the kinds of locos that were advertised by the brass importers - lots of small steam, older steam, unusual steam, and just-plain-interesting steam, along with the old standby stuff like USRA Mikes. When's the last time anybody thought of, say, a Beano 2-8-0?
The import RTR has certainly broadened its scope over the years, but it's still basically "all the stuff you remember from a book written by Brian Hollingsworth". You end up with a railroad that's pulling local freights with Northerns and doesn't own a 2-8-0...which is quite realistic for the end of steam, but that's such a depressing era for the Real Locomotive fans, you know? :D
In my case, it was either brass or forget it - since no one was building ANY Japanese-prototype steam with any other materials, except for the few I have (all 2-8-2s) with cast pot metal mainframes. I could probably replace my steam roster with more recent products - most of which are the same kits with can motors at 20 - 50 times the price (both inflation and the rate of exchange drive the difference.)
Since I'm a firm believer in the old mechanic's adage, If it ain't broke, don't fix it, and have no desire to get new things simply because they're new, my brass steam, brass catenary motors and cast metal diesels will soldier on until they die - or I do.
I do have some plastic steam - my nostalgia roster of selected US prototype locos, and some that I've kitbashed out of any resemblance to US prototype.
Chuck (Modeling Central Japan in September, 1964)
Here's another angle to consider. Battered, beat up, tarnished and neglected brass locos can be brought back to life. Resurrecting a noble old brass hog makes a great project for winter evenings. Most missing or broken parts can be supplied by Northwest Shortlines right down to gears and driver springs. After the mechanism is sound again, perhaps converted to a can motor, you prime and paint and apply decals and voila! she's back from the dead. It makes you feel good, kind of like taking in a stray cat or rescuing an abused dog. I don't think you can get that same sense of accomplishment from tinkering with a plastic engine.
Maybe for the deisel guys that hobby shop may be partially correct. There are a few diesel engines out there that are only available in brass (C636, SDP40 and SDP45s, etc).
But for the steam guys, brass may be the only way to go to get something accurate, unless you're a UP or PRR modeler.
Vincent
Wants: 1. high-quality, sound equipped, SD40-2s, C636s, C30-7s, and F-units in BN. As for ones that don't cost an arm and a leg, that's out of the question....
2. An end to the limited-production and other crap that makes models harder to get and more expensive.
In my case, I own 2 brass pieces an Sn2 Forney and an Sn2 parlor car. These are the only engines and passenger cars available in Sn2 that I am aware of.
Enjoy
Paul
Actually, Jim Valle said pretty much what I feel. I've collected brass for years, but since the advent of the 'net, it's been more than easy to scoop up all manner of brass basket cases.
Minor repairs to scratch built Phantoms are possible in the TC shops. Couple this with the availability of almost any part needed from NWSL and others, it is unlikely there will be any plastic on the TC system anytime soon.
Packer But for the steam guys, brass may be the only way to go to get something accurate, unless you're a UP or PRR modeler.
Thats what I suspected, luckily I model the PRR mostly, so I'm good. But what caught my attention today was a brass T1 duplex engine on ebay today up to about $900 so far. Its factory painted too, it looks great but compared to the BLI version, I can't see any difference in detailing.
I did notice however that brass locos come with no coal load in the tender, even the brass S1 I saw on display at Strasburg (I think it was Olympia/Gem ?) had no coal load. Why is this? My LHS did tell me to stay away from Gem brass models from the 70s, they told me they are of the worst quality, running wise.
I think that's because they detail the inside of the tender where the coal actually goes. On plastic locos I think it's just molded in with the rest of the tender.
selectorAnd because even $500 plastic and hybrid models can't compare to the detailing on brass costing $1200 new, $500-800 used if it is a highly prized edition. Or some still costing $1800 used that are even more highly prized. Someone like CAZEPHYR will pop in and explain it in more depth. He is a die-hard engine curer who loves brass. He also purchases quality plastic and diecast engines if they have good tooling and such. -Crandell
Actually, a picture is worth a thousand words.
CZ
Packer I think that's because they detail the inside of the tender where the coal actually goes. On plastic locos I think it's just molded in with the rest of the tender.
So with brass locos do modelers actually fill the tender with a substance mimicking coal? I saw a special on the History Channel entitled "Toy Trains", most of the program showed the history of Lionel and American Flyer, but about 5 minutes or so of the program was dedicated to the decline of O gauge and mentioned the smaller HO scale, while showing video of HO rolling stock actually receiving simulated coal on somebody's layout, it was pretty interesting. The footage taken was from the 60's and 70's I think. I had no idea that some HO modelers actually filled up their cars with actual materials, I suppose that adds to the realism, but I've only seen it done on that televsion special from the past. Pretty cool.
In answer to the 'coal load' question, some brass tenders come with the bunker fully detailed down to the bottom, other tenders simply have a plate below the tender sides. Generally, the brass modeler who is actually RUNNING his models will carve a small block of balsa or foam, paint it, glue scale coal to it and insert it into the tender bunker. That way it's up to the modeler as to whether he wants to model a full load, a half-load, or one that's really ready to be backed up under the coaling tower.
I have both with my models. The last model I bought new, a PSC Rio Grande 2-10-2, had a removable coal load already installed in the tender, since the coal bunker was detailed right down to the screw that moves the coal into the firebox. So I had my choice--I could either run it with the coal load or display it to show the detail of the coal bunker itself.
Naturally, I choose to run this locomotive (and it ran superbly right out of the box), so the coal load stays in.
CAZEPHYR selector And because even $500 plastic and hybrid models can't compare to the detailing on brass costing $1200 new, $500-800 used if it is a highly prized edition. Or some still costing $1800 used that are even more highly prized. Someone like CAZEPHYR will pop in and explain it in more depth. He is a die-hard engine curer who loves brass. He also purchases quality plastic and diecast engines if they have good tooling and such. -Crandell Actually, a picture is worth a thousand words. CZ
selector And because even $500 plastic and hybrid models can't compare to the detailing on brass costing $1200 new, $500-800 used if it is a highly prized edition. Or some still costing $1800 used that are even more highly prized. Someone like CAZEPHYR will pop in and explain it in more depth. He is a die-hard engine curer who loves brass. He also purchases quality plastic and diecast engines if they have good tooling and such. -Crandell
CZ:
Amen!
Thanks
The detail can be seen in the pictures and that is why I purchase quality brass.
That pic is amazing.
And Tom, thanks for the explanation. Thanks to everyone else as well for their input.
Why Brass?
If your a Great Northern modeler like me this is why
CB&Q
That GN 2-10-2 is one of my favorite GN locomotives and no makes makes them in plastic or die cast.
The SP&S as you know is the extension of the NP to Portland and this is the Z8/
No one makes the NP models except in brass.
CAZEPHYR Actually, a picture is worth a thousand words. CZ
Ok, obviously that is a beautiful locomotive, and the detail is excellent. But my question would be: Isn't that level of detail possible in plastic/hybrid locos but manufacturers don't do it because of cost or time, or is it that brass is the only material capable of achieving that detail? If it is possible in plastic, then why wouldn't say BLIs Hybrid engines be able to have a similar level of detail as an all brass engine?
NYCentral1Ok, obviously that is a beautiful locomotive, and the detail is excellent. But my question would be: Isn't that level of detail possible in plastic/hybrid locos but manufacturers don't do it because of cost or time, or is it that brass is the only material capable of achieving that detail? If it is possible in plastic, then why wouldn't say BLIs Hybrid engines be able to have a similar level of detail as an all brass engine?
It is possible in plastic, but it would be extremely fragile, which could create some pretty big problems with shipping (scale thickness plastic is about 1000x more fragile than scale thickness brass). I suppose the large main parts (like the boiler) could be plastic while the rest is brass, zinc, steel, etc., but that would make it quite a bit more expensive than what it already is.
Example of small brass. This one happens to be stuffed with dcc and sound.
Dcc too, no sound.
And while this model happens to be a Bachmann, I thought I'd show some coal since it was mentioned.
I'm of the buy 'em and rebuild 'em school most of the time. To me they're like fixing an old Chevy, learn the basics and you're pretty much set. I also buy 'em rebuilt when I see one I can't resist. They all have to eventually have DCC though.
San Dimas Southern slideshow
I agree with everyone else -if you model steam you're probably going to want brass because unless your road used lots of USRA engines, the steamers would be unique to that particular road. Even with the increase of 'never before done in plastic' models, there will still be diesels that won't get done (think Lima switchers, GE U50's, and the one-of-a-kind GM&O turret cab).
As for brass rolling stock, cabooses suffer from the same malady as steam locos- every road had their own design. Plus I sincerely doubt that anyone will ever come out with a Schnabel car or any other large capacity, 'one-of-a-kind' flatcar or center-well flarcar in plastic. And while plastic passenger cars are, indeed, getting better and more railroad specific, there will still be cars that won't get done- once again many were one-of-a-kind and for a specific train that didn't have the 'glamour' of trains like the Empire Builder, the Twentieth Century Limitied, or the Daylight.
So yes, there is still a need for brass.
NYC
Your point is well taken with the BLI Hybrid's. I have those also but they need additional detail like the electrical conduit and other smaller piping details. The whole concept of the brass hybrid was to cut the cost of detail which takes time. They are certainly well worth the money that they cost and detail can be added if you choose to spend some time working on the model. They are about the same price as higher plastic models and the fidelity has been very good overall.
Detail in plastic is certainly possible, but it is fragile at best and can be damaged if not handled carefully. The plastic models have made great advances in detail compared to plastic models available twenty years ago. The die cast Big Boys from PCM and then BLI are actually very nice overall. I have those and have added brass detail to some of those. They run better than most brass and are much less money so they are a bargain.
A good example is the NKP Berkshire. It was available in a plastic non running model for the last forty years or so and PFM offered their early brass version and Rivarossi made a running model. All of these were fairly low level on detail but I had all three versions. After the P2K version came out and fixed the driver problem, I purchase some of those with sound and they have great detail. I also purchased the Division Point NKP model and some of the PSC models. The last run P2K does hold its own with the PSC brass version and is acceptable for detail overall. The older PFM models are not so great in detail, but will probably run forever with their great gear box.
The price of new brass today makes all of us take a look at anything that is available in plastic or die cast metal. This is a great hobby and we should all have fun and enjoy the experience.
The bottom line is some models are not available except in brass.
These are pictures of two of the BLI hybrids with no additional work or detail added. The UP marker lights need to be corrected but overall, they are nice and run well.
The closest anyone come to a G.N engine in plastic was Rivarossi's USRA heavy mikado,even then it's vanderbilt tender was a C&O longhaul unit I replaced that with a brass swapmeet find though I really think its a U.P medium tender.....still think it looks better than the original tho' lol
And to further answer the question "Why Brass"--
I can't get this in plastic:
Or this:
Or, for that matter, this:
And believe me, I wouldn't be enjoying the hobby nearly as much.